Westermark effect

[Annalisa]

I just ran across this concept in another book and thought about Breaking Dawn. It puts into scientific terms why Renesmee and Jacob don't work. Have you ever heard of this? It says that children who grow up together don't find each other attractive; biology's way of making sure siblings don't mate. From Wiki: "When two people live in close domestic proximity during the first few years in the life of either one, both are desensitized to later close sexual attraction."

[Kandice]

That is definitely true, in the "real" world, but remember, this is fantasy. Jacob is a shapeshifter, and part of that is imprinting. According to the mythology of the series it is undeniable, unbreakable, and completely not up to Jacob and Bella. Part of enjoying these stories is the suspension of disbelief. If you take too far a step back and ty to analyze, it all seems a bit silly and farfetched, but with the pages 6 inches in front of your face... you WANT to believe

[Annalisa]

But that's just the thing, I didn't believe. I could suspend belief for the whole vampire concept, but not the imprinting on babies. It seemed too weird to buy into it, so it was nice to run across an explanation for why it was weird to me. And I'm more talking about Renesmee than Jacob, that Renesmee could never feel that way toward Jacob because he'd been a part of her life in those vital years. And yes it's true that it's fantasy and even Renesmee is not a normal human child so the rules don't always apply to her either. So if you want to believe when the fantasy is 6 inches in front of your face (I love that description), that's great. I really wish I could have with this one. But for anyone else who found the relationship wrong and wanted the scientific term for it, I post it here for them.

[Kandice]

Ha ha!!! Don't get me wrong, I think it's a little funky too. It seems to be a recurring thing for Meyer's, though. She likes her girls/women to be "taken care of". They are always sitting on laps, being carried, etc. I think she must look for an insane amount of nurturing in her relationships, or sees that as ideal. In those terms, having someone imprint on you from birth, consistantly and constantly aware of and working towards your every need, or want.... it fits.

[Annalisa]

That's true! I never thought about it that way. I saw the correlation between the obsessive meant-to-be-together aspect, but not the taken care of part. It has always bothered me that Meyer finds overbearance attractive and never thought about imprinting as a way for Renesmee to be controlled. But I won't get into the message this sends or how much it bothers me when women (and especially girls) say they should learn how to treat women from Edward. That being said, I do like Edward :).

[Amanda]

Well, in the LDS church, isn't that sort of Older Man - Younger Woman thing sort of encouraged?

[Annalisa]

Actually no. It may be part of the Fundamentalist tradition where men take on several wives, but mainstream Mormons have the same views on age as anyone else. Most married couples are within a few years of each other.

[Amanda]

I probably think that because recently I read a book about some woman who got out of a plural marriage where her husband was about 25 years older than she was, and he had wives WAY younger than she was. The family was with that Warren Jeffs group and the whole situation was just sad and awful.

[Annalisa]

Yes. I know what book you are talking about. And it is sad. But they aren't LDS. They are Fundamentalists, which broke off from the LDS Church because they want to practice polygamy, which Mormons do not. Which is a topic loaded with issues and opinions. If consenting adults want to practice polygamy that's one thing, but when children are forced into, that is upsetting.

[Kandice]

I wasn't making any sort of reference to her religious beliefs! I am very aware of the difference between fundamentalists and LDS. The examples of men "taking care" of the women/girls in her books, are age appropriate. Well, Edward is almost 200, but he looks 17! And Melanie/Wanda seem to be about the same age group as Jared/Ian. I've just noticed how much she paints that picture of a girl needing to be cuddled, coddled, carried and protected. Realisically, when is the last time a man carried me anywhere? NEVER! But she seems to set up just that scenario on many occasions in her books. It doesn't distract from my enjoyment, it's just not realistic to me. Hence, making the whole imprinting on a baby situation more acceptable in the perameters of the world she has created.

[Tami]

I see correlation clear through all the Twilight books with the LDS church beliefs and standards. That said, I have a friend, who is LDS, that was married and sealed in on of their temples. According to the beliefs and teachings of the LDS church, marraige and sealing in the temple is for eternity. She compared her marraige to Edward and Bella's.

I also live not to far from the Fundementalist group of which Warren Jeffs was the leader. Whatever book you read regarding their lives, it has probably been edited to lessen the actual situations of their lives. That is a really sad situation.

