Brain Pain discussion

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Ulysses
Ulysses - Spine 2012
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Discussion - Week One - Ulysses - Episode 1, 2, & 3
A quick word about Stephen Dedalus…
Joyce introduced the character, Stephen Dedalus, in his novel A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man. The novel covers Stephen’s years in school, the political climate of Dublin during his youth, and his disenchantment and estrangement from the church. The novel ends shortly before Stephen leaves Dublin to explore Europe and experience the world outside Ireland.
In Ulysses, we find Stephen back in Dublin after his time abroad, a few short years older and just as estranged from God, Country, and Family as ever.
Ulysses begins with three episodes, referred to as ‘Part One – The Telemachiad’, which focus on Stephen. Joyce borrowed the basic structure (and more) of Homer’s Odyssey, whose opening books focus on Odysseus’ son, Telemachus. Stephen Dedalus, though not literally Leopold Bloom’s son, serves as a kind of surrogate son for Leopold, the “Odysseus” of Ulysses.
It is not necessary to read A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man before reading Ulysses, but a brief acquaintance with the character will help the reader understand why Stephen Dedalus is such a Gloomy Gus…
An overview of ‘A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man’ can be found on this wikipedia page:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Portra...
Joyce introduced the character, Stephen Dedalus, in his novel A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man. The novel covers Stephen’s years in school, the political climate of Dublin during his youth, and his disenchantment and estrangement from the church. The novel ends shortly before Stephen leaves Dublin to explore Europe and experience the world outside Ireland.
In Ulysses, we find Stephen back in Dublin after his time abroad, a few short years older and just as estranged from God, Country, and Family as ever.
Ulysses begins with three episodes, referred to as ‘Part One – The Telemachiad’, which focus on Stephen. Joyce borrowed the basic structure (and more) of Homer’s Odyssey, whose opening books focus on Odysseus’ son, Telemachus. Stephen Dedalus, though not literally Leopold Bloom’s son, serves as a kind of surrogate son for Leopold, the “Odysseus” of Ulysses.
It is not necessary to read A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man before reading Ulysses, but a brief acquaintance with the character will help the reader understand why Stephen Dedalus is such a Gloomy Gus…
An overview of ‘A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man’ can be found on this wikipedia page:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Portra...

Ellie wrote: "The schema is very helpful. Almost despite myself, I am liking some sections of this book so far (or, maybe I should say, some sections of the sections) for their rhythm. I don't know if I can make..."
Much like Proust, Ulysses is a perennial read. Although we officially scheduled 10 weeks, this discussion is likely to continue much longer.
Eat your Wheaties, do a few jumping jacks, and dive back in as soon as you can!
Also, peruse the Stuart Gilbert book. It's making a world of difference for me...
Much like Proust, Ulysses is a perennial read. Although we officially scheduled 10 weeks, this discussion is likely to continue much longer.
Eat your Wheaties, do a few jumping jacks, and dive back in as soon as you can!
Also, peruse the Stuart Gilbert book. It's making a world of difference for me...

And I will definitely check out the Gilbert.
In my extensive free time, of course. :(

So, as I was reading Episode 3, I tried to make the connections between Proteus the shape-shifting god in the odyssey and the corresponding episode. That's as far as I got in the odyssey so far, and correct me if I'm wrong.
The first connection I noticed was that the whole of Episode 3 took place by the sea, which Stephen noticed was constantly shifting, like Proteus.
The second connection, seemed to be more subtle. Stephen's thoughts were a jumbled mess, and they were also consistently changing form and shifting, like Proteus.
The last one I could find was Joyce use of stream-of-consciousness in this episode. It's not conventional style, but it is the technique, and stream f consciousness is the ever changing representation, in Ulysses anyway, of the thoughts of Dedalus. This also reminded me of the shape shifter Proteus in Homer's epic.
These were the connections I think Joyce was trying to establish, but let me know what you guys think. I am only seventeen after all!

