Classics and the Western Canon discussion
Discussion - Homer, The Iliad
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Iliad through Book 8
Ha ha. I start reading Book 8 tonight.
Quite.
Achilles, back in Book 1, following his altercation with Agamemnon, who had demnded that Achikles give him his bedmate Briseis, had withdrawn himself and his men fom the rest of the Achaean force. Tbey will not fight. Achilles has been too deeply insulted.
Achilles has not been physically present in the iliad for a long time. But his presence looms over the story. He is mentioned in each and every book.
Achilles, remember, went so far as to have his mother, the godess Thetis, get Zeus to promise to make the Achaeans lose...until the Achaeans would properly acknowledge the worth of Achilles... And the audience who knew the story would remember... Especially when dealing with the gods, be careful what you ask for.
Hecto
Achilles, back in Book 1, following his altercation with Agamemnon, who had demnded that Achikles give him his bedmate Briseis, had withdrawn himself and his men fom the rest of the Achaean force. Tbey will not fight. Achilles has been too deeply insulted.
Achilles has not been physically present in the iliad for a long time. But his presence looms over the story. He is mentioned in each and every book.
Achilles, remember, went so far as to have his mother, the godess Thetis, get Zeus to promise to make the Achaeans lose...until the Achaeans would properly acknowledge the worth of Achilles... And the audience who knew the story would remember... Especially when dealing with the gods, be careful what you ask for.
Hecto
In my opinion Achilles is acting a bit like a spoiled brat pouting because he did not get his way. While his anger towards Agamemnon was justified and Agamemnon did act wrongly toward him. If he does not want to fight than he should just pack up and go home, instead of sitting back, and watching men die, refusing to do anything until they come to grovel at his feet and praise how awesome and wonderful they think he is and beg him to come back. Regardless of his feelings for Agamemnon, he is now acting just as self-involved as Agamemnon formerly had done, and in my opinion does not come off looking any better. He is a warrior, in the middle of a very long, bloody war, such personal feelings and animosity should be set aside. He ought to suck it up and do what he is there to do, fight.
I'm on the other side, naturally. I'm seeing Achilles as the most admirable character in the play.
Among the Greeks my personal favorite is Ajax, it seems as if he just does his thing and minds his own business. He fights when required, and admirably well, but does not really seem to get mixed up in all the other stuff going on.
Amanda wrote: "I'm a bit confused about where Achilles went off to...is he still sitting out the battle?"Yep. He's sitting by his ship. We'll see him again in two days when I post Book 9.
Silver wrote: "In my opinion Achilles is acting a bit like a spoiled brat pouting because he did not get his way. While his anger towards Agamemnon was justified and Agamemnon did act wrongly toward him. If he do..."Well, he was going to go home as you suggest, but he was talked out of it by his mother, Thetis, who told him "I will go to the snowy heights of Olympus, and tell this tale to Jove, if he will hear our prayer: meanwhile stay where you are with your ships, nurse your anger against the Achaeans, and hold aloof from fight."
As for "He ought to suck it up and do what he is there to do, fight," he said back in Book 1 that he isn't there to fight the Trojans, they've done nothing to him, he's there for booty, nothing more, nothing less, and why should he fight for more booty if Agamemnon assert the right to take it away at will?
As to watching the Greeks die, would any fewer have died if he had gone home? It wasn't his sitting there that killed them.
And my favorite is Nestor. He's been a brave warrior, he's proven himself in battle (and surviving to old age has proved his prowess), even now he enters into the fray when and as he can, but mostly now he has taken on the role of wise counselor, relying more on his integrity, concern, and depth of character than on his sword and spear. And he is respected and admired because his counsel is indeed wise. Being myself past the age of physical prowess I find myself more drawn to him than to any of the young bucks still proving their fighting prowess but yet to develop wisdom. (Does anybody think either Agamemnon or Achilles is truly wise?)
My favorite is Achilles. He is the central figure and it his tragedy, in a way, that is the subject of the book. He isn't wise, certainly, but his soul or heart is the largest and his predicament the most poignant. I'd go into that at more length, but it's in the next book that the predicament is given full expression.Agamemnon is a tall, good looking warrior who for some unspecified reason is in charge of the largest contingent. Did he did he win his kingdom or inherit it? Is he the leader through any special prowess or accidental wealth. It is not just Achilles who questions his courage, Diomedes does also. He stays back in the fighting, takes the greatest prizes, but shows no great generalship. Again, in Book IX his weaknesses are revealed again.
