Goodreads Librarians Group discussion
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Amazon is going away as a data source
HelenI'd imagine that is to allow you to save the image to your harddrive. I've been accessing pics from other sources andsaving them temp to my docs and then deleting after uploading to Goodreads.
rivka, will there be a notification when the big import is finished? Or how multinational it'll be?I'm resigned to only start panicking over my family's books when all the new data is in.
"Moderatrix Lori wrote: "I'm frankly amazed at the anger towards Goodreads over this. It's the old "just push a button" mentality. People bitch and complain about things they know nothing about...."
I have to say that I feel people here are amazingly kind and supportive of the Goodreads team. The whole thing is frankly a textbook example of how *not* to communicate with the people you depend on for the success of your business model.
The Goodreads team put out a scary message on Friday afternoon then vanished and still haven't responded to basic concerns.
In my case, I have 1216 books on my Goodreads bookshelves. On Saturday morning 512 were at risk (ie 42 percent). Now, thanks in part to some some work I have done myself and, presumably, some work by others and maybe an automatic process, I have "only" 433 at risk (35 percent). Maybe the import of 14 million new books will sort this out, but no one has answered my earlier query about when the process will be run, and when we will know the outcome.
What sticks in the throat is (a) that we will have only a few days to sort this out after the import takes place, and (b) that the original communication from the Goodreads team wasn't straight with us.
Nowhere did the initial Goodreads communication say that this was in response to an ultimatum from Amazon. Instead it claimed this was a policy decision being taken for the future health of Goodreads.
Now this may be a good policy decision (I don't feel in a good position to judge) and it would be okay, in my book, to say "this is how we want to go, you'll have 3 months to rescue your books", but to give 10 days at max is nonsense. We have jobs and lives to lead, and at the moment we don't know when the 14 million import will be completed and hence how big the scale of the outstanding task will be. (Even if only 100 of mine are still at risk at the end of the process, I couldn't deal with them in a just few days given that I have a full-time job to do. And I do care about editions as well as works).
And I still can't see that the deadline must be as hard at 30 January. I doubt that Amazon can suck their data out of the Goodreads system. And surely if Goodreads are taking reasonable steps to address Amazons concerns, a bit of leeway can be negotiated. If not, let me know, and I will never spend a penny with Amazon again.
Mod
That is my understanding. I'm sorry I don't have details; the folks who do are working hard on the imports.
i'm sorry - there are just too many comments to scroll through. i am totally happy to rescue books, but have the "other sources" been accessed yet? i would rather let a machine do the bulk of the work before i sweep in and rescue the stragglers.
Too true Lori and I am a bitcher (sometimes). You could not pay me enough to work there right now! Talk about working under pressure with not a lot cheering on. I shall try to moderate my opinions in light of your comments, although that doesn't mean I don't feel that way about some of them :)
karen wrote: "i'm sorry - there are just too many comments to scroll through. i am totally happy to rescue books, but have the "other sources" been accessed yet? i would rather let a machine do the bulk of the w..."There have been a couple of imports done that I can see via the librarian logs but more to come I would think
karen wrote: "i'm sorry - there are just too many comments to scroll through. i am totally happy to rescue books, but have the "other sources" been accessed yet? i would rather let a machine do the bulk of the w..."To the best of my knowledge (what has been posted by GR staff so far), only a few test runs have been completed thus far.
Simon wrote: "No-one's said you must fix the database. It's a free service and one that does a great job. But of course where would the self-important be without their outrage?"It has nothing to do with self-importance, but everything to do with placing trust in an online service (free or not matters not), spending countless hours building an inventory of a personal library and helping to better a database for all to use... and then, in effect, being told that all that work means nothing. I, for one, do not appreciate in the least having to duplicate my efforts -- maybe others don't mind having their time wasted, but if I want to waste time, I could just go watch television or swill beer at the local bar.
Kate wrote: "I'd really like the "Rescuing a book is easy" title taken off the rescue page. I'm willing to rescue these books, but there's no denying it's a huge pain."
I hereby nominate Kate's "huge pain" claim for the Understatement of the Year Award.
Snail in Danger (Sid) wrote: "And no, we don't pay to use the service — though some of us would if we could — we are the ones who add a great deal of value to it."
And if this whole "Rescuing a book is easy" experiment does a classic crash and burn, a good many of the users and librarians who have invested their time and energy here will be rather more than frustrated and disappointed.
You know, for future problems like this, a current status message somewhere wouldn't be a bad idea. I agree with John that from the side of Customer Support, this whole mess could have been avoided or at least contained.I think Goodreads has grown too big for the Feedback Group (or in this case, the Librarian Group) to communicate about matters as this. Especially when they take place over the weekend, and people have too much time to panic and speculate without complete and updated information.
