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Goodreads Authors/Readers discussion
III. Goodreads Readers
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Why don't more people read Self-published authors?
And there was I thinking that we weren't supposed to indulge in personal critisism and mudslinging? I must have picked up on the wrong thread. Sorry. I'll leave you to it!
Writing is a hobby until the writer decides to publish; at which time, the writer technically becomes an author. Being an author is a profession, therefore, one claiming the title of published author should strive to be a professional. A professional's work should meet at least the minimum quality standards equated with the term professional.
> Why don't more people read Self-published authors?Since I acquired a Kindle, I've read more than 1,100 books, novellas, and short stories by SPAs (mostly sci-fi). It's worth noting that I only read those that were offered for free on Amazon. I've never reviewed any of them, but I would struggle to rate 90% of them as more than one star for various reasons.
In my opinion, a good book starts with a good idea for a plot (preferably something original). The plot is gradually revealed via a good telling of the story. How the written story is communicated to the reader is a function of good grammar, spelling, and punctuation. How easily these three elements are navigated is a function of a good presentation. Stumbling over poorly constructed sentences disrupts the flow of concentration enjoyed when reading a good book. Illogical conversations or factually wrong information can be even more unsettling.
I think that a lot of people read SPAs, but very few are willing to spend money on an unknown author. Especially one that has only one work and no reviews and the "Look Inside" feature only convinces them to look elsewhere.
Perhaps the title of this thread should be: Why don't more people purchase books by Self-Published Authors?
Looks like I missed quite a bit here! I think the point many of us are trying to make, Michel, is not whether someone becomes a better writer over time, or whether first efforts should count for the "at least I'm trying" kudos, or whether writers on a tight budget should be excused from following the basic steps that everyone who's published is adhering to.The bottom line is that if a writer expects someone to pay for their book, then that book needs to be up to the professional standards of any other book. I work with authors who save up to afford edits and quality book covers, and who don't publish until they can, because they're intent on making sure their book quality is level with what's already on the bookstore shelves.
None of them are independently wealthy, but they all recognize the need for standards to be upheld.
Your reasoning regarding your English improving is irrelevant to the point of the discussion. I don't speak French, but if I were to publish in a language that's not my primary one, you can bet I would have a native speaker do the copyedits for me.
And it can be done on a tight budget if you're willing to put in the work and time. I have read Alicia's book (which she took years to self-edit) and I would have assumed a professional editor had gone through it. The cost of professional edits can be reduced considerably, in fact, when a manuscript has been rigorously self-edited—there are a couple authors I work with whose writing is so clean that I give a hefty discount to them as a "thank you."
There's nothing wrong with Ms. M wanting to read a book that's worth the money she's spent on it. You state, "News for you, Just-About-Cocky Ms M: not all people who write do so to earn a living. Many do it as a hobby, or with the wish to simply share ideas and concepts with others." That's fine, but don't expect people to pay for it and keep their mouths shut when the quality is not what they should expect.
We're not mudslinging, as Leslie seems to think. But we are all trying to make a point—from a variety of angles—that there should be no excuse for lack of quality if a writer expects readers to pay for the work.
I'm a firm supporter of SPAs. In fact, I read SPAs almost exclusively because I don't care for much that comes from the Big Five publishers. But I don't have time to waste. If a writer doesn't make the effort, why should I?
I like a good, original story. And given that you can find typos and errors in all big-time publications (magazines, newspapers, books, etc), I'm usually forgiving of the little things if the plot is good enough to keep me interested.
Lynda wrote: "We're not mudslinging, as Leslie seems to think. But we are all trying to make a point—from a variety of angles—that there should be no excuse for lack of quality if a writer expects readers to pay for the work."Well put Lynda :)
If writers only want to put out their work for free, there are ways to do that - such as a blog or sites like Wattpad.
When a writer decides to publish their book on a retailer site and charge a price - they enter into the business of publishing. With over 5,000,000 books for readers to choose from now, they can be discerning. If publishers (be they large scale or one person operations) need to produce a polished and professional product. A book that isn't up to a bare minimum standard, will soon disappear in the vast ocean of available books.
