Classics and the Western Canon discussion
Discussion - Homer, The Iliad
>
Iliad Resources
Elizabeth Vandiver has a Teaching Company course on the Iliad which may be of interest to some. http://www.thegreatcourses.com/tgc/co...
It's on sale at the moment, but if you don't want to spring for a copy, your library can probably get it on Interlibrary Loan -- my library shows that it's fairly widely available on the ILL catalog in all formats, cassette, CD, and DVD.
Everyman wrote: "Elizabeth Vandiver has a Teaching Company course on the Iliad which may be of interest to some. http://www.thegreatcourses.com/tgc/co...
It's on sale at the moment, b..."
Probably obvious, but if you do pursue this resource, it will deal with the entire Iliad and hence has the potential of introducing knowledge of the upcoming action (spoilers?).
(I am one of those who gets irritated with those obsessively concerned with spoilers when it comes to classics or even books outside of mysteries. I feel in many cases any reader over eighteen probably will, even "should," know the critical plot long before they start reading, even if they have never encountered the actual text previously. I also think over concern about spoilers can be detrimental to good conversations. But, I also recognize my view on the subject isn't necessarily shared, so I try to respect those who don't, even when that feels as if the discussion is being cramped.)
I have to say after reading the first book in Fagels, Lattimore and Pope, my inclination would be to learn Homeric Greek, but there's NO WAY I can do this based on the reading schedule. I want to experience the movement of the dactylic hexameter. :-)Does anyone know of good sources for recent Homeric scholarship, what current concerns are? I bought the Cambridge Companion to Homer on faith, but I'm curious if anyone knows what classical scholars today are talking about.
I strongly agree with Lily about "spoilers". If spoilers were so important, we wouldn't be rereading. Also, I find every time I reread "King Lear" I hope it will work about better for Cordelia this time, even though to find the type shifting in my edition would be seriously disconcerting.
Well, rather than do it the hard way -- when I went to search on the Iliad in Greek that was one of the comments. I know enough modern Greek (10 words?) to read and pronounce that one. :-)And not to be mysterious the word - Ευχαριστώ (ef-char-ees-TOW) means "thank you".
It is the root word of Eucharist in English (a form of thanksgiving).
Dwight has kindly mentioned to me that a group called Reading Odyssey (I think the term Odyssey in the name isn't intended to refer specifically to the Homeric epic but to the broader concept of an odyssey as a prolonged and exploratory journey) will also be reading the Iliad at about the same time we are. I'm not familiar with the group Reading Odyssey, but it describes itself as "a partnership between scholars and readers, [which] aims to help adults read and discuss historically important books and ideas." They say "we run reading groups and lecture series for intellectually curious adults."
Sounds as though it's aims are very consonant with ours here, but presumably a bit more structured in the specific inclusion of scholars and formal lectures. I don't know to what extent they encourage discussion among readers, as we do here, and to what extent they emphasize the teaching and lecture aspects.
But presumably there should be some good resources and information there which could inform and assist our reading here for any who have the time and inclination to explore their program. I recognize the potential danger that RO may siphon off a few readers here who choose to participate there and skip the discussion here, but I hope those are only a few, if any, and if that is a choice of a few, so be it. The point is to read, enjoy, and discuss the Iliad, and however people can do that to their best advantage, that's what really matters, isn't it?
I do see that while one can join an initial program there for free, they do ask for financial support from "veteran" participants, which separates them from Goodreads, which remains free to all.
At any rate, here is a link to their hope page for those who are interested in looking further into this. And thanks, Dwight, for bringing this to my attention for sharing with the group.
BTW, here's Dwight's posting about it on A Common Reader.
My library had only very beat up copy of the Iliad, translated by WHD Rouse. Any opinions on this translation for a fairly inexperienced classic reader? I can ILL other translations if Rouse is sub-par.
Millicent wrote: "My library had only very beat up copy of the Iliad, translated by WHD Rouse. Any opinions on this translation for a fairly inexperienced classic reader? I can ILL other translations if Rouse is s..."Rouse was certainly an eminent scholar, and his prose translation was the preferred translation for many in its day (it was published in 1938). It's been superseded in the minds of many by later translations, particularly Lattimore's from 1951 and later verse translations (Fitzgerald, Fagles, and others).
