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Buddy Reads Discussions > Count of Monte Cristo Chap. 15 thru 20

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message 1: by [deleted user] (last edited Jan 10, 2012 06:39AM) (new)

To encourage discussion, this thread WILL CONTAIN SPOILERS. Please limit the discussion to content from chapters 15 thru 20. For some/many of us, this is a first read. No need to mark spoilers, but please don't discuss events beyond chapter 20. Thanks for joining the discussion, and enjoy!

Chapter 20 ends with Edmond being thrown into the sea.


message 2: by [deleted user] (new)

I have just finished Chapter 16, where Edmond meets the abbe'.


message 3: by [deleted user] (new)

You're zipping right along!


message 4: by [deleted user] (new)

It's fun to read!

I'm curious about two things: Does it get "rough" later on? The introduction mentions "an extended scene of torture and execution; drug-induced sexual fantasies; vampirism" (among others). Is this a shocking read in terms of when it was written, or am I going to be skimming passages at some later point? (I don't want spoilers, just a general heads-up. I am quite the squeamish reader! lol)

Also, you have an org chart in your review. I haven't looked at it for fear of spoilers. Is that the best course of action for me at this point?


message 5: by [deleted user] (new)

I don't remember the vampires!! I'm pretty squeamish too, and I don't remember it being too bad. I think it was shocking at the time, but not now. The sex is pretty tame, and the torture and execution is standard fare of the time. Again pretty tame compared to today's standards.

Don't look at that chart!


message 6: by [deleted user] (new)

Thanks, Hayes! I guess the blurbs like to make things sound sensational.

I did not look at the chart, because I have a feeling it will reveal spoilers.


message 7: by [deleted user] (new)

I have just finished this section, and I really enjoyed the time Edmond spent with the Abbe. I am sure that if the two escaped together, things would be different for our Count.


message 8: by [deleted user] (new)

Just starting Chapter 19 - this is a fun read! I had to chuckle when Dantes is thrown into the sea and he is as physically fit as when he went into prison 14 years previous. I have sat on the couch for a couple weeks over Christmas without excercise, and can barely move. Mind you I'm not 30...


message 9: by [deleted user] (new)

I'm not 30, either, but he was emaciated, and had, by his own admission, been inactive. Maybe digging the tunnel built his upper body strength.


message 10: by [deleted user] (last edited Jan 08, 2012 12:41AM) (new)

That Abbe Faria is pretty cool too. I can't get the image of McGyver out of my head. All those things he was able to invent: pens out of fish cartilage even!

ETA: and he just happens to know Noirtier and De Villefort! Very convenient!


message 11: by [deleted user] (new)

I loved the relationship that developed between Edmond and the Abbe.


message 12: by Lee, Mod Mama (new)

Lee (leekat) | 3959 comments Mod
I just finished reading the bit where he manages to fight his way out of the sack, weighed down by a cannonball after being thrown into an icy cold sea, no problem! And then swims for over an hour! With no food for the previous 24 hours! Gotta love it.


message 13: by [deleted user] (new)

It's the fire of revenge that is pushing him on!


message 14: by [deleted user] (new)

That, or not wanting to drown...


message 15: by Lee, Mod Mama (new)

Lee (leekat) | 3959 comments Mod
Does anyone think it a little bit odd that such a supposedly goodhearted soul is now completely consumed by revenge?


message 16: by [deleted user] (last edited Jan 10, 2012 06:15AM) (new)

I had that thought too, but on the other hand he just spent 14 years in prison, and Faria had recently (relatively speaking) told him about Noirtier and Villefort, and helped him work out about Danglars and Fernand... so his awakening is fairly new and very shocking.


message 17: by [deleted user] (new)

Shelley wrote: "Just starting Chapter 19 - this is a fun read! I had to chuckle when Dantes is thrown into the sea and he is as physically fit as when he went into prison 14 years previous. I have sat on the couch..."

I'm wondering Shelley about your chapters. Dantes gets thrown into the sea at the end of chapter 20 in the version I'm reading. So, his swim belongs in the next discussion thread: Chapters 21 - 25.


message 18: by [deleted user] (new)

I talked with Hayes about the differences in the versions we are reading, and I will be putting a short summary at the top of each thread so everyone can be at the same place in the discussion. This is my first read, and I really want to savor the adventure. Please check the first post in the thread before commenting, to keep spoilers in their proper thread. :)


message 19: by [deleted user] (new)

Lee wrote: "Does anyone think it a little bit odd that such a supposedly goodhearted soul is now completely consumed by revenge?"