[Amanda]

It was "ESCAPE" by Carolyn (Caroline?) Jessop. And if you weren't convinced the FLDS were The Crazy and Scary before, you would be after. The amount of brainwashing and manipulation that goes on the the families and the entire group is hard to believe - for a woman who wasn't brought up having these ideas presented as "the way it is," I kept thinking, WHY ARE YOU STAYING? GET OUT. But then you realize that it takes a lot to go against the things everyone around you, parents, siblings, etc.

Anyway, didn't mean to highjack the Westermarck discussion. The Westermarck effect is one of the (many) reasons that kibbutzim in Israel weren't as successful as Israelis once hoped. No one wanted to marry anyone they'd been brought up with, even if you weren't related in any way, just the proximity during the first six years of life suppressed any attraction.

The whole idea of the "imprinting" and raising the child you are bonded to is pretty squicky. The book "The Wide, Wide World" (pub. 1850) has a much older man take on the spiritual and moral teaching of a young girl, and basically he raises her to be his ideal of the perfect woman and she marries him as soon as she comes of age, natch. Apparently Susan Warner (pen name: Elizabeth Wetherell) thought it was A-OK.

[Kandice]

When you say elementary school, you don't mean you grew up in diapers together, do you? I only ask, because I think that's part of what they are talking about. Not just growing from childhood to adulthood together, but through all the stages of development. Babyhood to adulthood.
As far as raising a girl to be a perfect wife, it sounds more Stepford, or slavery-like to me! Kind of gross! Like when men date younger women the same age as their daughters. I don't find it nearly as offensive for a man to date a woman, 20 years his junior, if he has no children, especially daughters, of his own

[Annalisa]

Amanda,
I actually think the concept of older men marrying younger (and might I had vulnerable and naive) women is correlated and quite an interesting tangent.

Tami,
There are a lot of correlations between LDS beliefs and Twilight--enough to start its own thread--and yeah being married for eternity (and having children) top the list.

Nolan,
Like Kandice said, it has to be someone you knew before the age of 3 for the Westermarck Effect to work. If you met your wife in elementary school, than you wouldn't fall into that category. But can I just say, wow! That doesn't happen everyday.

[Penny]

Okay, so I know this discussion ended days ago but I still need to add my two cents here.

I am a member of the LDS church and I refuse to see any correlation between Stephenie Meyer's vampires and the LDS religion.

So...Vampire-ism is supposed to be the equivalent of eternal exaltation?

Sorry, ones rationalities would have to stretch pretty far to see that connection. Seriously.

Bella and Edwards freaky relationship is the supposed equivalent of temple marriage?

Yeah, I don't see it.

I'm bothered that people keep trying to make the connection. Sure Meyer added in some of her morals but whether it was consciously or not, I can't tell.

But really, the twilight series isn't an allegory by any stretch of the imagination. It's just a story. JUST. A. STORY (with a ridiculous ending).

As far as this Westermarck effect thing goes: I read about it when I was reading up on imprinting (because I'd never heard of such a concept before reading this series) obviously, in the real world imprinting isn't as demented as it is in Meyer's Twilight universe but it does exist.

Anyway, I found myself thinking about the Westermarck Effect, wondering if it could be applied to Jacob and Nessie. In the end, I came to the conclusion that SM is too into strange relationships to actually entertain the idea of something realistic (Like the Westermarck Effect) to actually happen.

Imprinting IS irrevocable but it doesn't mean that Nessie and Jacob will someday be lovers. Whatever happens between the two of them is entirely up to Nessie. She 'owns' Jacob now and she makes the decisions in how their relationship will evolve. Perhaps she WON'T want Jacob as a lover (I really hope this is the case).

Don't believe me? Read everything Jacob says when he talks about imprinting. Specifically in Eclipse. Also, Edward mentions that Sam is 'Emily's Sam', as if she owns him.

Another clue is when Bella asks Jacob if the imprintee has a choice in the matter and he says 'yes, but how could one resist such devotion?'

I believe that Nessie has the ability to resist such devotion(because, being Bella's daughter, she is just *THAT* special), but her ability will only manifest itself when she's older and she realizes she might want to fall in love, like a normal person.

Is it just me or is anyone else completely disgusted everytime Jacob is mentioned in the third section of Breaking Dawn? I mean, who gives a baby a promise ring (*cringe*)? Who would have a slumber party in a tent with a baby (future bride???) and her parents? (*double-cringe*)

Seriously, 'the imprint heard round the world' is what ruined it for me. He didn't even want to imprint to begin with. Now he's stuck with a freak. Forever.