I am quite find of Helen. She shows such a believable range of emotions -- and expresses them. Respect, gentleness and self-reproach with Priam. Fury at Aphrodite. A combination of desire (?) and frustration (disgust?) with Paris. A different kind of respect with Hector.
And she's a girl. This is such a boys' book that the women are always a relief.
Okay, I am finally caught up. I have to say that as a first timer I find it hard to keep everything straight. I get the main ideas and topics, but I'm so glad that I have these threads to break it into digestible parts!I was wondering how long Achilles would be able to cool his heels. I am expecting his return to be a big dramatic reentrance.
In regards to Zeus and Hera, I have taken her from the beginning as Zues states recently “I am not quite so angry at Hera, since it is her custom to flout my will.” [408] I see Hera as the bitter ex-wife, except she happens to still be married to the other party. I tend to dismiss her as the bratty teenager who disagrees with the parent for the sake of disagreeing. I am sure Zues doesn't fully dismiss her, because to do so could be folly on his part. It reminds me of the quote, "hell hath no fury like a woman scorned". I wonder what her role will be in future chapters.
I also find it, I don't know strange, that these gods seem so flawed. They really are as bickering and petty as the humans, but with immortality and more power. It is kind of like the Gods are bored and the humans are the chess pieces in a game against wills. I don't know if that makes sense!From a religious stand point, it has always seemed to me that God was an entity to admire and attempt to emulate or at least strive to follow in the Gods footprints.
I'm not so sure that should be the case in this story. The people are more at the Gods mercy because they can very easily be the bullies.
Everyman wrote: "And my favorite is Nestor. He's been a brave warrior, he's proven himself in battle (and surviving to old age has proved his prowess), even now he enters into the fray when and as he can, but most..."
I must admit that as I have continued reading that my opinion of Nestor has changed...I think much better of him now.
I must admit that as I have continued reading that my opinion of Nestor has changed...I think much better of him now.
Lacy,Rudolph Otto in The Idea of the Holy defined God as "wholly other."
But this is not what the Homeric gods are like. They are almost the opposite of that -- they are present in their unique individual selves, they sleep with and sometimes rape humans. Their offspring may or may not have some divine properties. Helen is the daughter of Zeus, god-like only in her beauty. Hera is not only Zeus' wife but his sister. Humans can cause them pain.
Most important, they are athanatos -- deathless.
Lacy wrote: "I also find it, I don't know strange, that these gods seem so flawed. They really are as bickering and petty as the humans, but with immortality and more power...."
I read somewhere that the gods are projections of man's self-image.
If that's true...
I know that Bill has written about how this was a shame-based society. What kind of people were these? They took sacred oaths...and promptly broke them. So maybe they didn't fear the gods overmuch...or maybe they simply thought, meh, if it's fated, it's fated. They engage in behavior that seems rather terrible without blinking an eye. But it's a serious, serious concern was how much respect they got.
Anyway...IF the gods WERE a projection of man's self image....then men then (that was fun to write) must have been ... Selfish... Bickering... Petty..... Mmm, even though it's a man's world (Zeus has the power) it's surprising that the goddesses have quite a bit of power.
I read somewhere that the gods are projections of man's self-image.
If that's true...
I know that Bill has written about how this was a shame-based society. What kind of people were these? They took sacred oaths...and promptly broke them. So maybe they didn't fear the gods overmuch...or maybe they simply thought, meh, if it's fated, it's fated. They engage in behavior that seems rather terrible without blinking an eye. But it's a serious, serious concern was how much respect they got.
Anyway...IF the gods WERE a projection of man's self image....then men then (that was fun to write) must have been ... Selfish... Bickering... Petty..... Mmm, even though it's a man's world (Zeus has the power) it's surprising that the goddesses have quite a bit of power.
