Book Club discussion
EDITING
date
newest »
newest »
Excellent PointS!You're so very correct, I submit you were correct in not just letting that go!! I totally see your point and agree with.
I dare say this has been the most inlightening and fun discussion I have had on this website to date. I only wish more people were getting involved in it. I hope in time others will read along and join in.
Thank You Sharon! Excellent points all around!
I have loved the discussions so for on this thread but would like to turn the direction to something more productive and helpful, If I might?How do you Edit your pieces?
Is there a procedure you follow? Looking for misspelling, then punctuation, then etc.?
Do you read your entire piece backwards sentence by sentence so as not to get caught up in reading the piece and looking just at the mechanics and grammar?
Blindly, make the corrections somebody else suggests because you don't know any better. (This is my style, as I couldn't write a proper sentence to save my life.)
What and How do authors edit their work, techniques, tips of the trade?
Please share! We are here to help one another, correct?
I edit differently with each read through. The first is to catch typos and clean up sentences. Then I edit dialogue and things like chapter/scene openers and endings. Then I look at tension, characterization and plot on the next read through. The final, before beta readers, is reading it backward to find anything I may have missed on the first.After all of that I send it to at least 6 beta readers. It's not a magic number, just a thing I have. I edit based on their feedback send send it to half that many (at least) for a second round. If I had a lot of cash, that's when I'd send it to an editor. ;)
Cool, Thanks for the tips! Those of us just starting will be taking notes.
Thomas wrote: "I have loved the discussions so for on this thread but would like to turn the direction to something more productive and helpful, If I might?How do you Edit your pieces?
Is there a procedure y..."
First, I write. Even if it's crap, I get it on the page. I don't even worry about typos at that point.
When I've finished the first draft, the first thing I do is spell check. I know that won't pick up everything, but it will get a lot. The next thing I do is let it rest for a few days ... and then I read it through. Waiting helps me see it more clearly than if I tried to do the next edit immediately. I inevitably find something spell-check missed, and I can fix grammar gaffes as I find them. Then, I wait a few more days and do it again. By then, I'm in my third draft and I still consider it rough. That's when I hand it off to beta readers. Like Renee, I follow through on their feedback ... and then wait a few more days before going over it one more time.
Next, I convert it to a .doc (I use Mac) and send it through Microsoft's spell check (which sometimes picks up things the other one missed) ... and then it goes for the last beta read.
Even after all of this, I want you to know that I still sometimes find things in the printed proof that need to be fixed prior to release.
I spell-check as I go along (I'm fast at typing but my fingers end up as sausages too sometimes *grin*) and all those wiggly red and green lines drive me nuts. So I correct that right away, as I'm writing.First draft finished - means I've written The End on the ms - I'll give it a few days to 1 week to stew, and then I'll do a read-through, start to finish. Since I've also been trained as an editor, at this point I will notice (or have a better idea) on what words I'm crutching on, what expressions I'm using often. I'll also pick up character specifics here, for example, my heroine says "good grief" and my hero says "Gorblimey". I'll also spot if there are plot holes and/or ambiguity at certain parts, if continuity is working, that sort of deal (just FYI - this is what is called, and what I also call, Broad Notes. It's the first edit a client receives if I'm hired as full-scale editor. Generally, this is "what is wrong/not working with this story). No line by line so far.
Next round of edits is to address crutch words, recurring expressions, clean up the different POVs and make them distinct.
After that, another round where I go through line by line, looking at the words and not the whole story. I have a tendency towards passive voice, and using "and" a lot in my sentences. I'll look for these here, tighten the verbs, that sort of thing. Correct punctuation, grammar, etc. All the nitty gritty.
Another read-through, start to finish.
After this, the story goes to my beta readers. When their comments come back, I address whatever they have spotted.
By which time, I submit to my in-house editor. I'll also usually clean up the story according to the house's style guide.
