Goodreads Authors/Readers discussion
II. Publishing & Marketing Tips
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Do self-published ebooks have a bad reputation?

I love buying self published books because they're so much cheaper than traditionally published ones. If I can read two or three good books for the same price as I used to pay for one, that's pretty sweet.
The downside is that I have to go through a bunch of chaff to get to the wheat. I'd guess that I probably look at and pass on 50 to 100 novels before I buy one. I've had to get really good at determining quickly if the author has a clue or not.

"The downside is that I have to go through a bunch of chaff to get to the wheat."
I love this line, totally understandable too.

http://www.bragmedallion.com/about
http://www.bragmedallion.com/about/wh...
This may be of interest.

I get you. I really, really do.
Personally, it would be great if every self published book I ran across was of fantastic quality. (Though, were that the case, I don't see how I'd ever get any writing done 'cause I'd be reading so much, so maybe not a good thing :) )
I just don't see how the situation is ever going to change. Moreso, I'm not sure that it has to change if good books are still getting through.
GT mentions that, as a self-published author, she sold 500 books in less than two months since her debut. I keep hearing that stories of that level of success and better abound.
Thanks.
Brian

Because as much as I go to the extreme to ensure that my readers can enjoy my books and not be offended by my sloppy errors in grammar, or format, it can happen.
When I published my first ebook, I got a few reviews that stated that although they loved the story, there were a few grammatical errors (and I had the book edited by a professional) and problems with tense. Some didn't mind because it didn't take away from the storyline, but others were a bit peeved about it. I really appreciated those reviews because those readers helped me to understand where I needed to improve.
Now, their comments stick in my head every time I write so that I work even harder to make sure I don't repeat those mistakes.
Whether SP or traditionally published, you can find mistakes. It's just that with traditional, the author has a lot, and I mean, a lot of in-house help as to what part of the book works, what part to take out, use different words here, this character is too boring change it, etc... Independents are pretty much on their own.
That's just my one cent :)

Quick follow-up. I worked very, very hard on marketing even though it was way out of my comfort zone. Honest assessment -- marketing plan brought in the numbers.

Get on t..."
Good Lord, who would be the judges? Who would want to read through the SPA slush pile that is what we call Amazon? SPAs would be beating on their doors insisting their novels should be the ones included in that collection.
Oh, wait. Isn't that what SPAs do now on GoodReads? They figure if they beat on enough doors, then they will get noticed. That's how it works in marketing. You don't have to be the best at something. You just have to be the most visible. We've learned that from other industries.
Does an SPA automatically get a bad rep because of a few bad writers who produce trash? Or are there only a few good SPAs who get drowned out by a lot of bad writers who think they are good writers?
I don't know the answer to that. I'd like to think I'm one of the good writers, but I can't be my own judge. So who is qualified to be that judge? Readers? Maybe there are as many bad judges among readers as there are bad writers among SPAs?
I don't know that the good writers will float to the top. I think the good writers who are good marketers have a better chance of floating to the top. I don't know what a good solution would be to get the good writers to the top.
I believe the big SPA publishers (Amazon, Smashwords, B&N, etc.) are the real winners in all of this. I don't think they care about being judges. The more people who self publish, the more money the publisher makes. They don't care if 99% of the SPAs sell more than 10 books. If 100,000 SPAs sell only 10 books, the publishers still make a lot of money. It's like an insurance company who hires way too many salespeople. Only a handful of the salespeople will make a lot of money, but the company still makes a lot of money from the salespeople who aren't as productive.
Will SPAs ever get a good rep? Probably not with the publishing model we have now.

You are now enlightened! In spite of Corporate greed, keep writing if at the end of a project it rewards you with whatever it is you need. Creativity is a gift in itself.

I think they're likely floundering with this as much as we are, maybe more, and, like it or not, we really are in partnership with them, and they with us, and it's a far more equitable partnership.
Brian asked earlier, "does the publishing scene really need to be altered?"
Whether it does or not (and my belief is it's long overdue, the feudal system is so passe), it is in a state of rapid flux. Grab a metaphorical board and learn to surf or drown.
*and, btw, for the record, I get just as frustrated at sorting through the crap put out by old-school publishing and often wind up saying "screw it" and re-reading something — again.