Oh and I've found that everyone who likes Jacob's ridiculous imprint on Renesmee actually couldn't stand Jacob before Breaking Dawn. These people HATED New Moon (a book all Jacob fans thoroughly enjoy reading).

Reason for this rant?

My inlaws are in town and I need to vent about SOMETHING. ANYTHING. Even if it doesn't relate to my current frustrations.

[Kandice]

I don't know about anyyone else, but I wasn't implying that anything in Twilight was an allegory for Mormonism! I was merely commenting on the fact that her beliefs are very obvious. Abstaining before marriage, cursing, alcohol use, caffeine, things like that. Even before I knew she was Mormon, I suspected she was, upon my first reading, because I have some friends who very devoutly are, and her ideals seemed so similiar. Is it safe to assume you are Mormon, Penny?

[Penny]

I'm totally mormon (AKA: LDS, The church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints).

Anyway, people in my reading group keep making the comparison of The Twilight Series to our beliefs...as if it was the next Narnia series or something like that (An actual allegory).

For whatever reason, the comparison bothers me. Probably because Bella is a selfish ho-bag (I'm mormon but I use words like Ho-bag) and Edward is manipulative and creepy. Their 'relationship' is more like an unhealthy obsession then anything else.

I kept reading the series because I liked the Werewolf (oh, my bad, Shape-shifters!) part of it. I liked the whole pack, Leah included.

I was hoping Leah and Jacob would end up together.

Too bad about the creepy imprint.

[Penny]

I guess what I'm trying to say is:

I can't stand that people are trying to make the series more important then it is. Like, there might be some real deep meaning to it.

It's just a story. Albeit a very addicting, crappy story that I can't get out of my head.

I'm a jacob fan. or...I *was* a jacob fan. Now he's too creepy for me.

[Kandice]

I am Episcopalian, and I hate when people make the Narnia books more than they are. He has said, himself, they weren't written to represent Christianity, he just happens to be a very devout Christian, and thats how they spewed forth!!!!!! I didn't enjoy the books, and hate, at church, when people hint that is non-Christian in some way. As if my literary taste has anything to do with my beliefs. They are novels, written to make money...COME ON!!!!! In the same vein, I find it ridiculous that some Christians oppose the Harry Potter series as sacreligious, denomic, whatever... anything that gets kids reading...
I suspected these books may be the same for the Mormon community.
As far as Jacob goes... I still really like him. He does some seriously hinky things in the last book, but he's just a character being written by Meyer! I believe someone else mentioned his loyalty, and unwavering desire to help someone in need. He has a great personality. I must also admit (shamefacedly!) that I think the boy playing him in the movie is... PERFECT!!!! Well, minus that ridiculous hair. Should I ever read these again, he is the perfect face to picture for Jacob, in my humble opinion!!!!

[Penny]

Okay, so I have to own up to something here.

I have NEVER read any of the Narnia books. Ever.

Actually, I've tried but I can't get through the Magicians Nephew. Not even an audio book version of it, where all I had to do is listen to it. It was just too boring (which is saying something because I can read just about any novel and enjoy it).

So yeah I'll have to admit my ignorance on the whole allegory, not allegory status on that story. I've always been told it was an allegory.

Sorry about the mix-up.

Oh yeah, people in my church keep talking about how vampireism is a metaphor for how things will be after we die. These people are grasping at straws as far as I'm concerned.

Because, really, it's not the same. Not even sort of. At all.

As far as the no sex before marriage thing goes...yeah, I can see that she threw that in there but I don't know if it was to "teach a lesson" or if she just didn't want Bella and Edward sexing up.

Oh and about the kid playing Jacob in the movie...he sort of looks like how I pictured but not exactly. And yes, his hair was ridiculous. And his CRAZY WHITE teeth were a distraction.

I always pictured Steven Strait in The Covenant as Jacob (but only after he got all tall and studly).

[Kandice]

I think a werewolf with "crazy white" teeth, when you are going for cute, is a neccesity. Next to his lovely, dark skin....aaahhh.

I think many times, authors beliefs seep into their books. Not only about the here and now, but the after-here and now too. If they believe there is nothing, that will show up too. I had no idea there was anyone who saw vampirism as a metaphor for any other after-death state than vampirism itself. I think that's a little gross! Don't get me wrong. I have loved the genre since I sneaked and read my mom's copy of Salem's Lot when I was 10, but it's FANTASY!!!!! To think anything else, or try to compare it, even metaphorically, to anything in real life is demented. That sounds harsh, and I'm sorry, but I agree with the whole "grasping at straws" comment.

