Goodreads Librarians Group discussion
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Amazon is going away as a data source
Lisa: I dont think you have anything to worry about right now..the past 400+ posts in a nutshell:1) Test the tools, but don't worry about clearing your list (yet) they are updating the DB with 14M records. After that import, we will be notified as to when to dig in for real.
2) Kindle only editions are NOT included in the Amazon Ban. That book info will continue to be received from Amazon
3) When you do rescue books, use a non-commerce site. Libraries, worldcat = good. Barnes & Noble = Bad.
If an existing image is sourced from Barnes and Noble is that "safe" or should we replace it if we have the book on hand?
Mod
It won't be removed on Jan. 30 if it was imported from B&N during the time period that GR was doing so.
rivka wrote: "It never worked that way. The problem is more like this: users searched by ISBN or title. Book imported from Amazon with title, author, ISBN and nothing else. Users edited book to add more info. But it still shows up (and will unless an import or rescue changes it) as sourced by Amazon."Thanks for the clarification - as I said, I was purely speculating.
I seem to have over a hundred on my personal rescue list. O_oI've poinked in a few on my phone to rescue them, but don't have cover art at the mo, obviously. Is that okay?
Should I be concerned about books that "may be merged?"
Hope to get more on this on the morrow.
Is the script to update librarians as a source for various changes still going?For the following book, you can see that I ended up changing many of the fields, but it's still showing Amazon as the source:
http://www.goodreads.com/book/edits/6...
Jennifer E. wrote: "After the 14+ million import, GR will re-evaluate and decide if the rescue function should be opened up to all the members of GR."This, more than anything else in the thread, gives me an ulcer.
I've seen the havoc librarians have wrought. Imagining regular users let loose on the database makes me want to run and hide.
Mod
"May be merged" means that we have at least one edition that is not Amazon-sourced, so worst-case is your rating/review/etc. would be moved to a different edition.
And both those worst cases may not even happen, as the imports from our new sources come in.
vicki_girl wrote: "Is the script to update librarians as a source for various changes still going?"
I think so, but even when it's complete, that will probably still show Amazon as the source. (The title and ISBNs came from there.)
Ridley, even if is decided to do that, the rescue books pages allow fairly limited changes. It's not the same as "regular users let loose on the database", which I agree would be dangerous.
I am assuming that using Google Books as source is ok since they don't sell them. For some older out of print mystery titles from the 60's/70's, they have been the only source I have found.
A suggestion to improve the rescue page. When you are trying to rescue a book, all it lists is the ISBN13. Most of the books I've been trying to rescue are only printed with the ISBN10. Now if you're only doing one at a time you should remember what book you're rescuing, but to save time I've been opening a few at a time in different windows and then I have to struggle to figure out which is which.Also, I rescued a few books yesterday, but they are still listed (after ~24 hours) as "may be deleted" on my rescue list, even though if I actually go to the book itself it seems to know that it's been rescued. The cache for that list may need better updating.
I've rescued all my books that were in danger of deletion, however I have 235 that MAY be merged. I gather that means they will continue to stay on the site but as different editions?How much longer until the data import?
I've downloaded a listing of the books on my shelves... Why? Because I am preparing for what appears to be a potential reason to move my inventory, my time, and my efforts elsewhere. I won't know until this "datacide" is committed and the damages are known...
Many of the books listed in the over 500 still in my "on the chopping block" list are books that I OWN - which means they are ones for which I have provided INFO, CORRECTIONS, and many for which I have uploaded SCANNED IMAGES of the covers... For instance, this one that I "saved" tonight:
http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/18...
So, what has happened to my (large) cover image? Why does the image source data reflect "Not Set"?
Am I wrong in thinking that Amazon does not have exclusive rights to the title, author name, ISBN, publisher name, and similar data and should not be removed from GR's database? WHY are entire books being treated this way rather than just the data elements that could be of Amazon source? It appears that I'm not the only one concerned about this... Is the "I own a copy" information not being considered in this, and if not, then why not?
Why am I set to "lose" about 16% of the books I have shelved, many of which I have on my "edition-verified" shelf because I OWN A COPY (OR HAD A BORROWED PHYSICAL COPY IN HAND) THAT I USED FOR VERIFICATION INFO ON THOSE EDITIONS? http://www.goodreads.com/review/list/...
Sometimes I wonder if someone should take a minute to go forward and peek into GR's cockpit... Would be nice to know if someone's actually flying this thing or it's just on auto-pilot...