I myself prefer how "human" the gods within Greek culture are. I think it is more honest and "real" in a way. It makes more since than men striving for a form of perfection which in actuality it is impossible for a mortal being to ever obtain. I also think it makes for less hypocrisy because they are more open and honest about their flaws by projecting these flaws within the gods they worship and manifesting these flaws into something that is tangible. Instead of stunning there lust, or giving the outward appearance that they shun it, they recognize and personify it within Aphrodite. I think their imperfect gods are a form of recognizing that they themselves are imperfect.
What model would you have humans strive to be?
Or do you think humans should strive to be more or better than their natural inclinations?
Or do you think humans should strive to be more or better than their natural inclinations?
Adelle wrote: "What model would you have humans strive to be?Or do you think humans should strive to be more or better than their natural inclinations?"
I believe in recognizing and embracing our natural inclinations (that does not mean anything and everything goes) but we should not forget that as humans we are still just another animal. Our primitive/carnal instincts are not necessarily inherently bad, and should not be something we feel the need to altogether repress. We should not in fact be ashamed of our animalistic inclinations.
Silver wrote..I believe in recognizing and embracing our natural inclinations."
That sounds so very much like what I just read Agamemnon saying in Book 9: (view spoiler)
That sounds so very much like what I just read Agamemnon saying in Book 9: (view spoiler)
Gee, Adelle, I read that spoiler. You're such a modern girl. :-)
Adelle wrote: "Silver wrote..I believe in recognizing and embracing our natural inclinations."That sounds so very much like what I just read Agamemnon saying in Book 9: [spoilers removed]"
That is the essence of the idea, though people always seem to make the presumption when I say that we should embrace are natural inclinations, they equate with meaning we should act upon our every impulse. But that is not necessarily so. Recognizing that a particularly thought/desire is natural to have, and not being ashamed of having said thought/desire, is not one in the same with than acting out upon it. While we should embrace our primitive selves that does not mean living completely amorally.
For example, to use your above mentioned quote. Sex in itself I think should be viewed as a natural, beautiful and pure act. It should not be shunned, or made taboo of, a person should not feel shamed by their sexual desire. I think vows of chastity are unnatural and inhuman. But that does not mean I think men should go around raping women.
Lacy wrote: "I also find it, I don't know strange, that these gods seem so flawed."You raise one of the fascinating points about the Iliad. In my driving off-island today (it's always a stress to go from months of driving on our little island where three cars at the corner of Spring and Second Streets is a traffic jam, and where there isn't a single traffic light on the island to driving on the busy streets, expressways, traffic lights galore, and hoards of cars on the mainland, so it's nice to have something interesting to listen to) I was listening to several of Vandiver's lectures on the Iliad (from the Teaching Company course). One of these was specifically on the gods, how challenging it is for modern readers with our preconceptions of the meaning of a God to grok (my word, not hers) the Greek gods.
We can discuss aspects of this as we go along, and then see whether we can tie it all together as we get near the end of the book and have seen more of their interactions.
But it's obvious that the Greek gods don't share many of the attributes that we think of when we use the term God. They aren't all-loving, they aren't benevolent, they didn't create the world or humans, but both they and humans are part of the world, they aren't omniscient, they aren't omnipotent. All those things we tend to think of as attributes of God they lack.
Silver wrote: "...But that does not mean I think men should go around raping women. "
But it was apparently quite acceptable behavior there on the plains in front of Troy. Natural. Also natural for the gods. (the goddesses not so much. Double standards.)
But it was apparently quite acceptable behavior there on the plains in front of Troy. Natural. Also natural for the gods. (the goddesses not so much. Double standards.)
Bill wrote: "Gee, Adelle, I read that spoiler. You're such a modern girl. :-)"
A product of my time. Not that Greek word that I have to keep putting in italics. :).
Also, I read up to that speech, very nice, that Achilles made. Will have to mull that over.
A product of my time. Not that Greek word that I have to keep putting in italics. :).
Also, I read up to that speech, very nice, that Achilles made. Will have to mull that over.
Adelle wrote: "Silver wrote: "...But that does not mean I think men should go around raping women. "But it was apparently quite acceptable behavior there on the plains in front of Troy. Natural. Also natural ..."
I was simply trying to explain my own personal beliefs. It seemed to me that you had the impression that my view points were in fact validating this behavior, which was not the case.