Back on the imprinting issue... birds are the strongest imprinters, and we hatched some ducklings once. For all intents and purposes, I WAS thier mother! In all honesty, it was a bit trying after a while. The experience led to to believe that Renesme, theoretically, would eventually balk. Yes, it will be comforting in childhood to have unconditional love from someone other than your parents, but as a teen, and later, an adult, I think it will become trying, as well as smothering. I would suspect a were imprinting on a baby will end up meaning a lot of heartache for the were in question. They may end up together, but it would, in all likelihood, be after a lot of resentment, anger, and hurt first!!!!

[Annalisa]

Penny,
I'm going to go out of mold for you here: I liked New Moon; I am NOT a Jacob fan; and I think the imprinting is CREEPY. But my appeal to New Moon is that it's not cheesy making out. I go for tragedies. You've thought a lot about imprinting. It just doesn't seem to be a subject that settles easily. As Kandice says, the imprinting doesn't give a happy ending (unless you force it without thinking about it) because it will cause a lot of heartache. Why do you think it is that SM likes unconventional relationships? Instead of talking about how that is affected by her religion, I want to know what in her personal life or preferences caters to that.

It doesn't really bother me when people compare Twilight with LDS beliefs because it is easy to see how her beliefs have (subconsciously I'm sure) seeped into the literature. Maybe it's the English major in me that gets finding symbolism (although I can see how the comparison can irk one, especially if you heard it enough, and at church book club from girls trying to idolize SM no less). Maybe it's that her human high school friends look like they belong in a bad '80s church video or the strange happily ever after doesn't fit with the story, but to me the series reeks of Mormon author so I can see how some will pinpoint all the LDS beliefs that influence her writing.

As far as her standards go, I don't think her refrain from writing sex scenes (or her dismissal that she has never written a young adult novel) is necessarily praiseworthy. She invented a female character who is begging for sex from her boyfriend. As much as young girls idolize Edward, it sets up an expectation that the guy will set the boundaries and respect your virtue. The girl still wanted it and tried to get it which is not the same as high standards and that message seriously concerns me. That and the overbearing boyfriend. If girls emulate this series, what types of boyfriends are they going to find?

I've never read Chronicles of Narnia either. Kandice brings up another interesting discussion on Harry Potter and religion. You want to find religious allegories in literature, HP is just as easy to compare as CofN. As far as my daughter goes, I don't want her reading Twilight, not now, and especially not when she's an inexperienced teen (not that I'd stop her when she's older). But Harry Potter? Bring it on.

[Kandice]

Annalisa-When you phrase it that way... it's not such a great idea for girls to be given the impression that the boy/man in a relationship will have the morals, or strength to be the one to stop. That certainly isn't the usual case. Bella IS basically begging for it, but I still don't have a problem with my daughters reading it. I don't want them reading anything trashy, but like movies with a bit of "sexual" content, I hope I have instilled in them the values I hope they will live by. I just love that these books are fairly long, and yet keep kids interested. All of my children already love to read, but a lot of their friends, who do not, are reading these books. I find that when they realize a book is not a chore, they tend to read more, and give more books a try, than they otherwise might have.

[Annalisa]

Kandice, You are right that as parents it is our job to instill values so that children can differentiate between what they are and contradictory messages in a book. I know as a teen I read books with questionable material that didn't affect me, but girls relate so strongly to this whiny self-centered girl who cares for nothing but a too-serious relationship for her age. They want to be her and have boyfriends just like Edward. I see girls that idolize these books, particularly the relationship, and their mothers who love that they love the books and I think really? (her? arrested development joke for fans of the show.) Maybe it is because they don't read and this is something that makes reading fun. I just think mothers should be aware how obsessive girls are over the book.

Plus the book is sexy; I have had friends mention that when they read the book it gets them in the mood. Granted these are married women so they relate to the physical scenes on their level while inexperienced girls are going to relate to it on their own. But when I read the bedroom scene in Eclipse I immediately thought "I don't want my 11-year-old niece reading this." And even more so in Breaking Dawn. I'm not saying it will alter her values, but it was a little heavy for her age and I felt guilty that I was the one who screened the series for her when it was just Twilight and New Moon. It's being sold as a great story with moral characters, but I don't agree that it emphasizes morality.