I'm not faulting Goodreads for the current situation, but I am faulting it for the way how this was handled, because Otis' first message wasn't complete nor clear, and people have to scavenge hunt for additional information in this massive thread.
So I have to agree with Sid in message 476:
"Well, GR does seem to have a tendency to try the take out the trash strategy: announce big, likely unpopular changes on Friday, perhaps in the hope that it's about to be the weekend and most people won't notice (and they have an excuse for not being around as much to answer questions). Of course, this never works, because it irritates many of the core users who are still using the site on the weekend. (And maybe the timing is just a repeated coincidence. But maybe not.)
Only 10 days' notice to fix something that required many hours of data entry and will take even more time to correct — and seems likely to disproportionately impact non-Americans, many of whom seem to have been already feeling less than appreciated — is understandable as a source of frustration.
In terms of timing, it's possible that their usage agreement with Amazon had only, say, a 30 day termination provision, so if GR got notification on Jan. 1, then that gave them only 30 days to come up with a solution. All of these features - "rescue me," importing from other databases, etc. - would have been developed in the last 20 or so days. I think GR is doing a good job with the shitty hand they were dealt. That said, maybe better contracts or, like John @522 suggested, a little leeway negotiation, would help in the future. It's a grow and learn process. That said, if it really is Amazon's completely draconian take on it and they will not budge, then I will reconsider buying from them in the future.
If this is anything like what Goodreads signed with Amazon then their hands were tied in relation to many of the things several of you think they could have done better. Even communicating the issues to us is outlined in the Amazon Product Advertising License AgreementDisclaimer: I found this through a simple Google search. I am not affiliated with either Goodreads or Amazon and I have no knowledge if this is the agreement Goodreads signed. This is just an example.
Well, I've cleaned up about 400 "to delete books" and some "to be merged books". I found it quite addictive, and a lovely trip down memory lane. I know I wasn't supposed to do so many but I just couldn't stop. Certainly pays to be meticulous when first inputting books. Plus I was the only rater on many of them, so wasn't sure whether they would be caught in the 14 million.
Just another 465 to go.
rivka wrote: "Lynne - The Book Squirrel wrote: "why when the ISBN number is there can't the title and author be there too to save time?"Because that is exactly the information we cannot use unless and until it comes from another source. "
LOL! But this information is publicly available at any number of sources. Amazon doesn't own it. Presumably it was acquired when GR had an agreement with Amazon... but now we have to figuratively reach back in time to negate that - basically pretend we don't have it even though it's right there on the screen - it's completely absurd.
Well said John, I feel like until I know differently, Goodreads bears at least partial responsibility for this headache. That said, I love this site and want to remain loyal, so I'm willing to give them leeway as they fix this problem, I'm sure that the team are doing the best they can under considerable pressure, therefore they deserve our patience and understanding as well as our criticism.--Mahlon--
Snail in Danger (Sid) wrote: "Lori, I think I detect some assumptions in your own response ... but it's clear we're just talking past eachother at this point.Thanks to Michael for providing a partial update here."
Thanks for that link Sid:)
Well, the test seemed to work ok for me. I'm sorry GR has to do this, but at least it's doable.For the covers, I have only uploaded photos and scans of books I personally own.
I wonder, if I am the source of Amazon's image (which I am in several cases), can I also upload my image here or will Amazon claim infringement? The photos and scans are my own, of my own books and magazines.
Scott wrote: "LOL! But this information is publicly available at any number of sources. Amazon doesn't own it. Presumably it was acquired when GR had an agreement with Amazon... but now we have to figuratively reach back in time to negate that - basically pretend we don't have it even though it's right there on the screen - it's completely absurd. "
It is absurd, but it's not Goodreads' fault that the law is an ass.
Mod
This is probably a stupidquestion: all my books on any of my shelves are safe unless they are listed on that link I follow in post 1? I realise any books I've shelved with the wrong edition will not come up. But I only need to save those?
Mod
I'm with Sandra and Abigail... this is addictive! Just one more, just one more, I keep going... ;)Just curious, is there a master list or something anywhere of all the editions which need rescuing? Or are we only able to access the ones on our own shelves? I mean, not that I'm likely to plough through the 19 pages I have left...
My Kindle editions -- not KDP, but Kindle editions put out by other publishers -- are still showing at risk on the actual book pages (although they aren't listed on my librarian rescue page). These are actually all safe, right? It's just a question of getting all the settings in place to stop showing that warning...?
rivka wrote: "Alessandra, does Amazon list them as customer-provided images and you as the source?"Looks like yes. It's only a handful of images, but I was curious and a little worried.