Yes at that time period it was socially acceptable and viewed as "natural" but just because something is accepted by the majority does not make it inherently right.
Everyman wrote: All those things we tend to think of as attributes of God they lack. ..."
Supposedly they don't die.
Supposedly they don't die.
Adelle,Oh yes -- I'll say it again when the comments go up for it -- but Chapter IX is one of the high points of western literature. It's difficult to say too many good things about it.
You also wrote: What kind of people were these? They took sacred oaths...and promptly broke them. So maybe they didn't fear the gods overmuch...or maybe they simply thought, meh, if it's fated, it's fated. They engage in behavior that seems rather terrible without blinking an eye. But it's a serious, serious concern was how much respect they got.
As Everyman pointed out a while ago -- like a street gang.
Or maybe it's just people. I'm not of the impression that after over a hundred years of mass murder we're in any position to criticize them: Leopold II in the Congo, the murder of the Christian Armenians, Stalin in Ukraine, the holocaust, Pol Pot, Bosnia, Rwanda, Darfur.
We're talking about people. I think too many expectations are unrealistic.
Anyway...IF the gods WERE a projection of man's self image....then men then (that was fun to write) must have been ... Selfish... Bickering... Petty.....
Lustful, violent, vain -- and every once in a while generous, loving and creative.
Mmm, even though it's a man's world (Zeus has the power) it's surprising that the goddesses have quite a bit of power.
That was my first comment with regard to Book I. And it's very interesting that military strategy was the province of a goddess
And I'm wondering SHOULD a society encourge people to strive to be "more"/"better" than simply living within the parameters of their "natural" inclinations? Yes, we have natural urges like other animals. But do we want to be no more than animals, albeit animals that can talk and that were blessed with opposable thumbs?
Striving is encouraged in the Iliad.
1) to gain respect from others
2) the stories Nestor alludes to of how great the previous generations were
3) the poem itself celebrating/memorializing...which equals honoring....Achilles and his anger.
I'm asking what are the criteria for determining role models?
Some cultures do use the prescripts of religion to inspire (or scare) the population into being "better men."
The Marines have a different philosophy to inspire the rank and file "to be all you can be.". (different end goal, too).
I'm asking, if the gods aren't role models worthy of emulating (and I don't think most of us would judge these gods worthy of emulation---because they are too naturally human), then who IS going to be held up as role models? How does society decide? What are the criteria?
Here in the Iliad, we seem to have Achilles and Hector.
But it's the story of Achilles. What's he got that the rest ain't got?
Striving is encouraged in the Iliad.
1) to gain respect from others
2) the stories Nestor alludes to of how great the previous generations were
3) the poem itself celebrating/memorializing...which equals honoring....Achilles and his anger.
I'm asking what are the criteria for determining role models?
Some cultures do use the prescripts of religion to inspire (or scare) the population into being "better men."
The Marines have a different philosophy to inspire the rank and file "to be all you can be.". (different end goal, too).
I'm asking, if the gods aren't role models worthy of emulating (and I don't think most of us would judge these gods worthy of emulation---because they are too naturally human), then who IS going to be held up as role models? How does society decide? What are the criteria?
Here in the Iliad, we seem to have Achilles and Hector.
But it's the story of Achilles. What's he got that the rest ain't got?
This sounds like it could have a tie in with the previous discussion about how an individual defines morality.
Everyman wrote: "Lacy wrote: "I also find it, I don't know strange, that these gods seem so flawed."You raise one of the fascinating points about the Iliad. In my driving off-island today (it's always a stress ..."
Thank you Everyman, I like the way you explain it.
It seems like almost everyone has already read this but me, but could Achilles surprise us later? I mean I know how the story ends, but not much of the in between. His character has been MIA for a bit. Could he come back and surprise us? I'm guessing he won't.Also, it may be the story of Achilles, but that doesn't necessarily equal liking him or having empathy for him. Although, personally, I haven't decided yet! I read a book last year called Bel Ami by Guy de Maupassant and the main character was a cad, but it didn't stop me from wanting to read what happened to him!
