Discussion - Week One - Ulysses - Episode 1, 2, & 3

[Erika]

I was wondering, are the conversations with Uncle Richie and Patrice in episode 3 "imagined conversations" or memories? *Does it matter?

[William]

I just finished the first Episode, by reading it, reading the The New Bloomsday Book: A Guide Through Ulysses entries, then going over the entire text again with Ulysses Annotated covering each and every single reference. This might sound tedious, but it actually goes pretty fast, and while Joyce might not have intended a reader to do any of this, it's a pretty amazing and awe inspiring way to read this work. I think I enjoyed those 26 pages as much as any 26 I've ever read. It's also weird how much the reading I've done from Byzantium: The Surprising Life of a Medieval Empire with the History Book club has dovetailed into the references to early Christendom with the references to Arias and such. Hugely enjoyable to read in this manner.

[Brandon]

Erika wrote: "I was wondering, are the conversations with Uncle Richie and Patrice in episode 3 "imagined conversations" or memories?"

I think they are imagined conversation, as in that he is imagining what it will be like when he goes there. I think, however, that they are based off of memories from his past. How can you know what to expect if you haven't been there, after all?

[Brandon]

Will wrote: "I just finished the first Episode, by reading it, reading the The New Bloomsday Book: A Guide Through Ulysses entries, then going over the entire text again with [book:Ulysses Annotat..."

That's a good plan, Will. I think it's good to read notes while reading the book, because you can actually see the author's genius right there in front of you while you experience the book for the first time. For me, that's just cool. I can't afford those books though. :( I'm on my own for the most part.

[Rachel]

Brandon wrote: "Will wrote: "I just finished the first Episode, by reading it, reading the The New Bloomsday Book: A Guide Through Ulysses entries, then going over the entire text again with [book:Ul..."

My public library (In DeKalb County, Georgia!) has The New Bloomsday Book. Since Ulysses is such a monolith, you might have luck at yours?

[Brandon]

Rachel wrote: "Brandon wrote: "Will wrote: "I just finished the first Episode, by reading it, reading the The New Bloomsday Book: A Guide Through Ulysses entries, then going over the entire text aga..."

That's a good idea. I'll check. :)

[Ashley]

Whitney wrote: "Regarding the difference between inner and outer dialogue, I've found it can be confusing initially, but it will finally sort itself out. In the example of the visit to the aunt's house, eventually the narration tells us Stephen is still walking on the beach..."

Yes, this was the case for me as well. At first I did not know what to think, but the references to the beach grounded things for me. I found that if I paid close attention to detail, there was some indication of whether the dialogue was external or internal.

Rachel wrote: "My public library (In DeKalb County, Georgia!) has The New Bloomsday Book. Since Ulysses is such a monolith, you might have luck at yours? ..."

You know, I always forget about the library. I did not even think to check. I've already ordered the Gilbert guide, but if it doesn't arrive soon, I may be making a trip to the library (Coincidentally, I'm in DeKalb County as well!). And it doesn't hurt to have multiple guides at one's disposal for a reading like Ulysses!

[Rachel]

Ashley wrote: "Coincidentally, I'm in DeKalb County as well!" Whoa, crazy! Well, sorry I've got their only Bloomsday book heading my way.

But I think will be needing it because, and this is totally embarrassing, I think that when I was going on about all that beautiful language up there, it was actually the part where Stephen is, um, peeing. Which I didn't get upon first read. You guys who know what the heck is going on can definitely tell me this stuff!

[Ashley]

No problem, Rachel. My copy of the Gilbert text has supposedly shipped, so I'm hoping to get it very soon. Until then, I'm just going to keep trying to make sense of the text and rely on the wonderful posters here to help me see what I've missed.

Rachel wrote: "But I think will be needing it because, and this is totally embarrassing, I think that when I was going on about all that beautiful language up there, it was actually the part where Stephen is, um, peeing ..."

Oooh...someone had brought up that Stephen pees, something I also totally missed. Haha. I was wondering where the reference was...guess you found it :)

[Nancy]

Liz M wrote: "I must checkout the color-coded webpage"

Where?! Where?!

[Whitney]

Ashley wrote: "Rachel wrote: "But I think will be needing it because, and this is totally embarrassing, I think that when I was going on about all that beautiful language up there, it was actually the part where Stephen is, um, peeing ..."

