Gay Science Fiction discussion
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*closed* New Sub-Categories Development
I'm sorry Meghan, I may have misinterpreted you. When you said,"I'm getting a bit nervous about the push on paranormal chars in Sci Fi books."
Did you mean you think there are too many showing up in sf, or did you mean that my eschewing them was being too exclusive? I took it as the second (though now I think I might have been wrong), so if my response seems odd to you, that's why.
If you meant the first, then I think we are exactly on the same page.
Mod
If you disregard the "paranormal" aspect, is the book Sci Fi? For instance, Sunrise would be my case for a paranormal scifi series. Yes there is magic, vampires, what have you, BUT there is substantial highly advanced technology in use as well. Does that make sense?
-Meghan
Ugh, sorry, one more addendum. Don't know where this fits in to the argument, but doesn't have to be that sci/tech needs to fit in integrally. Scifi also does allow for examinations that are pretty purely social/cultural without direct mention of sci or tech. E.g., 1984.
Mod
Dear Members, we are doing our best to categorize all of the books on our new sub-shelves but we still need your help and would like your input when you have questions. Please used these guidelines for assigning books to the proper sub-shelves. Thank you so much!
-The Moderators (Sean, Charming, Meghan)
Added new note to members.
---- Authors: please make sure your books are on the correct shelves in our group bookshelf. Go to the "bookshelf" (upper right). Sort by authors and find your books. Click “edit”, over on the right of the page. Click "choose shelves" and check each shelf that is appropriate for that book. Note that bookshelves are not exclusive; you may choose more than one based on major themes in your book.
Separated out note to authors.
Aliens – stories which are primarily about contact with an alien culture, either through space exploration or invasion.
Cyber-genetic-mods – stories in which important characters (humans or aliens) have undergone cybernetic or genetic modification.
Dystopian – stories in which a dystopian (oppressive/creepy) society features prominently. Can include near-future Earth or other planets.
Gay lit scifi – sci-fi that includes gay characters and themes, but is not primarily a romance (though it may have romantic elements). Similar to the distinction between gay lit and M/M romance. Condensed wording.
Group author – bookshelf for books by authors who are a member of this group. Modified subject/verb tense.
Realistic scifi – stories with classic sci-fi themes that obey the laws of physics and reality, as we know them. These stories should not only be possible but plausible, and the scientific realism should be important to the work. For example, fantastic creatures (elves, shifters, vampires, ghosts, zombies) would not go in this category, even if they are explained scientifically. Condensed wording.
MMF - menage with both genders in which the female plays a small role. Please do not post MFM in this group. (In mfm, the men focus mostly on the female, and is not primarily gay science fiction).
Non-erotic M/M – sci-fi stories with romance between main characters, but not sexually explicit. Word-smithing. No real change.
Paranormal scifi - this is intended to cover works that are science fiction, but are slanted towards paranormal themes or include paranormal elements. An example is Hemovore by Jordan Castillo Price, which is about a virus that causes mutations that resemble vampirism. Tried to clarify and simplify wording.
Post-apocalyptic – stories that examine a world (usually Earth) after some cataclysmic event. That event has usually destroyed society as we know it. Most (not all) post-apocalyptic stories include dystopian elements. Spelling and wording.
Removal candidate – this group is for gay science fiction only. If a book appears to be a non-science based paranormal or time travel, for example, it doesn't belong on our group shelves. Books that appear not to be science fiction will be placed on this shelf to give group members a chance to discuss the merits of keeping or removing said books. Members should feel free to speak up. If more than some N number of people feel strongly about removing a book, then we should really consider keeping it.
Romance - works which emphasize the romantic relationship between the gay main characters.
Space opera - works that take place primarily in space and include impressive technology and a sweeping dramatic story.
Time travel – works in which the ability to travel to different times is scientifically based rather than magical.
To be determined - these are works that need to be shelved as soon as possible. Anyone can shelve a book if they have read it. Let's encourage people to take some responsibility! I know I haven’t read even half of the books on the group shelf.
Young adult - works with young adult characters with little sex and no explicit sexual scenes. Wanted wording to be fairly specific for the Young Adult shelf.
