Brain Pain discussion
This topic is about
The Waves
The Waves - Spine 2012
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Discussion - Week One - The Waves - Section 1 & 2
Catherine wrote: "Carly wrote: "I'm hanging in here with this book, but I gotta be honest - I don't like it much."Carly, I hope you hang in. The book is a tough read... his book I've had to read in bits and pieces..."
Same here. As Lily said, it's the prose-poetry thing. I find I need to read it as poetry, very slowly and thoughtfully, taking in every individual word instead of just every sentence or paragraph. It's not an effort I can sustain for more than a few pages. I'm definitely not one of those people who can sit and read poetry for hours at a time.
Jim wrote: "This might be a good time to ask a question that's been on my mind for many weeks:Woolf chose to write in a very different narrative form. Now that we are well on our way into the book, are you able to basically follow the narrative? ..."
Jim -- my first, from the gut, response was a blunt, "NO!" I even could feel my breath emerge from the visceral region as I said it. :D
On second thought, I realize I can follow set pieces, maybe even a chapter. But I still don't feel as if I am following some sort of a novel plot line. Nor am I able to do a very satisfactory job of reconciling the opening passages about the sea and waves with the following prose-poetry. (Comments here have helped.)
Mod
It must be good literature if it hits you in the gut!
I'll be posing the same question in week 4 when we finish the book. In fact, I'll be asking the same question about each of the books that features some sort of formal experimentation, including Infinite Jest.
Erika wrote: "Lily, I think confidence and doubt (the formation of identity?) really play into sections 3 & 4. Should we talk about it on that thread? I'd love to hear your thoughts on some of the quotes that come to mind!..."Erika -- call a quotation to my attention there and I'll try to respond.
Jim wrote: "I'll be posing the same question in week 4 ..."And your response to your own question, Jim, at this point in the reading? (Either as you remember it from your first read or as you perceive it now.)
I'm able to follow whats being substituted for a narrative, but it's very interesting to read the comments here where people are getting thoughts and observations into the characters I'm simply not seeing. I think my training is probably to blame here, I simply don't fill in those blanks in the information that I'm sure Woolf intends us to fill in, so I'm getting a more limited vision of these people than the group does, and certainly more limited than I suspect Woolf intends. At this point, I feel as though I read a small section of poetry, followed by some vague personal monologues that I can read so little into, I have trouble keeping the names associated with the narratives.
Mod
I'm able to follow the narrative because my own mind works very much like the characters' minds. I think 25 hours a day, so I'm sort of among my people, if that makes sense. I'm very visually oriented, so as I read Woolf's words, I'm watching a full color CinemaScope movie of the story...
Jim wrote: "This might be a good time to ask a question that's been on my mind for many weeks:Woolf chose to write in a very different narrative form. Now that we are well on our way into the book, are you able to basically follow the narrative? "
I would say yes I'm able to basically follow the narrative, but I'm having to do a lot of re-reading and I feel like I really, really have to slow down my reading. I absolutely can't read it when I'm tired or it just sort of becomes part of a dream. I'm also taking notes and marking up the book like crazy, which I haven't done to a book in years. (And I do nerdy things like re-read and write down everything about Percival so far, say.)
I'm loving it though, and, as others have said, I can see myself rereading this more than once in years to come
Whitney wrote: "Erika wrote: "I sort of roughly associate Jinny with air, Susan with earth, and Rhoda with water. ..."Erika, can you say where this impression came from? In section 4 (spoiler alert?) Bernard des..."
Whitney, I made some notes, so when I have a little more time this evening, I'll expand on my impressions a little. But I can see that flame is perhaps more suited to Jinny. She is very often associated with the colors red, gold, and yellow. I missed Bernard's descriptions in section four. I'll go back and look for them.
Jim wrote: "...I think 25 hours a day, so I'm sort of among my people, if that makes sense...."Okay, Jim -- does that imply that everyone who thinks 25 hours a day, thinks like these people?