Oooh...someone had brought up that Stephen pees, something I also totally missed. Haha. I was wondering where the reference was...guess you found it :) ..."

Allright, since it's come up twice, could you quote the first few words of the passage? Like Liz, I can only find the dog reference.

[Sue]

I too missed the peeing lol
but in Portrait some boy farted and they told him he stunk and should leave lol

[Brandon]

In case anyone didn't notice, Stephen also picks his nose and then wipes it on a rock. Gross.

[Whitney]

Brandon wrote: "In case anyone didn't notice, Stephen also picks his nose and then wipes it on a rock. Gross."

Because he didn't pick up his handkerchief after Mulligan used it to clean his razor. Double gross.

[Jt]

Some basic notes:

http://pers-www.wlv.ac.uk/~fa1871/joy...

[Ashley]

Whitney wrote: "Allright, since it's come up twice, could you quote the first few words of the passage? Like Liz, I can only find the dog reference. ..."

It's on page 62 (new). The passage starts with "In long lassoes from the Cock lake the water flowed full..."

[Whitney]

Ashley wrote: "It's on page 62 (new). The passage starts with "In long lassoes from the Cock lake the water flowed full..."

Yep, that sounds like Joycean urination all right! Checking various sources, "Cock Lake" really is a name for the tidal area in Sandymount, so a typical multilayered reference. Nice.

[Jt]

In describing the milk woman, one source I'm reading says: "Dedalus' word play hints of Mother Grogan as one of the Gorgon sisters from Greek myth."

I'm missing this... Does anyone else see this?

[Rachel]

Drawing on my hazy recollections of Greek mythology, I wasn't noticing striking parallels, but I'm sure they're there. And thanks for the reference link, Jt.

Ashley wrote: "Whitney wrote: "Allright, since it's come up twice, could you quote the first few words of the passage? Like Liz, I can only find the dog reference. ..."

It's on page 62 (new). The passage starts..."

Yup. That's the one. When Liz mentioned it, I went hunting and realized I had missed several layers of meaning in that passage completely first time around.

[Jim]

Rachel wrote: "Yup. That's the one. When Liz mentioned it, I went hunting and realized I had missed several layers of meaning in that passage completely first time around..."

Ulysses is definitely an archaeological dig through many layers of history, literature and philosophy. Each time you re-visit this book (and you will), you're going to find something new.

As Italo Calvino wrote, "A classic is a book which has never exhausted all it has to say to its readers."

Assolutamente vero signor Calvino!

[Liz M]

Nancy wrote: "Liz M wrote: "I must checkout the color-coded webpage"

Where?! Where?!"

Whitney posted it in the Questions, Resources thread:

Whitney wrote: "Another site people may appreciate if they don't have the annotated edition: http://www.columbia.edu/~fms5/ulys.htm . This has the complete test (Gabler, sorry Jim) with hover and view annotations adapted from Gifford. It also has different color text for dialog, narration, internal dialog, etc., ..."

[Liz M]

Rachel wrote: "I went hunting and realized I had missed several layers of meaning in that passage completely first time around...."

I am definitely enjoying the re-skimming as I look for passages y'all quote or ask about.

One of the aspects I am loving so far, is the use of repetition, both individual words and their variations, as well as phrases and images. I loved the description of Stephen's vision of his mother's ghost the first time and then enjoyed it more the second time. I also like it when little moments that I have questions about are answered in the next episode. Stephan, in discussion with Haines, says he is the servant of three masters and then goes on to describe Ireland and the Church. In the next episode, a reference is made to Stephen being the servant of history, as well (Aha! number master number three!).

I want to think more about Stephen's (and possibly Joyce's?) relationship to religion. In episode one, Stephen tells Haines there is only one sense of the word "believer". Later on, he tells Deasy that God is " a shout in the street". To me, not having any religious education, the first sentiment seems stuffy and conservative (perhaps as a result of it being in reaction to Haines) and the second seems..... unorthodox? I suspect this is also due to Stephen's ambivalence about religion; he tries on different attitudes with different people.

[Brandon]

Jt wrote: "In describing the milk woman, one source I'm reading says: "Dedalus' word play hints of Mother Grogan as one of the Gorgon sisters from Greek myth."

I'm missing this... Does anyone else see this?"

I saw the reference but I still didn't much get it.