You make a lot of good points. One of the most obvious issues is trying to out sell or equal a traditionally published books, which as far as I'm concerned should never be a SP author's goal.
I don't know that the industry needs to be altered but perhaps the way authors go about getting it published and perhaps even lower their high expectations.

That being said, if we judge a book by its style there are many favorites and unfavorites. If we judge a book by actual writing ability then it thrusts many people into an arena where the sales tell the tale.
I think many of us can judge a book within the first few pages on talent and ability whether we like the style or not. All this gives SPA a huge chance to make or break. ( or surf). :-)

They would most definitely have to be anonymous, and yes, there would be a collective wailing and gnashing of teeth coming from SPAs that didn't make the cut.
I would never suggest that they vet for content, but they could point out the books that meet basic standards for grammar and formatting.
It'll never happen though.



There is a newer author who shows up in my Facebook feed quite frequently. Out of sheer curiosity, I looked her books up on..."
Shari,
"Fifty Shades of Grey" is a prime example of the type of book to which you refer in your post.
Unfortunately, a substantial portion of the reading population do not care how badly a book is written as long as it caters to their attraction (some say addiction) to pornography. They are the same people who spend huge sums of money to watch porno movies with no regard to the terrible acting and poor production quality.

I have a book entitled, A Shade of Mind. I didn't name it that to get attached to Fifty Shades. However, when I search for my title on Amazon, a bunch of other books with scantily clad people also show up. I don't like it, but what are you going to do?
Thanks Shari for giving me a way to slip in a shameless self-plug there with your Fifty Shades comment. :P

There is a newer author who shows up in my Facebook feed quite frequently. Out of sheer curiosity, I looked her books up on..."
I agree--erotica sells, the more graphic, the more sales. I came upon a reviewer's page once to see how she reviewed certain books. Guess what? The ones that were in the realm of clean, or mild in content, she gave one to two stars, but the ones that were in the same line of "fifty shades of gray" got five, all of them. I've seen this more than once. Books that are erotic, no matter how poorly written, sell very, very well.
There's a couple who churns out a book a month, A BOOK A MONTH! in the romance line. Now, I don't know about the rest of you, but it takes me a long time to get my book to the point where I feel it's ready for the market. This couples' books are doing so well, they paid off their mortgage the first year. What do you want to bet those romance novels are filled with erotica content?
Sad but true. The rest of us just have to work harder.

The downside to lusty novels and ideas is they are fleeting and people are always looking for more, better, newer, etc. 50 years from now no one will be reading 50 shades of anything.
Money or enduring tales is a personal choice for all writers. The trick is getting them both together.


I'm firmly in the "waste of time," camp. Though, I tend to enjoy wasting time that I should be using to write :(
Perhaps the issue is that it's generally impossible, in a free society, to exert too much control over the actions of others. Ideally, the ultimate best solution is for all SPAs to publish only books of the highest quality.
That's just not going to happen. The people who are doing the publishing don't even understand that they are causing a problem. Most of them are disbelieving when you try to tell them exactly how bad their book is.
Amazon has no financial incentive to do anything about the "problem."
There are various websites that try to put some sort of quality stamp on books, but those organizations face enormous challenges. A) "Quality" is hugely subjective. B) Evaluating books is an expensive (in terms of time spent) endeavor. and C) The only way to get authors to participate is if the profit from sales generated by getting the seal exceeded the cost.
Curious, I checked out one of these sites. The book I bought as a test was just a craptastic as most of the other self published books I ran across. I can't imagine, then, that the site actually generated much in the way of sales, especially considering that the site wasn't geared for recommendations or sales at all.
If I were to try to come up with a solution, it would probably look something like this:
Self Published books, if they provide the same entertainment value as traditionally published, are a great value to the consumer due to lower cost. If a site were created that recommended low-cost, quality books to consumers, it should attract customers due to the value provided. And, if it attracted customers, it would attract authors.
The problem, and it's a doozy, is finding high quality self published books without spending a ton of money.
My solution - tap into book bloggers? There would still be a lot of challenges in putting together something that worked, but I think all the pieces are there for something that could provide value to both readers, bloggers (attention and prestige?), and SPAs.
Just a thought.
Brian