Lacy wrote: "It seems like almost everyone has already read this but me, but could Achilles surprise us later? I mean I know how the story ends, but not much of the in between. His character has been MIA for ..."Without giving anything away I will only say that I have finished the book and my opinion upon him has remained unchanged. He is not the worst in the book, but I never grow to particularly like him. I personally do not find his actions and behavior to be truly all that admirable.
Surprise us how, exactly, Lacy. I've known the story since I was 8 so I'm not clear what you mean. And when you say you know how the story ends, I'm not sure what you mean. It doesn't end with the Trojan Horse. That's after the end of The Iliad.Adelle,
What is admired in the Iliad is
1) to be wise in counsel and skillful in generalship
2) to be strong and courageous in battle
3) to be skillful in weaving
4) a certain grace and courtesy (Helen with Priam and vice versa, Achilles with Phoinix)
4) to love -- one's wife, children, slave girls, one's friends and tutors
5) physical beauty
6) an accumulation of tripods, cauldrons, lands, horses, armor and spears, women
7) noble birth
8) sports
9) possibly the arts (we see Achilles singing next book)
10) giving the gods their due
11) persuasive oratory
And while women are clearly objects of desire, if you want one who happens to either be married already or someone's slave girl, it's best to think twice before going after her, whether she's willing or not.
I'm sure there's more, but it's time for my nap. :-)
Bill wrote: "Surprise us how, exactly, Lacy. I've known the story since I was 8 so I'm not clear what you mean. And when you say you know how the story ends, I'm not sure what you mean. It doesn't end with the ..."LOL I love your list.
Silver wrote: "Lacy wrote: "It seems like almost everyone has already read this but me, but could Achilles surprise us later? I mean I know how the story ends, but not much of the in between. His character has ..."Thank you for your input Silver. =0)
At 32 Bill wrote: "Or maybe it's just people. I'm not of the impression that after over a hundred years of mass murder we're in any position to criticize them: Leopold II in the Congo, the murder of the Christian Armenians, Stalin in Ukraine, the holocaust, Pol Pot, Bosnia, Rwanda, Darfur.
..."
I don't think the numbers matter in your argument, because that's simply better technology. Diomedes with an AK47 would have been evn more lethal. But are people inclined towards violence? Absolutely. There's a scene in an upcoming Book which involves a description of a shield. Even in the peaceful scene described....there is a hint of violence to come. Someone wrote something along the lines of "War is violence, and peace is the calm before the next violence."
But it seems to me that the differnce is that the massive death events (??? I couldn't think of appropriate wording) you cited were blatently for base reasons: we don't like your kind of people, or we want your land...or gold...or rubber... Granted, the Greeks were lining their pockets hile they were filling the holds of those hollow ships, but in the Iliad BOTH sides hold that the Greeks are there for time.... Paris abused the revered law of Zeus, Father of Hospitality.
So Zeus will use the Greeks to punish the Trojans and many men will die...and give glory to those who bring the darkness that covers their eyes.
We're in a position to criticize them, or so it seems to me, because we no longer equate killing with a wholesome, wholely acceptable, way to gain glory. Am I being naive?
If you say we are being hypocritical, I say it's preferble to be hypocritical becuse it shows that we are ashamed, not proud, of wholescale killing, and then there is at least a chance that we can learn to alter our behavior--- through more worthy role models or better rules for living or better reasoning.
Yes, if we have the power, killing people we don't like or who have stuff we want or who have threatened us is maybe natural...birds do it, bees do it..... But we're people.... If we can just find the proper motivation we could be so much more than we are. And we know it. That, I believe, is why we are drawn to Achilles.
Did the Greeks have any generous, loving, creative gods, do you remember?
..."
I don't think the numbers matter in your argument, because that's simply better technology. Diomedes with an AK47 would have been evn more lethal. But are people inclined towards violence? Absolutely. There's a scene in an upcoming Book which involves a description of a shield. Even in the peaceful scene described....there is a hint of violence to come. Someone wrote something along the lines of "War is violence, and peace is the calm before the next violence."
But it seems to me that the differnce is that the massive death events (??? I couldn't think of appropriate wording) you cited were blatently for base reasons: we don't like your kind of people, or we want your land...or gold...or rubber... Granted, the Greeks were lining their pockets hile they were filling the holds of those hollow ships, but in the Iliad BOTH sides hold that the Greeks are there for time.... Paris abused the revered law of Zeus, Father of Hospitality.
