The History Book Club discussion
This topic is about
Byzantium
MEDIEVAL HISTORY
>
ARCHIVE - 9. BYZANTIUM... January 30th ~ February 5th ~~ Part Three - Chapter FIFTEEN and SIXTEEN (160 - 184 ); No Spoilers Please
date
newest »
newest »
I enjoyed the chapter on eunuchs in that it really blew away any stereotypes. I thought simply they did not play a larger role in society.
Mod
I think what surprised me most is that they got into government work. You figure they were for the bedroom and little else. Not so; this chapter gave all of it a human face.
I knew there were lots of eunuchs in the government. What surprised me was why there was such a large number of eunuchs. It was also surprising why parents would make their sons eunuchs.
Could becoming a eunuch open doors for you that normally would not, I wonder?
Mod
Bryan wrote: "Could becoming a eunuch open doors for you that normally would not, I wonder?"That seems to be the reason for a parent to make their son a eunuch.
message 9:
by
Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief
(last edited Jan 31, 2012 10:34AM)
(new)
-
rated it 3 stars
Mod
It is a form of self sacrifice on their part and they honestly think that what they were or are doing is honorable. We think otherwise.
It's astounding how eunuchs were such a normal part of society. It really does make one wonder about other aspects of a society that seem normal from within, but bizarre from outside, as you describe Bentley.I identified with the western European visitors to Constantinople who were horrified. I winced my way through that chapter.
Mod
If it was all about attaining family advantage, then having a son who was in position to help the family by his position in the church or imperial government was seen as a the correct thing to do. When a lot of children died early anyway, making a son into an eunuch may not have been seen as such a big deal. It is very hard to understand their thinking from our culture heritage. The chapter on the imperial court left me completely at a loss. Pomp and ceremony are not important to me.
Jim wrote: "It's astounding how eunuchs were such a normal part of society. It really does make one wonder about other aspects of a society that seem normal from within, but bizarre from outside, as you descr..."The Western Church had a more limited use for eunichs. Castrati (castrated) singers were used into the 18th Century in all-male choirs. I wonder what their social life was like ?
Bryan wrote: "Could becoming a eunuch open doors for you that normally would not, I wonder?"Looking back from a 21st C perspective, eunuchs might have made obedient docile employeess who would find their niche and never make waves. One of the reasons that we neuter animals is to make them less competitive and more trainable. I admit that such thinking makes me shudder, but people were not thought of as individuals back then, just a cog in a wheel.
Scott wrote: "Bryan wrote: "Could becoming a eunuch open doors for you that normally would not, I wonder?"Looking back from a 21st C perspective, eunuchs might have made obedient docile employeess who would ..."
However, it didn't seem that being a eunuch had anything to do with a changed personality. Herrin mentions "over-powerful eunuch courtiers, who attempted to dominate their rulers" and "ambitious schemes of leading eunuch courtiers" and "all to often they also shared the whims and cruelties of uncastrated men and women."
Mod
I was really baffled by the chapter about eunuchs. In today's point of view it really seems odd that the whole thing about eunuchs was to them so... normal? Like you said, people were really willing to castrate their sons in order to achieve higher status, which many of them actually did. What makes me to shudder, but also to somehow admire them, was that most of the eunuchs were obviously very intelligent people and yet were willing (more-less) to alter the way of their life permanently even when grown-ups.But what really intrigued me, was Theophylaktos' Defence of Eunuchs (p.169) - I'm tempted to say that the questions posed there look quite similar to those people pose today for other kinds of so-called "deviations". It might sound silly, but it somehow makes me glad to see that even then existed intelligent people who had enough courage to oppose stereotypes and to emphasize inner virtues above the exterior.
In contrast to the chapter about eunuchs, have you noticed the "beauty contests" in the imperial court? I really thought that existed only in Cinderella... As marriage was an important segment of foreign diplomacy, even Herrin says that it hasn't been very frequent. But really, one can imagine, how delightful was that to the higher (I guess so, to be presentable to the court) class of Byzantium, to be able to show your own daughters to the court even if they were from somewhere in the nowhere :-)
message 19:
by
Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief
(last edited Feb 04, 2012 03:05PM)
(new)
-
rated it 3 stars
Mod
Hard to understand really the motivations or rationale for this. But I sense sometimes that every group or subset feels the need to have a rationale of sorts. I think one can feel sympathy for what happened to these folks when they were very young and horror too. Still cannot understand the parents.