Jim wrote: "Woolf chose to write in a very different narrative form. Now that we are well on our way into the book, are you able to basically follow the narrative?..."Yes, I've been able to basically follow the narrative. I have actually really enjoyed her narrative style and find the soliloquies very interesting. It's probably the nerdy psychology student in me, but I love getting the insights into the characters' thought processes and perspectives.
Lily wrote: "Nor am I able to do a very satisfactory job of reconciling the opening passages about the sea and waves with the following prose-poetry. (Comments here have helped.)..."
This is the area in which I feel I've struggled. But, like Lily said, the comments here have been helpful in making the connection between the opening passages and the subsequent soliloquies. I always find myself unintentionally skimming over sections in books where descriptions of nature or external surroundings are prevalent. It's a habit I've been trying to break, but I have a hard time concentrating during these types of passages. I'm a very introspective person, so things of that nature better pique my interest; therefore, in this work, I tend not to get as much from the opening paragraphs about the waves and such.
Ashley wrote: "This is the area in which I feel I've struggled. But, like Lily said, the comments here have been helpful in making the connection between the opening passages and the subsequent soliloquies...."I think ‘The Waves’ is a good example of Nabokov’s assertion that great books can’t be read, but can only be reread. I’ve also found the comments here helpful, but I’m still not expecting to get too much out of the interludes the first time though. I think they’ll be easier to contend with on a second reading, when I have a better grasp of the overall narative.
Whitney wrote: "Ashley wrote: "This is the area in which I feel I've struggled. But, like Lily said, the comments here have been helpful in making the connection between the opening passages and the subsequent sol..."I think I may have a better understanding once I've gotten all the way through the book. Trying to understand the full connection of the interludes and the soliloquies, for me, will not be possible until I've read the entire book and experienced the entire narrative.
Whitney wrote: "I think ‘The Waves’ is a good example of Nabokov’s assertion that great books can’t be read, but can only be reread..."Whitney -- I laughed. Thanks for reminding us! So very Nabokov!
Now, why didn't I think to read it like poetry earlier? I think I'll enjoy it more that way. Thank you!
I agree, Whitney and Catherine, that getting through the entire narrative will help with understanding the interludes. This is definitely a book I plan to reread, so I have a feeling I'll better make the connections upon my second reading too. I love books that warrant a rereading--guess I'll be adding this to my ever-growing list....
Laura wrote: "Now, why didn't I think to read it like poetry earlier? I think I'll enjoy it more that way. Thank you!"Laura, okay. Teaching time, please. How do you distinguish or characterize "read like poetry"?
I think it's cool to associate earth, wind, fire and water to these characters. Yet who's "the fifth element", the heart, among the eight people?
Edward wrote: "I think it's cool to associate earth, wind, fire and water to these characters. Yet who's "the fifth element", the heart, among the eight people?"Who are you considering to be the eighth person?
I noticed another relationship between the Interludes and the Soliloquies that, for lack of a better world, I'll call definition, as in physical definition. Section one seems be related to light. From the Interlude, "The light struck upon the garden making one leaf transparent then the other...the sun sharpened the wall of the house...and made a blue fingerprint of shadow under the leaf..." Throughout the soliloquies we see "loop of light," "white light," a shadow that falls on the path, "islands of light swimming on the grass," "burning lights from the window panes," "blue-finger shaped shadows of leaves." Louis is hiding in the bushes, essentially in the shadows. Jenny says of Louis after the kiss, "I am thrown over you like a net of light." Susan retreats to the beech forest and Bernard says, "She is making for the beech woods out of the light. She spreads her arms as she comes to them and takes to the shade like a swimmer." The beech woods is a place where light pants in and out. Etc.