So Zeus will use the Greeks to punish the Trojans and many men will die...and give glory to those who bring the darkness that covers their eyes.
We're in a position to criticize them, or so it seems to me, because we no longer equate killing with a wholesome, wholely acceptable, way to gain glory. Am I being naive?
If you say we are being hypocritical, I say it's preferble to be hypocritical becuse it shows that we are ashamed, not proud, of wholescale killing, and then there is at least a chance that we can learn to alter our behavior--- through more worthy role models or better rules for living or better reasoning.
Yes, if we have the power, killing people we don't like or who have stuff we want or who have threatened us is maybe natural...birds do it, bees do it..... But we're people.... If we can just find the proper motivation we could be so much more than we are. And we know it. That, I believe, is why we are drawn to Achilles.
Did the Greeks have any generous, loving, creative gods, do you remember?
at 32 Bill wrote: And it's very interesting that military strategy was the province of a goddess ..."
did you happen to notice that Hector's wife (her name is too hard to spell) gave pretty good military advice?
did you happen to notice that Hector's wife (her name is too hard to spell) gave pretty good military advice?
Bill wrote: "Surprise us how, exactly, Lacy. I've known the story since I was 8 so I'm not clear what you mean. And when you say you know how the story ends, I'm not sure what you mean. It doesn't end with the ..."My comment about surprise was in response to Adelle's comment in message 33 about role models.
I guess I don't know how it ends, but I was refering to the fact that I know Achilles is going to die young. I was assuming that his death would be towards the end of the story.
Adelle wrote: Did the Greeks have any generous, loving, creative gods, do you remember? ."The Muses perhaps
And maybe Dionysus who just liked to have a good time.
Also I think Apollo should get some points on the creative side.
I think many of the gods at diffeent points exhibit elements of these traits, but are any of them completely so all the time? No, I would say not.
Adelle wrote, If you say we are being hypocritical, I say it's preferable to be hypocritical because it shows that we are ashamed, not proud, of whole scale killing, and then there is at least a chance that we can learn to alter our behavior--- through more worthy role models or better rules for living or better reasoning. Did you ever see "Plenty"? I saw it on stage, and I didn't see the film.
On stage, in one scene, a former diplomat, fired because of his wife's bad behavior, is now working for an insurance company. In thinking back nostalgically about the diplomatic corps, he says, "At least we were hypocrites!"
I've always loved that line.
But personally Adelle I think humans are failed experiment, a bad mix of a highly developed brain and emotions appropriate for avoiding mammoths. It seems naive to me to think otherwise -- but then, who would have ever imagined that the earth was round and revolved around the sun? Or that you can't know position and velocity at the same time? Or that people would want to carry around tiny phones and send texts?
I think in many ways are society is less violent than we were in the past. Of course, I also think that when you balance that with the technology of killing -- I don't know it will ultimately make that much difference. There's Steven Pinker's new book that says we're less violent now than we were before. Maybe he's right.
One of the most fascinating things about the psychological study of morality is that after a 100 years of studies, what people believe to be moral has very little correlation with how they behave. People always assumed there was and worked very hard to prove it. They've never been able to.
Yes, some people believe in certain moral principles and follow them. But others don't believe in them also follow them. Some people who believe in moral principles are thoroughly immoral. And some people have no morals and behave accordingly. It's highly counterintuitive, but so is quantum physics.
There's certainly love and generosity in Homeric culture, a great deal of it -- but there's no god that was what we imagine angels to be I don't know there were gods that stood for moral principles.
Lacy wrote: "Bill wrote: "Surprise us how, exactly, Lacy. I've known the story since I was 8 so I'm not clear what you mean. And when you say you know how the story ends, I'm not sure what you mean. It doesn't ..."
Yes....but what does he do with his life before he dies? That is what is important.
Yes....but what does he do with his life before he dies? That is what is important.
Adelle wrote: Yes...but what does he do with his life before he dies? That is what is important."I'm hoping to find out by the time this book is finished!