Brandon wrote: "I'm loving Ulysses so far. I'm already farther than I've ever been in it before, so I am going to try and finish it!
So, as I was reading Episode 3, I tried to make the connections between Proteus..."
The Protean shape shifting idea is also directly connected to Stephen's shifting language and thoughts, and does appear as a jumbled mess. Stephen is an intellectual and frequently let's his mind off the leash - not unlike the dog racing across the Strand, chasing shadows and sniffing corpses...
@Brandon
These were the connections I think Joyce was trying to establish, but let me know what you guys think. I am only seventeen after all!
Okay, you can use that defense this week, but eventually we're going to call you the boy who cried "seventeen" - ROFL!!!
So, as I was reading Episode 3, I tried to make the connections between Proteus..."
The Protean shape shifting idea is also directly connected to Stephen's shifting language and thoughts, and does appear as a jumbled mess. Stephen is an intellectual and frequently let's his mind off the leash - not unlike the dog racing across the Strand, chasing shadows and sniffing corpses...
@Brandon
These were the connections I think Joyce was trying to establish, but let me know what you guys think. I am only seventeen after all!
Okay, you can use that defense this week, but eventually we're going to call you the boy who cried "seventeen" - ROFL!!!

So, as I was reading Episode 3, I tried to make the connections..."
Curses! You've found me out!

Well, like Jack Murnighan said,
"Meaning is everywhere. Don't just let meaning hit you--go find it."

Brandon wrote: "I'm loving Ulysses so far. I'm already farther than I've ever been in it before, so I am going to try and finish it!
So, as I was reading Episode 3, I tried to make the connections between Proteus..."
Nice, Brandon. The shifting sea, sea god, thoughts and language seem like a good way to look at the "Proteus" big picture.
Since the guide is in the mail, it's still just me and Ulysses. I don't have a great handle on the small-picture details and references here. Plus, since its reputation precedes it, I'm having a bit of talking-about-Ulysses performance anxiety. But even without a Jesuit education or a background in philology, I did find the sea language very beautiful in "Proteus:"
"Listen: a fourworded wavespeech: seesoo, hrss, rsseeiss, ooos. Vehement breath of waters amid seasnakes, rearing horses, rocks. In cups of rocks it slops: flop, slop, slap: bounded in barrels. And spent, its speech ceases. It flows purling, widely flowing, floating foampool, flower unfurling."
How beautifully Modern: make the language new!
If anyone else is down, I'd like to talk about the dogs in this section, living, dead and metaphorical. There's the cocklepickers' dog, the dog corpse and then Stephen talks about the Irish Mulligan as his "pointer" to the English Haines's "panthersahib." I'm wondering if anyone has any insight into the connection between the multiple dog references.
Also, thanks to Bill for putting us on Hamlet alert! There do seem to be a lot references to that play in these first three sections. I was also wondering what others thought about the Hamlet threads.

Brandon wrote: "I'm loving Ulysses so far. I'm already farther than I've ever been in it before, so I am going to try and finish it!
So, as I was read..."
I've been thinking on the dogs for a while. I got nothing yet but I'm down for a discussion on them. And also, anything about the other two episodes would be nice. I didn't get much out of the first one besides the usrurper and stuff.
Rachel wrote: "Also, thanks to Bill for putting us on Hamlet alert! There do seem to be a lot references to that play in these first three sections. I was also wondering what others thought about the Hamlet threads..."
At a simple level, I would say that England's occupation of Ireland could be looked at as a usurpation of the throne (killing Hamlet's father) and taking control of the land (sleeping with Hamlet's mother), hence Stephen's Hamlet-like melancholy. Not a very erudite description, I know, but I think it's in the ballpark.
I haven't thought much about the dogs yet...
At a simple level, I would say that England's occupation of Ireland could be looked at as a usurpation of the throne (killing Hamlet's father) and taking control of the land (sleeping with Hamlet's mother), hence Stephen's Hamlet-like melancholy. Not a very erudite description, I know, but I think it's in the ballpark.
I haven't thought much about the dogs yet...

