Goodreads Authors/Readers discussion
II. Publishing & Marketing Tips
>
Do self-published ebooks have a bad reputation?
message 51:
by
David
(new)
Apr 27, 2012 07:20PM

reply
|
flag

I am actually much more inclined to read self-published books than trad-pub, because the plots of those self-published books are absolutely outstanding. 8 out of 10 times, if I like a book, it's self-published.
Still, there have been times where I just could not get through a book. One was riddled with errors, and while I'm far from perfect in my own books, this was just way too much. Another couple were very well-edited but poorly written. There was just nothing to keep my attention on the story. And I've had the same issues with trad-pub books as well.
The good book vs. bad book distinction is subjective. You can't make everyone happy.
Honestly, the only thing self-pub authors can do is keep going and learn from the journey.


That would make life better for everyone (retailers, readers, authors), with the exception of the junk producers.
I read a blog of different publishers and "most" of them said that they can fix formatting, grammer and spelling errors, but it's hard to find a great story teller.
Just a few of the publishers disagreed. The problem with self publishing is there is so much out there now that your book is hard to stand out. No matter how good it is!
I got lucky and had a KIRKUS REVIEW done on my book and it has been sent to a production company to be considered for a movie.
My book has some blunders which I plan to correct, and I was worried how it would affect my chances with a production company. My agent said it will not affect it at all. They are interested in the storyline only. :)
If I could make a suggestion, have KIRCUS review your book. I just posted my review on my goodreads and I noticed in my book giveaway, the number of people requesting it went up significantly.
KIRCUS REVIEW has a lot of clout with book sellers too.
Just a few of the publishers disagreed. The problem with self publishing is there is so much out there now that your book is hard to stand out. No matter how good it is!
I got lucky and had a KIRKUS REVIEW done on my book and it has been sent to a production company to be considered for a movie.
My book has some blunders which I plan to correct, and I was worried how it would affect my chances with a production company. My agent said it will not affect it at all. They are interested in the storyline only. :)
If I could make a suggestion, have KIRCUS review your book. I just posted my review on my goodreads and I noticed in my book giveaway, the number of people requesting it went up significantly.
KIRCUS REVIEW has a lot of clout with book sellers too.

@message 62- Try Google translate.

As for self publishing an e-book, I am considering this and a full-fledged book however after what I just told you I can assure you this I will be editing the books as much as I can and I will not have them publish it until all errors and mistakes are gone!
The key is this, go over your book and if you made the mistake I made then in the event you publish another book your going to be more cautious and edit the book yourself and have multiple editors edit the book until it's error and mistake free. Everyone is going to make mistakes and we will at times miss these but its why there should be multiple editors going over the book and when you feel all mistakes have been corrected then go ahead with publishing.

Taking that extra time to iron out all the warts and wrinkles goes a very long way in how readers see you. I'd say it's time well spent. Unless of course you wanna build a niche and start some new genre where you intentionally butcher grammar and the English language as a whole. I can just picture the title of the first book: Tim's Egregious Spelling Adventure
Martin Reed