Prose translations were for the 19th and into the 20th century more common than poetic translations, but since Lattimore, poetic translations have been more common.
Nothing wrong with Rouse at all, though. Perfectly fine prose translation.
Update on Reading Odyssey: I tried to register for the Iliad reading, but they said all the tickets are sold. Apparently there's a limit to the number of people who can attend these programs. I don't know what resources if any are available to non-attendees. If you have any more luck registering, let us know your secret!
Eman -- I got a used copy today of Eva Brann's book
Homeric Moments: Clues to Delight in Reading the Odyssey and the Iliad
. Am a bit disappointed to discover how oriented toward The Odyssey rather than The Iliad it is, but will still try to glean some tidbits. (As I recall, she was an instructor you had at St. John's?)
With regard tor reading Odyssey. 1) I signed up with Reading Odyssey. There are no more "free" places. There are places if you're willing to pay. The "suggested contribution" is $49. I paid $10 because I don't know that I'll do this. The discussions seem to be focused on three conference calls. That seems a little sparse. Whether they do other ones or have boards for discussions, I couldn't figure out.
2)They are using the Stanley Lombardo translation. I don't know that I can bring myself to buy it. It's a somewhat slangy translation -- and naturally I'm suspicious of one I've never heard of.
3) They expect the first 8 books read by Jan 9. :-) That's not even two weeks, so I don't know that will possible for me.
But I was curious about the online conference and what it would be like. I was member of a Ulysses reading group on Skype, but it fell apart because of member travel and technical difficulties.
I decided to make my first investment in a Kindle book last night for my newest toy and downloaded Pope's translation of The Iliad. A whole 99 cents! (I had already downloaded a couple of no-charge classics, one of which I have been working on and need to return to the library, so I could start playing and learning and enjoying.) I have several other translations in paperback, so shall go from here.
Lily wrote: "Eman -- I got a used copy today of Eva Brann's book Homeric Moments: Clues to Delight in Reading the Odyssey and the Iliad. Am a bit disappointed to discover how oriented toward The Odyssey rather than The Iliad it is, but will still try to glean some tidbits. (As I recall, she was an instructor you had at St. John's?)"Yes, I have it also, and I agree that it is not as much use for the Iliad as the Odyssey, but it still has some excellent stuff. I think she focuses so heavily on Odysseus because he is the only major character who is prominent in both epics.
Bill wrote: "With regard tor reading Odyssey. 1) I signed up with Reading Odyssey. There are no more "free" places. There are places if you're willing to pay. The "suggested contribution" is $49. I paid $10 b..."
Good for you. I'll be very interested to hear whether you think it's worth it, and to have you share whatever you think useful from it. I decided not to pony up for a paid place because I wasn't sure how valuable it would be (I didn't think of just offering a low amount, and $49 seemed mighty steep for something totally unknown), and because I expect to be pretty busy here anyhow!
But do let us know how it works out for you.
Bill wrote: "2)They are using the Stanley Lombardo translation. I don't know that I can bring myself to buy it. It's a somewhat slangy translation -- and naturally I'm suspicious of one I've never heard of."I think you're right to be dubious. I have the Lombardo Odyssey, but after reading a book or two into it I realized his style was not for me, so never got his Iliad. Plus, I was massively put off by the cover art. What on earth was he thinking?
(In case you don't recognize it from the small image below, it's of apparently WWII troops storming the beach from a landing craft, perhaps taken on D-Day. There is no evidence that the Greeks ever had to storm the beach at Troy, it may have been that they just landed their ships without opposition, and even if there had been a contested landing there is nothing remotely about that in the Iliad, which happens 9 years after the start of the war when, as we hear in I think Book 2 the ships have been there on the beach for quite a while. So why on earth would he choose a modern war image which has nothing to do with any of the events in the Iliad? To me, it's indicative of his overall approach to Homer, which seems to me to be to drag him wholesale into the 20th century.)
Bill wrote: "...I'm curious if anyone knows what classical scholars today are talking about..."Bill -- have you tried a Google advanced search on only .edu domain?
Sometimes interesting stuff can be churned up on that domain.