[Linda]

So far, for me, the most impressive aspect of "Olysses" is the author. James Joyce had to be the most well read individual in the world! And perhaps he had an extrodinary memory. The references intertwined into these three chapters alone are so vast I can't imagine how a mind like that works.

[Bill]

Liz, Stephen's an atheist, although one strongly affected by his religious education.

[Sue]

So we know this from book one after all his Jesuit schooling? and how mean they really were.... IDK after those sermans I certianly would be running to God/Priest.
I missed the part when he decided he would be atheist? Do you recall where and which book we find this out? I would like to search that part again... im always missing things

[Bill]

It is the at the root of how Stephen acted at the death bed of his mother, what Buck teases him about "killing his mother", why Buck's aunt doesn't want Buck to spend time with him.

[Linda]

Bill Said: Stephen's an atheist, although one strongly affected by his religious education.

After reading the image of Mrs. Florence MacCabe dragging the trailing navel cords of all mankind, linking tham back to Eve is amazing. Stephen thinks of the Catholic Church as dead, a “widower.” The gruesome death of Arius dying in a water closet, expelling his intestines and other inner organs, and calling it “euthanasia” shows his belief that the church needed to die. Part of that, I'm sure is of his strict Catholic upbringing, but also comes of not wanting to take responsibility for denying his mother's deadbed wish. I'm not sure he is atheist, Bill. But he sure is anit-Catholic.

[Sam]

Mh... All the titles are left out in my german edition... umph. And I actually know the Odyssey. Well, fortunately I can look the titles up here ;-)
I started reading yesterday, and this seems to be pretty complex stuff. But interesting, too.

[Bill]

Linda, Liz,

When Stephen is walking with Haines, shortly after the Ballad of Joking Jesus, Haines is trying to get him to say what he believes or doesn't believe.

Finally, Stephen says with "grim displeasure" "You behold in me a horrid example of free-thought."

Stephen is teasing Haines, of course, with his use of language. But I don't think there's anything that would suggest he's not telling the truth at that point.

[Linda]

Bill, good point. Thanks.

[William]

A note on the ties between Ulysses and Hamlet with the concept of a usurper that Jim mentions in message #13 of this thread:

In Episode 2, there's a few references made during the conversation with Deasy (his name itself bearing possible reference to the Deasy Act of 1860, itself a form of usurpment of agrarian Ireland) to the Stuart Coins, Orange Lodges, or during Deasy's misogynistic passage where he references MacMurrough, who considering the "abduction" of Derbforgaill this could be possibly considered a reference to the Helen's "abduction" to Troy.

A reach? Probably, yes, but the ties to usurpers kept going a ceaseless picking at the harp strings of my mind as I read. Either way, with Joyce, it's all brilliant and fascinating.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Williami...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diarmait...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derbforg...

[Carly]

Laurele wrote: "Now you've gone and made me have to read The Odyssey again!"

OMG! No!

[Sue]

Proteius beat me.....sigh..... oh well at least I got to meet Mr Bloom after :)

[Luke]

Katy wrote: "I'm just reading it without demanding anything of myself. That is, if I get something, cool. If I don't, I don't care. I just keep reading. I have a feeling that if I finish it this way, I will be ..."

My plan exactly.

[Carly]

I'm working on my study of this book 'sans earphones' this morning/afternoon. Just going
over the text in Section/Chapter 1, my notes on everything Delaney has said, etc. Still
haven't finished listening to all his I-Pod talks for this section yet.

Like the obsessive nerd I am, I'm creating my own glossary. I know there are glossaries
available and it would be nothing more than a repeat of the material I'm finding on the
web.

But ... I'm doing it anyway. Information sticks in my mind that way.

When I did War & Peace, I collected a character list ... mmm hmmm ... even though there are
character lists in many places on the gawdfearin' web. I wanted to do my own - and I included
EVERYBODY, even so much as the proverbial fly(boy) on the wall.

So that shows ta' go ya' just how obsessive I get when I get enthused over a book study.

[Jim]

Carly wrote: "I'm working on my study of this book 'sans earphones' this morning/afternoon. Just going
over the text in Section/Chapter 1, my notes on everything Delaney has said, etc. Still
haven't finished ..."

What are your thoughts about the first episode?

[Carly]

Got a lot of 'em, Jim - here's one I'm having today.