Yes, I wondered at the transformation, but he had a long time in prison to think about it.


message 20: by [deleted user] (last edited Jan 10, 2012 09:59AM) (new)

Jeannette wrote: "Shelley wrote: "Just starting Chapter 19 - this is a fun read! I had to chuckle when Dantes is thrown into the sea and he is as physically fit as when he went into prison 14 years previous. I have ..."

Oh dear, my chapters are very different...Dante gets thrown to the sea in Chapter 16. I'm using a Kobo ereader - I really wish I had purchased the book itself, because I am really wanting to flip back and forth and it isn't as convenient with the ebook.

I'm so sorry Jeannette - I hate spoilers!


message 21: by [deleted user] (new)

No problem, Shelley! It wasn't a spoiler at that point, but it did help me realize that we are reading different volumes. Do you think my "summary titles" in the first post of each thread will help us know where we are? In this case, "Chapter 20 ends with Edmond being thrown into the sea."

I hope it will help us all to know where we are in the story. :)

btw: How many chapters does your version have?


message 22: by Tracey (new)

Tracey (stewartry) I've said this before and will probably say it again - I never, ever felt like a slow reader till I got involved in group reads on GR. *flees spoilers* :D


message 23: by [deleted user] (new)

Jeannette wrote: "No problem, Shelley! It wasn't a spoiler at that point, but it did help me realize that we are reading different volumes. Do you think my "summary titles" in the first post of each thread will he..."

The summary titles will definitely help. My version has 71 chapters.


message 24: by [deleted user] (new)

Tracey wrote: "I've said this before and will probably say it again - I never, ever felt like a slow reader till I got involved in group reads on GR. *flees spoilers* :D"

I say the same thing, Tracey. I used to be a fast reader, and then I joined Goodreads. Funny thing is that I read at the same rate, or even a little faster than before!


message 25: by [deleted user] (new)

What I have never been is a reader of more than one title at a time. This is the one thing goodreads had made me change. That, and causing me to spend an incredible amount of time online talking about books, instead of reading them.


message 26: by [deleted user] (new)

Shelley wrote: "The summary titles will definitely help. My version has 71 chapters. "

Good!

The unabridged version has 117 chapters. Now I'll definitely have to speed up, just to get those summary titles up. Maybe Hayes could help me with that, if you're ahead of me, that is! :D


message 27: by Tracey (new)

Tracey (stewartry) Jeannette wrote: "What I have never been is a reader of more than one title at a time. This is the one thing goodreads had made me change. That, and causing me to spend an incredible amount of time online talking ..."

I imagine I would move a lot faster with Monte Cristo if I wasn't also listening to Ready Player One, reading a book on my Kindle, and also reading a paperback ...

I need a clone.


message 28: by [deleted user] (new)

See, you are still reading as fast as you used to -- add ALL the pages together, and you're probably halfway through the Count! lol


message 29: by [deleted user] (new)

Jeannette wrote: "if you're ahead of me, that is!"

No, I'm back at chapter 24 or 25. I can skim ahead, but with teh ebook it's a bit more complicated. Maybe I can do it through the online reader... I'll send you a message later with what I discover.


message 30: by [deleted user] (new)

Thanks, Hayes! Kim is the only reader actually ahead of me, but once the abridged versions start clipping chapters, there's no telling where things are. Otherwise, I gotta start picking up the pace! lol


message 31: by [deleted user] (new)

I'll send you some more tomorrow. It's late and I'm going cross-eyed!


message 32: by [deleted user] (new)

Go to bed! :D I'll try to get in some sold reading tonight.


message 33: by [deleted user] (new)

Jeannette, I'm so glad you asked me about the chapters. I had no idea this was an abridged version! I've just purchased a paper copy, because I don't want to miss any of the storyline.


message 34: by [deleted user] (new)

I explained the workaround that Hayes and I came up with in this thread:

msg 24: http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/7...

It's a big book, and I wonder what was left out, or condensed for the abridged version? That's something I'll research later, and you can mention as you re-read the chapters you've already covered.


message 35: by Kim (new)

Kim (kimmr) | 931 comments My version definitely has 117 chapters. I'm listening to as much as I can every day, but listening is considerably slower than reading, even though it offers the advantage of multi-tasking. I'm only ahead because I started before 1 January.