Mod
As in social science and social engineering... Yes?
mm_reads wrote: "Oco wrote: "Ugh, sorry, one more addendum. Don't know where this fits in to the argument, but doesn't have to be that sci/tech needs to fit in integrally. Scifi also does allow for examinations tha..."*lol* Sure. :) Still reading your changes. Look great to me so far.
Sounds great!Only comment on this:
Removal candidate – this group is for gay science fiction only. If a book appears to be...
I had changed 'this' group to 'our' group, which I agree sounds odd, but this is why: When I first read the sentence, my brain substituted 'shelf' into 'group' (since all the other wording is about shelves). Took me a couple re-reads to puzzle out why Charming was saying that the removals were only for gay fiction. See the potential awkwardness? Maybe rearrange the entire sentence? ETA: maybe delete that first sentence? Is it necessary?
Mod
Oops! Spotted a couple of spelling errors.
Somehow lost part of my change here:
Dystopian – stories in which a dystopian (oppressive/creepy/fatally flawed) society features prominently. Can include near-future Earth or other planets.
Mod
Only comment on this:
Removal candidate – this group is for gay science fiction only. If a book appears to be...
I had changed 'this' group to 'our' group, which I agree sounds odd,..."
Yes, I see! How about
Removal candidate – for books that probably do not meet the requirements of our group, Gay Science Fiction. If a book appears to be a non-science-based paranormal or time travel story, for example, it doesn't belong on our group shelves. Books that appear not to be science fiction will be placed on this shelf to give group members a chance to discuss the merits of keeping or removing said books.
Mod
Thinking about this more, I think "dystopian" covers these kinds of books.
Not if it's a book about first contact. Or about interspecies conflict. Or about a colony trying to make it on a new planet. In all these cases, the scitech can take a back seat and even be nearly invisible, but it is still scifi.
Mod
A general thought: We wanted to add shelves so people can find books they want to read. Stuff will inevitably be mis-shelved, so we shouldn't (IMO) get too upset with sloppiness.
One change I'd suggest (because I bet there are FFM stories out there):
MMF/menage: menage with both genders in which the same-sex relationship is the main focus. Please do not post MFM in this group. (In MFM, the focus is on the men's relationship to the woman and not to each other).
Also, I am not sure I agree that "Aliens" should be primarily about contact with alien culture. I'd like to include stories where one or a few aliens show up as well.
I'd also remove this: "If more than some N number of people feel strongly about removing a book, then we should really consider keeping it." It is more about the validity of the argument than a vote. In any case, anyone can add books, so we aren't going to be able to control it except by persuasion.
The latest definition of "Cyber-genetic-mods" removes some cyberpunk from the definition, but I think dystopian captures most of it more logically, so I think it's fine.
Mod
Hmmm... Then we could start the bookshelf definitions out as a post to group authors maybe? Speaking of which we need to do some discussion folder creation and thread organizing in prep for (I hope) various types of book discussions (specific books, sci-fi topics maybe based on the bookshelf categories, the removal and tbd shelves), a folder for author interviews, maybe a folder for moderator issues- requests & problems for one.
Those are just some ideas to start
Mod
So back to your suggestions:
MMF: so do you mean that this should include FFM? Your written def. says same-sex which is gender neutral. Or do mean as in "focuses on the gay couple and the woman plays a side role"? If more like the 2nd one, I'm totally for it.
aliens: I agree with you Charming. Oco, were you trying to avoid the "furry creatures on alien planet sex-mating" storyline with no real societal statement or heavy technology-use? Or something else?
my "for some N" comment: That was just an opinion from me, not something we necessarily write down in the FAQ, since that number might possibly vary on the book. My primary goal is that we shouldn't't keep something if it's only a single person who wants it in. Conversely, if it's only 1 person who wants it out, we shouldn't chuck it.
cyber/genetic mods: I tried to broaden the 2nd edited definition a bit. I'm trying to see how it rules out some cyberpunk. It's not appearing to me. Can you give an example?
Mod
No one, really. Sean owns the group, so he can remove members or make the bookshelves editable by only himself and the moderators. But absent those heavy-handed tactics, we are only advising and persuading here.
Mod
Hi Zeke, hopefully we could have a discussion. As long as we could achieve consensus on it being sci-fi, at the very least it would still be on our group shelf. We could find a place for it on a different sub-shelf if we had to. Do you think that would work?