Section two seems to be concerned with weight. The Interlude concludes with, "Meanwhile the concussion of the waves breaking fell with muffled thuds, like logs falling, on the shore." Then in the soliloquies "London heaves and surges," the headmaster uses "tremendous and sonorous words" and "lurches heavily from side to side," Louis rejoices in the bulk and authority of the Bible read by the headmaster, Neville says the headmasters words fall on his head like paving stones "while the gilt cross heaves on his waistcoat." Bernard quotes, "The lake of my mind, unbroken by oars, heaves placidly and sinks into an oily somnolence." Louis says of Percival, "He is heavy." And Neville describes "Percival lying heavy among us." Etc.
Erika wrote: "Whitney wrote: "Erika wrote: "I sort of roughly associate Jinny with air, Susan with earth, and Rhoda with water. ..."Erika, can you say where this impression came from? In section 4 (spoiler ale..."
Whitney, I'm glad you challenged me to substantiate my impressions. I went back with an eye toward finding these elements within the soliloquies. For what it's worth, this is what I found:
You are absolutely right about Jinny. There is no question at all that she is associated with flames. Overwhelmingly so. I think I was seeing the words ripple, flutter, flow, waver, and billow when I was reading about her and missing (doh!) the words fiery, flicker, firelight, flash, heat, blazed, "tongues of fire," kindles, burns.
My feelings about Rhoda and water can be substantiated, but only in a very minor way. Originally, I was thinking about her basin with the petals-- a recurring image connected with Rhoda. There are words like sink and drown used in connection with her. She says in part one, "Let me pull myself out of these waters. But they heap themselves on me, they sweep me between their great shoulders; I am turned; I am tumbled; I am stretched among these long lights, these long waves, these endless paths with people pursuing, pursuing." There is also the bit about the water lilies, and the passage when she says, "a deep stream presses on some obstacle..."(P57, Harcourt edition). There is the puddle and the pool where the swallow dips it wing. Finally, there is Bernard's characterization of Rhoda as the nymph of the fountain always wet. Ultimately, though, water imagery is used in association with other characters as well as Rhoda, and there are other recurring images/themes that are important to Rhoda (the tiger, facelessness). She is very complicated.
Now Susan. I do still associate Susan with the earth. Three times she throws herself to the ground which seems to bring her comfort in her despair. In part one she runs to the woods and flings herself on the beech roots, and later she says she will throw herself down on the bank of the river, then she says, "Let me fling myself on this flat ground." She also says early on that she has "eyes that look close to the ground," and that she will make images of all the things she hates and "bury them in the ground." Four or five different times she talks of the fields or the wet fields. Everything about her and her life is solid and terrestrial. The description of her day on the farm on pp 99-100 is a good example.
It's interesting that Bernard associates her with lumps of crystal--more specifically-"Susan with her eyes like lumps of crystal." I can't quite figure that out, except that Susan repeatedly refers to the thing in her that started as yellow warmth in her side and turned hard. Now she has something hard in her.
As a side note, I wonder if we can associate the petals (she pretends they are little boats) in Rhoda's basin with the characters in the book?
Erika wrote: "As a side note, I wonder if we can associate the petals (she pretends they are little boats) in Rhoda's basin with the characters in the book?"Adrift together on the sea of life?
Lily wrote: "Erika wrote: "As a side note, I wonder if we can associate the petals (she pretends they are little boats) in Rhoda's basin with the characters in the book?"Adrift together on the sea of life?"
..with some collisions.
Edward wrote: Am I nuts or do the ladies ahve serious self-esteem issues?They all seem to have self-esteem issues. In addition to Jim's comments on the girls, we see that Louis is ashamed of his Australian background, Bernard can't do anything without an audience, and Neville spends his time swooning over Percival, who doesn't notice him.
Carly wrote: "I'm hanging in here with this book, but I gotta be honest - I don't like it much."I agree that this is best read slowly, paying attention to every word. I find that listening to the audio recording helps me do that better - and it's really helped me to enjoy it too. Still, I find my mind wandering off after about a half hour.
I also had trouble getting the relationship between the sun interludes and the rest of the narrative the first go-round. But now that I'm going through it a second time, they make much more sense. And the conversation we're having here is a great help as well!