I've had a problem twice in the past with downloading books from sites Project Gutenberg, when I downloaded an un-notified abridged version. In each case I only knew that it was abridged because I was listening to the audiobook in French while following the text in English and realised that there were chunks of text missing.


message 36: by Tracey (new)

Tracey (stewartry) So ... what was it that the Abbé suffered from? It's genetic; it causes convulsions, foaming at the mouth, and a death-like state, and also paralysis, but not like a stroke in that it affected his right arm and left leg; it seems not to have significantly weakened him with the first attack, but did severe damage the second time and brought death the third (as it had to his father and grandfather before him)... A very quick Goodsearch (no time for more - I have to make a belated birthday cake) didn't turn anything up.


message 37: by Kim (new)

Kim (kimmr) | 931 comments I was assuming a stroke, the effects of which had been mis-described by Dumas. But it would be interesting to know if there is a real condition which includes those symptoms.


message 38: by [deleted user] (new)

Here is a medical article which sheds some light on your question:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/artic...

To prevent you from reading any spoilers, here is an excerpt from the article:


Fifteen months after their first acquaintance, Faria suddenly becomes unwell. Dantès is warned by Faria what to expect and what he must do with some medicine that Faria has kept for the purpose:

‘This is what will happen. I shall fall into a cataleptic fit. I may perhaps remain motionless and not make a sound. But I might also froth at the mouth, stiffen and cry out.... When you see me motionless, cold and as it were, dead—and only at that moment you understand—force my teeth apart with the knife and poor eight to ten drops of the liquid into my mouth. In that case, I may revive.’ (p. 148)

Faria regains consciousness but has a right hemiplegia, describing himself as being ‘half a corpse’. This is Faria's second attack, the first having been more than ten years previously:

‘Last time the fit lasted half an hour, and after it I felt hungry and got up myself. Today, I cannot move my right leg or my right arm. My head is muddled, which proves there is some effusion on the brain. The third time, I shall remain entirely paralysed or shall die at once.... It is a hereditary illness. My father died on the third attack and so did my grandfather. The doctor predicted the same fate for me.’ (p. 150)

Faria dies as predicted after the third cerebrovascular event even though Dantès gave the remainder of the medicine as instructed.
‘The medicine produced an immediate effect, galvanizing the old man with a violent shudder through all his limbs. His eyes reopened with a terrifying expression, he let out a sigh that was closer to a shout, then the whole trembling body relapsed gradually into immobility’ (p. 166).

Obviously we can only speculate as to Abbé Faria's condition, which although familial presents with epilepsy, renders the patient hemiplegic after the second episode and kills on the third. From a 21st-century perspective it does not make sense, and this is of course a work of fiction. We can speculate that ‘some effusion on the brain’ represents subarachnoid or intracerebral haemorrhage, possibly autosomal dominantly inherited. Dumas' description of Faria does not support (or anticipate) a diagnosis of Osler-Rendu-Weber syndrome or Sturge-Weber syndrome. We can also speculate that the medicine given to him by Dantès somehow acted on intracranial or blood pressure.

For answers we should look at medical concepts of apoplexy at the time Dumas was writing, bearing in mind that the postmortem differences between haemorrhage and infarction were not defined until the middle of the nineteenth century. In 1822 Serres divided apoplexies into two groups—those with and those without paralysis2—but Dumas' understanding is more likely to have been influenced by Abercrombie's Pathological and Practical Researches on Diseases of the Brain and the Spinal Cord3 first published in 1828. In this work, seen as a milestone in the development of neuropathology,4 Abercrombie divides apoplexy into three classes:

‘First those which are immediately... apoplectic:
secondly that which begin with a sudden attack of headache and pass gradually into apoplexy:
thirdly those which are distinguished by palsy and loss of speech without coma’. He further subdivides primary apoplexy into apoplexy with extravasation of blood, apoplexy with serous effusion and apoplexy without any morbid appearance in the brain. This last category Abercrombie counts as simple apoplexy.

According to this classification Faria succumbed to primary apoplexy with serous effusion.

The rest of the article addresses another case of apoplexy, but it is much later in the book. After you reach that section, you might want to read the entire article. A lot of medical terminology to get through!


message 39: by [deleted user] (new)

I skimmed down to the bottom and there are spoilers there. Here are the concluding paragraphs; they are very interesting.