I'm gonna stop thinking about this for the rest of the night -- I'm only becoming more agitated thinking about all the time and effort that I've apparently wasted here, and I'm just too stubborn to give up on Goodreads this easily...
Mod
Mod
That's not the question. Book data doesn't have to belong exclusively to Amazon for them to have rights regarding who can and cannot get the info from them, how it can be used, and whether it can be retained.
It is fortunate that it does not belong exclusively to Amazon, as it is exactly that fact that is allowing GR to import as much data as possible from alternate sources.
rivka wrote: "Michael, ISBN13 was chosen instead of ISBN10 because the reverse of what you're describing (only the ISBN13 being available on many sites) is true for many books, especially those from the past 10 ..."I failed in my proposed solution. I was trying to suggest that both be listed, not just one.
Mod
since no one commented on my post #429, I guess that means Google Books is fine for a source?
ok cool. some of my out of print books its the only souce i've found
James wrote: "I've downloaded a listing of the books on my shelves... Why? Because I am preparing for what appears to be a potential reason to move my inventory, my time, and my efforts elsewhere. I won't know..."
I was wondering that too. Just a quick perusal of my to be saved list immediately found a book for which I scanned and supplied the cover image and the back cover information text, and if I recall aright possibly every scrap of info, but my memory is unreliable (it was Z. Jastrzebski's "Scientific Illustration...").
I have a list of 124 books even after rescuing several. Yes, most of them I did not personally already supply the information for, but some I did.
It's maybe 10% of my books, but 124 is still a large number to hunt down.
This Is Not The Michael You're Looking For wrote: "rivka wrote: "Michael, ISBN13 was chosen instead of ISBN10 because the reverse of what you're describing (only the ISBN13 being available on many sites) is true for many books, especially those from the past 10 ..."I failed in my proposed solution. I was trying to suggest that both be listed, not just one. "
I second Not the Michael's suggestion of having both. Taking a quick scan through my at risk list, almost all the ones that I own are older out of print editions. In fact there was only one that was after the year 2000. The rest were from late 1970's and 1980's.
I have rescued only about ten books so far. I only became a librarian over the weekend and I am a slow and painful typist (prone to making mistakes) at the best of times. I still have over 1300 books on my list, but I think I am going to wait until after the mega-import to rescue any more of them. I have a suspicion that many of my books are going to be foreign language books (some I might have as physical copies, but definitely not all of them) and I really wonder wether I am going to be able to rescue all of the books on my list in this short a time frame. The next two weeks are going to be crazy busy for me with non GR stuff anyhow (teaching, midterms, errands, you name it) and I just wish that there could be a bit more time for us to rescue books (finding sites on the internet, locating physical copies of books in the bookshelves, typing the information into the appropriate spaces, all of that is going to take time, especially for someone like me who is very, very new at even being a librarian).
Am I right in assuming that books with e.g. just the description from amazon will not be merged? Or do I have to provide all information that is being asked for to save my books? Surely goodreads can wipe all amazon descriptions without harming the rest of the books' data?
Gundula wrote: "I have rescued only about ten books so far. I only became a librarian over the weekend and I am a slow and painful typist (prone to making mistakes) at the best of times. I still have over 1300 b..."If you want I can help you with the German books as soon as possible. If I don't will find all the data to add I will only rescue the book with the title and the author's name and later, when this big import is finished, you (or other German members) can add the other informations I left out. Do you have also Italian books? If yes, I will help you also with them.
Sandi wrote: "Am I right in assuming that books with e.g. just the description from amazon will not be merged? Or do I have to provide all information that is being asked for to save my books?..."I think you should only fill in the required fields (Author Name/Book Title) in order to save the edition, all other data from Amazon will be wiped out.
I just went to my Librarian Edits page and there are 800+ of my previous edits duplicated and showing as recent.
So I guess the data we manually imported is safe?
dely wrote: "Gundula wrote: "I have rescued only about ten books so far. I only became a librarian over the weekend and I am a slow and painful typist (prone to making mistakes) at the best of times. I still ..."I don't think I have any Italian books. I mostly have German books and some French books. I'm more worried about the German books than the French books, and thanks, I appreciate any help offered. Very nice of you :-)
And I think you've made a good point about perhaps speeding the rescuing process up and only typing in the authors and the titles. I might end up doing this for most of my "actual" copies that need rescuing and then later adding things like dates and descriptions.
"My" list currently is over 400 entries long (lots of german or old editions)...I will never be able to fix it before Jan 30, so what will happen to my book shelves? Will my books be switched to different editions/isbns which I do not own? Will books on my wishlist with (yet) no other edition be removed completely?