I'm quickly going to pop in a few observations in general, The easiest part of this novel is for me, the sheer sensuousness and the 'rounded' (Woolf seems to attend to all the senses except taste) sensory experience; she does seem to transcend the usual bounds of language, and at the very least; of narrative; in fact, there's no "narrative" in the traditional sense of the word. I'm finding this aspect of it a wonderful experience.
To me the hardest part at first is to try and keep track of the personalities as Woolf gradually builds them up. When I started off, I wrote down each of the six protagonists' names and put associations next to them, but that can become an arduous task as the novel progresses and the trains of thought swell.
I'm still trying to get a hold of Neville and Rhoda.
Earlier in this thread, the girls were compared/described thus:...ok, and now once again, I'm feeling a bit overwhelmed. Now I see why this piece of literature needs to be re-read and re-reread. It warrants re-reading, reflecting on, and then reading yet again..
Maybe I should just soldier on without trying to get to grips with too many specifics, and then come back and start again - what a pity this is my first reading. :(
Mod
The easiest part of this novel is for me, the she..."
I'm glad you're enjoying the book. With this type of writing, it's difficult to "get it" the first time through. Woolf packed a lot of information into a short book and I'm sure that each time you revisit it, you will find something new to enjoy.
One of the reasons I selected this book to be our first read is because it will prepare us for the challenge of Ulysses. Joyce also packs a lot of information into every page (and maybe more so) and no one is going to get all of it the first time through. Both of these books and authors are perennials to be enjoyed more than once in the reader's lifetime.
Traveller wrote: "Earlier in this thread, the girls were compared/described thus:...ok, and now once again, I'm feeling a bit overwhelmed. Now I see why this piece of literature needs to be re-read and re-reread. It warrants re-reading, reflecting on, and then reading yet again..."My experience reading this book has been like no other book I've ever read. I feel like there's so much in each chapter, each character, there's no way I can absorb it all.
I agree with you that Rhoda is very complicated. She is, for me, the most difficult character to get a handle on.
Thanks Jim. (and Erika) Yes, I have attempted Ulysses before, so I have an idea of the enormity of it.Not a project to embark upon lightly..
Anyway, back to this first section: I can't quite figure out yet where the children start off. It seems to be only the 6 of them, as far as pupils are concerned, so it's not quite a boarding school, (anyway boarding schools were single-sex back then) and neither are they orphans. Yet it is a house in which they eat and sleep and receive lessons from 1 or 2 teachers, and there are servants around as well.
Their parents are not around, and like you all said, Louis is from Brisbane.. so... I'm a bit puzzled.
Erika wrote: Section one seems be related to light... Section two seems to be concerned with weight..."Interesting observation, Erika! I didn't notice this before.
Erika wrote: Susan repeatedly refers to the thing in her that started as yellow warmth in her side and turned hard.Yellow is used to describe fire in the case of Jinny. Perhaps Susan started out a shining flame, but the separation from her home and family hardened her into a crystal, which is formed by intense pressure and heat under the earth.
Nancy wrote: "Perhaps Susan started out a shining flame, but the separation from her home and family hardened her into a crystal, which is formed by intense pressure and heat under the earth..."Oooh, I like that! I think you're onto something. Nice observation :)
I don't know a lot about English educational history, but I'm wondering, give Woolf's background and lifestyle, whether it might be some sort of experimental school, and thus not what we would expect.Traveller wrote: <Traveller wrote: "hanks Jim. (and Erika) Yes, I have attempted Ulysses before, so I have an idea of the enormity of it.
Not a project to embark upon lightly..
Anyway, back to this first section: I can't quite f..."
Laurele wrote: "I don't know a lot about English educational history, but I'm wondering, give Woolf's background and lifestyle, whether it might be some sort of experimental school, and thus not what we would expe..."I hadn't thought of that, but you could be on to something. Thank you, it makes sense.
Is it my imagination or did Virginia write herself into this story? Is that her in "Elvdon" by the long window 'writing?'