New technology has transformed both the production of goods and their selling. Traditional publishers and book shops no longer have a stranglehold on the book industry, thanks to Amazon and others (or no thanks to them if you are one of the third of independent bookshops which have closed in Britain in the last 10 years).Authors can now self publish easily and cheaply and although might not have quite the polish of their far more expensively produced traditionally published counterparts it remains a truth universally acknowledged (to half-quote a rather famous lady) that all the perfect grammar in the world does not make a boring book interesting or a factually incorrect book correct.
I feel the discussion here talks too much of extremes. I don't think any serious author would advocate publishing a book riddled with mistakes, grammatical or otherwise. On the other hand, if you self publish, a few errors might well creep in, certainly on the most basic level, that of doing it completely yourself. But then I have recently read several traditionally published books (and very famous ones) which also have a few errors.
In past centuries in western society the number of women painting or writing has been pitifully small for obvious reasons. Upper class men and male clergy were our dominant writers. In the 19th and 20th century women started to appear in greater numbers in the creative arts as their position in society improved, although initially they tended to come from upper, or upper middle class society. (20th century- Agatha Christie, Du Maurier etc.) Now self publishing is giving a voice as never before to both male and female writers. It is a tide which I believe is unstoppable and which is long overdue.
(BTW, Agatha Christie wrote her first novel in 3 weeks, but it took her 5 years to find a publisher. She is I believe, the biggest selling author in the world, after the Bible.)
I suspect it will not be long before we have robot writers. Their grammar and spelling will, I am sure, be perfect, but whether they will manage the exquisite prose of a novel such as Where the Crawdads Sing by Delia Owens (which took her 10 years) remains to be seen. Will traditional publishing houses publish them? I am sure they will if money is to be made.
As a corollary to the above I would like to add that I often read books which are, in fact, riddled with mistakes, blemishes, bits missing and deformed letters. They are books such as memoirs which were written in past centuries and which have long since stopped being sold in their original copies, but which can now be obtained cheaply by digital printing. They are often eye-witness accounts of the times in which their authors lived and I read them avidly, completely unbothered by the errors. If a book is worth reading, it is worth reading.
Defending, justifying, or excusing mediocrity in any craft, product, art form, or endeavor just encourages the proliferation of mediocrity. The adage "Anything worth doing is worth doing well" is well worth heeding.
Maybe there should be a more granular rating system for SPAs. Instead of 1-5 stars for the entire work, there could be several categories.For example:
(1) Plot
(2) Storytelling
(3) Grammar (et al.)
(4) Presentation
Each would be rated with 1-5 stars with a composite rating overall. This would allow someone to give kudos to a great plot and telling of the story, but to explicit knock the grammar and spelling with a rating. A potential reader that isn't bothered by one deficiency or another could make a more informed decision as to whether they want to read (or buy) the work.
Maybe this has been proposed before ... or maybe it would make things even more confusing for everyone. I don't know.
Just a random thought ;)
This is where Goodreads comes in for me. I read a few self-published authors but I rely on their Goodreads reviews when I am considering them. Self published books are often bargains and there are some good ones, but there are also some awful ones. So the reviews and the comments make the difference for me. That said, I rely on Goodreads reviews more than Amazon reviews because Amazon's rule changes on reviews make it a lot harder for a little known book to even get reviews.
We try to engage haters, so far we got many bad reviews, at least they read a titlehttps://jmkwalkow.wordpress.com/2019/...
I have not posted on this thread in over a year, but for the newer authors/readers on here, I am going to let you know as a reader that I do read self published and indie authors. If you would like to read what I posted on this thread it is message 2041 on page 41 on October 22, 2017. I did a long post about why I read self published authors.
I stand by what I posted then as even within a year, I have found more authors that are just starting out that I have added to my ever growing list of authors to read.
I do read main stream authors too, but I believe on giving indie authors a chance. If the storyline is something that I think I might like, then I will read it.
I am not an author, but as a reader I have always felt that if you do not open a book to read then how will you ever know where that story will take you. I have found many diamonds in the rough by giving indie authors a chance.
Grammar errors do not bother me either. Everyone makes mistakes and I have seen a few in main stream books. I actually came across a few in a book I read not too long ago by a main stream author (not mentioning names - lol), but it did not deter me from reading the book.