(Not to say I'm dwelling on Section 1 deliberately - just don't seem to be able to move off it - anyway, I'm enjoying it, so I guess it's alright - Joyce would be pleased to hear I'm that entranced with it)

Quoting:

Buck Mulligan frowned at the lather on his razorblade. He hopped down from his perch and began to search his trouser pockets hastily.
—Scutter! he cried thickly.

unquote

From the Urban dictionary …
1. scutter 128 up, 44 down
a scutter (if you're from England) is someone who doesn't wash, has no job but sits on their stale asre watching trisher/kilroy all morning. They usually sport an huge collection of gold jewellery (purchased from Argos) and call their children- babby as apposed to baby.
Watch tv chatshow Trisha (if you're not at work that day!) the "guests" on that show will give you a rough idea. Tattoos, mullet,leggins etc....
No idea how that would relate to this text.
Anybody got any other definitions?

[Carly]

Here is the ‘real Mulligan’:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oliver_S...

Kinda nice to have a picture of the guy we all hate. I don't see how anybody could actually like Mulligan (Gogarty).

[Carly]

I finished reading and listening to Section 2 yesterday. Although I said I wouldn't do it, I've been happily listening to Delaney's little talks as he walks us through the chapter.

A new addiction, I guess.

I got a book in from the library:

James Joyce's Odyssey: A Guide to the Dublin of Ulysses by ... yeah, of course ... by Frank Delaney!

I've already been devouring those pages.

[Jim]

Carly wrote: "I finished reading and listening to Section 2 yesterday. Although I said I wouldn't do it, I've been happily listening to Delaney's little talks as he walks us through the chapter.

A new addict..."

What did you think about Stephen helping the young student? And his conversation with the Brit, Mr. Deasy?

[William]

He's not a brit though, correct? But what he calls a "West Briton"?

From Gifford:

Mr Deasy - The headmaster of
the school (see Ellmann, pp. 152-53). His name
may owe something to the Deasy Act (1860), an
act ostensibly intended for land reform in Ire~
land but in practice a ruthless regulation of land
tenancy in favor of landlords (i.e., in favor of
the pro~English, anti~Catholic Establishment).
In keeping with his name, Mr. Deasy is a "west
Briton," one who regards Ireland as the west~
ernmost province of England and who mimics
English manners and morals. Ironically, there
was a Rev. Daniel Deasy, resident as curate-incharge
of the Roman Catholic church in Castle
Street, Dalkey, in 1904, and chaplain of the
Loretto Abbey Female Boarding and Day
School."

[Jim]

Will wrote: "He's not a brit though, correct? But what he calls a "West Briton"?

From Gifford:
Mr Deasy - The headmaster of
the school (see Ellmann, pp. 152-53). His name
may owe something to the Deasy Act (1..."

A Brit by any other name, still oppresses the same...

Mr. Deasy does identify with England, as Gifford notes, and so acts as a stand-in Brit as far as Stephen perceives him. The scene reminds me a bit of when Stephen went to meet the Jesuit to discuss the possibility of him pursuing a religious career in "A Portrait..." Similar feelings of oppression and a close, stifling environment, listening to advice that he knows as he hears it, he will not follow.

[William]

I guess I brought it up because I'm fascinated with the Irish vs. Irish conflict when it comes to the issue of the Acts of Union, which is why the references to the Orange Lodges and Sir John Blackwood make the episode so especially fascinating for me. Deasy is a powerful symbol to encapsulate this Irishman who thinks he's and Englishman, not to mention the parallels that can be drawn to, most obviously to the Nestor from which the episode is titled. Nestor's advice is often seen as ranging from sinister to simply ineffective. Wikipedia (to mention it yet again) has a good bit on Nestor's advice: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nestor_(...
I wonder if Joyce also shared this (what seems to be) minority opinion on the character of Nestor's advice, and how that effects his portrayal of Deasy.
The modernism lab at Yale has some equally fascinating (ok, to me) thoughts: http://modernism.research.yale.edu/wi...

I'd love to hear some more thoughts about this, both 'fer and again', as there's such a wonderfully fertile delta plain of literary soil to be cultivated here.

[Rachel]

Jim wrote: "The scene reminds me a bit of when Stephen went to meet the Jesuit to discuss the possibility of him pursuing a religious career in "A Portrait..." Similar feelings of oppression and a close, stifling environment, listening to advice that he knows as he hears it, he will not follow. "

Nice parallel. In both scenes, an older man of scholastic authority steers Stephen toward a well-trodden path: the priesthood or English economy and the upward march of history. Along with church and family, country is one of the "nets" that Stephen will try to "fly by" on his attempt to become the artist, unbound. In rejecting the confines of both doctrines, he also rejects the two men as potential father figures, flying by all the nets. Am excited to see how this plays out when Telemachus finally meets Odysseus.