Yes -- it's hard to imagine that to them this was just an option like any other when they discussed the future of their children. I believe that it wasn't so widespread, but even the very existence of that kind of calculation horrified me.
Mod
It must be devastating to historians to have so many lead seals but none of the parchment documents themselves. I would love to know if there had been any documents in the rubble that was tossed into the sea in the 1920's.
Eunuchs were very common in countries ruled by Muslims as well, I'd never really given it that much of a thought before. However the matter of fact and highly detailed analyses of this book were an eye opener. I shudder to think of parents making their kids undergo this operation, it's so cruel and cold blooded- but then, so many parents sell their kids into slavery and prostitution, which would be way worse, because according to social mores then eunuchs would have had a chance at becoming highly powerful courtiers etc..
Mod
Good question Emily. I wonder if any of the group members might know.
Mod
Interesting observations Aparajita.
Emily wrote: "Scott wrote: "Bryan wrote: "Could becoming a eunuch open doors for you that normally would not, I wonder?"Looking back from a 21st C perspective, eunuchs might have made obedient docile employees..."
The last statement of the author that "eunuchs often shared the whims and cruelties of uncastrated men" suggests to me that the author was a bit surprised that eunuchs exhibited aggressive behavior.
Mod
Patricrk wrote: "If it was all about attaining family advantage, then having a son who was in position to help the family by his position in the church or imperial government was seen as a the correct thing to do. ..."Fortuneately, i think, pomp and circumstance is less important in Western society as a whole.
Bentley wrote: "Scott I hadn't noticed that but you are right in her meaning; was she comparing these men to castrated or neutered dogs (in dogs neutering is supposed to calm aggressive behavior) - what an odd com..."I don't know if it is relevant to discuss this, but eunuchs are not really necessarily un-agressive :(. They tend to be a social menace in my country- they often harass shops and restaurants for a part of the proceeds and extort money from families where there is a new baby; and they are really really agressive when they beg on the streets, sometimes even physically so,. The media gives them a lot of sympathy, because they are marginalised, but it seems like a chicken and egg situation. I have really only seen the aggressive and unpleasant side to them; maybe that's because there is no place for them in our society anymore- as compared to these ancient societies where they had some definite roles earmarked for them- this chapter kind of gives me a clearer picture. Sorry if I have gone off-book :(
I rather enjoyed the chapter on the Imperial Court, this is one of the things I like about reading history, it's kind of like reading lifestyles of the rich and famous, but with the added exoticity of a bygone civilization, and with a lot more intellectual satisfaction :). Love all the extravagant descriptions, -letters written in gold and jewel encrusted gold crockery, as well as the later descriptions by Harun ibn Yahya..I like the numerous little anecdotes with which she fills all chapters
What I find happening though is that a number of the same figures keep popping up in various,and I got confused..luckily there is a chronology and a list of emperors at the back of the text..and I'm thinking of reading up more about them in detail
message 31:
by
Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief
(last edited Feb 08, 2012 04:56PM)
(new)
-
rated it 3 stars
Mod
That is interesting Aparajita - in India there are eunuchs nowadays????; how old are these men and why or what was their purpose. Why were they made into eunuchs?
Mod
That sounds like a super idea; learning about some of these emperors and their reign as an ancillary read.
I didn't know that either, Aparajita. It seems the situation is quite the opposite compared to Byzantium.
Aparajita wrote: "The media gives them a lot of sympathy, because they are marginalised, but it seems like a chicken and egg situation..."Interesting, Aparajita! Same as Bentley and Bryan, I am curious too - I had no idea that eunuchs still exist. What happened to them, why were they made eunuchs? How comes that they cannot find any acceptable purpose in society, I mean, some kind of decent job, is it because of lack of education or something else? If you find questions a bit rude, I apologize, Aparajita - certainly you do not have to answer them if you do not wish so :-)
message 35:
by
Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief
(last edited Feb 09, 2012 06:03PM)
(new)
-
rated it 3 stars
Mod
http://www.humanrightsdefence.org/eun...