Dumas clearly had a broad understanding of cerebrovascular disease but where did he obtain this knowledge? He was not a medical student turned writer, or even formally educated. However, in 1827 he became first a patient and then a friend of Dr Thibaut who instructed him in anatomy, physiology, physics and chemistry. Dumas sometimes accompanied Thibaut as he made morning visits to the Hôpital de Charité. In his memoirs Dumas acknowledged his debt to Thibaut: ‘From these visits, I learnt a little about medicine and surgery which has often been useful in my novel writing.’13 We can speculate that, as with medical students, experience of walking the wards had a profound influence on him, though it is noteworthy that he had an ‘insurmountable repugnance for operations and dead bodies’.14
Dumas' descriptions of cerebrovascular disease are not confined to The Count of Monte Cristo. Rønnov-Jessen has recognized vertebrobasilar insufficiency in the symptoms of the musketeer Porthos immediately before his death.15 Details can be found in his paper but again there is a family history (on the father's side) and three previous episodes. Perhaps Dumas encountered these conditions at the Charité; however, the inspiration may have been more personal. By the time he wrote The Count of Monte Cristo his mother had died of cerebrovascular disease, having suffered a stroke in 1829, leaving her left side paralysed, and a fatal recurrence in 1836.16 We can speculate that Dumas subconsciously expressed fear of a similar fate and hoped by his writing to avoid it. The family history ran true, and he in turn developed cerebrovascular disease and died of a stroke in Dieppe on 5 December 1870.17


Susanna - Censored by GoodReads (susannag) | 529 comments Tendencies to strokes can run in families; it runs in mine. (As I found out in greater detail after I had one.)


message 41: by [deleted user] (last edited Jan 15, 2012 01:00PM) (new)

In mine too, Susanna. My great-grandfather, grandfather, mother and uncle all died very young.

Thanks for that info, Jeannette. Will read the entire article later.


Susanna - Censored by GoodReads (susannag) | 529 comments Yep; in my case, both grandfathers and a great-aunt. That I know of. (The great-aunt is still kicking and turns 92 this year, though!)


message 43: by Tracey (last edited Jan 17, 2012 05:46AM) (new)

Tracey (stewartry) Thank you for all the research, Jeannette! I never realized there was a genetic factor to stroke.

I am just poking along here… Dantes finally was flung into the sea.

Something that struck me in chapter 20 (I think it was 20) as Dantes sat next to the Abbe's body was that he fully expected that, were he to commit suicide (even "suicide by cop"), he would still go where the Abbe was and find him. I'm fuzzy on religion in France at this time – I know the Republic did its best to erase it (as witness the fascinating calendar they tried to implement) – but Dantes was aware that committing suicide was something rather frowned upon by God. I wonder if he believed that, having gotten himself into the afterlife, he would be able to talk his way through whatever difficulties arose to find his friend?


message 44: by [deleted user] (new)

Thanks, Tracey. It was really a lucky first hit on a google search.

More fun historical facts I didn't know! It must have been a confusing time, having something as fundamental as the calendar so dramatically changed.

I am only guessing that Edmond's concept of God and the afterlife were profoundly changed by his period in prison, and influenced by the knowledge he gained from Abbe Faria. He was less superstitious, and possibly more hopeful that God would be merciful to him after he died.


message 45: by [deleted user] (new)

I'd forgotten about that complicated calendar system, Tracey. (Mussolini tried to do something similar when the Fascists came to power... with the same results.)


message 46: by Tracey (new)

Tracey (stewartry) It's completely mad. They seemed to try to be so very logical, and it wound up just sounding like a game of Fizzbin.


Susanna - Censored by GoodReads (susannag) | 529 comments Yeah, that calendar reform is why political scientists and historians talk of revolutions having a "Thermidorian phase."


message 48: by [deleted user] (new)

Tracey wrote: "It's completely mad. They seemed to try to be so very logical, and it wound up just sounding like a game of Fizzbin."

A-Hah! A trekkie! That's one of our favorite episodes.


message 49: by Tracey (new)

Tracey (stewartry) Hayes wrote: "A-Hah! A trekkie! That's one of our favorite episodes."

Guilty. I'm a dyed-in-the-wool geek.


Susanna - Censored by GoodReads (susannag) | 529 comments Golly. I thought I'd seen most TOS episodes, but I don't remember that one!


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