And I think there is the question of usurpation -- but I think that Buck Mulligan is identified with Claudius -- and the usurpation may have something to do with what the original of Buck -- Oliver St. John Gogarty -- for in literature.
Here's the Wikilink to Gogarty http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oliver_S... It's interesting in that he did actually live with Joyce in a Martello tower although only briefly.
The question is also what English - as opposed to Irish literature in English -- means. Joyce wasn't the only one interested in this. I don't have time to check the history of Irish lit - but the early twentieth century was a significant time for it, perhaps the most significant.

Okay. That makes sense, and the complicated Hamlet/Gertrude relationship could work with the complicated Stephen/Ireland relationship. Though the fact that Stephen, wearing his "Hamlet hat," is actually mourning his actual mother, whom the rumblings seem to say he killed (with his refusal to pray?) then gives me some brain pain.

I was struck by how the England/Ireland tensions -- political, linguistic, social, and literary -- were right out there, front and center, in these three sections.



Joyce introduced the character, Stephen Dedalus, in his novel A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man. The novel covers Stephen’s years in school, t..."
Jim I am an anal reader and I felt lost reading today and knowing that I should have read something before starting this book YIKES!!! I will hope for the best now that we are all aboard!!!

That the shells represent Ireland's people as hollow entities that have had their culture carved out by the English. That's all I can remember for right now, though I'm sure there's more.
Sue wrote: "Jim I am an anal reader and I felt lost reading today and knowing that I should have read something before starting this book YIKES!!! I will hope for the best now that we are all aboard!!!"
Even though the book begins with Stephen, he is not the most important character in Ulysses. 'A Portrait...' has many details about Stephen in school and the development of his intellect and soul - and a lengthy guilt-trip sermon about jesuit hell - but for the purposes of Ulysses, you only need to know that Stephen is not at peace with himself, his country, his family, or his god.
Even though the book begins with Stephen, he is not the most important character in Ulysses. 'A Portrait...' has many details about Stephen in school and the development of his intellect and soul - and a lengthy guilt-trip sermon about jesuit hell - but for the purposes of Ulysses, you only need to know that Stephen is not at peace with himself, his country, his family, or his god.

Maybe a good thing to read his earlier work I am finding it very easy to read.

Maybe a good thing to read his earlier work I am finding it very easy to read."
You may also try Dubliners. It's only connection to Ulysses is that some of the short stories' characters appear in minor parts in Ulysses, but I think it's a pretty good introduction to Joyce's work. But then, you may not want to add more pressure onto your reading list...

I'm wondering if a quick reread of The Odyssey would make Ulysses a better or more enjoyable or more understandable read. (I could read The Odyssey pretty quickly, since I've read it before -- so it would be more of a "skim" than an actual "read")
I have also read A Portrait of the Artist, so I feel as though I know Stephan Dedalus quite well, even though he is not as important (which I believe is what Jim said) in Ulysses as some of the other characters. (Or maybe Jim meant that reading A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man is not as important in terms of Stephan's role in Ulysses, because A Portrait is about Stephan's youth.
Sorry!!! I don't mean to cause any further Brain Pain here!!! My real question is this: How familiar with The Odyssey should one be in order to REALLY "get" and enjoy Ulysses???

Rachel wrote: "Since the guide is in the mail, it's still just me and Ulysses. I don't have a great handle on the small-picture details and references here. Plus, since its reputation precedes it, I'm having a bit of talking-about-Ulysses performance anxiety. But even without a Jesuit education or a background in philology, I did find the sea language very beautiful in "Proteus"..."
My guide is in the mail too, so I'm on my own for a little while. Section 3 was a little rough without guidance, but I survived. And, as you said, Rachel, some of the language in this section was quite beautiful.
Katy wrote: "I'm just reading it without demanding anything of myself. That is, if I get something, cool. If I don't, I don't care. I just keep reading. I have a feeling that if I finish it this way, I will be ..."
I have basically the same attitude, Katy. This is my first reading, so I'm considering it worthwhile if I just make it through the book (which I am determined to do!). Obviously, I'd love to do more than barely scratch the surface, but I'm content with whatever happens.