I'm just leery of the force with which it's being given to teen girls without question about the effect it is having on these obsessed girls. My daughter is 7 and aware of the hype surrounding the book and asked me when she can read it. I hope to have enough literature floating around her brain by then that she can separate the fantasy from reality and realize that the relationship is not realistic. I just think parents should be aware of how literature is affecting their children and see that this isn't the perfect story and the perfect relationship. It's great that it's making girls read who aren't into reading, but it has its pitfalls too.

[Leslie]

I agree with you, Annalisa. It's really scary to think that girls get so obsessed with this! I actually had told some friends with early teen girls that, while the relationship was intense, it was at least clean. After my daughter (13 - late to the Twilight party) read the book, she said she thought Edward was a stalker! Thanks to the movie and hottie Robert Pattenson, she's now into the Twilight experience! I'm comfortable with the fact that we'll continue to discuss the 'racier' parts; however, I fear there's not a lot of that going on for all of the girls, especially the pre-teens, out there.

The 'climate' of the series really changed after New Moon. I've read some very disturbing reviews about how 'domineering' Edward is. I hadn't really put that into perspective, but it's concerning when their relationship, while not physically abusive, does have the components of an abusive relationship (spending time with only each other, etc).

Breaking Dawn, in my opinion, was just ridiculous! I can't get out of my head the fact that they broke the headboard and left feathers all over for the cleaning crew. How often is that allowed in the real world without some issues! Even Johnny Dep had to pay for the motel rooms he trashed. I thought the author could have at least had Edward hammering the headboard back together and running a vaccuum over the feathers! I won't even touch the birth process--make that into a movie! Ugh!

[Kandice]

I agree, that the age of the reader makes a HUGE difference. My god-daughters, (15, 14) and my older daughters, (16, 14) have read them, but my 11 year old is not allowed. I also agree with the thought, that if Breaking Dawn had been first, I would not have allowed them to read the series. Because we had read the first 3, the series was already approved!

Even more than any of the sexual tension in the books, I think the idea of Edward, and to an extent, Jacob "babying" Bella is even more a subject to be discussed with young readers. I am referring to her being held on laps, carried, and basically treated by these boys/men, as if she were a small, helpless child! The same situation holds true in her book Host. This is definitely a discussion the girls, their mother and I have had. Even though I thoroughly enjoy the books and stories, I find that sooooo irritating!!!!

[Annalisa]

Here, here. I think it's a combination of males being overbearing and girls being weak. Somehow Meyer thinks that is the ideal relationship and she's selling it to girls. I love that Leslie's daughter thought Edward was a stalker and can see that the relationship is not normal. The important thing is that Twilight shouldn't be thrust into young girls hands without discussion. And I'm glad to see you are both discussing the book with your daughters.
Speaking of Johnny Depp... now there's a guy who could have played Edward in his younger day.

[Penny]

@ Annalisa:
"As Kandice says, the imprinting doesn't give a happy ending (unless you force it without thinking about it) because it will cause a lot of heartache."

I fully agree with this statement. And yeah, imprinting seems to be one of the creepiest concepts in the whole series.

"Why do you think it is that SM likes unconventional relationships?"

I cannot begin to think why it is she seems obsessed with unconventional relationships. A gimmick, possibly??? But really, I think it's getting old. One unconventional relationship, per series, is more then enough. Bella and Edward were a strange enough pairing ("You smell so good and you are ridiculously good-looking. Let's sit around and talk about that for a long time. Ultimately we'll come to the conclusion that we are "meant to be" or whatever"), why add the imprinting in the wolf storyline? I mean, really, what's the point? Drama for the sake of drama??? I think YES.

This is a little off topic but I need to say it: It bugs me that SM even introduced Leah Clearwater to the storyline, developed her character to the point where she seemed important and then didn't do anything with that. At the very least, she could have just left her out of the story altogether or just downplayed her role in the second section of the book.

As far as I'm concerned, Leah Clearwater was just introduced to throw us off. Which was a lot of effort for little pay-off. SM didn't want anyone thinking that Jacob would actually imprint(because the disgusting imprint on a baby is such an interesting place to take the story...not). I don't know.

Why am I even bringing up Leah Clearwater right now? Because her part in the story is one of the more pointless plot holes.

