ARCHIVE - 7. BYZANTIUM... January 16th ~ January 22nd ~~ Part Two - Chapter ELEVEN and TWELVE (119 - 140); No Spoilers Please

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Hello Everyone,

For the week of January 16th - January 22nd, we are reading approximately the next 21 pages of Byzantium by Judith Herrin.

The seventh week's reading assignment is:

Week Seven: January 16th - January 22nd (2012)::

Chapter 11: A Literate and Articulate Society 119

Chapter 12: Saints Cyril and Methodios, 'Apostles to the Slavs" 131

We will open up a thread for each week's reading. Please make sure to post in the particular thread dedicated to those specific chapters and page numbers to avoid spoilers. We will also open up supplemental threads as we did for other spotlighted books.

This book was kicked off on December 5th. We look forward to your participation. Amazon, Barnes and Noble, Borders and other noted on line booksellers do have copies of the book and shipment can be expedited. The book can also be obtained easily at your local library, or on your Kindle.

There is no rush and we are thrilled to have you join us. It is never too late to get started and/or to post.

Welcome,

~Bentley


TO ALWAYS SEE ALL WEEKS' THREADS SELECT VIEW ALL

by Judith Herrin

REMEMBER NO SPOILERS ON THE WEEKLY NON SPOILER THREADS

Notes:

It is always a tremendous help when you quote specifically from the book itself and reference the chapter and page numbers when responding. The text itself helps folks know what you are referencing and makes things clear.

Citations:

If an author or book is mentioned other than the book and author being discussed, citations must be included according to our guidelines. Also, when citing other sources, please provide credit where credit is due and/or the link. There is no need to re-cite the author and the book we are discussing however.

If you need help - here is a thread called the Mechanics of the Board which will show you how:

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/2...


Glossary

Remember there is a glossary thread where ancillary information is placed by the moderator. This is also a thread where additional information can be placed by the group members regarding the subject matter being discussed.

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/5...

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Chapter Overviews and Summaries

Chapter Eleven - A Literate and Articulate Society

One reason for believing that arguments about the role of icons were widely known, stubbornly held and passed on through generations is that Byzantium was an articulate society in which literacy was highly appreciated.

Chapter Eleven discussed the educational system and studies available to the citizenry.

Chapter Twelve - Saints Cyril and Methodios, 'Apostles to the Slavs'


This chapter discusses Saints Cyril and Methodios.

"In the ninth century, two brothers, Methodios and Constantine, who lived in Thessalonike, where there father Leo was a military officer, learned to speak Slavonic. Many Slavs came to the city to trade and bilingualism was a feature of life on the imperial frontiers. But these two young men were exceptionally good at languages. When Patriarch Photios realizes this, he encouraged the brothers to invent a way of writing down Slavonic. They devised an alphabet to represent the sounds of the spoken tongue and began to translate the key texts of orthodoxy. Their first attempt produced an alphabet called Glagolitic, which later developed into Church Slavonic; their second is still in use in Russia today. This alphabet is called Cyrillic after Constantine's adoption of the monastic name Cyril before he idea in 869. The brothers became known as Saints Cyril and Methodios, "Apostles to the Slavs".

[Karolyn]

Chapter 11 reminded me of our earlier discussions regarding the level of learning and knowledge in Byzantium during the Dark Ages. I was impressed with the breadth of the curriculum that students were taught. Not just the Classics and philosophy, but also sciences. There also seemed to be lot of knowledge sharing with the Arabs, particularly in the sciences.

Learning was tied to the church, with momistaries as educational centers. But unlike the West, it seems that the Eastern Church was not afraid to teach new material and expand horizons where the Western Church taught tradition and was wary of new ideas. The work of Cyril and Methodios exemplifies this. They invented a new written language to spread the Orthodox faith and the Church understood that new converts would be more willing to convert if they could worship in their own language.

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

I agree; really and truly what the Western Church has propagandized over the years to so many; who knew that the Eastern Church really was the source of so much of what we know of Christian religious beliefs today.