Meghan
Mod
Earlier you asked a question about final say so. People will get a chance to discuss the categories of books in contention. The moderators will have final, final say but follow the majority for sure. Like I said we're still working out the details.
-Meghan
Charming wrote: "Also, I am not sure I agree that "Aliens" should be primarily about contact with alien culture. I'd like to include stories where one or a few aliens show up as well." The omission was unintentional; I agree.
The latest definition of "Cyber-genetic-mods" removes some cyberpunk from the definition, but I think dystopian captures most of it more logically, so I think it's fine.
I'll bet that was unintentional, too. I seem to remember mostly trying to streamline the wording, not change the definition, so I apologize. :)
Meghan said, "cyber/genetic mods: ... I'm trying to see how it rules out some cyberpunk. It's not appearing to me. Can you give an example?"Yeah. I'm not seeing it either, Charming, though I'm not arguing. But maybe if you point out what's missing it can be fixed. Do you just mean that cyberpunk doesn't require human mod (all cyberpunk I've read does include some aspect of this, but then, it isn't a genre I've read widely)?
Mod
I was thinking that, but I realize that I am not sure if this group includes F/F or not. "Gay" can go either way these days. Sean?
cyber/genetic mods: I tried to broaden the 2nd edited definition a bit. I'm trying to see how it rules out some cyberpunk. It's not appearing to me. Can you give an example?
I think that cyberpunk does not require cybernetic modifications (though I can't think of an example)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyberpunk. But in any case a dystopian society is almost de rigueur, so they will fit in either or both.
You've convinced me that we should either reword cyberpunk a bit or fold it entirely into dystopian. Because after having read the wiki, I'm thinking 'duh', nobody would call the Terminator cyberpunk.cyberpunk -- These stories are usually dystopic accounts of a relatively near future in which high-tech (especially in computers and AI) exists within a hard-living reality.
Shit. I don't really like it, but it was fun trying to distill it into a sentence. Ideas?
Mod
(1) go to the group bookshelf
(2) in the box under "add books" (upper left) type enough to bring up your book (e.g. title if it is unusual, title plus part of author name if not)
(3) if the book is greyed out, it is on the group bookshelf. Click Choose to add or change sub-shelves.
(4) if the book is not greyed out, click Add to Group, and, again, choose sub-shelves.
There are some other things you can add in the pop-up menu. "Why this book" adds a note in the listing. See First Sharing (Fallon Mates, #5) for example. If we do group reads at some point you can set that up as well.
Mod
I think the above sums up the confusion. Those are two separate categories. We should probably make up a new subshelf.
Cyber/genetic mods is more about modifying the human body artificially. I don't know if there is an official category name for that in sci-fi, so that's what I called it. But a lot of stories deal with this. Our shelf already has a number of books on it.
Cyberpunk is definitely a different category since it focuses a LOT more on computer programming/hacking and "living in the machine". Some classics are Neuromancer and Snow Crash. Some might consider 2001: A Space Odyssey proto-cyberpunk. The movie "Hackers, (1995)" is an example of cyberpunk with no modifications.
Mod
Mod
Yeah we're just about done! Seems like we have just a couple of clarifications left. 1) Shall we add a cyberpunk shelf, separate from the cybernetic-genetic-mods shelf? If so how shall we define it? My definitions tend to come out sounding pompous. I swear it's not how I speak at all. That's the last thing to finish, I think.
I've got a document already set up where I can compile our final definitions, extract the side comments, and add the procedures you wrote out, Charming.
And the the plan is to address it to the group authors first, then release it to the general group? How long should we give before a general release?
Mod
Thanks for maintaining the document. Yeah, let's have the authors test drive it for us, and see how it goes. Maybe give them a week or two?
I want to invite more authors and other members, but I am going to wait until we are a bit more organized - and I think it is going really well.
Mod
Mod
Hi Zeke. I don't buy that you are dumb at all.
(1) and (2) Each book should appear on as many sub-shelves as appropriate. So Solid Core of Alpha would be on romance and aliens. I don't believe she is a member of this group though.