Clear as mud, eh? :)
Thomas,Once I finish the first draft, I let the work sit for a while... a few months. I started editing a work in this month that I wrote last February.
I edit one scene at a time.
1) I start by doing a simple spell/grammar check.
2) I listen to the scene using text-to-speech, making corrections as I go along. Each time I make a correction, I back up several sentences or even paragraphs to make sure I didn't incorporate any mistakes and the work flows smoothly.
3) I check for overused words using the AutoCrit Editing Wizard.
4) I repeat step #2.
5) I repeat step #1.
6) I move on to the next scene.
Once I finish the entire work, I'll send it to beta readers. If any changes are needed, I'll make them and repeat the process above on the scenes which were changed.
I'll read through the entire work to make sure I didn't incorporate any plot glitches. After that, I format the work for publication and send it out.
My work isn't perfect. Could additional eyes catch more errors? Sure! If you find one, send me an email, and I'll happily make the correction. :) Still, I'm comfortable with the editing job on my books.
I'm not shrugging my shoulders and saying, "That's good enough." I personally think I do a decent job self-editing my books for publication. Like I said, not perfect, but pretty good and nothing to be ashamed about.
Despite the occasional flaws, I don't think people read my works and reject my future books because of poor editing. For other reasons, sure, but not for the editing.
I have a firm grasp of the English language and take the time to be thorough. Only a handful of reviewers have mentioned finding errors but not enough to pull them out of the work. I don't know if they mentioned the errors because there are a bit more than they see in traditional works or if it's because my works are self-published and poor editing is a concern. Either way, reviewers mention the few errors they find as minor issues.
For me, an editor would be great to have, but cost-prohibited business-wise at this point in my career. If I had the money for editing, it could be better spent elsewhere to boost sales. I certainly don't think paying an editor $400-2000 would change my sales numbers. If my grammar and spelling were horrendous, I might think otherwise.
Really, everyone comes to the table with different skills and resources. It's up to the individual to determine how best to apply what one has.
Reena - I never thought of using text-to-speech. Thanks for the tip!!
Renee wrote: "...why would you ever consider putting out a book that's "good enough"? Why would you not put out your best work? ..."Hear, hear, Renee!
Sharon wrote: "Thomas wrote: "Not everybody gets hung up on the English and Mechanics - Obviously! "Those of us who have made our living with grammar and mechanics (remember, I was once a newspaper editor) most..."
I agree Sharon! Then there are the authors who seem clueless about the difference between possessives and plurals...WTF???
How difficult can it be to at least run spell and grammar checks even if they're fallible??
My version of Microsoft Word is backwards on several common issues of possessives and plurals. No help there. :-)
Is the difference between possessives and plurals really that big an issue? I did not realize this.
Well, that's the problem with Word's spell- and grammar-check. They are fallible. As far as I know there is no software out there that will explore for context to determine if the grammar, spelling, or punctuation is correct.
Well, I suppose the only option, since we are all writers, is to LEARN the difference. No?
Renee wrote: "Is the difference between possessives and plurals really that big an issue? I did not realize this."Um, yeah. Possessives indicate ownership. Plurals indicate more than one.
Renee, "its" and "it's" is the classic example. The first on means "belonging to it" and the second is a contraction for "it is." Also one of the most common mistakes I see in billboards, signs, and facebook posts. :-)
Renee wrote: "Is the difference between possessives and plurals really that big an issue? I did not realize this."Um, yes.
Sorry. I should have said the first "one."
I'm not saying I don't know the difference. I wrote a book on writing, so if I didn't know...well that would be inexcusable. I just assumed most writers would know the basics. And possessives and plurals are the basics. It's disappointing.
Kathy wrote: "Well, that's the problem with Word's spell- and grammar-check. They are fallible. As far as I know there is no software out there that will explore for context to determine if the grammar, spelling..."The co-author on my first book says that Microsoft needs an eff-up check with a button that looks like this: >:-(
Sharon wrote: "Kathy wrote: "Well, that's the problem with Word's spell- and grammar-check. They are fallible. As far as I know there is no software out there that will explore for context to determine if the gra...":)
Thank you to all of the authors who posted their editing tips. Very much appreciated.