[☯Emily]

I am puzzled by a statement made by the author in chapter 11 on the top of page 126 (my edition). The author is talking about math and science knowledge. She says, "Of the thirteen books of theorems by Diophantos...ten survive in Arabic, six in Greek and three are lost, suggesting that in the early ninth century Muslim scholars translated the most complete version then known."

The author mentions 13 books, but she say that what survives totals 16, with three lost. In addition, how does this suggest that the Muslims translated the most complete version then known? I did a little research on my own, but could find nothing on-line that substantiates Herrin's assertion.

[☯Emily]

Herrin states on the last page of chapter 12 that Islam never had a reformation for demanding a translation of the Qur'an into other languages other than Arabic. However, I have seen an English translation of the Qur'an and it has been translated into most modern languages. Most Muslims I know in this country read the Qur'an in English.

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Emily wrote: "Herrin states on the last page of chapter 12 that Islam never had a reformation for demanding a translation of the Qur'an into other languages other than Arabic. However, I have seen an English tr..."

Emily wrote: "I am puzzled by a statement made by the author in chapter 11 on the top of page 126 (my edition). The author is talking about math and science knowledge. She says, "Of the thirteen books of theor..."

Emily, there is this book which I have not read which may say more:
by Ad Meskens

Travelling Mathematics - The Fate of Diophantos' Arithmetic
By Ad Meskens

You can google it - very pricey even as an ebook:

http://books.google.com/books?id=zZ_i...

[☯Emily]

I saw this last reference. It says there are only four theorems of the book left. Like I said, Herrin's comment is puzzling and I can't find any verification of any of the numbers she gives.

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

You may want to write to Herrin and see if she responds. I did write to her to try to see if she would participate in the forum but I got no response.

[Patricrk]

Emily wrote: "I am puzzled by a statement made by the author in chapter 11 on the top of page 126 (my edition). The author is talking about math and science knowledge. She says, "Of the thirteen books of theor..."

I took it to mean of the 13 books, 10 are known from Arabic copies and 6 of these are duplicated in Greek as well.

[Becky]

Emily wrote: "Herrin states on the last page of chapter 12 that Islam never had a reformation for demanding a translation of the Qur'an into other languages other than Arabic. However, I have seen an English tr..."

True but they didn't need a Reformation to do it. They started translating the Koran about 200 years after it was first written. (Of course the translated Koran is not really the pure and inspired word, but ...)

[Zeljka]

For me, chapter 12 was interesting especially because it tackles subjects Slavs (among them Croatians) are proud of. I mean, we had to learn glagolytic letters in our high school, so to know to write our name on the notebooks :-) That was really awesome experience.
However, it seems that Herrin altogether missed to mention the arrival of Cyril and Methodius to Croatia (then actually a couple of different states - Pannonia, Dalmatia etc), where people developed another variation of glagolytic letter, which was in use more-less pretty long, till 19th century.
What's more important, since their arrival till today our dioceses were the only ones where the liturgy was constantly worshiped in people's language, an exception from the rule that was officially permitted by Roman Catholic Church. That means a lot if you know how heated were the debates regarding the use of language other than latin in the liturgy, which were finally resolved at the 2nd Vatican Council.

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Interesting post Zeljika.

[Elizabeth S]

Wow, Zeljika, it doesn't take much for you to add a lot to what was in the book. Thanks for your perspective, awesome.

I think I like Saints Cyril and Methodios. What a challenge, to create a whole written alphabet for a people. I put a big smiley-face by what they said to the "only three sacred languages" people on the bottom of page 133, "they should be ashamed to command all other nations to be blind and deaf." And then used the scriptures to substantiate their claim.

[Zeljka]

Elizabeth S wrote: "I put a big smiley-face by what they said to the "only three sacred languages" people on the bottom of page 133, "they should be ashamed to command all other nations to be blind and deaf." And then used the scriptures to substantiate their claim. "

Oh yes, it's hard not to admire them! When I read that sentence, my first thought was - wow, they were so honorable and brave, both in words and in deeds, really rare sight today. I guess it would be interesting to read something about their life in more detail, really how did they manage to achieve so much in those difficult times.