Silver wrote: "Adelle wrote: Did the Greeks have any generous, loving, creative gods, do you remember? ."
The Muses perhaps
And maybe Dionysus who just liked to have a good time.
Also I think Apollo ..."
You are right! Every once in a while there was a god with positive traits. Mmm..I'm thinking now that Promethius would be in tht category too.
The Muses perhaps
And maybe Dionysus who just liked to have a good time.
Also I think Apollo ..."
You are right! Every once in a while there was a god with positive traits. Mmm..I'm thinking now that Promethius would be in tht category too.
Bill wrote: "..". Need I say more?
Lol...but no, i just got tired of copying and pasting.
Bill wrote: "But personally Adelle I think humans are failed experiment, a bad mix of a big brain and immature emotions. But, hey, I could be wrong. "
When we fail it's because, like Zeus said, we manage to make it worse than it has to be...and it's easier to blame the gods than to make the effort to improve ourselves.
isn't part of the message of the iliad that we are all going to die, check your list frequently while you are alive (yes, nice list), revise your list as needed!!!!! ... like Achilles did, fight courageously.
EDITED: I had to take out empathy. I had misconstrued.
Lol...but no, i just got tired of copying and pasting.
Bill wrote: "But personally Adelle I think humans are failed experiment, a bad mix of a big brain and immature emotions. But, hey, I could be wrong. "
When we fail it's because, like Zeus said, we manage to make it worse than it has to be...and it's easier to blame the gods than to make the effort to improve ourselves.
isn't part of the message of the iliad that we are all going to die, check your list frequently while you are alive (yes, nice list), revise your list as needed!!!!! ... like Achilles did, fight courageously.
EDITED: I had to take out empathy. I had misconstrued.
(my word! It's tomorrow already!)
Yes. It's 2:25 in NYC. I intended to get to bed early :-)sn't part of the message of the iliad that we are all going to die, check your list frequently while you are alive (yes, nice list), revise your list as needed!!!!! ... like Achilles did, fight courageously, have empathy, etc.
They're lovely sentiments. I'm not sure they're Homer's. They feel modern. I'm pretty sure Homer believed in death, but I'm not sure he was making a point about it. And as for the gods, well sometimes I think they're at fault and sometimes I think we are. :-)
Bill wrote: "Yes. It's 2:25 in NYC. I intended to get to bed early :-)
Early. That's so subjective. :)
They're lovely sentiments. I'm not sure they're Homer's. They feel modern. I'm pretty sure Homer believed in death, but I'm not sure he was making a point about it. And as for the gods, well sometimes I think they're at fault and sometimes I think we are. :-)
Ah, darn. I suspect you're right. And this ... right after I resolved to try to step back and not project my thoughts/feelings/sentiments onto Homer's characters.
Long ramblings/(no spoilers):
(view spoiler)
Early. That's so subjective. :)
They're lovely sentiments. I'm not sure they're Homer's. They feel modern. I'm pretty sure Homer believed in death, but I'm not sure he was making a point about it. And as for the gods, well sometimes I think they're at fault and sometimes I think we are. :-)
Ah, darn. I suspect you're right. And this ... right after I resolved to try to step back and not project my thoughts/feelings/sentiments onto Homer's characters.
Long ramblings/(no spoilers):
(view spoiler)
Final thoughts regarding Book 8.
Power. Zeus: "then he will know how far my power tops all other gods'. / Come, try me, immortals, so all of you can learn" (Fagles 8.19).
I was struck by how very similiar these words were to the words of Agamemnon (Fagles 1.218): "But I, I will be there [to take Briseis] / so you can learn just how much greater I am than you."
Pity. I didn't understand why the goddess were suddenly proclaiming their pity for the men of Greece and Troy. They haven't shown much pity...although they seem to want their side or their chosen champion to win...but that's different than pity.
Zeus. I had to laugh. After admonishing the gods and goddess not to aid the Greeks or Trojans, he says to Athene, "Nothing I said was meant in earnest--trust me" (Fagles 9.about 45). LOL. No wonder the humans don't always trust him.
Women. About the worst insult available with which to insult warriors: "Now they will disgrace you, a woman after all. Away with you, girl! ... Be men!"