"As far as her standards go, I don't think her refrain from writing sex scenes (or her dismissal that she has never written a young adult novel) is necessarily praiseworthy. She invented a female character who is begging for sex from her boyfriend. As much as young girls idolize Edward, it sets up an expectation that the guy will set the boundaries and respect your virtue. The girl still wanted it and tried to get it which is not the same as high standards and that message seriously concerns me. That and the overbearing boyfriend. If girls emulate this series, what types of boyfriends are they going to find?"

I full on agree with the above statement. My husband was the first one to point out that Bella was a bit of a 'ho' and not many guys would turn that down, unless they weren't interested whatsoever (gay or just too good to be true. Of course it's the latter). SM does the same thing in The Host, having the protagonist offer herself up to a 26-year-old guy that hasn't had sex in heaven knows how long, and as far as we know, has no reason to deny her, besides the fact that he doesn't have a condom and it turns out that he just so happens to be a nice guy (what luck).

But really, teenage boys would not turn down an opportunity at sex. At the very least, they'd struggle with turning the girl down. I know this as a fact (so should any woman that ever dated). But what about the thousands of girls out there that read SM's novels and are dumb enough to believe that the guy in the relationship will be responsible enough for the both of them?

[Annalisa]

Penny,
I think SM herself is attracted to strange men so that's what she writes about. But I can see with the weird age thing that her growing older that could have an effect on it. Maybe her excuse to crush on her own characters? :)
I don't think she put Leah in the story to throw us off. From what I've heard from SM herself the story was headed that way and she thought for a minute Leah and Jacob would end up together, but she was so set on the imprinting she cut off that plot direction. In that case, she should have cut it out of the book completely, but as her page count shows SM doesn't know how to cut.
And the sex thing, we all know that teenage girls can be quite dumb quite often. No offense to teenage girls, but life is a learning experience and at that age, you just don't have that much dating experience to make wise choices.

[Leslie]

Thank you both for your comments! I've said from the get-go that I'm concerned that some 15 year old girl would think she's got herself an Edward. I work at a middle school; I can't imagine any boy being in a girl's bedroom and not being a willing participant in anything she's willing to do!

I can't even write about Leah as a character without getting furious. She's unable to have children which makes her 'less' of a person (which I think is so horrid!!!). She's unlucky in love. I feel that the Native Americans are treated rather like second class citizens.

[Penny]

@ Leslie:

"
I can't even write about Leah as a character without getting furious. She's unable to have children which makes her 'less' of a person (which I think is so horrid!!!). She's unlucky in love. I feel that the Native Americans are treated rather like second class citizens."

I totally agree with you. Actually I really like Leah Clearwater. Upon reading Eclipse for the first time, I was convinced that Leah and Jacob were going to end up together. I just knew it. I even got super excited when she abandoned Sam's pack for Jacob's pack and even more so when she and Jacob began to bond.

Imagine the epic level of disappointment I felt when Jacob imprinted on the newborn freak of nature. I literally chucked my book across the room and refused to finish reading (although curiosity got the better of me, as it always does, so I kept reading...unfortunately).

And yeah, I'm ticked that the girl was robbed of everything. EVERYTHING! And if you think about it (and I have. A lot), everything Bella gains, Leah loses. And for whatever reason Leah is portrayed as a bitter harpy for feeling so robbed, but Bella, who has everything (and has done nothing to deserve it), spends all the live-long day complaining about anything and everything she can think of.

And yeah, the Native Americans are portrayed as stupid and wild, which seems like a HUUUUGE step in the wrong direction, if you ask me.

[Penny]

@ Annalisa

"I think SM herself is attracted to strange men so that's what she writes about. But I can see with the weird age thing that her growing older that could have an effect on it. Maybe her excuse to crush on her own characters? :)"

HAHAHA, you're probably right. And yeah, she must be into dysfunctional relationships. Which is so sad. Soooo sad.

"I don't think she put Leah in the story to throw us off. From what I've heard from SM herself the story was headed that way and she thought for a minute Leah and Jacob would end up together, but she was so set on the imprinting she cut off that plot direction."

If Meyer really was going to have the story go in that direction, but chose to go the disgusting imprint path anyway...I don't know what to say to that. Because I am just about choking on my rage here. Really.

And, I have less respect for her as a person. I sorta want to slap Stephenie Meyer now.