To Lily: I'm not sure anymore about an "eighth" person but I think any of the lesser characters could fit the bill, as Percival I consider the 7th. I think it's the cute lady teacher Jinny has a lesbian crush on. Agree/disagree?
Edward wrote: "To Lily: I'm not sure anymore about an "eighth" person but I think any of the lesser characters could fit the bill, as Percival I consider the 7th. I think it's the cute lady teacher Jinny has a le..."Don't have an opinion, but was interested in yours. Thanks! (I guess I pretty much see six narrators plus Percival.)
Laurele wrote: "I don't know a lot about English educational history, but I'm wondering, give Woolf's background and lifestyle, whether it might be some sort of experimental school, and thus not what we would expe..."That's an interesting idea, Laurele. I haven't read the rest of the book yet, but at the point where the boys and girls are separate because the boys are at school, the girls are still together for a time, so I've been wondering if perhaps the children's parents might be close friends, and sort of "pooling" the childcare options.
The British have traditionally not been too fond of 'hands-on" parenting. There's always been nurses and nannies and boarding schools and the like. :P
Linda wrote: "Is it my imagination or did Virginia write herself into this story? Is that her in "Elvdon" by the long window 'writing?'"Oh, that's a cool idea! Hadn't even occurred to me.
Well, I went back into these first two sections, went to the sparks notes thing and read through this thread.I feel I do have a better feel for the story now.
On reading the parallels to Genesis, I wanted to express my impression when I read the descriptions of the waves ... Twelfth Night!
It reminds me of the way that play opens up with the protags finding themselves coming up out of water/mist/air ... whatever - like they've been thrown up by a mother who intends to let her children go it alone from there.
Just my thoughts.
I'm going on to Section 3 now.
Mod
I feel I do have a better feel for the story now.
On reading the parallels to Gen..."
Part one does have that Genesis kind of feeling - "In the beginning..."
If the scientists are correct, we all come from the sea.
Just to let you know I just finished The Waves this past weekend and I was so moved. The narrative style is unique so I would like to read her other stuff. My favorite character seems to be Bernard, who even as he gets old and grey, seems to hold on to the good in life to the very end. Comments?
Mod
Bernard seems to be the most life-positive member of the group. He remains aware that his own life isn't exactly successful, but he does his best to accept his lot.
On Monday, we'll begin our final discussion of the book as a whole, including sections 8 & 9. Be sure to join in next week and share your thoughts about what makes The Waves a moving experience for you.
Jim wrote: "C. Part one does have that Genesis kind of feeling - "In the beginning..." "Hah ha, but even without putting my feminist hat on, I couldn't help noticing that the light in the scene is created by a woman holding a lamp... :P
Mod
I am curious if any of you who commented here but did not continue, did so because you chose not to finish the book. And further, if you did not finish the book, if your reasons were because of the book itself.
I opened a Week Five discussion thread today where we will be discussing the book as a whole. Part of that discussion is, given the book's experimental narrative form, does the book succeed as a novel?
If you did discontinue reading The Waves, please consider sharing your ideas in the Week Five thread about how the book itself may have been off-putting or otherwise disappointing for you.
Thank you!
I found I did not have the stamina to continue. Even though I've read the book twice before-it may just be my age or that I'm still getting in shape (as I posted about my reading so far of Ulysses) that is interfering with the intense focus I feel I need to read this book.And the beautiful lyricism of the early pages, belonging, I guess, to childhood, was missing from the later sections.
Mod
Thanks Ellie!
If you have time later this week, please visit the Week Five discussion and weigh-in on your experience of the book.
Brain Pain
Books mentioned in this topic
The Well of Loneliness (other topics)Orlando (other topics)
The Waves (other topics)
Orlando (other topics)
Definitely some brain pain involved, but that's the whole premise, right? As Lily mentioned, The Waves will be a part of my re-read list.
This might be a good time to ask a question that's been on my mind for many weeks:
Woolf chose to write in a very different narrative form. Now that we are well on our way into the book, are you able to basically follow the narrative?