If you can keep this pace up you might just pull me through into finally getting to the end of this book the first time ever...- though I'm only cautiously optimistic. :P
I wasn't planning to do any of this with you as it's too big for me at the moment, and I have a life beyond Gr after all..
(there's still Derrida and The Waste Land and other groups)
But. Now I've started to revisit The Odyssey via an audiobook I have of it. Perhaps I should find an audiobook of Ullysses, to catch up in those moments that one can't read - like when commuting.
I find Stephen a very sad sack, hard to like; but I don't like Mulligan either. He seems quite callous, cruel, even; or am I being over-sensitive here?
In the whole scheme of things, how does Stephen's dead mother feature? I mean, amongst other things she is a device to make Stephen a bereaved son, sure, but does she herself actually represent something/someone? Dead/lost freedom, perhaps?
Or does she represent religion - has Stephen betrayed her - and through her, religion, by his refusal to pray?

No, Dubliners is WAY easier than Ulysses. It reads like an actual definition of a book.


No, Dubliners is WAY easier than Ulysses. It reads like an actual definition of a book."
Ok Brandon you have talked me into it ! Put the Dystopian fluff nonsense away :)

I'm wonder..."
Gosh maybe just the spark notes for Odyssey! haha I am too anal for this I dont feel prepared. And obviously I needed to tune up on my Shakespeare as well?

Or you could just get on with it with a copy of Don Gifford's Ulysses Annotated. It's not another edition -- it's just a book of annotations.
One thing I found when I was reading Ulysses a while ago, once I found out what some of the annotations referred to -- I often didn't care.

Ah, Ulysses. You are the intellectual equivalent of Mount Everest. You require tons of pre-read reads, a dictionary, several thousand pages of different opinions, and three to four months of reading time. Your covers are daunting, but we will conquer you!

Yes I said yes I will Yes... I am determined to read Ulysses straight through, as much as possible without recourse to notes, explanations, etc. This first time reading it I want to hear his language (I've already read some of it aloud to myself) and "see" his descriptions and the scenery of Dublin, and try to understand some of the allusions on my own first.
I know there is much more lurking behind the text, and I'll need some help through some of it (hello episode 3) but I think there is a definite case to be made to make a full lap up on the surface before turning around again and diving deeper.

By no means do I feel confident about my interpretations of anything within this book, but I saw his mother as representative of his religious severing. The refusal to pray is mentioned several times, and it seems to be quite significant. I definitely read his mother and religion as being intertwined to some degree.
Sue wrote: "Ashley I had the help book and section three was very confusing for me. I guess I am a plot girl as I am quickly going through Portait of an Artist and loving the story."
Yes, I imagine that section is challenging no matter what supplemental texts you may have available to you. I have not read Portrait, although I wish I had been able to spare the time. Perhaps I'll read that one after I'm finished with Ulysses.
Linda wrote: "Is there a history between Mulligan and Stephen in "A Portrait..." that we need to know about? ..."
No, Buck Mulligan doesn't appear in 'A Portrait..."
Stephen is definitely dominated by Buck, not unlike how Telemachus is dominated by Antinous and the suitors in The Telemachiad (the opening books) of The Odyssey.
No, Buck Mulligan doesn't appear in 'A Portrait..."
Stephen is definitely dominated by Buck, not unlike how Telemachus is dominated by Antinous and the suitors in The Telemachiad (the opening books) of The Odyssey.
Barbara wrote: "Can Ulysses be fully appreciated if one reads it without "really knowing/remembering" most of the details of The Odyssey?? I loved The Odyssey, but it's been so long since I've read it.
I'm wondering if a quick reread of The Odyssey would make Ulysses a better or more enjoyable or more understandable read..."
Re-reading the Odyssey certainly wouldn't hurt, but I think you would get more mileage from Stuart Gilbert's James Joyce's Ulysses. Gilbert connects the dots for the reader, showing which connections Joyce made between Homer's story and his own. Gilbert will get you there much quicker!
I'm wondering if a quick reread of The Odyssey would make Ulysses a better or more enjoyable or more understandable read..."
Re-reading the Odyssey certainly wouldn't hurt, but I think you would get more mileage from Stuart Gilbert's James Joyce's Ulysses. Gilbert connects the dots for the reader, showing which connections Joyce made between Homer's story and his own. Gilbert will get you there much quicker!

