The Readers Review: Literature from 1714 to 1910 discussion
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The Mill on the Floss
George Eliot Collection
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Mill on the Floss, The: Week 1 - Book First
I really love it so far - I'm through Chapter 7, just starting Chapter 8.Especially Maggie - she's got gumption!
I think that 'Outside Dorlcote Mill' is one of the most beautiful introductions to a novel in English literature.Later, the description of Maggie's temperament and her unruly hair seems to fit descriptions of Mary Ann Evans herself when young.
I'm enjoying it greatly. Currently reading chapter 12.I find Maggie quite peculiar yet endearing.
I'm also really enjoying this book so far. I don't know why I haven't read it before. It's possibly just that I overdosed on Victorian writers when I was at university and couldn't face them for a long time. Sadly, I recently read a Mill on the Floss spoiler which lurked in another novel I'm reading. What are the chances of that happening? Oh well, while I would have preferred not to have seen it, it will not ruin my enjoyment of the group read.
Mod
I agree Madge. What I would call breathtakingly beautiful. It made me say damn this is going to be good.I made note of the Shetland pony reference which is very significant to Maggie.
I googled Shetland pony behavior. They were described as aggressive, bratty, and feisty. Hmmm do we see these in Maggie?
Rebecca wrote: "...I googled Shetland pony behavior. They were described as aggressive, bratty, and feisty. Hmmm do we see these in Maggie?"Fascinating linkage!
Great observation Rebecca - I hadn't noticed that but did note the description of the cart horses: 'The strong, submissive, meek-eyed beasts...See how they stretch their shoulders up the slope toward he bridge, with all the more energy because they are so near home...Look at their grand shaggy feet that seem to grasp the firm earth, at the patient strength of their necks, bowed under the heavy collar, at the mighty muscles of their struggling haunches!' Is this an allusion to Tom I now wonder?I was struck by the clear marks of class distinction Mr Tulliver saw between 'scholars' and himself when he observed, for instance, 'Riley looks at Lawyer Wakem i' the face as hard as one cat looks another. He's none frightened at him.
I also loved the exchanges between Mr & Mrs Tulliver which showed her to be entirely concerned with domesticated issues and quite unable to think in the abstract: '..when did I iver make objections to a man because he's got a mole on his face?.......' 'No, no, Bessy, I didn't mean justly the mole, I meant it to stand for summat else, but niver mind - its puzzling work talking is.' !!
There are also numerous references to how little women were regarded if they had brains but not beauty. What a trial that must have been to intelligent women like George Eliot who even hd to change her name to become accepted in a 'brainy' profession.
(BTW I have put some geographical and other background info on the Background & Resources thread.)
Continuing on your thought Madge of class distinction. Is that why the the university over the academy? Is Eliot making a point here or was this a change in instituitions during the Victorian times? I was also intrested in the reference of women. I find I look forward to see Mrs Tullivers comments.
I was shocked when I read about Maggies doll andnnail driving. Wow talk about a strong visusal we usually dont find in Victorian Lit.
I too am enjoying the read so far. I'm not that far along yet as I am finishing a book for another book club, but I am pleasantly surprised that I am liking this book. My only experience with George Eliot was in 9th grade and I think my age and the difficulty of getting 9th graders to have a literary discussion gave me a bad taste for the author. I am hoping the rest of the book holds my attention like these first few chapters.I found it interesting that Mr. Tulliver allowed Maggie free reign of his library that she was able to discuss to some degree of knowledge about the abstract concepts of the devil and evil.
Madge mentioned the contrast between Mr. and Mrs. Tulliver--I think there is also a marked difference between Mrs. Tulliver and Maggie in how they view abstract ideas.
Yes I think it is a case of Maggie taking after her father and Tom after his mother when it comes to intelligence and abstract ideas. Some of the ideas about the devil will have come from the religious reading and sermons of the time and as we know, George Eliot struggled with religion and may have been expressing some of her own views here. In the 19~C England the word 'academy' was used for specialised tertiary schooling such as for music and soldiering, rather as continentals then used 'gymnasium'. Universities were considered better than academies because they pursued a broader 'universal' education. Also and perhaps more significantly, because Oxford and Cambridge were dominated by the Church of England, Dissenters set up their own academies, of which London University was one of the first. Given her own CofE background, Eliot may be commenting adversely upon these 'dissenting academies'.
Here is quite a good lnk about Victorian schooling:-
http://www.nettlesworth.durham.sch.uk...
I must confess to having a 'voodoo' doll in my childhood into which I stuck pins if I was angry with someone!!! Perhaps children of my time got the idea from tales of Maggie's actions, because it was before I read the book.