(3) We are trying to strike a balance between enough shelves and too many shelves. So we tried to identify shelves that would help people find the kind of books they are looking for. Our thought (maybe incorrect) is that a lot of readers would like to find non-explicit (M/M scifi) romances, and they are relatively hard to find. Most romances are explicit, so I'm not sure we need a shelf for that. However, this process is subject to ongoing revision, so please do advocate for shelves you want to see.
sorry, I get little bits of time here and there. I was actually wondering if we might be getting too many shelves. I.e., is there a single example of cyberpunk gay romance? So I'm good with let other cats cover for that as appropriate. Frankly, even for cyber-genetic mods, that doesn't need to be a stand-alone any more than the presence of computers or robots does.The argument for cyberpunk being a category (imo) was simply that it often gets listed as a subcat of SF.
Zeke said: I like your subcategories but have questions since I am as dumb as I look.
Well here I am thinking that you are having a laugh on us because we don't know what you look like. :) So I've decided you look like a genius, and you are having a laugh at our expense. :)
We are using a lot of jargon here, which, if one isn't familiar with the jargon it can be hard to keep up. Apologies, and you are good to just call us on it and ask questions. I'm really glad you are part of the discussion.
Mod
Mod
cyberpunk: I'm ok with adding 1 more shelf for this theme.
cybnetic-genetic-mods: a lot of books are on this shelf now, and I originally created the shelf because I was running across a large number of books with that theme. But I won't cry about it if you want it gone. :)
And I might as well put this out here now- there are a couple of other shelves I would like to see, for instance something about war and/or maybe something about action.
Should we set a maximum number of shelves? I feel like our group bookshelves should be meaningful enough to include more than tiny numbers (tiny = < 5?), but not so broad that we may as well just say "all". We'll probably want to combine small categories and refine any overly-large ones eventually.
-Meghan
Mod
There are two books in To-Be-Determined (TBD) for which I would like to assign shelves. ..."
Hmm... thinking ... Do you have any suggestions? I can put it in the "Discuss Books" folder. Or I can make a new folder to discuss categorizations, like TBD and removing and individual books going to appropriate shelves.
sorry I'm probably scarce for a day or two. Meghan, I think your thinking on the cyberpunk and cybergenetic is fine. To me 'action' is sort of space opera? Or do you mean else? But maybe not. Military scifi -- that's a pretty time-honored category is regular scifi, so it does seem to warrant a shelf if there are examples in here. Zeke, do those books really need discussion do you think, or is it just that you know what they are and we don't? Which are they?
Mod
There are two books in To-Be-Determined (TBD) for which I would like to assign shelves. ..."
I think you can just go ahead.
Mod
cyberpunk: I'm ok with adding 1 more shelf for this theme.
cybnetic-genetic-mods: a lot of books are on this shelf now,..."
It all sounds fine to me. If there are a lot of books on a shelf that is a good argument for that shelf.
Mod
I posted the beta version of our rules for shelving to the group authors, but really it will apply to everyone.
You can be a beta tester for us too! After you read through it, let us know if you still have questions.
Thanks!
Meghan
I looked over the shelves and have just one suggestion. If we are going to have Space Opera (soft SF) whould we not also have Hard Sci-Fi?And a question: Are we using Gay as Gay and Lesbian (as it was in my day) Or, should we have Gay SF and Lesbian SF?
Kernos wrote: "I looked over the shelves and have just one suggestion. If we are going to have Space Opera (soft SF) whould we not also have Hard Sci-Fi?And a question: Are we using Gay as Gay and Lesbian (as i..."
I gather that's what ended up being called 'realistic' scifi. I'm not against renaming it. Although I'm thinking that the definition up there should then also include that the scifi should be the central aspect to the story (not romance, e.g.).
Mod
I just renamed it to realistic-hard-scif. I think that is less confusing.
Mod
Sean, who owns the group, says this in the group description: "Please post M/M only themed books, though M/M/F is fine: Btw, lesbians already have a group on goodreads :)."
He might be open to persuasion, and I'd be fine adding lesbian works, but it is his call.
Mod
I just looked at your definitions in the other thread. Realistic is fine with me. What about Gay and Lesbian?
Mod
Mod
So basically I'm not opposed to a diversity shelf, but we need to have a clear definition.