In episode two, I was struck by the moment where Stephen is ruminating on whether all the possible possibilities are really possible, since they did not become reality. (I believe my marginalia says "whoa!"). The end note, with the brief explanation of how these thoughts fit into Aristotle, was fascinating. Then there is the action summary for episode three in the end notes, and I read it and was disheartened to realize I had completely missed some of Stephan's actions (He urinates? what? I found where the dog peed on the rocks, but still haven't found the reference to Stephan peeing...). And, like Bill, I am not interested in some of the information provided by the end notes.
I must checkout the color-coded webpage, as some of the questions I wanted to ask about the text so far might be answered there.

Joyce weaves a lot of Western canonical philosophy into his text, it seems. Well, I guess he weaves a lot of everything into his text, but I really noticed the philosophy. I'm a philosophy minor, which is probably why it stuck out--they are probably the only references I half-way understood. Haha.
Jim wrote: "...but I think you would get more mileage from Stuart Gilbert's James Joyce's Ulysses. Gilbert connects the dots for the reader, showing which connections Joyce made between Homer's story and his own. Gilbert will get you there much quicker!
"
That's good to know! I just ordered the Gilbert text, so I will hopefully get it this week. I haven't read any Homer since early high school, so I don't remember enough to make connections on my own.


http://www.amazon.com/Ulysses-Oxford-...
and search for 25.23 (on page 776). I can't explain Aristotle, but I feel the endnotes give just enough so that I can understand the reference.

That’s what I saw as the main Proteus connection. I also like the idea (don’t ask me where I saw this, the references are getting as jumbled as Stephen’s thoughts) that this puts the reader in the position of Menelaus - just hold on and keep wrestling with the text and eventually it will yield its meaning.
Jim wrote: “The Protean shape shifting idea is also directly connected to Stephen's shifting language and thoughts, and does appear as a jumbled mess. Stephen is an intellectual and frequently let's his mind off the leash - not unlike the dog racing across the Strand, chasing shadows and sniffing corpses....."
I’ve found the stream of consciousness in Joyce is a fairly accurate portrayal of the way my mind (and I assume that of most people) leaps around from association to association. After reading Joyce, I’m always more conscious of these unconscious associations (oxymoronic?), and enjoy tracing my chain of thought back to the seemingly unrelated thing that started the journey from A to B. Of course where Stephen’s mind is inclined to wander through Yeats, The Upanishads, Irish history and 6 different languages, mine is more inclined to wander through Frisky Dingo, tacos, and zombie movies.

Huh. I found quite the opposite. Most of my inner dialogue is more conversational (I'm sorting out a problem by "talking it through" in my head or making lists of things to do, or whatever), with occasional digressions/interruptions (Look, squirrel!). So, I found Stephan's fragments of non-nonsensical thoughts to be unrealistic & irritating.
On a completely unrelated note, I was wondering about the differentiation between inner and external dialog. Without a separate reference book or a color-coded online text, how is a reader supposed to differentiate between the two? On the page, episode three's internal, imagined visit with Uncle Richie is visually the same as episode one's interaction with Mulligan. What clues did I miss that would tell me the former was an imaginary conversation?