Now I did read a book that had disjointed sentences a few months ago and it made no sense, so I did not finish the book. I was surprised the author released the book on the market as if I had been that author, I wouldn't have wanted readers to flounder through my book that didn't seem to be finished.
As far as rating system for books, I do my own. I don't follow what everyone else does. If anyone has the time, I listed on my profile how I rate books.
To wrap this up as all of you are probably tired of reading this long post, I just want to say to the authors in this group that where would this world be without books and the authors as yourselves that write them? It would be a dull world as books are the only things that can take us readers out of this reality and send us to places unknown.
For the record, I happen to agree with The Just-About-Cocky Ms M and the others who believe that a published work should be a finished product. Like Cphe, I am "old school" as well (how old, I'd prefer not to say).When I self-published my first novel, I didn't quite understand the process and the industry I was jumping into. However, I went to great lengths to try and make sure that it appeared no different from any of the thousands of other books I've read. As a reader, I am anal-retentive about spelling and punctuation, so this is naturally reflected in my works. That doesn't necessarily make them "good" books, but at least the grammar barrier is eliminated.
My first novel took seven years to write and it shows. The second one was much easier as I could focus more on the story since I had already been through the publishing process. It was somewhat shorter, but only took five months and has much better continuity.
I do my own cover art and my wife helps out with the proof-reading. Other than that, I have no additional help with my novels. Not having a Facebook or Instagram or Twitter account, I don't have a lot of followers that can just jump right in and rate my books. The best reviews have been from random strangers that somehow found my novels in the vast wasteland of SPAs.
I grew up in an era when people were judged on their merits—this was before the "everyone is special" trend in education. Whatever review I might receive, I view it in light of my own expectations of a "good" book.
As a SPA, I expect no "special" treatment :)
Oh I agree with so much of what has been written here. I don't think I can add to it.I can only say that as a self-published writer, I do my utmost to present to readers a well-written book that doesn't conform to any formula which trad publishers can insist upon. However, I try to follow the most important rules.
And I probably read as many self-published authors as I do trad published.
Cphe wrote: "I don't understand why SPA's should be treated any differently...."It is disingenuous for SPAs, given the wide variety of stories and writing abilities, to say we don't have a problem - we are widely perceived as producing substandard work.
But we are not a homogeneous group. Some of us have very high standards for our writing, and know that traditional publishers have relatively few spots in their catalogues, and are reluctant to publish something that is not somehow pre-guaranteed to be a good bet, either by being 'more of the same, only different' or produced by a 'known' author.
There are many reviewers who simply refuse to consider anything self- or indie-published.
The solutions are myriad, and we have to keep pushing our books forward because we hope good work will be recognized on merit, however it was produced.
The Just-About-Cocky Ms M wrote: "they would have no problem with eating a bad meal ..."Or as long as it was excellent, even if the cutlery's cleanliness were suspect. (And the kitchen's.)
I prefer to want it all.
Hm. Interesting vibes here....My background as a reader is, traditional versus indie versus self-published matters not. If I see an attractive cover, and the 'blurb' catches my attention, I will pick it up and read the first two pages. If it doesn't have me riveted at that point, back on the shelf it goes- regardless of who wrote or published it.
And as a reader, I don't mind a stray punctuation miss or two (for example, a single quotation mark where there should be two). Those will not make me stop reading. What will make me step away and not finish a book are plentiful spelling and punctuation errors, and a flat plot with boring characters.
Now, as an author, my take on things is very different. It has to be perfect. My plot has to be engaging, my characters deep and rich and interesting. My spelling and punctuation HAS to be spot on.
Why, you ask? Because I am introducing a bit of my soul to random strangers, and inviting them on a journey with me; I want them to feel that same rush of excitement reading my work that I felt when I was writing it. And poor spelling and misplaced commas distract from that experience.
I'll just close by saying - I've held books in my hands by world-famous authors published by the 'big dog' publishing entities, and found typos. The quality of the work - the worth of the work - shouldn't be judged by how the book came into existence, but what lies between its covers.
The thing is, if your grammar and spelling and punctuation and other mechanics are reasonably standard, no one will notice.But if they are substandard, about half of your potential audience for stories will notice, and be turned off. Why would a writer want to take that chance?
The art part of writing is hard to learn, even for those who spend many years working on it. The mechanics part isn't hard, and it doesn't change much - and once the investment is made, that's it.