I have just finisher reading Book I: Boy and Girl and I liked it a lot, hope next one is going to be just as good.
I loved the voodoo doll scene. It did come as rather surprising and unexpected but at the same time I found it to be quite hilarious, and interesting that it did occur shortly after the discussion about witches, and the devil. There is something almost witchlike about Maggie in how impulsive she is and how much more primal she is. She seems to act predominately upon her emotions/instincts without giving forethought or considering possible consequences. As shown in how she is always forgetting things. She never really thinks ahead but always lives in the moment it seems. It is curious that while on the one hand Mr. Tulliver seems to have rather conventional views about women, and his belief that there is no good in women being educated or displaying any intelligence, and choose his own wife for her lack of intellect, yet at the same time gives his daughter free reign. Though he believes her cleverness will only cause her mischief and do her know good, he does not really do anything to check it. He chides her at times for her "naughtiness" but at the same time it seems to be the source of his affection for her.
Perhaps because of the fact that she is a girl, in spite of his affection for her, he feels that what becomes of her future really is inconsequential and so he does not bother attempting to discipline her and even if he feels it will be to her own ill simply lets her carry on as she will.
Or is it because of his affection for her that clouds his better judgement, and prevents him from correcting her even though he believes it is only going to lead her to no good
I think that Mr Tulliver is concerned about Maggie's future, but he considers that her future will depend on how she is treated by Tom, rather than on what he does. That really comes out in Chapter VIII, where Mr Tulliver's determination to be kind to his own sister (to his financial disadvantage) comes from a superstitious fear that if he fails to do so, that will have an impact on how Tom will treat Maggie in similar circumstances.
So does Mr. Tulliver propose that Tom will simply take care of his sister all his life opposed to attempting to find her a marriage match? While I know Maggie has the idea she will live as Tom's housekeeper, that does not seem like a very realistic idea, as well however well meaning Tom is to his sister, supposing he himself gets married and has children of his own that would put Maggie's future in jeopardy if that is what she is solely dependent upon.
MadgeUK wrote: "I think that 'Outside Dorlcote Mill' is one of the most beautiful introductions to a novel in English literature.Later, the description of Maggie's temperament and her unruly hair seems to fit de..."
It is very beautiful. When I read it, I thought about how nice it would be if we could get some of these types of descriptions in modern literary works, but it is rare to get anything close. Many people are so used to getting descriptions in 120 characters that they don't have to patience to read something like the beginning to The Mill on the Floss.
I also liked the start of Chapter 12: the history of St. Ogg's. I liked the imagery of the "Roman legions," the "Saxon hero-king," and the Dane.
I'm digressing, but I would love to take a course in British history. I've read a couple of books, but since I didn't grow up knowing British history, it's hard to keep all the Kings/wars/etc. straight. I somewhat know the 1800s and 1900s, but ask me pre-19th century, and I either won't know or will be completely confused (except for probably Elizabeth I).
Silver wrote: "So does Mr. Tulliver propose that Tom will simply take care of his sister all his life opposed to attempting to find her a marriage match? While I know Maggie has the idea she will live as Tom's ho..."I think it would depend on the woman's situation. Since women really didn't have many work options, and if their father died, they had to depend on the kindness of brothers and other male relatives. The problems came when they didn't have any kind brothers or male relatives.
That's why Mr. Tulliver hopes that Tom will be kind to Maggie.
Obviously, she could get married, but if her husband died, she would be in the same situation.
Reading all the comments about Maggie being peculiar. I wasn't struck that she is unusally odd. Anyone that is around kids a lot knows that they are all a bit odd. ;) (Same with adults, but we hide it better). She actually reminds me of a number of portrayals of young girls, from Scout in To Kill a Mockingbird to Ramona (the Pest.) :-)
Lynnm wrote: "Silver wrote: "So does Mr. Tulliver propose that Tom will simply take care of his sister all his life opposed to attempting to find her a marriage match? While I know Maggie has the idea she will l..."While I can understand her father wanting to encourage Tom to be generous to his sister and wanting to beleive he will look after her well in the event of his death, it seems a bit of an insecure future for her to rely upon that primarily.
And unless Maggie does find a particuarly liberal minded husband if she is left to carry on in her current state and simply allowed her wild ways without any discipline it seems it would make her a bit unmarriageable. While the modern mind might frown upon that mode of thinking, in considering the time period it seems it would be a bit irresponsible of a father not to do what he could to help ensure his daughter is able to make a suitable marriage match which seems a bit more of a secure means of financial support than the relying purely on familial generosity.