There are some in China as well but very few: (this second article has some distasteful aspects to it so be forewarned)
http://www.thingsasian.com/stories-ph...
ABC news: India’s Eunuchs Get Enfranchised
http://abcnews.go.com/International/s...
Youtube journalist report: (ABC Australia) - This group has its issues and has been not only the victims but it appears the victimizers.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yDoVLD...
Never knew such things existed still today. Very very odd. Shocking.
Oh dear... Now I'm really shocked and ashamed - I was aware of Indian complex caste system, but about hijras I literally haven't had even a clue. Remarkable and very informative post Bentley, thank you.Looks like vicious circle, if that's the right word - their way of life is such as it seems impossible to incorporate them into the society, whilst better education and law system against the victimizers (of both sides!) might provide them both with better quality of life as well as with the mutual tolerance. I hope you can understand what I mean.
Although, aside the physical segment, these Indian eunuchs have nothing in common with the Byzantium's, muslim's and even Chinese ones, because the latter were eunuchs made with -- let's say it that way -- higher purpose, which means to perform more-less important roles in all the above mentioned imperial systems, in the days that are long gone now.
message 37:
by
Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief
(last edited Feb 12, 2012 10:48AM)
(new)
-
rated it 3 stars
Mod
Zeljka wrote: "In contrast to the chapter about eunuchs, have you noticed the "beauty contests" in the imperial court? I really thought that existed only in Cinderella... As marriage was an important segment of f..."Like you, Zeljka, I didn't realize these "beauty contests" occurred as often. Although the story of Esther in the Bible is basically a beauty contest. I wonder if part of the reason such things happened was because the queen's role was often more social and visual, where beauty and "refinement" would go a long way.
And I agree with everyone that the eunich chapter was disturbing and illuminating.
Elizabeth S wrote: "Like you, Zeljka, I didn't realize these "beauty contests" occurred as often. Although the story of Esther in the Bible is basically a beauty contest..."You are right, I forgot Esther :-) In Byzantium it seems that the emperor and the empress were more often seen among the populace. It's anyway true wherever they have a royal family. Even today people (tabloids above all) are eyeing the royal couples with special attention.
For the week of January 30th - February 5th, we are reading approximately the next 25 pages of Byzantium by Judith Herrin.
The ninth week's reading assignment is:
Week Nine: January 30th - February 5th::
Part: III: Byzantium Becomes a Medieval State
Chapter 15: Eunuchs 160
Chapter 16: The Imperial Court 170
We will open up a thread for each week's reading. Please make sure to post in the particular thread dedicated to those specific chapters and page numbers to avoid spoilers. We will also open up supplemental threads as we did for other spotlighted books.
This book was kicked off on December 5th. We look forward to your participation. Amazon, Barnes and Noble, Borders and other noted on line booksellers do have copies of the book and shipment can be expedited. The book can also be obtained easily at your local library, or on your Kindle.
There is no rush and we are thrilled to have you join us. It is never too late to get started and/or to post.
Welcome,
~Bentley
TO ALWAYS SEE ALL WEEKS' THREADS SELECT VIEW ALL
REMEMBER NO SPOILERS ON THE WEEKLY NON SPOILER THREADS
Notes:
It is always a tremendous help when you quote specifically from the book itself and reference the chapter and page numbers when responding. The text itself helps folks know what you are referencing and makes things clear.
Citations:
If an author or book is mentioned other than the book and author being discussed, citations must be included according to our guidelines. Also, when citing other sources, please provide credit where credit is due and/or the link. There is no need to re-cite the author and the book we are discussing however.
If you need help - here is a thread called the Mechanics of the Board which will show you how:
http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/2...
Glossary
Remember there is a glossary thread where ancillary information is placed by the moderator. This is also a thread where additional information can be placed by the group members regarding the subject matter being discussed.
http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/5...