I'm sorry if I've gotten far afield from the original point (that's what civil conversations do), but I was speaking as a reader: I physically can't read a book with too many errors, regardless of where it comes from - my brain stops processing. I've always been that way, but illness has made it worse.I'm not talking about an occasional gaffe, or a couple of typos, or British spelling (which is fine); I mean enough problems that it's clear the author has limited English skills.
We make marks on a page to communicate; we have to have some basic agreements about what those marks mean to get a story from the author to the reader.
I read a lot of self published works. And I've read some really good ones. Ones that are better written and edited than so called professional writers. But you have to be selective, and it'll be the blurb first then the Look Inside. If they grab me, I'll buy it.
Madeleine wrote: "I read a lot of self published works. And I've read some really good ones. Ones that are better written and edited than so called professional writers. But you have to be selective, and it'll be th..."I'm the same. I think people assume that self published somehow means lesser quality. Like you said, it's about being selective. Some of the best books I've read are by Indie authors. :)
Many self-published works are well-written, beautifully narrated, interesting, and professionally presented. Unfortunately, the majority are not.In many cases, it is not because the author does not possess the talent to become commercially successful, it is because their eagerness to publish overrides their patience and willingness to expend the time, effort, and resources required to learn and then develop the basic technical knowledge and rules associated with correct spelling, grammar, syntax, punctuation, and narration.
Too many fail to obtain the services of professional, unbiased conceptual and copy editors whose input could vastly improve the odds of succeeding within a highly competitive field.
"It seems that either people love to read self-published authors, or they refuse to. Why do you or don't you read self-published authors? Likewise, if you find a book that looks good but you find out it is a self-published author, are you less likely to read it?"I rarely find self-published works to be worth the read. Don’t get me wrong! There are a few hidden gems within the mass of self-published works, this is true. But the majority are very, VERY difficult to read for several reasons:
1) Premature Publication. I get it. You’re excited. You’ve just finished your masterpiece and HAVE to share it with the world so everyone can see your genius and you can start raking in the Benjamins. But patience is a virtue and it does provide bigger rewards. (Remember the Marshmallow Test? If not, look it up.) Did you forget to PROOFREAD? The problem with self-publishing authors is that they are in SUCH big HURRY to get their product out there that no proofreading/editing seems to be done. This is a basic we learn in elementary school. The largest issues readers run into with these self-published books is that the author fails to proofread and find others to do the same and provide constructive feedback (more sets of eyes are better). Oftentimes a simple, "Hey, can you read this and see what you think?" will solve a lot of issues readers may have with your work. Even if the premise, plot, world-building and character-building are all good, glaring errors with the basic rules of writing (punctuation, spelling, grammar, syntax…) will sound death knell for your book.
2) Dialogue vs. Age Mismatch. The dialogue doesn't match the age of the main characters. (Activate perma-eye-roll.) An example is your character is in their mid-to-late 20's or early 30's but their dialogue is that of a young adult or teenager. Um, no. (I'm practically screaming inside my head while simultaneously rolling my eyes and grinding my teeth when authors do this.) For Romance/paranormal readers, when the supposedly ancient paranormal is as immature as the mortal who is supposed to be in that 20-30-year-old range, or if both are paranormal and no one appears to have the maturity of their age without some serious reasons why, I cannot even... Readers expect characters over 100 years in age would have experienced some serious life events to push them past the dialogue of a middle or high schooler and give them some wisdom benefitting their age, especially since most readers will have matured beyond that point, as well. Unfortunately, this age/maturity dichotomy happens with self-published authors quite frequently (though there are a few publishing house authors that also fall into this category).
2.5) Dialogue... Also, repetition in dialogue from the main character(s) gets SO tiring. Creativity! Why do they ALWAYS have to say the Same. Exact. Thing. EVERYTIME?! Sigh. Switch it up a bit. Why do they always have to giggle or brood or smolder or whatever?