Eman,I agree, I think the Lombardo translation is one of those trying to "make it relevant" to "us" by using English vernacular, when I suspect that there was only a short period of time when The Iliad or The Odyssey was in a vernacular understood by the ancient Greeks. Right? Homeric Greek is not only different from, say, 5th Century Attic, "standard" classical Greek, but a very large number of the words appear only in Homer. For the most of the Greeks, the language would have been unfamiliar.
I'm also influenced by Finley, The World of Odysseus, which suggests this was an iron age oral poem about the memories of a past Mycenean civilization and mixes a society dimly remembered with contemporary reality. So in fact, it was never entirely familiar, the reality was always an imaginative recreation (which is always true, but this was particularly the case here).
"Reading Odyssey" seems to be trying to engage people who are afraid of the classics and think they need help. It suggests skipping over parts not understood so you keep at it. And yet Homer is probably the least scary of classical authors.
This is why I suspect they have chosen the Lombardo translation.
I appreciate the advice of skipping over if it were applied to Joyce's Ulysses but not Homer's Odyssey or Iliad each of which describes an unfamiliar culture but neither an unfamiliar story or incomprehensible narrative. And there's nothing wrong with a few footnotes.
It's the difficulty of trying to please a very diverse reading group.
It's, in effect, the same problem as "spoilers". Some people want to know nothing because either they are reading for suspense OR more legitimately they want to approach a new text with a clear mind. I'm finding it particularly frustrating with a book I'm finishing with another group.
On the one hand people don't seem interested in what I would consider a "close reading" of individual chapters and on the other there's not much talk of the overall vision.
I on the other hand would prefer the assumption that everyone is rereading the book for at least the second time -- particularly with something as basic as "The Iliad" or "The Odyssey". It is impossible to please us both. :-( I am suspicious of the happy medium. :-)
Lily,Thanks. I'll give it a shot. Of course, half the times the references are to articles to which one needs a subscription to JSTOR or time to go to a library.
The Cambridge Companion to Homer, which I've begun, has lots of references. It addresses the more usual issues like honor, morality, tragedy -- but also has this footnote.
"Ring composiiton, geometric structure, chiastic arrangement, Chinese-box techniques describe the structual analyses of Sheppard (1922), Myres (1932), van Otterlo (1944), Whitman (1958), Stanley (1993), vol 6, 4-14. Heiden (2000c) [sic] examines how parallelism and symmetrical rings reinforce each other. Segal (1971b)elegantly analyzes the secular or magical rituals of the mutilations of corpses."
The last is particularly delicious because 1) it is from the author of Love Story and on the subject of the mutilation of corpses is so rarely discussed these days except with severe moral condemnation.
But that's a lot of reading in a short time and requires serious dedication. And the read is almost upon us!
I would be happier with a year's reading schedule and the opportunity to prepare in advance.
Thanks for the mention! I had a good experience with Reading Odyssey on another read. I'm sorry to see the free slots are full, but hopefully they will continue to post about resources that will be helpful. I last read the Iliad about three years ago and posted some resources as well, although many are the same as your initial post. I do want to recommend listening to it too, whether you can find an audiobook version at your library or read it out loud--even in translation it's a wonderful thing to hear.
Bill wrote: "I agree, I think the Lombardo translation is one of those trying to "make it relevant" to "us" by using English vernacular, when I suspect that there was only a short period of time when The Iliad or The Odyssey was in a vernacular understood by the ancient Greeks. Right? Homeric Greek is not only different from, say, 5th Century Attic, "standard" classical Greek, but a very large number of the words appear only in Homer. For the most of the Greeks, the language would have been unfamiliar."Epic Greek was a poetic dialect. Nobody really ever spoke it as an everyday language, but I would imagine most if not all could understand it. Homer was for the ancient Greeks what scripture is for many people today. This can be seen in Plato -- we just saw it in the Republic, as a matter of fact. Socrates quotes Homer in the original epic dialect, while the rest of the dialogue is of course in Attic, the Athenian dialect. I'd like to think that Homer sounded to 4th or 5th cent Athenians the way Shakespeare or the KJV sounds to us today -- it's not ordinary speech, but it's certainly understandable.
Bill, I know what you mean regarding the JSTOR articles. 1) Sometimes one can get lucky and access the article if you search by the author instead of the article title. 2) With my library card (perhaps yours also), I can log into my library and access all those articles thru "Resources"/EBSCO (I think that's the letters of the database). Nice to read them from home. LOL. Nice to read some of them period.