I think whining is a waste of time, but addressing a problem is not.
But is this a solvable problem? I don't know. Problems are usually solved by rational people who want to find a solution. There are a lot of irrational people involved who too often is a part of the problem instead of part of the solution.
So, if the problem isn't solvable, we have to resist the urge to join the irrationals and "do as they do". We must write well and publish correctly. We have to lead by example. Maybe that's all we can do.
And be patient and considerate to others. That's my $0.02 worth, but it's free on Smashwords for the next two weeks.

I'm confused. What good does identifying the crap do? Why is that the goal?
My goal, as an aspiring SPA, is to sell books. Others can put out all the crap they want. If they're not preventing me from selling my books, why do I care?
Maybe the issue is that some SPAs want to have a higher prestige level. I get that, but it seems to me that prestige comes from selling books. Once you're successful, who cares if you self published or are traditionally published? There aren't a lot of people looking down on Hugh Howey, right?

BINGO.
So, if the problem isn't solvable, we have to resist the urge to join the irrationals and "do as they do". We must write well and publish correctly. We have to lead by example. Maybe that's all we can do.
That's a big part of it, Linda, and joining the irrationals would be . . . irrational. Besides, why bother to write just to crap it up? That's not ethical writing and it gives no satisfaction to a real writer.
******
It's not too many half empties and not enough half fulls, it's too many friggin' half glasses of WATER and not enough whiskey. Or beer. Or something ;-)


Well lots of reports have been written and its the opposite it seems.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology...

But, again, it sounds like the goal is for "good" SPAs to be able to sell their books.
In an earlier post, however, your statement implied that identifying the crap was the goal.
Maybe, instead of focusing on a way to eliminate the crap, the best solution is to find a way for "good" SPAs to be able to sell books.
Again, in an ideal world, eliminating the crap is, perhaps, the best goal. The problem, imo, is that it doesn't seem feasible. I just can't see any endgame that has that objective as the result.
On the other hand, there are legitimate forces that compel customers to want good SPAs. Thus, it seems like it would be feasible to make it easier for good SPAs to be noticed.
If this is all just about tilting at windmills, that's fine, but, if you are serious about making a change, focusing on what is feasible might be better.
Of course, I freely admit that:
1. Eliminating the crap may be feasible. Obviously, just because I can't see the means doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
2. It may not be feasible to make good SPAs easier to sell.

Identifying the good one. Love that idea! Perhaps Amazon should come up with an award for the best SP book of the year? Or a reader choice award perhaps?

It would have to be concise, and lookers would need to be able to search according to criteria that interested them, not just by author, title, etc.
Maybe giving readers a time saving option to start out is having a quick look up of titles and authors that have formatting/literacy issues to the extent that further review is a waste of time.
Personal taste is all subjective. Try reading the book first, via the Look Inside option. You cannot possibly pass judgement otherwise.
Grammar, however, is not subjective. With major publishing houses reeling out books that would have had me in detention at twelve years old, the idea that you can suddenly start throwing stones at self-published authors now is frankly laughable.
'Go read what you gotten' - or something. God only knows.
It's English, but not as we know it - that's for sure. I would suggest the page formatting is the least of the problems most readers face. As for the 99 cents box sets, try instead to make head or tail of half of these clowns that have landed a publishing contract off the back of another author, via a 'proper' publisher. I can certainly name a few off the top of my head that I found extremely difficult to plough through.
People in glass houses...
Grammar, however, is not subjective. With major publishing houses reeling out books that would have had me in detention at twelve years old, the idea that you can suddenly start throwing stones at self-published authors now is frankly laughable.
'Go read what you gotten' - or something. God only knows.
It's English, but not as we know it - that's for sure. I would suggest the page formatting is the least of the problems most readers face. As for the 99 cents box sets, try instead to make head or tail of half of these clowns that have landed a publishing contract off the back of another author, via a 'proper' publisher. I can certainly name a few off the top of my head that I found extremely difficult to plough through.
People in glass houses...

