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How many pages makes a book?
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I have read books that are 200 pages long and books that are 600 pages long. The page count does not change the book itself.
I hate books that are filled with filler. The page number shouldn't matter when writing.
Wordcount makes a novel, not pagecount. Get in the habit of counting words if you want to discuss lengths. Even when you say 'standard-sized font' I have no idea what you mean.And especially with epublishing, length mostly matters so that readers have a sense of pacing and award committees know which category you fit in. Novel-length starts at about 40k-50k words, but only Middle Grade and short romances (from trad. publishers) tend to be that long. 90k words is pretty standard for genre fiction because the bound paperback hits the sweet spot for shelf space consumption. Yes, standard modern lengths were arrived at for bookstore shelf space reasons.
I believe 150 (YA/TWEEN/Children and up. People have very short attention spans today, so I personally would not go over 300. Best wishes to you.
These days, with the advent of e-books? None. Seriously though, it takes as many pages as it takes to get to the end.
M. wrote: "These days, with the advent of e-books? None. Seriously though, it takes as many pages as it takes to get to the end."
That's how I see it, too. I think it's interesting how so many things have changed from the traditional rules of book format now that e-readers are becoming the main platform.
It's probably worth pointing out that e-readers aren't anywhere near the main platform. When people talk about the shocking growth of e-readers they're referring to rate of growth rather than an overall number, which is still well under 25%. Nobody knows exactly where the number is going to level off-- could be at about 30% (the publishers would like that), or 50% or 90%-- and it may yet take years to reach that degree of saturation.
I don't think you should ever try and make a story fit what someone considers a standard. You write your story. If it's 100,000 words or 15,000 words the story has to be complete.When we write, I think we worry about making the work conform more than we worry about making the story work. My first book, I just wrote until the story was done. On my second book, I've spent more time worrying about the word count than the story. I've tried to get away from that so that I can concentrate on what the story is saying rather than how long it takes to tell it.
Books will no more become a thing of the past than candles. :-) Very wealthy classrooms are handing out iPads to third graders. Believe me when I say mainstream America, at least, is lagging years behind and many, many people still value the ability to trade and resell paper books (and buy used books). I am a huge fan of ebooks and haven't purchased a paper book since I got my Kindle in the second wave four years ago. And the simple fact is, for 2012, if you think the ebook market is the majority of readers, you have been misled. It's large enough to make a living from, certainly, but the majority of people I meet think my Kindle is a novelty.In any case, back on topic, check out http://www.antipope.org/charlie/blog-...
R.S. wrote: "I think that the digital revolution will not slow down or diminish at all. Even classrooms are handing out ipads for children in third grade. It's a rather hard thing to accept, but books will soon..."I have to agree with you. We are seeing the beginnings of a transition from paper to digital. There were four big name bookstores in my town and today all of them are gone. The days of wandering through a bookstore, hanging out while browsing magazines are gone.
I don't think paper books will disappear, but the move from paper to digital will not reverse. It's the same as 8-track to cassette tape to CD and now to data stick.
It'll, in time, over take paper and with e-book readers being priced lower with more features more people will adopt it.
R.S. wrote: "It's sad to say that those old book stores will soon become a thing of the past. Any conversations or new friends to meet will be gone and replaced by the screen your looking at. The good thing abo..."We could form a writers 'meet up'. All of us could get together and hang out at a book store, then... oh wait.
Getting back to word count, I have it on a few very reliable industry inside sources that books with more than 80K words are very hard to sell. EBooks make it a bit easier, as a publisher's decision is also based upon the cost to produce a print book, which includes page count. Paper is expensive. Printing is expensive. Transportation of print books is expensive and all of that weighs against how many copies the publisher expects to sell, and how many will be returned. Keeping your word count down, especially for a debut writer, is a good way to give yourself better odds when you begin to pitch your work.
Richard wrote: "Getting back to word count, I have it on a few very reliable industry inside sources that books with more than 80K words are very hard to sell. EBooks make it a bit easier, as a publisher's decisio..."It does make a difference obviously more words, more pages all means more cost for the book. The digital age does make that less of an issue because making an ebook is the same process whether it is 5 words or 50,000 words.
The biggest difference is the editing. The longer the book the higher cost of having it properly edited.
Richard wrote: "Getting back to word count, I have it on a few very reliable industry inside sources that books with more than 80K words are very hard to sell. EBooks make it a bit easier, as a publisher's decisio..."That's really interesting. I'm more inclined to buy a bigger book because I can immerse myself in that world for a long time.
Writers like Tom Clancy and Stephen King are good at creating longer books.
I just completed the entire GRR Martin Song of Fire and Ice series, so I enjoy long reads as well -- 3,064 pages worth. However; even Stephen King, through his Cemetery Dance publishing outfit, is producing novellas right now, and the industry, from what I can tell, shrinks away from longer works by debut writers for all the reasons listed above in the discussion. My own books were generally 25% larger before editing down, and the one I'm pitching right now is 77K words. Page count, especially once a work is formatted according to the submission guidelines publishers and agents provide, is not important at all, except to readers, once published.
I too enjoy long reads. The size of a book would never cause me to not pick it up if the story interested me.