Homer again weaving in touching domestic scenes with scenes of war: "As Ajax raised the rim, the archer would mark a target,/ shoot through the lines--the man he hit dropped dead/ on the spot--and quick as a youngster ducking under/ his mother's skirts he'd duck under Ajax' shield/ and the gleaming shield would hide him head to toe" (Fagles 9.305). How incongruous!
You know what I love about Agamemnon? That he is consistently Agamemnon. Agamemnon, praising Teucer to the skies: "If Zeus with his storm-shield and Queen Athene/ ever let me plunder the strong walls of Troy/
you are the first, the first after myself" (Fagles 9.328).
????? what outrage? Athene says, "But Father rages now, that hard black heart,/ always the old outrage," (Fagles 9.412). Does anyone know what "old outrage" Athene is referring to?
Again...???...an aspect of how what is given to one side must come at the expense of the other side??? like time??? glory to one comes at the expense of the other??? As though the Greeks thought of life as some sort of Zero-sum game:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero%E2%...
"...drawing the dark night across the grain-giving earth./
For the men of Troy the day went down against their will/
but not the Argives--what a blessing, how they prayed /
for the nightfall coming on across their lines" (Fagles 9.565)
"the South Wind...no friend to shepherds, better than night to theives" (Fagels 3.10)
(I think I'm gone for a week.)
Power. Zeus: "then he will know how far my power tops all other gods'. / Come, try me, immortals, so all of you can learn" (Fagles 8.19).
I was struck by how very similiar these words were to the words of Agamemnon (Fagles 1.218): "But I, I will be there [to take Briseis] / so you can learn just how much greater I am than you."
Pity. I didn't understand why the goddess were suddenly proclaiming their pity for the men of Greece and Troy. They haven't shown much pity...although they seem to want their side or their chosen champion to win...but that's different than pity.
Zeus. I had to laugh. After admonishing the gods and goddess not to aid the Greeks or Trojans, he says to Athene, "Nothing I said was meant in earnest--trust me" (Fagles 9.about 45). LOL. No wonder the humans don't always trust him.
Women. About the worst insult available with which to insult warriors: "Now they will disgrace you, a woman after all. Away with you, girl! ... Be men!"
Homer again weaving in touching domestic scenes with scenes of war: "As Ajax raised the rim, the archer would mark a target,/ shoot through the lines--the man he hit dropped dead/ on the spot--and quick as a youngster ducking under/ his mother's skirts he'd duck under Ajax' shield/ and the gleaming shield would hide him head to toe" (Fagles 9.305). How incongruous!
You know what I love about Agamemnon? That he is consistently Agamemnon. Agamemnon, praising Teucer to the skies: "If Zeus with his storm-shield and Queen Athene/ ever let me plunder the strong walls of Troy/
you are the first, the first after myself" (Fagles 9.328).
????? what outrage? Athene says, "But Father rages now, that hard black heart,/ always the old outrage," (Fagles 9.412). Does anyone know what "old outrage" Athene is referring to?
Again...???...an aspect of how what is given to one side must come at the expense of the other side??? like time??? glory to one comes at the expense of the other??? As though the Greeks thought of life as some sort of Zero-sum game:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero%E2%...
"...drawing the dark night across the grain-giving earth./
For the men of Troy the day went down against their will/
but not the Argives--what a blessing, how they prayed /
for the nightfall coming on across their lines" (Fagles 9.565)
"the South Wind...no friend to shepherds, better than night to theives" (Fagels 3.10)
(I think I'm gone for a week.)
After which, he goes up to his skybox to watch the contest, and not only to watch but to throw his thunderbolts to aid Hector and the Trojans. But why does he not punish Apollo for intervening and diverting Teucer’s arrow from killing Hector? Didn’t he forbid aiding either side? Interesting little episode, or just an unimportant aside?
Zeus is indeed fulfilling his promise to Thetis, giving strength to the Trojans and fear to the Greeks. He even stops Hera and Athena from intervening, but I love his comment on Hera, his wife: “I am not quite so angry at Hera, since it is her custom to flout my will.” [408]
Once again, night halts the battle (no night vison goggles in 1200 BC!), but things don’t look good for the Greeks, do they?