It just seems curious to me that while he seems to have rather conventional views about the education of women he does not acutally impose these views upon his own daughter, but just looks the other way. It would be different if he himself had a more liberal approach and believed in the value of women being educated, but he sees it as something that will lead to no good.
So he is not preparing his daughter for the difficulty she may have in life if she chooses an unconventional route, but nor does it seem is he really trying to ensure that she has a more conventionally secure future.
It is like he is neither encouraging nor discouraging her, but just staying out of it all together and hoping that Tom will simply take responsibility for her.
Lynnm wrote: "I'm digressing, but I would love to take a course in British history. I've read a couple of books, but since I didn't grow up knowing British history, it's hard to keep all the Kings/wars/etc. straight. I somewhat know the 1800s and 1900s, but ask me pre-19th century, and I either won't know or will be completely confused (except for probably Elizabeth I)...."Lynn, I lived overseas from age 9 to age 13 and when I returned to the Australian education system, my mother was worried that I had missed out on learning English history. Over the long summer holidays before I went back to school she made me read a book on the kings and queens of England and memorise their names and the dates of their reigns. This was completely useless to me when I started school, because kids were taught Australian history, not the history she had been taught when she was at school in the 1930s and 1940s. However, I remembered those kings and queens for a very long time and I still get a giggle from reading 1066 and All That: A Memorable History of England.
Silver wrote: "Lynnm wrote: "Silver wrote: "So does Mr. Tulliver propose that Tom will simply take care of his sister all his life opposed to attempting to find her a marriage match? While I know Maggie has the i..."I just don't think there were that many options for women, and Eliot is making that point. Women's lives were very insecure because they were dependent on the men around them.
Maggie is obviously far more intelligent and more capable of doing what her father wants for Tom. But because she's a girl, she doesn't have the same educational opportunities that Tom has.
Kim wrote: "Lynnm wrote: "I'm digressing, but I would love to take a course in British history. I've read a couple of books, but since I didn't grow up knowing British history, it's hard to keep all the Kings/..."I looked up 1066 and All That, and it sounds funny. Unfortunately, because I don't know British history as well as a Brit, I would definitely lose a lot of the humor.
Since I love to read biographies, I think what I may do is read the biographies of selected important historical figures. Might work better than trying to read 1,000+ years of history from one book. ;)
Lynnm wrote: "Silver wrote: "Lynnm wrote: "Silver wrote: "So does Mr. Tulliver propose that Tom will simply take care of his sister all his life opposed to attempting to find her a marriage match? While I know M..."That is kind of my point. There were not really any other options for women so her father should have been more concerned about her being able to be properly married, instead of letting her continue down a path in which there will not be much opportunity for her and of which he feels will only lead her into trouble.
As a parent it seems he is taking a backseat role. He dotes upon her, and chides her in a playful way but he is not really preparing her for what to expect in the world, or what as a woman of that time period she will need in order to have financial stability in her life.
It is a risky and uncertain future for her for him to rely completely on Tom's generosity to her. As her father it is his responsibility to try and find a suitable marriage match for her.
I loved the dinner scene with the aunts, and seeing all of the different personalities of the sisters. Glegg is such a great name I thought, becasue just the sound of it gives an impression of the kind of person who would bare such a name. It just sounds so unpleasent. I loved the contrast between Glegg's old, out of fashion clothing and than the arrival of Aunt Pullet, billowing in. Though I found it interesting that while so much detail went into describing Glegg and Pullet, it seemed as if the details about Deane were vague and there was not a strong impression given about her. Also I liked the way in which all the men seemed to just stay in the background while the women had a more overbearing presence taking the forefront, the husbands sat back and tried to stay out of the whole thing.
There was also something so familair and relatable about the scene I thought, particuarly when Tom and Maggie were made to reluctantly greet thier aunts and uncles. I think that it an experince that many children across generations and time can relate to having at family gatherings.
I am just starting Chapter 7. The Dodsons are fun to watch. I guess for me too Silver. I started reading and wonder who Mrs. Dean was. But I am reading World Without End and there are many character to keep track of. Can you refresh my failed memory?
Rebecca, Mrs Deane is another of Mrs Tulliver's sisters. She's rather more in the background than Mrs Glegg and Mrs Pullet.
Thank you so much. I am glad to know since she was mentioned so briefly.
Rebecca wrote: "...I started reading and wonder who Mrs. Dean was. But I am reading World Without End and there are many character to keep track of. Can you refresh my failed memory? .."Rebecca and all -- I'm going to put a character list link up on the resources page.