3) Plot. I read a lot of romance. Lately, I read a lot of paranormal romance. The problem with self-published authors is that they throw in everything all at once. There is little to no pacing, like they're desperate to add every single thought they've ever had about what they like in paranormal romance and so EVERYTHING goes in. Everything. Witches, weres, vamps, ghosts, angels, demons, gods...the list goes on. And none of it really makes sense. This is not exclusive to romance as I’ve experienced it with horrors, thrillers, mysteries, among others, as well. World building is vital to plot building. Throwing it all in the pot makes it seem as if you didn't really spend time on your work. Oh, and watch out for those pesky plot holes! (Please.)
4) Cover...Art (or a picture they took on their phone of some random subject)? Yes, I said it; it's a thing- for me, at least. Granted, I'm a photographer so it's a thing I look at (very visual, she is, she is. Yessssss. Very visual, indeed!). Seriously, sometimes the cover art is oh so very lame that I cannot get past it to click to download/purchase/whatever. But I will admit to having read some pretty awesome books with awful covers. Cover art is supposed to entice. Sometimes it's what the reader will see before they see the title. Therefore, it should grab the reader’s attention. Speaking of which...
5) Name that Book! Don’t just throw a title that looks like you didn’t care about naming it. Spend some time to really consider and evaluate your word baby. You made it, you name it! But please give it a name it can live up to!
6) Review Graveyard. Yes, a lack of reviews will hurt you, but so will having mostly “in exchange for an honest-review” reviews. They are more likely to contain 4-5-star ratings when the work is loaded with all of the issues that I’ve spent time pontificating on above. We KNOW they are likely exaggerated (the psychology of this is quite simple: expectation for a good review is implicit in the “free” copy). I skim right over those and go for the lower stars to get an idea of what's really going on, then formulate my decision to buy or not to buy.
7) Cost...Book Length...Cliffhangers...Accessibility, Oh My! Cost is an issue. We know it costs to publish, but if you're new, we are oh so very less likely to be willing to fork over more than a couple dollars for your debut work. Public introductory discounts, Kindle Unlimited, or other free or reduced options (not ARCs) are always good ideas as it generates more traffic: minimal risk with purchase increases your odds of getting readers. Charging $5-$7 or more for your 72-page novella with a cliffhanger so that we must keep purchasing your overpriced and likewise paged novellas which were all published at the same time or within days/weeks of each other in order to get to the end of the story when really the ENTIRE thing (200-300 pages could have been one book (4-5 novellas-priced-as-full-books later) is EXTREMELY offensive to readers. (Yup, specific for a reason because it’s SOOOOOOO common.) Until you reach the status of well-known authors with significant 4-5-star books under their belt, you cannot do as they do and charge $7 for a novella. You just can't. Nope.
Self-published works can be great for both the author and the reader, if the author TAKES THE TIME to reduce the above occurrences and then also spends time reading the low reviews to improve future works. I'm willing to give authors another chance if the first work of theirs I read contain the issues I mentioned above (the 1st one usually has me ending the book before I've finished the first chapter, though), and so are most readers. Take that chance to read up and LISTEN to what your readers are saying. That is my biggest advice for self-published authors.
Time. Patience. Effort. Resources (like spell-check and unbiased proofreaders/editors). Writing for fun is easy. Writing for consumerism is the challenge.
But don't just take my word for it. Just do a Google search for "common self-publishing mistakes" or "self-publishing problems for readers" and be informed for yourself. 😊
Jim wrote: "Many self-published works are well-written, beautifully narrated, interesting, and professionally presented. Unfortunately, the majority are not.In many cases, it is not because the author does n..."
Yes. This right here.
D.F. wrote: "Hm. Interesting vibes here....My background as a reader is, traditional versus indie versus self-published matters not. If I see an attractive cover, and the 'blurb' catches my attention, I will ..."
I totally agree with you. A few typos does not a deal break, but a plentiful bounty does. There have been SO many self-published works by over-eager and impatient authors where they have offered me such a bounty within the first few pages! I haven't even really gotten past the foyer and it's being shoved down my eye sockets. Yikes! I'll skim a few pages more to see if it's a fluke, but it rarely is. In this case, it's a quick 1 star and a DNF for me then, even if the story between the covers had such great potential. Such basic issues en masse is like an itch below my skin I just can't get to and won't go away! Bugs the daylights out of me. I sometimes want to email the author and URGE them to proofread and submit an updated version so I can enjoy what they're trying to share with me.