Rh3a wrote: "I think you should only fill in the required fields (Author Name/Book Title) in order to save the edition, all other data from Amazon will be wiped out."That's what I thought too until I found a few books supposedly in need of rescuing but without any required fields, only asking for description and publisher. So I'm wondering why a book with the vital data (title & author) would still be in danger of being merged.
James wrote: "Am I wrong in thinking that Amazon does not have exclusive rights to the title, author name, ISBN, publisher name, and similar data and should not be removed from GR's database?..."Amazon does not own the rights to the individual data elements but they do own the rights to the aggregate data. Once a data aggregator (like Amazon), takes individual data elements and bundles them into a data feed, they then own the packaged data and can dictate how that data is used.
Please note that I am speaking as a specialist in the data aggregation field and have no knowledge of the license agreement GR signed with Amazon.
A couple of weeks ago goodreads imported from WorldCat. Most of the books I've rescued so far I've found on (and sourced as) WorldCat. Why are those marked for deletion if they're already part of an import?
Example: http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/13...
If Goodreads is vying for the title of a champion in inconveniencing readers and librarians, its efforts are likely to be duly rewarded in the nearest future. 1) Books started getting ISBNs approximately in late 1980s, but when I’m offered to rescue an edition from the 60s or 70s, I’m asked by the automatic service whether I confirm that its ISBN is such and such. How do I know what kind of ISBNs were later attached to the title and by what publishing house? Let’s try and assign ISBNs to the 1912 edition of Oxford Book of Poetry. Isn’t it the limit?
2) It happens so that there are a lot of pretty old English books in the libraries and private collections in Russia, many people read them, as they had no alternative editions to choose from. I added those with particular pride, as those editions can sometimes be a collector’s pride, and many a reader will gladly recognize the old familiar cover. Now I see that almost all editions printed before 1990s are treated with suspicion here, as if they were pests or bugs. Do the people who programmed the questionnaire this way think that all books were invented and printed after the 1990s?
3) Then I am told by the support service that I cannot save the pages of my own account with images now, because they have changed something in their programs, though till the 20th of December 2011 I could do it easily. “These pages are not meant for such saving, export the csv file instead.” Great! They are just the same – an html page with pictures that can be easily read without straining your eyes, and a table with no pictures at all that looks almost like a page with illegible squiggles, so densely printed that your eyes hurt.
4) There are also numerous vote count bugs, no aka feature though many people have been waiting for it for a long time (I know it’s a difficult thing to do, but if you never intended to use it, why announce it?), exploring options that leave much to be desired, recommendations that offer me to read the books that I have already read and no possibility for me to remove them from the list on these grounds.
5) I was eager to help, started improving the data on Russian editions and writers. Then I am told by one of you guys, that there must be actually several profiles for one and the same writer, because the languages (e.g. Russian and Bielorussian) have different spelling, and it’s more important to follow to the letter what is written on the cover than ascribing the book correctly to its true author. Thank you, I got the message and stopped doing it. Let those in the USA who know Russian literature better than me here in Russia do it. Having 5-10 profiles for Dostoyevsky will sure help everybody.
6) I volunteered among librarians offering language skills. What for? Nobody contacted me for anything. It seems to me the thread “Volunteering Language Skills” is useless at present.
7) This bit is my favourite: “If we can't find a matching edition, then your review will be attached to a book with no title or author.” No comment.
8) What is this about the right to aggregate data? You want to say that If I’m holding a copy of the book in my hands, and key in its ISBN, publisher and number of pages it’s wrong? Incredible!
On the whole, folks, what’s going on? One should forget about one’s job altogether and spend all the time “rescuing” thousands of books just because Amazon and Goodreads cannot agree? Want to have angry readers with damaged accounts? Wait a bit and you’ll have them. Want to have fewer readers? I bet you will succeed.
As for me, one more major redrafting of my own account when some strangers kill my books and then kindly offer me to rescue them in my own spare time – and off I go. Enough is enough.
re: 6, when I need help with a foreign language, I just make a new thread asking for users from that language. Unless there is only one user who can help with a particular language, I don't think there is much point in contacting users directly. If I make a thread, I know I will get the attention of people who are active and have enough time. If I contact people directly, I am maybe bugging people who have gone inactive or don't have time right now to deal with something so trivial.As for the rest, it's impossible to deny that there have been bumps along the way for Goodreads users, or that the database is not as good as it could be, and I have no interest in doing so. But I feel like Amazon is a substantial cause of the problems that this is creating for users.
For this "in-danger-to-be-removed" bookhttp://www.goodreads.com/book/show/59...
