1. JOHN QUINCY ADAMS~~INTRODUCTION and CHAPTER ONE (ix - 24) (1/9/12 - 1/15/12)~No Spoilers, please

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Yes, ditto to the above post. When folks are too much alike they butt heads.

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

I wonder with John Adam (the father) so frequent absences away from the family that this is what affected JQAs temperament; moving around to Braintree and back and having to put up with all that. Tough on Abigail too. JQAs temperament and how he got along with folks and his being rather difficult may have contributed to his father sending him off early and giving him something to do.

That author brings this up very early on in Chapter One. This was a difficult boy to get along with.

[Bryan]

You bring up some interesting points. How well did he get to know his father up to this point? Probably not very well, between his law practice and politics. You have this larger than life father. I think their relationship will improve later overseas. It must have had an impact as you say Bentley; these were difficult times to grow up in.

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

For sure, and with no strong father figure around.

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

It seems because folks called his father a hero that JQA tried to emulate John Adams Senior and his personal style yet inwardly he seems to be so much more like his mother than he probably would ever let on. He emulated and made one parent a hero in his mind yet it seems that Abigail was demonized in a way (and she was the one dealing with him day in and day out at the beginning). She was the disciplinarian from what I can see thus far.

I guess that I do not buy that Abigail was condescending to males; she had many males that she corresponded with and they all thought highly of her. What did you think Bryan about that comment?

I do agree that once JQA was alone with his father abroad that of course they would bond in a way that males do; not sure if that was good for JQA or if it contributed in a way to his not being adequately influenced by his mother more. The author I think seems to feel that JQA and his mother were constantly at odds due to her brother's fate; I find that a bit hard to to embrace as well. But JQA was not only a difficult adult but a difficult child so maybe this is part of his make-up and upbringing. And certainly what he ended up being was as a result of his parents and his environment and influences (good or bad).

[Bryan]

Yeah, you truly get a feeling that most words written between son and mother are not that good. I'm not sure this is accurate. We would have to retrace the letters ourselves to find out if it is accurate.

If we read a biography on Abigail, we might get a different picture...

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Yes, I had done that and never got the impression that the author is conveying. But retracing the letters I have not done.

[Vincent]

Bentley wrote: "It seems because folks called his father a hero that JQA tried to emulate John Adams Senior and his personal style yet inwardly he seems to be so much more like his mother than he probably would ev..."

I just want to comment that traveling an adolesant child and a parent is certainly a bonding but I would think not as men but as parent & child. Otherwise the subsequent remarks made by John the father would be inconsistent with being both men.
Persaonal experience also says that one's children are always one's children and I think it takes a long time into adulthood to bond the parent and child as equals. Also JQA is constantly, so far, supported by his folks so I would view the bonding as a real bonding but not between men so to say.

[Bryan]

Makes some sense, Vince. I think the bonding experience would be different if both were adults. But at least they were bonding, which could lead to a stronger relationship.

[Elizabeth S]

Coming late to the party, here. But I finished reading the whole book already, so hopefully it won't take me long to catch up on commenting! (And yes, I will be careful about spoilers.)

I appreciated the introduction the author gives us. Unlike many introductions, it was actually helpful! Just about all that I knew about JQA was that he was president of the US and son of John Adams. The introduction helped set the stage for me, giving a brief and general overview of the man. I am impressed with JQA's journal-keeping. Even back in those days when writing was more common, JQA's commitment to his journal was quite impressive. (If I ever accidentally become famous enough for someone to write a bio about me, I'm going to wish I had kept a better journal!)

[Elizabeth S]

Vince wrote: "PS - sorry - forgot one observation -

pg 10 - the inscription of John Adams on the burial stone of Henry Adams........ "Veneration of the piety, humility, simplicity, prudence, patience, temperance, frugality, industry and perseverance"

Makes me think of

A (boy) Scout is trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful (maybe kill the cheerful for the Adams), thrifty, brave, clean, reverent --- from memory after all these years

Pretty impressive, Vince. Once a Boy Scout, always a Boy Scout, right? My son was just learning the scout law a few weeks ago, so it is rather fresh in my mind. :)

[Elizabeth S]

With all this letter writing while waiting for a ship, I'm a little curious. If there isn't a ship that can take you where you are going, how is it that you can send a letter to where you are going? See page 17, for example, where John and JQA are waiting for a ship to take them from France to Massachusetts. During the weeks that they wait it says that John sent "another enthusiastic report to Abigail." Was he really just writing the report and then taking it with him, or was there a way for the mail to get through?

I am impressed, by the way, with how well Nagel does with differentiating between John Adams and JQA. It is tricky when names are so similar, but I think Nagel does a great job.

As with others, I am impressed by the education JQA received and what he was encouraged to study. Without a formal school situation, so much of the study had to be self-driven. Even with a tutor/father who says, "read this" and "do this", a student would have to have some drive to do that successfully.

[Bryan]

Welcome, Elisabeth. I think he wrote letters and reports and probably sent them on a ship going back. It does take a long time to communicate, doesn't it?

[Elizabeth S]

Bryan wrote: "Welcome, Elisabeth. I think he wrote letters and reports and probably sent them on a ship going back. It does take a long time to communicate, doesn't it?"

Thanks for the welcome, Bryan.

That makes sense for sending things back where one came from, but sometimes (such as on page 17) I think they are writing to people in the same direction as they are going. So, while waiting for a ship to Mass., writing a letter to Abigail in Mass. I'm wondering if maybe there were mail ships that were smaller or faster or something that means they can sail more often or without passengers?

[Bryan]

I know they used stagecoaches over better roads, but I suspect they used smaller, faster boats to get mail along the coast. However, I am not sure if they had dedicated mail ships but just piggy-backed on other boats, possibly had contracts. Maybe someone in the group might know.