When I started this thread, that was my sentiments exactly, even though I felt there was no excuse for it. Myself and a friend proof-read my own book until I was heartily sick of the thing, but the result was that a review did note: '...Hollow Moon has been impeccably edited—there are no typos...'.
I should add that the last few self-published works I've read have been pleasingly error-free, so maybe things are not as bad as my initial post suggests. I'm still not convinced that paying for a professional review is the solution, though.
I think there is a disturbing trend here, and most of the comments I am reading do no reflect it.
A simple analogy - If an artist has a beautiful vision in his mind but can only block out the simplest representation, his message will not get through to the viewer. The viewer has no way to get to the details of the beauty and power of his original vision.
Writing is exactly the same. In order to express complex, interesting, involving stories you must have a great command of your tool - the English language. The great writers of the world are able to captivate an audience with a single sentence.
If we continue to support the idea of English becoming internet-speak, we are taking away the very POSSIBILITY of there being great literature in the future.
As a life-long reader I think that is a travesty and a waste. I feel strongly that it is us (the readers of the world) that must exercise an appropriate level of discrimination and not support the degradation of our culture's language skills.
I am a musician, and I think most people can see what has happened to "music" in today's world. Soon we will lose literature as well if no one cares enough to do anything.
A simple analogy - If an artist has a beautiful vision in his mind but can only block out the simplest representation, his message will not get through to the viewer. The viewer has no way to get to the details of the beauty and power of his original vision.
Writing is exactly the same. In order to express complex, interesting, involving stories you must have a great command of your tool - the English language. The great writers of the world are able to captivate an audience with a single sentence.
If we continue to support the idea of English becoming internet-speak, we are taking away the very POSSIBILITY of there being great literature in the future.
As a life-long reader I think that is a travesty and a waste. I feel strongly that it is us (the readers of the world) that must exercise an appropriate level of discrimination and not support the degradation of our culture's language skills.
I am a musician, and I think most people can see what has happened to "music" in today's world. Soon we will lose literature as well if no one cares enough to do anything.
Steph wrote: "Martin wrote: "To reiterate what many in here are saying: of course a self-published book will more likely contain errors than one that's gone through the traditional channels..."
When I started t..."
Yes, I self-published five months ago, and to date have discovered one typo. I still can't pay anyone to actually read it, though; heck, I can't even give it away. My current impression is that it's all about how much you have to spend on marketing. Of course, how much you have to spend is really all it's ever about, isn't it?
When I started t..."
Yes, I self-published five months ago, and to date have discovered one typo. I still can't pay anyone to actually read it, though; heck, I can't even give it away. My current impression is that it's all about how much you have to spend on marketing. Of course, how much you have to spend is really all it's ever about, isn't it?

I only post samples from WIP on my blog, not samples that are available through Amazon, but I also have two short stories available for free downloads, and reviewers can request a free review copy of the first book in the series.
LK wrote: "The refund leaves the door wide open for people to read and say they hate it just for the refund, doesn't it? Lousy d..."
I know there are people who buy the book, copy it for their pirate site, and return the book. If you get a lot of returns, you might contact KDP support, but in most cases the refunds are genuine. And they can only be refunded within seven days of buying the e-book, so if you buy something and don't start reading it within the week, you won't be able to get a refund.

That's not correct. Firstly its about having a story people want to read, what is your genre? Maybe you niche is too narrow?
There are plenty of ways to market without spending a fortune. Have you done a review blog tour? Find one that targets your genre, get your book in front of your audience. Just be aware many reivew blogs now have a policy of no self-pub books, due to author behaviour.
A.W. wrote: "Jack wrote: "My current impression is that it's all about how much you have to spend on marketing. "
That's not correct. Firstly its about having a story people want to read, what is your genre? M..."
My apologies, fair lady. I can only speak for my own country. We used to do great things in this country, and the sad part for me is that I'm old enough to remember those times. Now we seem to be a nation of 300,000,000 people all on a common quest to figure out how to get the last dollar out of the next guy's pocket.
That's not correct. Firstly its about having a story people want to read, what is your genre? M..."
My apologies, fair lady. I can only speak for my own country. We used to do great things in this country, and the sad part for me is that I'm old enough to remember those times. Now we seem to be a nation of 300,000,000 people all on a common quest to figure out how to get the last dollar out of the next guy's pocket.


It was BuView’s inspiration spark to focus on authors, so that there could be a place for authors to get real people to read their book and review them. Learn more today at Buview.com.

That said I have read quite a few terrible trad pubbed books, riddled with errors, poor plot, and terrible grammar.
One bad experience does not mean all experience will be bad. It is a shame as there are some really great self pubbed books. Hopefully as the good books become more popular the bad ones will sink.

Learn and consistently apply proper technical writing skills; and the stigma attached to idependently and self-published books will disappear. Don't, and it won't.

They should indeed go through, at the very least, a similar process. Formatting, spelling, and grammar aren't any less important that the story. Often, the latter can't be enjoyed without the former.
As a reader, I evaluate self-published books in the same manner as trade-published books. That includes skimming a preview for writing quality and style.

After saying all that, I still experience a lack of respect from some people when they find out that my three novels are all self-published. Some of them have an aversion to reading from electronic devices, but some of them don't consider it to be the same as coming from a trade publisher. That's why I put more effort into editing and formatting than actual writing. Hopefully my readers will appreciate that (and like my writing) enough to recommend it to others.
Marketing is important too. You don't have to spend a lot of money but it has to be done if you're serious about sales. I think I have the writing and editing down pretty good now. It's the marketing I'm not so good at, but I'll get there too.