Very much indeed! Thank You everybody!
I highly recommend AGAINST using the Word Grammar Mangler. It doesn't check if your grammar usage is correct, it checks to see if there is an alternative usage and recommends that, even if it isn't appropriate. The tool should have been written to say "Did you mean this, or that?" and make the user decide. Way too many people use the Word Grammar Mangler and just blindly accept any suggestions it makes. Bad Move.
Doc
Renee wrote: "I just assumed most writers would know the basics."I've decided that this is a topic I take personally. In this new publishing world we inhabit, writers who don't know the basics have the effect of getting us all tarred with the same brush.
http://www.fatherspledge.com/and-now-...
The Word grammar check isn't perfect, but I find it helpful and use it. It's a tool I'm reluctant to toss aside just because it's flawed. On many occasions it's caught grammar errors I've missed. It's also made incorrect suggestions. However, my grammar is decent enough I can determine if a suggestion is appropriate or not.I see it like this: If the individual has poor grammar skills, regardless of how flawed Word's grammar check is, it'll be better than what he/she can do alone. On the other hand, if the individual has decent grammar skills, he/she will be able to weed the good from the bad suggestions. And if the grammar check picks up even one error, the self-editor missed, then he/she's in the plus.
Let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater.
Anyone have any suggestions for grammar software which is specifically designed with the creative writer in mind? I've tried WhiteSmoke, which isn't bad. However, it's seems better for non-fiction writers than creative writers.
So we have had some awesome suggestions, and good discussion.What Ideas do we have for the Indie Writer, the person who feels inspired to write no matter what, but they don't know English terminology, possessives and plurals, adjectives, verbs, nouns, dangling modifiers, and all the many others that make up this wonderful language. Spell checkers and grammar programs are not going to help me, or the many who are like me. I am studying English.
The two subjects that I can't seem to get a grasp on through reading a book in the entire Universe is Calculus and English!
I am creating a check list of things to check for, words that are alike but different, techniques and tricks and have save up 550 dollars to put towards paying an editor to help me with my next book. As soon I have a great editor and can afford it I will have both of my first books re-edited and fixed.
That's what's so frustrating is getting more five and four star ratings for those that get and actually read my work. The majority of those who read it love it. But I am getting ripped for the English, and that can be fixed. Just not be me with my meager skills and I am sure there are many others out there like me.
So creative hats on, Self-help English teaching books, programs, exercises, check lists and ideas for proofing, editing, and fixing the English and the Mechanics. Time to push the envelope and share.
I think taking English courses is a good start, Thomas. Not everyone is a pro at English... we all have different skills. If you're in college, you might take advantage of some of the resources you have and hire a student to edit your work. You might also try a critique group/community, which are often free.One thing to consider with editing: It cost less to edit the more prepared your work is. For example, it's usually cheaper to contract for proofreading services than a line-by-line edit. Plus, after a line-by-line edit, it's still recommended to get a final proofreading. Some works might need a critique or developmental work before even getting to the line-by-line stage.
If you combine your skill with beta readers and critters, you might be able to safe yourself money. Might take a bit longer to get through your work though. It's the idea of picking two of the three: cheap, fast, and good.
In answer to the many who asked about grammar self-help books, I would like to offer up two that any writer worth his or her salt should have at hand.The Elements of Style and The Complete Plain Words are both readily available and easy to use. I cannot recommend them highly enough.
Taking courses in English is a good idea. The Elements of style is a GREAT book. Also, read good books -- ones that use the language well. English and lit teachers can recommend them. Read books in the genres you wish to write. Get a feel for how good authors express those themes and stories.