As for the difference between inner and outer dialog -- well, this is a book where one doesn't always know who's speaking. You are simply not really going to get to the bottom of this book without a lot of time spent thinking about and commentary.
And that's always the big question -- is it worth it? Or how much time is it worth?

"Gold light on sea, on sand, on boulders. The sun is there, the slender trees, the lemon houses."
"Galleys of the Lochlanns ran here to beach, in quest of prey, their bloodbeaked prows riding low on a molten pewter surf."
I am finishing Episode 3 this afternoon and reading it as I would read poetry - letting the words, descriptions, stream of consciousness, alliteration, roll over me and seep in. I don't understand all of it logically and I know there are layers upon layers of meaning and hidden meaning in the words, but for now I am content to get the feel of the words themselves.
Later (this evening most likely) I am going to go back & re-read it with all the notes & explanatory/exploratory texts to get the rest of it. But for now I'm really enjoying the feel of the words & the story itself.
And then, tomorrow, on to Calypso...

Hey - you speak for your linear, organized minds, and I'll speak for my apparantly ADHD ridden leapfrog of a mind!
Regarding the difference between inner and outer dialogue, I've found it can be confusing initially, but it will finally sort itself out. In the example of the visit to the aunt's house, eventually the narration tells us Stephen is still walking on the beach, and later he comments about how he's passed the turn-off to her house. I think most of the 'action' can be followed with the application of diligence and re-reading.

I'm wonder..."
I'm listening to a wonderful reading of Butler's prose translation of The Odyssey as we go along. I'm really enjoying the Telemachus-Dedalus-Hamlet connections.

Ok Brandon you have talked me into it ! Put the Dystopian fluff nonsense away :) "
Dubliners is so traditional in fact, you could probably tear through the whole thing in the time it took me to get through Proteus! I read Portrait right before this, and it helped me get the flavor of this world and to understand (maybe!) some of those little throwaway references, like to Cranley. Plus, it falls between the traditional Dubliners and the crazy Ulysses on the experimental form continuum, so I felt like I got to ease into Joyce via the shallow end instead of getting tossed off the high diving board.
Books mentioned in this topic
The New Bloomsday Book: A Guide Through Ulysses (other topics)The New Bloomsday Book: A Guide Through Ulysses (other topics)
The New Bloomsday Book: A Guide Through Ulysses (other topics)
Byzantium: The Surprising Life of a Medieval Empire (other topics)
Ulysses Annotated (other topics)
More...
Part I – The Telemachiad
Episode 1, Telemachus
Scene: The Tower
Hour: 8 am
Art: Theology
Symbol: Heir
Technic: Narrative (young)
Stately Buck Mulligan mounts the parapet to lather his face and harass his Jesuit friend, Stephen Dedalus. A quick breakfast with an annoying Brit, then off to the creek for a swim. Haunted by the memory of his mother’s death, Stephen heads to work to earn his daily bread.
Episode 2, Nestor
Scene: The School
Hour: 10 am
Art: History
Symbol: Horse
Technic: Catechism (personal)
Stephen teaches history and helps an awkward young lad with his sums. A word with Mr. Deasy – of debts and rebels, of bullocks and jews - then off he goews.
Episode 3, Proteus
Scene: The Strand
Hour: 11 am
Art: Philology
Symbol: Tide
Technic: Monologue (male)
Stephen walks along the strand, free associating and letting his consciousness stream over time and space.
This episode is a bit of a challenge, but if you key in on the episode’s relation to the story of Proteus and Menelaus in The Odyssey, and also make note of the “Art” for this episode – Philology – you should be able to get a handle on what’s happening.
Proteus and The Odyssey
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proteus
Philology
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philology
NOTE: The descriptive items associated with each episode, “Scene”, “Hour”, “Art”, etc., are derived from what is known as ‘The Gilbert Schema’. These items were produced by Joyce in collaboration with Stuart Gilbert who wrote the book James Joyce's Ulysses, the first guidebook to Joyce’s novel. You can see the Gilbert Schema here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilbert_...