Many of the posts in various Goodreads discussion groups offer excuses why the person posting the comment can't do something or why their books don't sell well.
Sample comments (paraphrased):
It's not my fault that my books have so many misspelled words and instances of poor grammar. It's because I can't afford a professional copy editor or proofreader.
Perhaps there are so many misspelled words and grammatical errors because the author never expended the time or effort to learn technical writing skills. There are dozens of books and low-cost or free seminars available that teach such disciplines.
I'm still in school, but have already written and self-published five novels. Unfortunately, none have sold well; no matter what I do. Any advice or explanation for why I can't attract a following?
Perhaps your books don't sell well because you have written five novels while still in school. Assuming that you are doing the things a student does - attend classes, study, participate in extracurricular activities, etc. - you can't possibly have had the time or energy to focus upon writing five novels of sufficient quality to generate sales.
I can't understand why people who give me bad reviews can't just focus upon the story and characters, instead of criticizing technical writing mistakes.
The poor reviews may reflect the resentment of the readers, who felt that the author had too little respect for their expectations to expend the time and effort required to offer them a well-written story. The reviews may also be a wake-up call to encourage the author to have more confidence in his/her ability to learn and continuously improve upon their craft.
I am sure that the opinions expressed in this post will upset some who do not agree; so they will express their displeasure, outrage, and disdain for the criticism. Some people just can't help themselves.
Sometimes you trip on some really original and fresh ideas within self-published books that never would've saw the light of day because the traditional publishers wouldn't take a gamble on them. Sad but true!


If you're skilled enough to distinguish the paid/fake reviews from the real ones.

Can't understand why anyone would pay for a review though? The fact is the book will be good or bad. If someone who has a bad book pays for 'false' good reviews, eventually when some unsuspecting buyer purchases it, on the strength of the false review the buyer will write an awful, scathing review.
What am I missing??

Wow. Is this in a specific genre, or all over the board? Because most of the reviews for the books I enjoy are (or seem to be) honest.
Personally I have almost ninety reviews, the majority 4- and 5-stars, and none of them bought. Unless you consider supplying reviewers with free review copies 'buying' a review. And I can easily name several SPAs who wouldn't dream of buying reviews, just as they never would buy FB likes or Twitter followers.

Because they mistakenly believe that thousands of positive reviews equals sales. These are short term actions by shills, because not only will you be disappointed by the book you bought, but you will never read another book from that author.
Most serious authors want a wide readership, and the way to get people coming back for more is making sure that you write quality books to begin with.

Perhaps there is a connection between folk who buy reviews and the quality of the books they write:)


I'm in this for the long haul. I love writing books, I love my readers. Building a readership one by one is hard work, but I enjoy the feedback I get. My sales are not as important to me as the satisfaction that my readers enjoyed my work.
The worst thing for me is being lumped in with the dross and the frauds simply because I, like them, chose to publish my books myself. That I did it because I didn't want to sign the boilerplate contracts sent to me by interested publishers and prefer to retain my rights and exercise full control over my work doesn't mean anything to those who label all self-publishing/indie authors crap artists.
I won't spend my time trying to prove these people wrong. They've been burned, they don't want to get burned again. I get that. The only thing they are wrong about is that it's not 'all', but simply 'many' or maybe even 'most' self-publishers who use these underhanded tactics in order to make a quick buck.
Maybe I'm an exception, but I know I'm not the only one.

Personally I recommend as many eyes on the mss as possible. I usually spell check then read aloud to a willing victim. I find a LOT of errors just by reading aloud. Then I will ask friends to read a chapter on paper and point out mistakes, inconsistencies and punctuation.
Finally it will be a full beta read if I can find sensible readers, then I will shelve the book for a while and read it through myself after a suitable length of time. At publishing stage there might still be the odd punctuation error because there are things Word won't let me do, it eliminates commas within speech marks and capitalizes speech tags for example which I find infuriating. I don't know if anyone can cite a perfect book, traditional or self published, but it is a good thing to try to produce your best. On the plus side, we are able to revise and produce new editions far more easily than big publishers.
As a final thought, we British authors get largely unfair criticism for spelling errors because our spellings do differ from US versions. I think readers should be aware that we are different (many of us proudly so) and they should not accuse us of "typos" when they probably mean Oxford spelling instead of Webster's.