Mod
Should I start a new folder or will a topic thread for each of them do? I'd like to move one the books out of the removal-candidate shelf but need a place to hold any discussion about it. Also, one book VN2 seems to have been removed from the group bookshelf entirely. I was wondering if that was an accident. That sort of comment needs a place to live too- I'm thinking in the same place as the removal discussion.
If we decide a topic thread will work, it seems like the "Discuss Books" folder would work. But a separate folder would keep any long discussions from getting mixed up between different books.
Mod
[bookcover..."
And I would agree with you! That's why we have to be clear about the definition and monitor the shelving. I think the theme of the story would have to be about racism, _classism_, or prejudice against some particular trait. So if our definition specifies theme vs the characters, would that work for you, Zeke?
Charming, can you clarify your suggestion for us?
Thanks!
Mod
Meghan (mm_reads) wrote: "We have an open issue for the removal and TBD shelves:Should I start a new folder or will a topic thread for each of them do? I'd like to move one the books out of the removal-candidate shelf but..."
I think maybe a single topic. If an entire folder is opened up, it will be as if each and every book needs a long discussion and it may never get done. How about a topic with a list of the books, and people can comment on those that they want to comment on. Specifically, those of us who placed them in the TBR shelf might want to say why. I placed a few there, and can.
For the record, I've not actually deleted any books from the shelf. Not intentionally, anyway.
Charming: "Let's table..."
That's probably wise, IMO. There are good arguments to be made in either direction. I think the main reason to have one would be if one or more members wanted to find them specifically, and we could have the discussion then, with such people as are directly impacted by the decision. At this point, there's no particular call for such a shelf.
Mod
Two comments per the discussion above. First: I made this group for the sole reason for people to find gay male homosexual related content science fiction books. I know people might like to add a bunch of additional things (like lesbian, diversity, etc) to the group...but when I started this group on Goodreads pretty much all those groups were already around. And I made one that wasn't: a gay male scifi group. Simple as that. I thought there was a need for a little more clarity. There was (and should still be) a gay women (or lesbian) scifi related group, also a main 'queer' scifi group (which includes both gay and lesbian) already on goodreads. Hence, I hope we don't start duplicating other groups people can join to get a more 'general' or broad genre. That would kinda go against why I start this group in the first place. So, my two cents is to make sure all the sub categories still fit in the overall theme of the group. Gay male (meaning homosexual) related science fiction.
Secondly: my thought is not to make a ton (like over 20) new sub cats since it might confuse new members more than help. I guess I'm not the type would likes to divide things too narrowly...as then I start to zone out with all the different choices ;) but maybe that's just me.
Ok, again thanks all for helping make this a better group for the members!
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Gay Science Fiction
Books mentioned in this topic
A Solid Core of Alpha (other topics)VN2 (other topics)
2001: A Space Odyssey (other topics)
Snow Crash (other topics)
Neuromancer (other topics)
More...
2. That sounds good. Although that's basically what most take 'hard' to mean, in a way that 'hard' label has a tendency to carry a value judgment that could keep it from staying 'clean'. So I'm all for labeling it 'realistic'. What do other's think?
3. I'd agree. I think that in a way, we all kind of get what the problem is and are trying to find a way to explain it using few enough words that people are likely to actually read and understand the distinction. We keep coming back to Hemovore as an example (I think because most of those of us involved have read it, but also because I think we can agree about it being damn good, thus divorcing perceived 'quality' from the discussion). So PLEASE know that I'm not making a case about Hemovore in particular. To me, that doesn't meet the criteria, because the sciexplanation of the problem is to a large extent irrelevant to the story. The scitech aspect of the story is not strongly integrated, but exists as a backdrop.
I use the frequent shorthand of 'paranormal creatures' because that is how this most often shows up -- finding themes that are popular within other genres and giving them life within a scifi type universe.
It's a conundrum. Don't want to leave out stuff that some enjoy, but I'm really concerned with preserving some of the integrity, if you'll forgive the word, of scifi, so that those who want that old classic definition don't get flooded with stuff they don't want to read. To me, if it more classically fits the genre of paranormal or horror or fantasy, there are plenty of groups for that, and I'm not clear on why there is a desire to call it scifi.