I too am finding "rescuing" books strangely compelling. And it's been satisfying to upload covers that weren't here before.
the idea of no information from amazon.com is rathar dumb to me as well.
Mod
It's not available to librarians yet, but yes.
Cait wrote: "These are actually all safe, right? It's just a question of getting all the settings in place to stop showing that warning...?"
That is my understanding.
Mod
Out of curiosity has the new 14 million super database been imported yet? And if not can we please get notification in this thread when it happens?Thank you!
Cait wrote: "My Kindle editions -- not KDP, but Kindle editions put out by other publishers -- are still showing at risk on the actual book pages (although they aren't listed on my librarian rescue page). These..."Thanks, Cait. The Kindle Editions should no longer show as at risk on the book pages either.
Mayanka wrote: "The Kindle Editions should no longer show as at risk on the book pages either."That's a big relief! Thank you!
Mayanka wrote: "The Kindle Editions should no longer show as at risk on the book pages either."I have a couple of books where I have shelved the paperback, but it is combined with a Kindle edition that is no longer at risk. However, the paperback is still showing as "may be deleted". Shouldn't this be "may be merged" now? Also, I have books that were listed as "may be merged" where I switched to a different edition, yet they are still on my at risk list. Is there any way to get the cache on this info updated?
I know you are all very busy, so I understand if it's not possible right now.
Sandra wrote: "I'm amazed at how much Amazon has taken credit for books I've input in the past. Books that I know I input all the data for, including typing descriptions and scanning covers. Case in point the cat..."If people are seeing books at risk that they know they have manually entered, please provide some links. Also, don't rescue it right away; give us a chance to investigate. Thanks!
vicki_girl wrote: "Mayanka wrote: "The Kindle Editions should no longer show as at risk on the book pages either."I have a couple of books where I have shelved the paperback, but it is combined with a Kindle editio..."
Vicki, you're right. We're aware and working on that issue.
So I have over 1,000 books asking me to rescue them. I've done so for several of them, but I was hoping most or all of them would be saved by the 14-million upload. Has that happened yet?
Mayanka wrote: "Sandra wrote: "I'm amazed at how much Amazon has taken credit for books I've input in the past. Books that I know I input all the data for, including typing descriptions and scanning covers. Case i..."Sorry Mayanka, eager fingers and I've fixed that one long ago.
If I come across any more that I'm absolutely sure about, I'll come post here.
Sandra wrote: "Mayanka wrote: "Sandra wrote: "I'm amazed at how much Amazon has taken credit for books I've input in the past. Books that I know I input all the data for, including typing descriptions and scannin..."No problem, thanks for letting us know if you see it again.
Thanks you all so much for your feedback on this. We knew that posting this information would result in a lot of concern, but we felt the time was right to share what we could. For years, we've used Amazon's data, and while they have always had certain restrictions and requirements, those terms have gotten harder and harder to adhere to. We have been working as hard as we can to find a new, independent source of data. Ultimately, though, this deadline is Amazon's, and they have told us that we must stop using their data by January 30, and we have to meet this deadline.Looking at the bright side of this, we've never been able to use Amazon data in our mobile apps, and we've had to show Amazon buy links and only Amazon buy links on all book pages sourced from them. Obviously, that will now change. Ultimately, we feel that while we would have chosen a more relaxed timetable for all of this, having our own data will make Goodreads a stronger, more independent site.
Our new primary source for data will be Ingram, a major wholesaler of books and a powerful data partner—their database includes more than 14 million ISBNs. Our partnership with Ingram is different from the public APIs, such as Amazon's, that we have relied on in the past; we have an official partnership with them that will provide us with top-notch, accurate data for the foreseeable future.
In addition to Ingram's enormous database, we are supplementing our own site with book records from the Library of Congress and other sources, as well. Through these various sources, we hope to have most of the data required to keep every book record on the site.
First, please be assured that none of your reviews or ratings are in danger. Not a single review, comment, shelving, or rating will be lost in this transition. That's the most important thing—your data is 100% safe.
Second, we apologize if you felt that we posted this too late or that we should have been more responsive. Please understand that we were trying to balance the search for new sources of data, much of which involved negotiations that demanded our silence on the matter, with keeping an open feedback loop with all of you. Running an open company has always been a priority of ours, but sometimes the realities of business mean we have to hold some information back, at least for a time.
In the interest of making sure that everyone understands the nature of this transition and what exactly will happen, we'll try to address some of the questions presented in this thread. If we fail to answer your question, it may be because we don't know the answer yet, or it may be because we cannot answer your question at the moment. We're committed to giving you as much information as possible, and We promise to provide updates with new information as soon as we have it.