I don't think your the exception. Or one of a few. I suspect most SPA's are genuine. Most unfortunately languish in the Amazon basement placed 350,000 in the category list. It's only the unsavoury ones at the top like Linda mentioned who end up in the spotlight for the wrong reasons, and give all the hard working genuine guys a bad name.

That would make life better for everyone (retailers, readers, authors..."
No censorship based on one persons view of what is junk is not acceptable. What is one man's junk is another's gold. I prefer to weed through it myself and decide for myself, so no I don't want someone at Amazon or Apple deciding that for me.

Hopefully it has allowed me to locate and correct most errors in my book.
I've seen bad spelling and formatting etc in professionally produced epubs. If the story is gripping enough I'll happily overlook the occasional error (Human error after all is unavoidable)

I wrote a whole series of books before I even realized I was 'supposed' to write particular stuff because it's 'in' right now. So, of course, it's self-pub for me. Oh and I is broke. I did my own edits with a tiny bit of help from beta readers.
Then, after realizing that many many many book review sites despised SPAs and Indies, I decided to offer reviews to 'us'.
I review for free and post true reviews. And I sure as heck don't read everything I'm sent, because it is so not all up to par. (I've heard the excuses when I declined some for atrocities against the language.) But I believe in giving books a chance that I otherwise would NEVER have seen. And there have been some ROCK stars...
And duds...
But isn't that SO TRUE in the Big Six and any traditionally published book??

THANK YOU for saying that.
My sentiments exactly and the looks I've gotten when I've expressed not wanting to hand over control and rights to someone who is more interested in twigging my work into a *marketable genre* than the integrity of the story . . .
Jack Cady is one writer who had a terrible time getting his third and subsequent books published (I believe there was a nine year dearth) because they didn't fit neatly into a genre slot. An award winning author: the Bram Stoker, Nebula, Phillip K. Dick, World Fantasy . . .
So it's not just us unknowns and firsties.

No one should go into writing with that mentality the same as no musician/ artist should either. They should do it because they love it, because it's the only thing that makes sense. If you write what you love and you write it well people will recognise you; eventually.
I'm starting out, and I'm humbled simply that someone may read even a free version of my work. Do I want to make a living out of this? Yes. Will I get annoyed that my work isn't immediately loved? No. Why? Because I'm new, raw, just a kitten prodding around in a big jungle.
My advice to new writers would be to have patience and keep writing. Get better at it. Write more. Publish more. If your work isn't selling , find out why. Maybe you're not marketing it properly or the subject matter isn't gripping people (maybe it's been done too often or just not interesting enough). Don't be discouraged. Adapt, ask for reviews, give your work out for free.
Grow up first, and success will come :-)

It isn't always money or numbers.
Sometimes it is writing/making music or art ethically, honestly; staying true to the story, the song or the whatever form your art takes.

I read very few trad published books these days because this so called gatekeeping is about pure saleability. I read classics of course and those books that come highly recommended on arts programmes. Booker and Pulitzer prize stuff or those recommended as such. I don't have any interest in ghostwritten mainstream celebrity pap. I prefer to give honest indies a chance. The day indies alter their writing to fit mainstream ideas of what they should be writing is the day I lose interest in them.

Definitely a Yes. This is why I write. It's a creative release. Also, I'm proud of my work, and I want others to be proud of it also. That's why I spend countless hours making sure it is a quality product.
Sadly there are those wanting to make a quick buck, so they write it and publish it. Write another one and publish. Just get words out there and make money by selling quantity, not quality. I agree, the majority of SPAs try to put out a quality product and want to control the rights for their work. It's almost always a few that give a bad impression and the rest of us are stamped with that label.
Paying someone for a good review? I can see the people I just mentioned doing that. It falls into the category of buyer beware. I would rather have ten bad reviews than one good paid-for review. At least, the bad reviews would tell me what I'm doing wrong.

Maybe reviews will hint at what is good/bad about your books, but I prefer to sort that out before I publish. By using proofreaders, editors, and beta-readers, I know I put out the best book I can write. And I know my work is solid, because none of my reviews complain about the technical aspects that should be fixed prior to publication, i.e. grammar, editing, formatting. If your reviews mention an abundance of errors and typos, you haven't been professional in your efforts to self-publish.