Three background pieces of information I found made the first two chapters a richer read for me:
Trojans/Horse-Tamers: Greeks/Greave wearing:
"Although horses were important to the peoples spoken of in the Iliad [...] only one ethnic group is described as hippodamoi, "horse-tamers," and that is the Trojans....
More than once the horse-taming Trojans are named alongside a comparable characterization of the Achaioi, euknemides, "well protected by greaves."
Astonishment gripped those who saw her,
The horse-taming Trojans and the well-greaved Achaioi
(Iliad 4.79-80)
Both of these formulaic adjectives carry real historical information. When the Trojans are singled out in this way from the many peoples in the Iliad who prized horses, and when Troy itself, elsewhere in the poem, appears as Ilion of fine foals, it is because the Trojans really did keep horses in large numbers--archaeologists confirm it. [Troy right there at Dardanelles...trading city]
When the Achaioi are distinguished in the Iliad by the leather greaves that protected thier shins, it is because they really used to be a distinctive feature of the armor. Vase paintings and reliefs show that Egyptians and Near Easterners did not wear greaves, but Mycenaean Greeks did, and Mycenaean Greeks undoubtedly correspond to the Achaioi of the Iliad...(wearing of greaves cannot be traced beyond the decline of Mycenaean Greek civilization, soon after 1200 BC.)
Long Hair:
There is another description of the Achaioi, kare komoontes, "growing their hair long," or "long-haired."
Cretan men of the ancient Minoan civilization are sometimes depicted in wall paintings with very long black hair, and Mycenaean men adopted this fashion, to judge by some Mycenaean vase paintings. Once the Minoan culture had disappeared (around 1350 BC)---the phrase kare komoontes might gradually be felt to be appropriated to the Mycenaean Greeks instead, because they kept up the fashion; but again, not after the decline of Mycenaean civilization, soon after 1200 BC" (Rediscovering Homer: Inside the Orgins of the Epic; Andrew Dalby; pp 46-47)
Trojans/Horse-Tamers: Greeks/Greave wearing:
"Although horses were important to the peoples spoken of in the Iliad [...] only one ethnic group is described as hippodamoi, "horse-tamers," and that is the Trojans....
More than once the horse-taming Trojans are named alongside a comparable characterization of the Achaioi, euknemides, "well protected by greaves."
Astonishment gripped those who saw her,
The horse-taming Trojans and the well-greaved Achaioi
(Iliad 4.79-80)
Both of these formulaic adjectives carry real historical information. When the Trojans are singled out in this way from the many peoples in the Iliad who prized horses, and when Troy itself, elsewhere in the poem, appears as Ilion of fine foals, it is because the Trojans really did keep horses in large numbers--archaeologists confirm it. [Troy right there at Dardanelles...trading city]
When the Achaioi are distinguished in the Iliad by the leather greaves that protected thier shins, it is because they really used to be a distinctive feature of the armor. Vase paintings and reliefs show that Egyptians and Near Easterners did not wear greaves, but Mycenaean Greeks did, and Mycenaean Greeks undoubtedly correspond to the Achaioi of the Iliad...(wearing of greaves cannot be traced beyond the decline of Mycenaean Greek civilization, soon after 1200 BC.)
Long Hair:
There is another description of the Achaioi, kare komoontes, "growing their hair long," or "long-haired."
Cretan men of the ancient Minoan civilization are sometimes depicted in wall paintings with very long black hair, and Mycenaean men adopted this fashion, to judge by some Mycenaean vase paintings. Once the Minoan culture had disappeared (around 1350 BC)---the phrase kare komoontes might gradually be felt to be appropriated to the Mycenaean Greeks instead, because they kept up the fashion; but again, not after the decline of Mycenaean civilization, soon after 1200 BC" (Rediscovering Homer: Inside the Orgins of the Epic; Andrew Dalby; pp 46-47)
Bill wrote: "I'm also influenced by Finley, The World of Odysseus, which suggests this was an iron age oral poem about the memories of a past Mycenean civilization and mixes a society dimly remembered with contemporary reality. So in fact, it was never entirely familiar, the reality was always an imaginative recreation (which is always true, but this was particularly the case here)."