Because all she had to do is have Seth imprint on the nasty little abomination, thus keeping the pack in the story, while Jacob and Leah fell in love. See. Problem solved (too bad Stephenie couldn't see this).

Okay, that does it! Stephenie Meyer Fails At Life!

(And consequently, so do I, for caring SO MUCH about these stupid books. Seriously, I need a new book series to read. I'm taking any and all suggestions).

[Kandice]

Okay Penny, I agree the imprinting is a bit freaky, but having Seth imprint on Bella would not have tied up loose ends! His imprinting on Bella was, in a way, justification for his never giving up on Bella. He NEEDED to be near her (for the eventual baby). She treated him like crap, made it clear it couldn't go anywhere, and still he stuck by her. In a disgusting way, I think Renesme was his reward of sorts! Gross, I know, but within the confines of the story, it makes sense. (weird, freaky, gross sense, but story sense, just the same) :)

[Penny]

Renesmee is the nasty little abomination, but so is Bella so I can see where you got confused.

[Kandice]

I KNEW that, silly! I was just saying... HAHAHA!!!! Oh! Now, I see my typo! I meant "having Seth imprint on Renesme". Sorry!

[Penny]

@ Kandice:

Okay, I'm not sure if you were trying to gross me out, but you succeeded. Because getting someone's baby as a reward for lusting/fantasizing/crushing on them for a long time, is really gross. Like, really gross.

Because, really, just because he liked being around Bella, doesn't mean it was just because he was attracted to her unborn fetus (and there is no need to explain to me that he wasn't sexually attracted to her fetus. Really, I get SM's jacked up rationale on this front. Jake isn't a pedophile...at least, not at first. Jake stepped over that fine line when he gave his baby girlfriend a promise ring. *cringe*).

And does this mean that Jacob was in love with Bella in New Moon because of her eggs? A part of him knew she was going to be the mother of his ONE-AND-ONLY-TRUE-LOVE??? Because, really, that's even more disgusting.

And what's wrong with plain-old falling in love? You know, like us mere mortals have been doing for thousands of years. If anyone could have over-come the urge to imprint, it would have been Jake. Stephenie made it clear that he was just better at controlling his instincts from the beginning.

Besides, there's got to be some secret way to get around imprinting, because there has got to be a reason why imprinting was considered 'rare'. Why are all the wolf-boys imprinting left and right?

See, there I go again. Ranting about a subject I've thought too much about.

You see how I completely and utterly fail at life? I mean, really. A normal person would be like, "Wow, that book sucked" and move on with life. But I can't. Move on, that is.

I keep thinking about Breaking Dawn. It's like I'm addicted to hating it.

There should be something like 'Breaking Dawn Anonymous' for people like me. Because I was normal before I read Breaking Dawn. And I'm normal when I'm not talking about Breaking Dawn. But when Breaking Dawn is brought up, I can't stop myself from going off on it.

[Kandice]

Okay, when you phrase it that exact way... I don;t mean Renesme was his intended reward, just in the whole story arc kind of thing.

About the obsessing...I soooo obsess over certain novels, movies, whatever (Star Wars, Trek). My husband thinks I am an A #1 nut!!!! I think it's good for you, so obsess on Penny!!!! We all need to stick together. (in our own little corner of the padded room they allow us!)

[Sarah]

Here's my explanation as to why the whole Jacob imprinting on Reneesme was so weird (to put it mildly). She origianlly wrote "Twilight" and "Forever Dawn" (which was an adult themed book). Her publishers wanted to publish "Twlight" and then have her write 2 books in between which ended up being "New Moon" and "Eclipse". SM has said that "Breaking Dawn" pretty much went the same way as "Forever Dawn" except she had to tone it down and make it appropriate for teens. The other change was that originally, before the middle two books existed, Jacob had a mild crush on Bella but not the obsession that develops in the middle books and Bella doesn't ever return the feeling (he's more like her kid brother). So, if you think about the story continuity in moving from "Twilight" to "Forever Dawn" the imprinting would probably go over better for the reader. However, once she wrote the middle two books and developed their relationship, it changed the whole dynamic of the story and the imprinting became downright creepy and uncomfortable to many readers. In my opinion, she should have changed that part of the plot in "Breaking Dawn" to better fit the developed story which she failed to do. I believe she was under a lot of time restraints and pressure to get "The Host" finished around the same time and as a reult did not put as much time and effort into revising the "Forever Dawn" draft to make it into "Breaking Dawn". She let me down as a fan by doing this but I also think her editor is to blame, too. If you haven't watched the string of video interviews on the Entertainment Weekly website about "Breaking Dawn" after it came out, I would reccommend it. Her answers to many of the questions disappointed fans have are very interesting.