I don't understand why this is such a difficult concept to understand."
*Like*

True. I meant that if writers are going to rely on good, paid-for reviews to cover up the issues with the book, they would be better off listening to the honest reviews and fixing the problems. Of course, it's much better to do it right the first time instead doing it over. Learn the trade, create a quality work, then publish it.
If you have a well written, properly edited book, you should be able to achieve better results by giving away copies to honest reviewers than by paying for good reviews.

Your post suggests the issue is black and white. The author has to write only for the money, or for the satisfaction of writing. Sorry, but the bulk of us are gray. We write because we want to share our stories, but we also expect to be paid for the years of hard work put into it. There is nothing wrong with promoting one's work. How are people going to get to read your book if they don't know about it?
Self publishing quality is the big issue. For every hack who throws together a bad book, the rest of us take the black eye for it. Keep in mind, though. Not everyone who has a story idea and wants to write it has access to the tools to polish and proofread it. They believe their work is good, and just don't know any better. My first novel took over 10 years to write because I needed to learn the craft. It took putting it through a good writers' critique group for me to discover how much I needed to learn about writing fiction. That novel was rewritten more times than I can count, and I'm sure I could go back and fine tune it some more. But there comes a point when you have to say enough. Now, with 5 novels under my belt, and working on a 6th, I can see my early self in many of the self-published authors who didn't have access to, or didn't even try to find, other writers who could help them discover what they are doing wrong, and what they are doing right, in their writing. And don't get me started on the idea that all authors have to be able to afford to pay a professional editor. In today's economic times, that is a pipe dream most of us couldn't hope to afford. Writing should not be limited to only those with money.
Lastly, I believe it is perfectly acceptable to want fair reviews of the books published. I've seen some terrible reviews on some of the best books I've read. While the only complaint I have about a reviewer of my work is that he made references to not liking the cover to the novel, and I had no way of contacting him to find out some specifics so I can understand and learn from his opinion, I have seen reviews on other people's work that were out-right unfair. Come on, now. If you don't like a genre', don't read a book in it just so you can write a nasty review. Or, if you don't like the author personally, don't write a review of their book tainted by that bias. And if you are only reading sample chapters off Amazon, don't review the book. Have the common courtesy to review only books you have bought, or acquired in their entirety. I've only ever reviewed one book that I have not read from cover to cover. That was the Lord Of The Rings. And the content of my review pretty much said I didn't finish it, and why I chose to stop reading. As stated by others, a bad but fair review helps the author learn from their mistakes. Sometimes, you can get more out of a well-written bad review than a simplistic good review.
The bottom line to my rant is, don't belittle a writer because he wants to earn money from the years of hard work he put into it. Don't belittle him because he wants a fair review, or wants people to know his book is out there. Most importantly, don't judge all self-published writers based upon the high volume of bad or still learning ones. There are really good self-published works out there. Take the time to search them out, and support the authors of those books.

For every mega-million $$$ generating volume of pap there are truly luminous works that languish, largely undiscovered by even sophisticated readers. Even when they receive accolades and coveted awards from revered sources.
Example: how many of you have even heard of Jack Cady?
Accolades: Publishers Weekly "Cady's stories have the humor and comfortable mastery of Faulkner or Steinbeck." - The National Review "Jack Cady is above all, a writer of great, unmistakable integrity and profound feeling... Jack Cady's is a voice we need to hear." - Peter Straub "His structural control and the laconic richness of his style establish Cady in the front rank... " - Library Journal "[Jack Cady is] an exceptional writer." - Joyce Carol Oates "[Jack Cady is] a lasting voice in modern American literature" - Atlanta Constitution
Look at his GoodReads page for some of the awards, although I'm not sure being compared favorably to Faulkner and Steinbeck mightn't be the biggest award of all.
That's the way it goes. The only reward we can count on, as writers, is the internal one of knowing we have written with integrity, honesty and earnestness.
The external stuff is great, but all we can count on is what we, ourselves, know. If that's not enough we need to find something else with an easier payoff.
Books mentioned in this topic
Home by Christmas (other topics)Juror 1389: Dorsie Raines Renninger (other topics)
The Snowflake Effect: How the Self-Esteem Movement Ruined a Generation (other topics)
A Clockwork Orange (other topics)