@Jennifer. I am a self-published author and I try my best to produce good, professional books. While my spoken and written English is good, my native tongue is French. My first novels did suffer due to me still perfecting my English but I can say now that it is vastly better today, mostly due to practice and lots of reading. To what degree, if any, would you take into account in your book reviews the fact that the author is a non-English native?
I would say to you that this is a perfect example of needing an editor or someone to proofread your work. It would be the same if I tried translating from English to another language I don’t know well enough- major publishers obtain translators to ensure the work can flow more seamlessly into another language. I didn’t say self-publishing was easy, but I expect a book I pay for to be edited and proofread for errors. Even if the author is self-published. It shouldn’t matter. Quality is still important. And too many basic errors is almost 100% guaranteed to become a DNF with a low rating and review. No one is checking to see if the author is still in the process of learning the reader’s language or not.
Michel wrote: "@Jennifer. I am a self-published author and I try my best to produce good, professional books. While my spoken and written English is good, my native tongue is French. My first novels did suffer du..."Michel,
First, allow me to profess my admiration and envy regarding your bi-lingual skills. As is the case with the majority of Americans, English is the only language in which I am fluent.
That said; I would suggest that, prior to publishing, you obtain the services of a professional copy editor and conceptual editor whose native country happens to be the one in which you are publishing. They will be able to quickly detect and recommend correcting certain idioms, slang, vocabulary, and spelling with which your targeted audience may not be familiar.
This suggestion applies equally to all authors. Please refer to message 2258.
I wish you success.
Thank you for your kind words, Jim.
Jennifer wrote: ""It seems that either people love to read self-published authors, or they refuse to. Why do you or don't you read self-published authors? Likewise, if you find a book that looks good but you find o..."I am a self-published author. I did not make any of the above "mistakes." I have plenty of 4 and 5 star reviews, only one of which was "free book for a review". Perhaps you'd like to take a look.
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/4...
https://www.amazon.com/dp/1729756050
Thanks, Susan
Susan wrote: "Jennifer wrote: ""It seems that either people love to read self-published authors, or they refuse to. Why do you or don't you read self-published authors? Likewise, if you find a book that looks go..."Hey there! I see you live in Israel like me! My friend, Debbie Zimmelman, self-published a book of photography and hasn't figured out how to sell it on Amazon. Any suggestions?
Jennifer wrote: "... There are a few hidden gems within the mass of self-published works...There are lots of good observations and advice in Jennifer's posting (message #2259 at the moment)... The bit about hidden gems applies to everything, even mainstream published work. ;-)
The Just-About-Cocky Ms M wrote: "What I've noticed over the past couple of years is an obvious decline in proper editing--or any editing at all--by the Big Five. No copyediting for typos and mistakes, no general editing for plot, ..."
Hear! Hear!
Hear! Hear!
The Just-About-Cocky Ms M wrote: "The gap between good indies/SPAS and trad pubbed is narrowing steadily and significantly...."But it is still incredibly difficult to get noticed as an indie self-published writer of mainstream fiction.
Not everyone realizes or believes that "obvious decline in proper editing--or any editing at all--by the Big Five" means that they should look for the indies with high standards (as evidenced by their actual work - check the Look Inside feature!) and not dismiss all indies.
And because of the often horrible, rights-grabbing contracts from the big publishers, even many traditionally-published authors are going hybrid or all the way to indie. But authors shouldn't have to be vetted first by getting the attention of a big publisher - as a badge of honor.
A poorly written, badly edited work is a poorly written, badly edited work, regardless of how it is published. Bad is bad - period!One method to determine whether or not a self-published work will likely meet or fail to meet the quality standards anticipated by avid readers is to read the author's comments and self-promotion posted within various literary website discussion groups such as those found in Goodreads. If they are rife with misspelled words, incorrect grammar, and haphazard syntax, the author's published works will likely be of the same quality.
If an author does not feel the need to proofread and correct errors in a one or two paragraph posting in a literary website, it is unlikely that he/she will do so before publishing their book.
Jim wrote: "Many self-published works are well-written, beautifully narrated, interesting, and professionally presented. Unfortunately, the majority are not.In many cases, it is not because the author does n..."
Yes, Jim. These first two sentenses of yours sum up the problem perfectly. No need to say more.