[Leslie]

I agree that she was rushed; Her publisher really failed her by allowing her to do so much and, in my opinion, by not having better editing (even if not in the plot of the story--just the grammar/over use of words, etc.). Even if Jacob hadn't 'loved' Bella, I'd have been creeped out by the imprinting--it's just a little too FLDS for me!

[Annalisa]

Sarah,
Thank you! Yes, exactly. I have seen the clips. I still think the imprinting would have been creepy but it becomes exponential after he has a crush on Bella. My favorite comment about the editor comes from my friend: "someone had to be an adult in this relationship and nobody was." They just let her do whatever she wanted and run with it because she has become such a big name. She said herself (on those clips) that she was surprised they left in the comment from Edward to Jacob about him fathering her children. It didn't even appear that the book had been edited. The flaws that were in there were pretty major. I think if her editor had acted as the checkpoint she needed the book could have been salvaged. I don't know though; she seemed pretty set on keeping "Forever Dawn" even though the plot didn't work anymore.

[Sarah]

I agree, Annalisa! SHe also made a comment in the interviews about forgetting that she hadn't been using the Cullen's individual nicknames throughout the series when asked why they suddenly showed up in "Breaking Dawn". It is evident that she didn;t have her head completely in the game which is too bad. While there are fans who still loved "BD", she still alienated a huge part of her fan base.

[Annalisa]

Which is just sad. She had such a deep fan base and many of them went from avid fans to haters. It had to take a pretty big disaster to so widely turn people. Personally, I think her hesitance about Midnight Sun has just as much to do with the reception of Breaking Dawn than anything. I think she's afraid of how her next book will be taken.

[Penny]

@ Annalisa:

She probably is afraid of how her next books will be taken. Honestly, I'd be surprised if she is able to strike gold, yet again. Though, I don't really feel she struck gold when she wrote the Twilight Saga. It was just dumb luck, really.

Because the series isn't all that good. And I'm not just saying that because Breaking Dawn is so full of fail. All the books kind of suck--even New Moon, which I (kindasorta) happen to love.

And The Host: was okay. Actually I like it more then the Twilight saga. But I know for a fact that a lot of people didn't like The Host at all. A lot of people can't get past the first 90 pages because, according to them, it's too boring.

But yeah, I wonder if she really can write something relevant, even if she tried. I mean, the woman had the attention of half the world's youth and what does she choose to do with that??? Spew garbage at them!

A lot of the kids reading her books are smart enough to realize Bella and Edward are a creepy pairing but the VAST MAJORITY have been suckered into thinking Bella and Edward are the definition of true love--some ideal to shoot for (sans vampirism, of course).

I mean, SM could have made some sort of statement, planted some sort of idea in the heads of today's youth; made them think for once. But she didn't, which is so sad.

And I'm sick of everyone saying, "Hey at least these kids are reading for once." Because, really, I'm pretty sure a lot of those kids are stupider because they read the Twilight saga.

Seriously, she's tainted the minds of a generation (or two. Possibly more?).

(Ahh, that felt good. I've been holding that in for far too long).

[Annalisa]

Penny,
I just realized you replied! That just made my day :). You think that over time hating Breaking Dawn will subside, but no, how ridiculous the series is just becomes more and more clear. And the more girls rave about it the more you wish they would stop sounding so stupid. I never thought I'd say it, but it would almost be better if they weren't reading.
I wish SM had made a statement. And the sad thing is that she thinks she did make a statement because they got married and had a family. Sigh. I liked Twilight and New Moon, but have always laughed at myself for doing so because I've always known it wasn't that good but now even those books drive me crazy. And the more screaming insensate fans the series gets the more I want to distance myself from it.
Oh and about The Host: I thought it was boring in the middle. My issue with the book is that it was so cheesy. You think you can't get worse than Twilight, but she did. I would laugh at conversations out loud because nobody would say those things. But even more so it was an eye-opener for all the questionable character flaws that SM loves: the over-bearing boy, the ditsy weak girl. And the whole issue with guys and underage girls. I don't think the book would have done well if it weren't for Twilight fans which is sad because the idea had great potential. SM had great potential too.