Iliad through Book 8

[[deleted user]]

Bill wrote: "Adelle,

That's one possible interpretation of what's happening. Are the gods simply personifications of human traits -- Agamemnon's ate , Helen's desire. There is the mythopoeic consciousness --..."

Yes, I like to consider from a number of angles. I like background material. I like side-material. I TRY to see it from within the parameters of the text.

[Rosemary]

Patrice wrote: "This poem is like a Rosharch test!"

LOL, and I like Odysseus the best.

[Rosemary]

Silver wrote: "Adelle wrote: Did the Greeks have any generous, loving, creative gods, do you remember? ."

The Muses perhaps

And maybe Dionysus who just liked to have a good time.

Also I think Apollo ..."

Also Hestia.

In my opinion . . . neither the Greeks nor much of anyone else has ever had an entirely generous and loving God, because life has never exhibited any signs of being controlled by one. Christianity came the closest, and it's caused problems to the point that theodicy is an entire branch of theology.

I think sometimes gods are a reflection of men and sometimes gods are more, mm, abstract and aspirational. An image of what we wish mankind could be. The Greek gods are more the former and the Christian god more the latter, though I think each has aspects of each. (Certainly Joel Osteen's approach to God would be an example of the Christian God as 'one of us.')

Anyway, all this to say that I don't think that the petty, morally neutral (or reprehensible) behavior of the Greek gods says that Greek society was any worse than ours, just that they expressed it differently.

[Silver]

Rosemary wrote: "Silver wrote: "Adelle wrote: Did the Greeks have any generous, loving, creative gods, do you remember? ."

The Muses perhaps

And maybe Dionysus who just liked to have a good time.

Also I thin..."

I think it is also important to remember that the gods are not just a refection of the people and society, but the environment that they live in. The Greeks lived in difficult times and were subject to hardships that we do not have to deal with. They were much more at the mercy of the elements. One bad winter or unexpected drought and your family could starve to death. This is not the kind of world which would incline people to believe in altogether generous, loving and benevolent gods. The seeming pettiness within the gods I think bears not only a reflection of the men, but also a reflection of how harsh and unpredictable nature can be, as the gods were the ones whom were believed to control these forces and elements. So the gods are not directly mirrors for just the people and society but for their physical environment as well.

[Aparajita]

Regarding the gods,: a) I agree with the last comment thta provide much needed comic RELIEF.
b) this sort of characterisation is common in a lot of polytheistic religions - you pray to them for strength, blessings, a good harvest, success etc but they are definitely not the embodiments of perfection that Christians would like to believe their God is-they are similar to human beings, have similar traits both positive and negative , but are different from humans in that they have superhuman strength or abilities and are immortal. This is the way they are supposed to be, and this is what also allows us to look at them in a humorous light.I am an Indian -Hindu(though atheist by belief; but with a lot of interest in pre-christian mythologies), and a lot of our gods display lust jealousy, wrath but also generosity and bravery, and a lot of our stories are similar except that our gods tend to be abit mor concerned with virtue etc....but we don't really emulate gods but other virtuous figures in our mythology , who in turn might be deified...I don't know what the greeks emulated, but it seems like a certain code of bravery and their definitions of honour. I love the way gods are humanised here, though they do seem to be bickering a bit TOO much, then again it is a WAR epic..and the seed of the war lay in some petty divine domestic strife
Frankly, the God of the Old Testament seems like quite a violent and jealous figure too- since He does not allow for worship of any other divine figure- why? .. so let's just say that senses of violence were different in the past, since even Judaism and christianity in their texts deny that people can believe in other gods and religions wihout being "damned for eternity"...not that it makes much sene debating these in a thread on the Illiad.
As far as I remember I don't think Achilles dies in this epic..but I read the whole thing a long time back...he gets pretty philosophical in the next book though.

[Aparajita]

I guess the gods were generous when they had enough heifers sacrificed to them...and they seem to be pretty generous with their sexual favours...

[[deleted user]]

Patrice wrote: "loved what Zeus said to Athena because it was so true to life. A father who adores his favorite daughter. He tries to sound tough and threatens and blusters and then the daughter bats her eyes and says "really daddy? will you be so mean?" And he melts and says "of course not to you darling". ."

I love that, too! (I may have been a favorite daughter. LOL. Maybe all daughters are favorite daughters, eh?)

[Everyman]

Patrice wrote: "Do you see specific parallels between Greek and Hindu gods?"

They were very definitely there. I understand that both Greek and the languages of India originated from the same indo-European original language, and that there are some very close similarities. So it would make sense that they had some shared religious origins, too.

[Aparajita]

I wouldn't really say that there is one on one equivalence, but the similarity is in the way people seem to relate to divinty..

[Aparajita]

Oh, Hinduism has it's own mythology:)- I think the difference between the two word for me would be that religion is basically about the beliefs, practices etc.. and is current, and mythology would be the stories, legends etc. and it develops- for example, there were several gods worshipped say 1000 years back who are not worshipped now..