I'm an author and my books are only available through Amazon. Will my books be deleted?
No, you can rescue your books! As the author, you are a valid data source yourself. Simply enter the appropriate information on the rescue page for your book.
If you're an author, and you'd like to view your books in need of rescue, go here:
http://www.goodreads.com/rescue_books...
What about Kindle editions of books by other publishers (non-KDP books)?
Those are safe. If you see a Kindle edition that still needs rescuing, please report it here.
What are some valid sources of data?
If you have the book—either a physical or ebook copy—that would be best. If don't have the book, you can try the author's website, the publisher's website, public wikis, and library websites. Please do not use an ecommerce site such as Alibris, Abebooks, Powell's, or, obviously, Amazon.
What about my international editions?
If you entered the data for those books manually, they will not be affected. If they come from Amazon.fr or Amazon.it, then we will need to find an alternative source for data on those books. We will be adding data feeds from international publishers over the next few weeks and months, and we hope to have data for every book in the catalog, but if you've shelved books you own that are obscure or in a foreign language, please take the time to rescue those books.
I know you said that my reviews wouldn't be deleted, but what happens if I reviewed a book and it doesn't get rescued?
First, let me repeat, your reviews and ratings really won't be deleted. There's a good chance that we will get data for your book from Ingram or the Library of Congress. If neither of those things happen, and you can't find a copy of the book or a valid source for data, then that particular book might be removed, which means that your review or rating would be temporarily moved to a blank edition without an author or title, where they will be stored until we can find a new source for data for that book, which we're confident we can do for every book in the catalog.
For books that don't get rescued, how long will it be before there's a new data source?
While each case is different, new data is our top priority at the moment and will remain so until we have records for every book.
Do I need to export my data to back it up?
No, you do not. We will not lose any of the data. While you are free to export your books, ratings, and reviews at any time, it is not necessary.
When is all of this going to happen?
We must be completely free from Amazon data by January 30. We have already begun importing data from our new sources, and we hope to have those imports finished by the end of the week. One should be finished soon, and another will finish by Wednesday, at the latest. If there are any books missing once we switch off Amazon data (And we hope there won't be), we will continue to work on finding new sources for that data until our catalog is 100% complete.
The following book was probably imported from Amazon. Based on the librarian change log, you can see I updated almost every bit info on it. I typed up that description myself. However, everything except the image source is showing as amazon_de.http://www.goodreads.com/book/edits/2...
Thank you Patrick for the information. I don't envy you at all.
Thanks for posting that, Patrick. Very helpful.
Thank you Patrick for the information. I don't envy you at all.
Mayanka, here is an example:The Coast Watchers This book is in danger of being removed
The Coast Watchers as is this one
The Coast Watchers However, I entered this one in its entirety, and it is not endangered
another librarian helped with the author merges, which were variously incorrect; but why would the first two books not be in the "will be merged" column?
Thank you for the update and thank you for all your hard work.
It's great that the rescue link takes me straight to the list of my own books that need rescuing, but is there a way to see whether another person has books shelved in need of rescuing? Or is there a way for non-librarians to access their list? Also, somewhere on my computer I have a folder with book cover photos that I added to goodreads a while ago. Some of those are my own scans and some probably came from amazon.de, but there is no way for me to tell which are which now. Does that mean I can't use either for rescuing?
vicki_girl wrote: "The following book was probably imported from Amazon. Based on the librarian change log, you can see I updated almost every bit info on it. I typed up that description myself. However, everything..."vicki_girl: we'd have to check, but the most likely reason is that the publication date for this edition is actually earlier than the original publication date stored on the work the edition is connected to.
This blocked my script from updating the updaters for all of the data fields on the book from the librarian logs (we have validation rules before changing books that prevent the publication date from being before the work's pub date). This affected about 0.5% of our books, and is probably due to an old bug that we didn't clean up after.
I'm planning to work on cleaning this condition up tonight and refreshing the updaters for all data fields for affected books. So try checking back in a couple of days to see if it's fixed....
Sandi wrote: "It's great that the rescue link takes me straight to the list of my own books that need rescuing, but is there a way to see whether another person has books shelved in need of rescuing? Or is there..."You can view the "rescue books for other readers" page here (It's also available by clicking the link at the bottom of your rescue page):
http://www.goodreads.com/rescue_books...
As for the cover images, if you know that some came from Amazon.de, then you cannot use those. But generally speaking, images you have on your computer and upload yourself are going to be fine.
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You can save the cover pics who are on GR and then add them ..."
How do I do this? When I click the cover option it takes me to my documents on my computer.