If a book's not selling and every single unsolicited review claims it is horrendous, at least some of these practitioners will get the idea and take their misunderstood genius somewhere like Wattpad. Or their blog. Or a fanfic forum, or somewhere that's not the public marketplace. Of course there's plenty of material on here that's not from the marketplace, further muddying the waters.
Repeating assertions of best practice, while it may not make the crap go away, will cut down on the craziness, and might improve some of the dreck. Because it is sadly true that the unsuspecting public is now sifting through the slush pile, instead of someone's hapless intern. Some of this stuff is not salvageable, in any universe, and some of it's perpetrators seem to have NO idea what they're doing wrong, and there's just not too much that it seems practical to do about that, but discouraging bad behavior is a start.
I strongly suspect that someone over at Amazon is kicking around the idea of a juried division, but I'm betting it's prohibitively expensive, and it's not in their best interests to restrict access too much.

Grammar, however, is not subjective. With major publishing ..."
I do agree with you, Jonathan.
We've got to do — and be — better than that to overcome the obstacles.

And you're right. The *jurying* has to come from outside the publishing/sales outlets, otherwise it's too easily gamed and there are too many reasons for it to be less than straightforward.

Enjoy the art show! I'm glad you still like us, but I strongly suspect it'll be refreshingly drama-free compared to this place.

No. I'm missing all the fun, aren't I?

No. I'm missing all the fun, aren't I?"
You know it.

Amen to that, Renee!
Have fun at the show, Linda, or at least stay sane, if possible.
Unfortunately, I think a good author has to also be a good marketer to become successful, SPA or TPA. And I don't mean "In your face" or "spamming" marketing. I mean effective marketing.
Also unfortunately, some of us have to live within a family budget and there is nothing left over for a "marketing bucket" to support this "hobby". Not that my wife isn't supportive of my writing. She's very much so and is proud of it, but I spend no money on it if it endangers the budget. (It usually does.) So I have to rely on my own unremarkable marketing skills and my lack of time because of my day job and family obligations. That makes it much harder to crawl out from under the slush pile.
I'm not whining about it, I just have to work harder to push my work forward. This is the part where I'm lacking and need continuing education.
I think a lot of us SPAs are in this category. It is frustrating to see others who write garbage, do so more successfully. We can rend our clothes bemoaning this unfairness, or we can educate ourselves in becoming better marketers. Sometimes it seems like I'll never get there, but I certainly won't if I'm not persistent.
I'm open to all suggestions on how to better market my work. I can't spend any money on it, but I'm willing to learn. Maybe if SPAs learn this, we can get more of the respect we would like.

Reviews are there - for reviewers and readers to take on board - or not. Authors can read them, or not. A review is one person's view on a particular product - whether that is A Midsummer Night's Dream or Bob's Book. There will always be a reader who didn't like it/didn't get it/got offended, as there will be someone who thought it was wonderful.
Personally as a reader I tend to read the blurb and possibly the sample and judge whether I'll buy it on that. Sometimes I read reviews, not often. Sometimes I agree, sometimes not. Sometimes I make a bad judgement - in which case I'll stop reading and move on. I review - but more for myself as I have a terrible memory and it helps me recall what I liked, or not.
I don't think authors should comment on reviews, if the reader didn't like your book, then they didn't. Not much you can do about it now. Sure read the review, take on board what is said, move on. Don't rant, don't insult. People have varying opinions, and that is what makes us a fascinating bunch.
People disagree. Fine. That is life.