I couldn't find a different source with the same ISBN, so I inserted and combined a new edition using the data from the publisher's site http://www.librimondadori.it/web/mond....
The ISBN for the old edition and that for the new edition differ from one number, so I guess they are the same, but I cannot find a different source to confirm it. Well, anyway, I thought that a different edition would provide an anchor for the old editions, so that they wouldn't be in danger of being removed but in danger of being merged. Are the ratings and reviews attached to the old editions in danger of being removed even if they could be merged?
As for the rest, it's impossible to deny that there have been bumps along the way for Goodreads users, or that the database is not as good as it could be, and I have no interest in doing so. But I feel like Amazon is a substantial cause of the problems that this is creating for users."
I agree. After all the site is very useful for keeping track of our books, providing this at no cost to usas well as a very active set of forums and the like. I am grateful to Goodreads and do feel this change is more down to Amazon making demands over Goodreads not playing ball with them. So yes I may have to gie some time to rescue bit in my case it is about 35 books. Another 500 may be merged with other editons but I don't consider that a major issue. I can correct if I need to.
Inna, as far as I've been able to gather, this latest kerfuffle is Amazon's fault rather than Godreads'. I'm sure they've gone to great length to appease the mighty giant, but sometimes restrictions and requirements just means it's not worth it any longer. It sucks that we have to go through all this work, but blaming GR is the wrong way to go.
Emanuela ~plastic duck~ wrote: "For this "in-danger-to-be-removed" bookhttp://www.goodreads.com/book/show/59...
I couldn't find a different source with the same ISBN, so I inserted and combined a new..."
The ISBN you entered is invalid. It only has 12 digits. It looks like the site you used does not include the final check digit. The following site can be used to generate the check digit:
http://www.isbn-international.org/ia/...
I used it on your ISBN and it gave the check digit as 9, matching the current record. I would update and rescue the current record using this information and merge the one you created.
vicki_girl wrote: "Emanuela ~plastic duck~ wrote: "For this "in-danger-to-be-removed" bookhttp://www.goodreads.com/book/show/59...
I couldn't find a different source with the same ISBN, so I..."
Thank you very much, I suspected it but I couldn't find a way to check it. Grazie :)
This makes me feel like I'min that book/film where everyone learns to recite a book so it isn't lost!
This may have been asked a few pages back, but what will happen to kindle edtions of books?
Re 460 GR are keeping those - they are working with Amazon on that one along with the KDP (kindle direct publishing)
ah! Ok, thought something would be sorted out with. Ok, I will go back to my list and try to help out with the others. :)Thanks
Is there some way of kepping my list handy instead of hanging to come back to this thread to follow the link?
Mod
Why are those marked for deletion if they're already par..."
We're looking into that.
Inna wrote: "If Goodreads is vying for the title of a champion in inconveniencing readers and librarians, its efforts are likely to be duly rewarded in the nearest future..."Exactly. It appears we're to be served cow pie for dessert, regardless. What a monumental example of FUBAR.
Additionally, and for the record, it doesn't matter who caused the falling out between Goodreads and Amazon, does it?
~~sigh~~
Well, back to saving things that shouldn't have to be saved...
Inna wrote: "Having 5-10 profiles for Dostoyevsky will sure help everybody.":(
True. After this big import we will have again a lot of Dostoyevsky, Dostoevskij, Leo Tolstoy, Lev Tolstoj and so on.
Inna wrote: "7) This bit is my favourite: “If we can't find a matching edition, then your review will be attached to a book with no title or author.” No comment."James wrote: "It appears we're to be served cow pie for dessert, regardless. What a monumental example of FUBAR."
Hah, I agree. Are they insane?
No title or author would mean no-one can search for it and fix it up. I had a bit of a rant about this in my earlier comment in this thread, but it doesn't seem like there's anyone in charge around to reassure me that they've seen the light and won't be following through on this batshit crazy course of action. :S
I even had a good suggestion to replace their insane idea:
Couldn't the titles be renamed to "RESCUE-ME-{OLD-TITLE}" and "RESCUE-ME-{OLD-AUTHOR}"? Or "RESCUE-ME-{ISBN}"?
I'll continue to be noisy on occasion until someone does reassures me we won't be left with blank titles and authors. :)
I know this isn't all Goodreads's fault, but they don't have to make things worse by making hasty decisions without thinking through the consequences.
I don't understand this anger toward Goodreads. Do you think this is what they planned and wanted?
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And I'm busy, busy, busy with offline stuff, so...here's hoping others need to help rescue those editions too.