But we also must keep in mind that Homer became for the later Greeks the textbook on how a Greek should behave in any situation. Some have called it a Bible for the Greeks. I don't think it's that, because that implies a religious aspect that isn't there. But it's more, perhaps, a combination of what Emily Post and Dr. Spock were to the 40s and 50s -- the place to go to understand how the ideal Greek citizen should, and equally important should not, behave.
Thomas wrote: Epic Greek was a poetic dialect. Nobody really ever spoke it as an everyday language, but I would imagine most if not all could understand it. "This is very much my understanding. It's why I prefer the more classical translations (such as Lattimore) to those trying to contemporarize the language.
I think your comparison of Homer to the later Greeks to Shakespeare and the Bible to the modern English speaker is very apt. It's much the same thing; language which simply sounds more elevated, more noble than common speech.
I was interested to note in the Paris Review interview Lily posted that Fagles specifically says that Lattimore drew to an extent on Shakespeare and that Fagles intentionally avoided any use of Shakespearean language or images.
Adelle wrote: "Three background pieces of information I found made the first two chapters a richer read for me:"Nice comments. The formulaic aspects of the Iliad will become very noticeable as we proceed with the reading. It had a very practical cause, as Milman Parry has noted: first, as you note, these were very accurate descriptions of prominent characteristics of the people involved, second, these formulations had been developed over the years of oral transmission to fit into the specific rhythm and poetic form so that they were reliable phrases to insert when the lines so required, and third, because they were so convenient and rolled easily off the Homeric tongue, they allowed the bard, who we now are quite sure, didn't have the entire poem memorized word for word but adapted as he went along; not only were there phrases there at his tongue-tip, but they were so automatic that they gave him an opportunity to think ahead to the next lines. Even today modern speakers will use formulaic phrases to help organize their speech and sometimes to give them time to gather their thoughts -- things like "another point I would like you to consider" or "moving along," or "to sum up the point I was making," or things of that sort.
Confession time:1. I got into the Odyssey group free.
2. I listened to Lombardo read book 1 last night and quite enjoyed it. I have four or five other translations, too, but they're packed away in boxes while my house is being redecorated.
Laurele,Did you get into the group free in the last two days? I suspect they filled it up and then decided anyone else might as well pay.
You also said "listened to Lombardo" -- if he's a good performer -- and apparently he is -- that will make a difference. The translation was made by a regular performer of the poem whose choice of language was developed, in part, from his performances.
But although the experience of the poem in ancient Greece was oral, I tend to prefer my own performances. :-)
This can create a problem though because what sounds best in performance is not always what reads best. There's not a necessary opposition -- Shakespeare reads great and sounds great -- but there may be.
Eman
I only meant that the world described in the Iliad was never a world familiar to anyone -- and so making the speech sound conventional is a distortion.
While Homeric characters provided models of behavior, I have a hard time thinking the experience of it was like Emily Post or Dr. Seuss. This wasn't the Bible, but the gods in Homer were still worshiped. The Republic begins with Socrates' checking out a religious festival. Classical Athens could almost be described as god-ridden. It wasn't a secular society even if the attitude toward gods was different from contemporary (or "modern" -- from the Renaissance -- attitudes toward the Bible.)
I wonder if Homer wasn't TO SOME EXTENT like the Bible in early New England communities, where it was pretty much the only book read, read frequently, often the only book owned, and so the stories and names were common currency, called upon as analogies. And the Bible is filled with secular stories as well as God and angels directly interfering in the lives of men.
That doesn't mean the experience was exactly like the experience of reading the Bible -- but it wasn't entirely secular either.
I'd suspect that there is no good analogy I think that's true with lots of things in ancient Greek civilization. It just wasn't anything like what we know today. And yet so much of it seems so immediate that we want to appropriate to our own experience.
I remember someone quoting a criticism of Grote's seven-volume history of Greece as making Cleisthnes sound like her majesty's loyal opposition. :-)
What draws me to Ancient Greece is partly, at least, the way it is at times so immediately "us" and at times so thoroughly alien. The quality of its being alien is greater than anything in Shakespeare.
Tom -- what I wonder did the poem sound like to its first readers? Did they have a dialect for poetry that they used for other poems? Or was it just conventional speech turned into metrical speech? It must have been a lot closer to normal speech of whatever speech that was?