Alicia wrote: "The Just-About-Cocky Ms M wrote: "The gap between good indies/SPAS and trad pubbed is narrowing steadily and significantly...."But it is still incredibly difficult to get noticed as an indie self..."
Picking up on your observation, Alicia. You might take heart from the fact that Patrick White's 'Voss' only has 2269 ratings and a star average of 3.77, William Golding's 'Rights of Passage' has 3092 ratings and an average star rating of 3.60 and V.S.Naipal's 'In a Free State' has 3535 ratings and a 3.50 average star rating, and, and this is the important bit, all these books were Nobel Prize winning!
I can bet that there will dozens of other books on Goodreads that have vastly more ratings and much higher average star ratings. However, the average reader is not looking for 'good literature'. So the question every author must answer for themselves is 'why are they writing and for whom?'
Picking up on your ' But authors shouldn't have to be vetted first by getting the attention of a big publisher - as a badge of honor. ' Unfortunately, we all need vetting by someone - someone who a reader is likely to take some notice off - in order that they try our book in the first place. With indie publishing that is the hard bit as reviewers are as varied as writers. I had one the other day who didn't know Henry James, C.S.Lewis or Jostein Gaarder and yet there she was offering her services as a reviewer! Which takes me back to Jim's comment, ' Unfortunately, the majority are not.' as this applies to both authors and reviewers - ref my first para.
Perhaps the best philosophy to adopt is one of, if one enjoys doing it, it doesn't matter whether the rest of the world recognizes it or not.
Leslie wrote: "Picking up on your observation, Alicia. You might take heart from the fact that Patrick White's 'Voss' only has 2269 ratings and a star average of 3.77, William Golding's 'Rights of Passage' has 3092 ratings and an average star rating of 3.60 and V.S.Naipal's 'In a Free State' has 3535 ratings and a 3.50 average star rating, and, and this is the important bit, all these books were Nobel Prize winning!..."But several thousand people - imagine them standing in a bunch - read and rated and reviewed. I'll relax when I'm not famous - but thousands of people have read my novels.
You have to start somewhere, and 'if one enjoys doing it, it doesn't matter whether the rest of the world recognizes it or not' can be enough for some people, and I have a high percentage of very positive reviews - but only after I've persuaded reader to have a bit.
I don't think I'd keep writing if it were just for me. After all, I know how the story ends! I have stories to tell, and that presupposes readers.
John Kennedy Toole's Pulitzer was... posthumous. He didn't get to enjoy any vindication.
Leslie wrote: "Perhaps the best philosophy to adopt is one of, if one enjoys doing it, it doesn't matter whether the rest of the world recognizes it or not..."
I write as a hobby and, now that I have retired and live on a pension, writing is even more enjoyable for me. And, to Alicia, I don't really know how my story will end exactly until I am well into my draft and even that is not assured. That's the fun of inspiration for a writer.
I write as a hobby and, now that I have retired and live on a pension, writing is even more enjoyable for me. And, to Alicia, I don't really know how my story will end exactly until I am well into my draft and even that is not assured. That's the fun of inspiration for a writer.
Michel wrote: "I don't really know how my story will end exactly until I am well into my draft..."You sound like a pantser - I could never do that. Or rather, I did that for the first book, the mystery which may never be published, and can't even see how to fix it. Too bad, I like the characters, and all the people who read it said they couldn't put it down after the first third.
Now I'm an extreme plotter, and keeping it that way. There is plenty of excitement in writing the scenes, even when I know exactly what they have to do and why they're in the story.
Writers differ.
Jennifer wrote: ""It seems that either people love to read self-published authors, or they refuse to. Why do you or don't you read self-published authors? Likewise, if you find a book that looks good but you find o..."Jennifer, thank you for a concise listing of common writing problems faced by beginning authors. Frequently a writer's first book, or even first few books, should not be published because they have not mastered the craft of writing a well constructed and entertaining story that is WORTH the reader's time. That is what we should strive for. A great, well written story with compelling characters that the reader CANNOT put down. I have received that compliment a few times and cherish it like gold. Rory Church
Marie wrote: "I hope I can post on this thread and hope it is not for authors only. I have been reading all the posts on here and I would just like to say that being a reader, it doesn't bother me reading self..."
Wow! We need more of You, Marie ;) I like that. I support artists out of main stream as well.