Will wrote: "The modernism lab at Yale has some equally fascinating (ok, to me) thoughts: http://modernism.research.yale.edu/wiki/..."

Thank you for this link! Interesting perspective on the role of history and fathers/sons in this section.

[Linnea]

I read in this order: Dubliners, Portrait, and now Ulysses...and I can definitely get a feel for Joyce's flow and purpose now, I would completely recommend that path for greater understanding. Though I'm late getting into discussion, I just wanted to note how much these talks are helping link The Odyssey and Ulysses for me, when the only time I really read the Odyssey was in 9th grade and I didn't particularly understand enough to care...this brought me back in! (I purchased my own Odyssey for readventuring, thanks Joyce!)

[Jim]

Linnea wrote: "I read in this order: Dubliners, Portrait, and now Ulysses...and I can definitely get a feel for Joyce's flow and purpose now, I would completely recommend that path for greater understanding. Thou..."

Great to hear you're getting into it! If you have a copy of Hamlet, you might want to give it a quick read before you get to Episode 9, Scylla and Charybdis.

BTW, I opened a thread a few weeks ago for anyone who wanted to discuss the relationship between Ulysses and the Odyssey.

[Linnea]

Awesome, I love Hamlet. I didn't know there was a connection. Thanks for the info Jim, I will jump into that thread.

[Casey]

I'm a bit behind with my reading, but I managed to finish up with The Telemachiad today. I did read Ulysses in college, but with quite a bit of support from my literature professor (I was an English major). It has been nice to read it (mostly) on my own. I have been reading brief synopses of the relevant parts of The Odyssey before jumping into each section, and reading synopses of the episodes as well (so I don't lose the plot). This has been working well, and the book has been much more enjoyable than the last time.

I got my edition from a used bookstore (it's a Vintage International from 1990), and spent awhile just writing in the episode names (the episodes are unlabeled). Although I don't typically write in the margins, I can't help doing it with Ulysses.

One thing that really struck me were references to self-presentation throughout. During the first episode, Joyce writes:

Stephan bent forward and peered at the mirror held out to him, cleft by a crooked crack, hair on end. As he and others see me. Who chose this face for me?

This suggests to me that Stephan is concerned with presenting himself in the way he wishes others to see him. I'm reminded of the social psychological theory of the looking glass self, which in fact predates Ulysses. According to this theory, the self is not just contained within a person, but created through interactions between the person, and how the person thinks the world sees him or her. Stephan seems to become paranoid about self-presentation during a paragraph in the third episode:

Reading two pages apiece of seven boks every night, eh? I was young. You bowed to yourself in the mirror, stepping forward to applause earnestly, striking face. Hurray for the God-damned idiot! Hray! No-one say: tell no-one. Books you were going to write with letters for titles. Have you read his F? O yes, but I prefer Q. Yes, but W is wonderful. O yes W. Remember your epiphanies on green oval leaves, deeply deep, copies to be sent if you died to all the great libraries of the world, including Alexandria?

This passage suggests a meta-commentary, in which Joyce (who was, clearly, well read) grapples with the desire to present himself as so, to affirm that his education mattered by making others aware of it. Ulysses is a deeply referential book; I found it interesting to remind myself that Joyce must have made these references, not only for literary, but also for personal reasons. Being an author (as opposed to diarist) requires you to present yourself to others, which comes with a whole host of issues (and insecurities).

The writing certainly sparkles: I must have seemed strange mumbling to myself on the subway, but I could almost taste the alliteration.

I know I'm late to this, but I'd like to remind everyone that we can all come up with interesting criticism on Ulysses, even if we haven't read The Odyssey/Portrait/Aristotle/etc. recently (or ever). There is certainly no one reading of Ulysses; it's not something that only the most elite can "get" while us mortals struggle to catch a gist. Let's remind ourselves that we won't be wrong if we just jump in and start analyzing!

[Carly]

Jim - I know you asked me what my thoughts are on Stephen/Joyce helping the student.

I'll come back to that after I've listened to Section 2 all over again today.