Silver wrote: "I loved the dinner scene with the aunts, and seeing all of the different personalities of the sisters. Glegg is such a great name I thought, becasue just the sound of it gives an impression of the ..."I love these names too Silver because it makes them sound like a couple of old chickens that of course represent the domestic sphere they inhabit but also there is something a bit more ruthless about them in that they know the pecking order and will stop at nothing to ensure it is maintained.
I think perhaps Tulliver doesn't want Maggie to be educated because it puts that social order at risk. Women attempting to enter the public sphere by being educated somehow disturbs that pecking order.
I guess that Tulliver also sees Maggie as staying with him into his old age, as was the role of so many women to their parents before the days of 'welfare'. So spoiling her could be seen as being to his advantage later on. It could also be a better future for her than being unhappily married under the yoke of a stranger.
Silver wrote: "Lynnm wrote: "Silver wrote: "Lynnm wrote: "Silver wrote: "So does Mr. Tulliver propose that Tom will simply take care of his sister all his life opposed to attempting to find her a marriage match? ..."I know what you are saying. And off the top of my head, I can also think of Pride and Prejudice where Mr. Bennett wasn't bothered with teaching or disciplining his daughters and it came back to haunt him.
But I think that marrying children off was easier said than done. And for many women, sadly it came down to dependence on a male family member. I don't think Mr. Tulliver's that off the mark in hoping that Tom will help his sister.
Silver wrote: "I loved the dinner scene with the aunts, and seeing all of the different personalities of the sisters. Glegg is such a great name I thought, becasue just the sound of it gives an impression of the ..."I loved that scene too. And I can see why Mrs. Glegg is so annoying to Mr. Tulliver.
The one thing that I'm having difficulty reconciling is that both Mrs. Pullet and Mrs. Deane married well so their family had to be fairly well off. So why did Mrs. Tulliver marry further down? I would have thought she would have made a better "match."
Lynnm wrote: But I think that marrying children off was easier said than done. And for many women, sadly it came down to dependence on a male family member. I don't think Mr. Tulliver's that off the mark in hoping that Tom will help his sister."In reflection I think that while Mr. Tulliver has good intentions towards his children he perhaps lacks the forethought or shrewdness to effectively transform his good intentions into action.
This can be seen not only in his lack of discipline and indulgence with Maggie but also in his his intentions towards Tom. He wants a better life for Tom and his well meaning in his trying to seek Tom a more suitable and better education but the way he goes about is lacking.
He agrees to pay a considerable sum of money for a tutor for his son purely based upon the word of Mr. Riley of which we discover was not so reliable, and so we do not know what kind of education Tom might in fact end up and it may not be quite what Mr. Tulliver was hoping for.
I know I am jumping back on the discussion here, and for that I apologize, but the opening sentence of this book has always bothered me. I had to do some checking across versions to reassure myself it wasn't just a typo in the electronic versions I was using this time, so this is from Modern Library Classics:"A wide plain, where the broadening Floss hurries on between its green banks to the sea, and the loving tide, rushing to meet it, checks its passage with an impetuous embrace."
Shouldn't that read:
A wide plain, where the broadening Floss hurries on between its green banks to the sea, and the loving tide, rushing to meet it, check its passage with an impetuous embrace.
or perhaps:
A wide plain, where the broadening Floss hurries on between its green banks to the sea and the loving tide rushes to meet it, checks its passage with an impetuous embrace.
The use of punctuation is subject to fashion Lily. I remember that my mother and my aunts used both punctuation and capitalisation differently to the way I was taught. Eliot was writing pre Fowler's English Usage which had the effect of standardising the writing of English in the grammar schools. This description of the Floss/Trent BTW is as I knew it around Gainsborough, Lincolnshire when, in my canoe, I felt the tug of the tide from the North Sea as it flowed in and out of The Wash. It was a dangerous part of the river to navigate. My father was once arrested in our canoe for entering the Wash during the war - he didn't have his identification papers with him and, in any case, the Wash was mined!
http://www.bbc.co.uk/handsonnature/es...
http://www.flickr.com/photos/lincolni...
My question is not punctuation, Madge. In terms of grammar, it is whether the subject (and hence the verb) is singular or plural.More fundamentally, it is what does the sentence mean?
Is it a wide plain checking the passage of the Floss or is it a wide plain AND the tide that check its passage? Don't both the plain and the "loving tide" check the river's passage "with impetuous embrace"?