RE: Jennifer's post (message 2259)In my opinion, her post should be mandatory reading for ALL new authors, be it traditional, indie, or self-published. It's straight to the point and most importantly it's viable and accurate information that is applicable across the board regardless of genre.
But it's of particular importance to those of us who are indie and self-published. As has been stated here, the gap is indeed closing between trad, and quality indie/SPA.
And that's when, as an Indie/SPA, it becomes even MORE vital to have one's house in order. Given the general decline in the trad world with regard to quality, indies stand a better chance of 'charging up that hill'. But to do so, one's work must be spot on - that means not only great writing, but no mechanical errors. It's much harder to gain a foothold with sloppy work!
Hand in hand with all that comes the other piece that many new SPA's either don't realize, don't understand, or don't care about. (I've been stewing about this piece for a while now; this next part makes me really, really angry, so, bear with me here.)
One's character must be impeccable, as well - particularly concerning how we interact with our readers. If anything, we must be MORE professional and polite than our trad counterparts.
Too many times, especially recently, I've seen thread after thread of SPA's behaving badly - attacking/doxxing readers, etc. Not just here on GR, but on other web-based platforms as well.
I have two words for that - Completely unacceptable.
I'm not sure what parts of 'reviews are for readers, don't intrude into that space' and 'if readers want a personal dialogue with you they will reach out to you' are difficult to understand. Seems pretty crystal clear to me.
Unfortunately, crossing those lines seems to be on the rise, which does absolutely no good whatsoever for anyone. All it accomplishes is to solidify the perception that "all" SPA's are cretins with horrible skills and zero manners; as a result, many readers will not even think about reading any offering from someone who's not traditionally published.
After reading about what some readers have experienced, I understand completely why they would feel that way. I would too.
The end result is that it makes it much harder for those of us who do take this craft of writing seriously, and who do respect the readers' space, to build a following when a few unprofessional individuals sully the whole 'Indie/SPA' set.
My opinion and $2 will buy you a Coca-Cola. But, I had to get it out.
The Just-About-Cocky Ms M wrote: "it seems elementary to me that the writer should be given a better deal..."It is hard enough to get readers to consider self-published mainstream novels; this kind of entitlement makes it much more difficult.
I should think satisfying the reader is the primary aim of putting something on the market.
The Just-About-Cocky Ms M wrote: "I have made it part of my reviewing mantra to publicly shame these BBAs every chance I get, as well as leave good, honest reviews for the Indies/SPAs who write well and are professionals. "And I am right there with you.
SPAs - the ones this sort of "author" hurts the very most are those SPAs who do publish good stories up to professional snuff. Authors should care about this problem of self-entitled, whiny wannabes even more than us readers. Sadly many turn a blind eye, or worse, encourage them.
Alicia wrote: "I should think satisfying the reader is the primary aim of putting something on the market."Because you've got common sense.
There's a whole host of SPAs who don't care one iota about what readers want, even up to holding readers and consumers in contempt, then whine about readers and consumers when their books don't sell.
Why in the universe they believe we should WANT to read their crap, or WANT to put money in the pocket of someone who shows they have zero respect for readers, is beyond me.
Frankly, I don't care if their book is the next blockbusting run away best seller - if they act like a complete jackass toward readers in public they're not getting MY money or time.
But SPA books that are good, by authors that respect readers and behave in a professional manner - those I'll blast about when I find them.
Alexandra wrote: "Frankly, I don't care if their book is the next blockbusting run away best seller - if they act like a complete jackass toward readers in public they're not getting MY money or time."Exactly!
Alexandra wrote: "But SPA books that are good, by authors that respect readers and behave in a professional manner - those I'll blast about when I find them...."Thanks.
And if they act like a complete jackass toward readers in public they're not getting MY money or time.
Nor mine.
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In case you did not notice, English is not my native tongue, French is. The first edition of the book you mention was put online in 2012, when my English was not as good as today. So, excuse me if I am not an English scholar. By the way, how is your written French? Plenty of readers found my stories more than adequate and entertaining (aggregate rating on Goodreads of 4.17 for 23 novels) and found my written English more than adequate. But, again, I say that the important thing in a book is the story itself, the characters, world building, plot and so forth.