Amen to that, Renee!
Have fun at the show, Linda..."
Okay, I definitely believe that marketing is over-emphasized, but...
In my opinion, the single most important thing a writer can do is maintain an active social media presence. Not buy my book, buy my book, buy my book, but opinions, funny cat stories, sharing stuff you like etc.
The second most important thing you can do is release titles frequently, even if most of them are short.
Thirdly, have freebies. You don't need to give away the store, but free titles increase visibility. This works best a)if your books appeal to a broad base, b) if you have a lot of titles, and c)not to be mean, but if your books are decent.
None of this costs anything. I'm a hybrid, so strict SPA experience may be a little different, but this works for me. I am most emphatically not getting rich, but my books make me money, rather than my spending money on them.

How much fun is it? It's more fun than . . . SPAs' bad reputation.
;-)"
Well, have a good time! With or without drama.

Self-published ebooks do have a bad reputation, but over eager self-published authors have a worse one and they and not their books are the main reason that many book bloggers are trade only.
The issue of taking a self-published book to an editor is not as simple as it appears. Not only are the affordable editors sometimes someone who has just done a course in college and thrown up a grammatically illiterate website, but the whole dynamic is different than with the trade publishers. Trade editors can tell an author do this or you will not see this book published as we have the rights to it for the next 70 years and that is presuming that you die tomorrow. Freelance editors of a self-published work work for the author. Not only is that a very different dynamic, but there is a pressure to be nice (and get future work from the author) and no ability to force the author to make the recommended changes. This is worse with the worst written books as sometimes as editor is dealing with such poor work that the only way that they can help the author to provide a polished product is to offer to ghost-write it for them.
Trade or indie there is a lot of chaff to wade through for readers, just as there is for theatre goers, movie fans, music fans, etc. Same as it ever was.

I found a freelance editor on elance. Her advice not only prompted me to rewrite my entire novel but also advanced my skill at the craft a great deal.
I don't know if I just got lucky or what, but my story is a testimonial for freelance editors.
Granted, you do have to shop around...

How much fun is it? It's more fun than . . . SPAs' bad reputation.
;-)"
Good luck and hopefully your show will go better than you think it will.
Theresa

I thought I had thoroughly investigated the B.R.A.G. medallion and can find no evidence for the inside swapping. (All I did was submit a book for their consideration and wait for the result.) Could you provide clear and specific documentation? You can send me a private message if you want. I've never heard any of those allegations and would like actual proof if they are real, not just rumors. To my knowledge it's well respected, and charges the fee--which is quite low--for the acquisition of e-books for readers.

I agree. But there are reviews and there is spite. I really appreciate the reviews I get on my books. Some of them helped me to see where I needed to improve, and I keep their reviews in mind when I write. I don't rant about what they say, I learn and say thank you.
But to be spiteful in a review is something else. I received a one star review recently. And why? Because the reviewer didn't like the fact that I put "cause" in my title instead of "because"--that's it. Nothing was said about the storyline, characters, grammar, etc. Just that one word. And she accused me and all authors of bribing readers if we offer free copies in return for a review.
My question is, why the need to be spiteful? And my book is her very first review--thanks!
Books mentioned in this topic
Home by Christmas (other topics)Juror 1389: Dorsie Raines Renninger (other topics)
The Snowflake Effect: How the Self-Esteem Movement Ruined a Generation (other topics)
A Clockwork Orange (other topics)
Great personal observation. I did not perceive the brief overview of your background, publishing experience, and sales to-date to be boasting at all; merely the facts. False modesty can be just as irritating as self-absorption.
In fact, it encouraged me to review the quarterly sales reports for my one and only novel issued from Sept.1, 2011 through Sept. 30, 2014.
Paperback - 460
E-Book (Kindle/Nook/Tablet) - 403
Audio Book on CD - 33
Audio Book Download - 21
Total Units Sold - 917
The review reminded me of how fortunate I am to not be dependent upon book sales for my living. Obviously, I would have starved to death by now.
Writing a novel was just one of several items included in a Bucket List that my late wife insisted I create when I retired in 2001. So it will be my one and only novel. There are just so many other things to do and so little time.