I read a comment on a website that the reviewer would not accept a book less than 350 pages. As though anything less was unworthy.
As many pages as it needs. Every story is different - some are short, some are long. I'm happy reading books that are a hundred pages - and others that are 4,000 pages.
Are we speaking of manuscript submissions here, or reviews?
Nope, not reviews. Just books. Yet, from what everyone has said the predominate view is that it's not page count, but simply that the story is done when the story is done regardless of the number of pages.
Then you have a first draft. The fun part is over and the work begins. If you are self-publishing, it doesn't matter as much, what your word count is, but even there, the current market, determined by what is currently selling in the genre, should help guide you towards a sale-able word count. Not many readers who work have time for 500 pages, no matter how absorbing. If you can pare down your tale to mirror successful novels in your genre, it should be easier to sell. If you're writing for your own enjoyment or to expiate demons, then you will be done when the story's told. Page counts are determined by how the words are formatted and printed out. eBooks' page counts vary depending upon the font size displayed, etc. Also, because so many submissions are now sent through email (and because it is independent of how the book will be formatted and if it will be printed), word count has become the industry standard for book length.
It's amazing how dialogue pads out a 'page count' while leaving a wordcount looking exactly the same. This is why they leave determining the pagecount to experts in the big companies.
Chrysoula wrote: "It's amazing how dialogue pads out a 'page count' while leaving a wordcount looking exactly the same. This is why they leave determining the pagecount to experts in the big companies."Amazing point! That's why experts are needed, I guess.
Page count, word count, anything count. All I look for in a book or story that I decide to read is a good story. Whether it is 5 pages or 500 pages, I'm always sad to see the end of a good story.
Bridget wrote: "Page count, word count, anything count. All I look for in a book or story that I decide to read is a good story. Whether it is 5 pages or 500 pages, I'm always sad to see the end of a good story."Well said.
Bridget wrote: "Page count, word count, anything count. All I look for in a book or story that I decide to read is a good story. Whether it is 5 pages or 500 pages, I'm always sad to see the end of a good story."So very true! I agree completely.
Chrysoula wrote: "It's probably worth pointing out that e-readers aren't anywhere near the main platform. When people talk about the shocking growth of e-readers they're referring to rate of growth rather than an ov..."Very true - this morning...
I'm not sure we can rely on this stabilizing at some point. eBooks are a disruptive technology. They tend to undermine the best laid plans of mice and major publishing houses.
When I see an eBook for sale at 160% the price of the corresponding paperback, I don't buy the paperback, I buy from some other author - in eBook format. Pricing from the big six is driving customers to eBooks, just not their eBooks. The reported numbers fail to capture that.
The CEO of Hatchette UK was remarking yesterday on the 250% growth they saw in eBooks and expects it to settle at 50/50.
He's missing the point.
Replace the word 'eBook' with "MP3". Replace HardCover and paperback with vinyl and CD. Digital music overtook physical sales last year and the pace is still accelerating.
I think our industry is already reaching the tipping point where publishers are looking at a losing proposition in print. Too many of them are reporting reduced income from that side of the company while still posting overall increases to EBIT - mainly due to increased digital sales.
It's developing it's own gravity...
The news from Publishers Weekly last week, when the majors' earnings postings came in, make it clear: sales are down overall, but profits are up, due to eBook sales. This is the future for any publisher that wants to remain a viable business, so guess where the effort will be assigned. I see POD becoming the ONLY avenue for print books in five years, besides small, regional presses. Even those I believe will make the shift to stay competitive.
I'm strictly Old-School, when it comes to reading. I loves me my paper and smelly ink; but this week, I responded to an offer from the NY Times and Barnes & Noble, to get a free Nook simple Touch with an eSubscription to the paper. It cost me less than half what my print monthly cost me, and I love the damned Nook so much I just bought a book I've been meaning to read. The eInk display is so amazing, I'm already half-way through in two sittings. If I could embrace the new tech reading, then anyone can, and probably will.
Richard wrote: "The news from Publishers Weekly last week, when the majors' earnings postings came in, make it clear: sales are down overall, but profits are up, due to eBook sales. This is the future for any publ..."I also love my paper books, to a certain extent. My C.S. Forester books have started to fall apart from repeated re-reading. Had I kept them in better shape, they might have ended up on Antiques Roadshow.
Richard, you are probably right about POD. The CEO of Bertelsmann AG has just announced that they are focusing on the digital side of the business. That goes double for their subsidiary - Random House - who has been leaving a lot of money on the table.
Most big publishers are still trying to figure out a way to protect their paper sales. RH belongs to a bigger firm that seems to have stepped back far enough from the trees to see the forest. They may well end up leading the big six into the future.
You can write more pages with way fewer words if you use a 24 point font (lol). Of course, its word count that defines a book. When my first publisher went bust and I was snatched up immediately by a new publisher I was asked by them to add 30,000 words. Which I gladly did.
With my first book I was aiming for 500 pages. I didn't get there, but for me it wasn't about how many pages I could produce.
I wasn't going to throw in filler to fill up 500 pages. I stopped when I felt the story was whole and complete so finished where it finished.
Some people are happy with 200 pages, others less.
I understand that formatting can make a difference, but I'm referring to single spaced, standard size font.
What are your views?