Thomas wrote: "What Ideas do we have for the Indie Writer, the person who feels inspired to write no matter what, but they don't know English terminology..."Handbooks are invaluable, and taking courses is also good. But my suggestion is to get into a good critique group. And that applies to any writer, actually, since such groups give feedback on stuff like plot and character as well as mechanics. There's no substitute for having someone show you, via specific instances, how your sentences miss the mark (or conversely telling you what's good so you can build on it).
Mary wrote: "Taking courses in English is a good idea. The Elements of style is a GREAT book. Also, read good books -- ones that use the language well. English and lit teachers can recommend them. Read books in..."Oh, Mary, you are soooo right! It's partly why I get so frustrated, and yes, angry with writers who publish poorly edited work. People learn their English from reading. And how are they to know that a particular book is using horrible English!!
Sharon wrote: "Thomas wrote: "Not everybody gets hung up on the English and Mechanics - Obviously! "Those of us who have made our living with grammar and mechanics (remember, I was once a newspaper editor) most..."
Oh, I completely agree. You don't expect the plumber to work for free. Why expect an editor to do this??
All this has pushed me into posting a tutorial on my blog for writers and editors that I've been meaning to do forever on how to use Microsoft Word's Markup Tool.
For those writers who haven't used it, give it a try as it does leave your original file intact while visually providing access to changes, and allowing you to accept, reject, and comment.
I saw that feature for the first time when a blog I was doing a guest post for used it to edit my post and send it back to me for my approval of their changes. I was blown away. I still don't know how to use that Tool and I need to learn how to build a template for Mircosoft Word for formatting my books for Createspace. Thank You Kathy I will check that out.Also Sharon I received my copy of "The Complete Plain Words" today to go with a collection of other English books to start learning how to properly put down my words in a correct manner. Thank You for the suggestion!
Thomas wrote: "Also Sharon I received my copy of "The Complete Plain Words" today to go with a collection of other English books to start learning how to properly put down my words in a correct manner. Thank You for the suggestion! "You are most welcome. :-)
Book Club
Books mentioned in this topic
The Elements of Style (other topics)Complete Plain Words (other topics)
How do you know if people want to read your work? Join critique circles, writer's forums, find beta readers, offer the work for free first. Selling a less than stellar product is not the way to find out if you're any good. It is the way to establish a reputation for shoddy work.
When you publish your work and sell it, you become a sort of business. Your readers are your customers. They have the right to expect the best product you can possibly give them. Two edits on a manuscript, and you feel that's your best? I disagree.
Let's look at it another way. If you bought your kids a pair of shoes and two days later the bottom fell off, you'd return it to the store for a new pair or a refund, no? What if the explanation for the shoddy workmanship was that the manufacturer couldn't afford to use the proper glue on their shoes but felt that the design and presentation was still worth the money so they went ahead and shipped them anyway with subpar glue so that they could make enough cash to use the good stuff on the next shipment? Would you be pissed off? Would you buy that brand again? Just as every step of the shoe manufacturing process must be done properly and with quality material, there are more parts to the writing process than a good storyline. I've stopped reading books based on weak characterization or shitty dialogue, even when the plot was really good. One good piece of material used with twenty cheap materials doesn't make it worth buying.
When you publish a book and ask money in return for allowing a person to read it, you're putting yourself up for criticism. This is how writing and publishing works. You're saying "Here, buy my book." The reader is forking over the cash and if he thinks it's crap, that cash that he paid gives him or her the right to say "this had twenty typos and the dialogue sucked". Just because he didn't like it doesn't put him under any obligation to offer you "free" help. You didn't offer him a "free" error-filled book.
Editors are part of the writing process for a reason. They have value. It seems a lot of money to fork out, but it is more than worth it. If you choose to go the self-publishing route, that's the price you pay. I've edited work by other authors, and let me tell you, if it were me doing it as my job, I'd charge a hell of a lot more than the prices I've seen listed here.