Mmmm moot point. The plain referred to is a flood plain. The passage starts with 'A WIDE PLAIN' often in caps emphasising, I think, that it is the plain which 'checks' the river's passage. A tide can 'embrace' by encircling a river but can a plain, which has the effect of slowing it down, 'checking' it?
What you describe makes sense. It is not what the original sentence says, however. It mixes the two ideas you indicate, not with clarity, at least in my umpteen readings of the thing.
Lily wrote: "What you describe makes sense. It is not what the original sentence says, however. It mixes the two ideas you indicate, not with clarity, at least in my umpteen readings of the thing."In my reading of the opening I would regard the vocabulary more than anything else. Eliot describes the river and the tide almost as lovers - 'loving tide rushing to meet it' and the 'embrace' of the sea - the personification suggests almost a masculine power in the river and the calming feminine influence of the tide or sea. The personification of the river is important here I think as it sets the river up as another protagonist in the novel, which I feel it most certainly is - especially as it features in the title.
I think I will join you in this read--I'm not sure what happened to the other group I was in, I loved Silas Marner and haven't read Mill on the Floss.
Liz wrote: "I think I will join you in this read--I'm not sure what happened to the other group I was in, I loved Silas Marner and haven't read Mill on the Floss."It will be great to have you. We will look forward to it.
One thing I wanted to mention which I find curious about Tom's behavior, is the fact that while on the one hand spouts this very unforgiving sense of justice which he is quick to impose upon others, yet he exhibits a high degree of cruelty towards animals. While on the one hand one might see his behavior and antics typical of a child and particularly of a boy child, but it seems that his senseless malevolence towards helpless innocent creatures conflicts with his high-minded ideals.
Also at one point he declares that he himself would not mind being punished if he ever deserved to be, and yet it seems whenever he does misbehave he finds a way of not seeing himself at fault.
Great observation Georgie!Welcome Liz!
One thing I wanted to mention which I find curious about Tom's behavior...Eliot seems to be setting Tom up as a typical, spoilt, Victorian male. She had problems with her own brother, so perhaps this is a reflection of her own feelings about the unfairness in the way boys were doted upon.
Eliot seems to be setting Tom up as a typical, spoilt, Victorian male. She had problems with her own brother, so perhaps ..."Interesting! It is also noticeable in the way Tom treats Maggie, I feel so sorry for her, she wants to be close to Tom but he just keeps being mean and angry towards her.
Esther wrote: Interesting! It is also noticeable in the way Tom treats Maggie, I feel so sorry for her, she wants to be close to Tom but he just keeps being mean and angry towards her. "That to me seems like typical sibling behavior, and perhaps particularly so between a brother and a sister. Though I have seen such things often enough between my own nieces, when one of them would tell the other how much she "hated" her or that they wished they didn't have to be sisters, and one would storm off refusing to play with the other.
Esther wrote: " Eliot seems to be setting Tom up as a typical, spoilt, Victorian male. She had problems with her own brother, so perhaps ..."But Tom does love Maggie - 'he was very fond of his sister' - perhaps he is just reacting to the pressure of male responsibility that Tulliver seems desperate to bestow on him. Tulliver seems to have his expectations for his children around the wrong way ( but he's the first to admit that he finds the world 'puzzlin'). Tom is obviously not that bright but he wants him to be academically successful which of course seems more appropriate for Maggie. Tom thinks girls are 'silly' which is what girls were expected to be. He probably feels intimidated by her which is why he thinks 'he meant to take care of her, make her his housekeeper and punish her when she did wrong' - and this just turns into him being cruel. In turn Maggie desperately seeks his approval.
I also like the way Eliot sets up the contrast between Lucy and Maggie very early on. Lucy is likened to a 'white kitten' and Maggie is the 'rough, dark, overgrown puppy'. Maggie is compared to lots of animals throughout the book and also a gypsy which suggests something wild and untamed about her - perhaps even dangerous. Her unruly hair also suggests this.
I.Outside Dorlcote Mill
II.Mr. Tulliver, of Dorlcote Mill, Declares His .Resolution about Tom
III..Mr. Riley Gives His Advice Concerning a School for Tom
IV.Tom Is Expected
V.Tom Comes Home
VI.The Aunts and Uncles Are Coming
VII..Enter the Aunts and Uncles
VIII..Mr. Tulliver Shows His Weaker Side
IX.To Garum Firs
X.Maggie Behaves Worse Than She Expected
XI.Maggie Tries to Run away from Her Shadow
XII.Mr. and Mrs. Glegg at Home
XIII.Mr. Tulliver Further Entangles the Skein of Life