I realize that question can't be answered. That's the problem with an oral tradition.
Also -- when you say you imagine all could understand -- do we know that or did it require a certain amount of education -- like reading Shakespeare would today? One thing I know nothing about is the, for example, the education of slaves. Some obviously were well enough educated for business purposes. Whether the recitations of rhetors was for all or only some, I don't know.
Laurele wrote: "Confession time:1. I got into the Odyssey group free.
2. I listened to Lombardo read book 1 last night and quite enjoyed it. ..."
Is this something provided specifically to Reading Odyssey participants, is it a copy you purchased, or is it somewhere online accessible to others?
Bill wrote: "Did they have a dialect for poetry that they used for other poems? Or was it just conventional speech turned into metrical speech? It must have been a lot closer to normal speech of whatever speech that was?I realize that question can't be answered. That's the problem with an oral tradition."
Yes, that is the trouble. What did "Homer" sound like before someone wrote down the lines? Was Homer in fact the person or persons who wrote them down, and the tradition of a blind bard is just a fable? Who knows. What is known from the record is that the language of the Homeric epics was used for the composition of epic poetry hundred of years after Homer, even into the Hellenistic era when a common dialect (Koine) was in use throughout the Aegean. But Greek dialects are not all that different from one another, and one dialect could be understood by speakers of other dialects. The differences between dialects are fairly minor.
Everyman wrote: "Laurele wrote: "Confession time:1. I got into the Odyssey group free.
2. I listened to Lombardo read book 1 last night and quite enjoyed it. ..."
Is this something provided specifically to Read..."
I downloaded it from Audible--the whole book.
Everyman,This is a commercial production. Susan Sarandon does the plot summaries and connecting material.
I downloaded the cheaper abridged edition (to hear Lombardo).
This is not to my taste. The occasionally modern phrases still sound wrong to me, even when spoken by the man who used them in translation. I don't like the way he reads the poem either.
But I am fussy and cranky about oral performance.
For those who want to hear Lombardo read from his Iliad, here's a clip I found. Can't comment on it yet since I just found it and won't have time to listen to it tonight since it's nearing bedtime. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFAjkf...
I just picked up Herbert Jordan's translation, which I really like so far. In his preface he quotes Alexander Pope, from Pope's preface to his own translation: It is certain no literal translation can be just to an excellent original in a superior language: but it is a great mistake to imagine (as many have done) that a rash paraphrase can make amends for this general defect; which is no less in danger to lose the spirit of an ancient, by deviating into the modern manners of expression.
I haven't read Lombardo's translation, but from Bill's comment it sounds like he's "deviating". I like Jordan's terseness. It reads like the Greek, though it isn't quite as literal as Lattimore.
Thomas wrote: "I just picked up Herbert Jordan's translation, which I really like so far. In his preface he quotes Alexander Pope, from Pope's preface to his own translation: It is certain no literal translatio..."
Oh, dear. I really like the first pages I was able to read on Amazon, but do I really need yet another translation of the Iliad? When does one have to say that enough is enough?
Sigh. I fear that lust is overcoming moderation. Is it really true that one can never be too rich or have too many translations of the Iliad? (Or is it rather that buying too many copies of the Iliad prevents one from becoming rich?)
Background Bits (from The Trojan War by Barry Strauss) that I found interesting:
"Twenty years ago, it looked as though Troy was just a small citadel of only about half an acre. Now we know [1988 excavations] that Troy was, in fact, about seventy-five acres in size, a city of gold amid amber fields of wheat. Formerly, it seemed that by 1200 B.C. Troy was a shabby place, well past its prime, but we know now that in 1200 the city was in its heyday" (2)... and held 5,000-7,500 people, which made it a big city in Bronze Age terms and a regional capital" (8).
"hollow ships," "black ships," "beaked ships"
The Achaians had fairly large ships, with hollow interiors for carrying men and supplies. "The most common galley [sailing from] Aulis was probably the penteconter, a fifty-oared ship about ninety feet long, with twenty-five rowers sitting along each side of the hull" (40). And probably 250 men could be carried in a Bronze Age merchant ship.
The hulls of the ships were coated with black pitch.
"a figurehead in the shape of a bird's head" was on the stems of the galleys.
{Note: the design of the galley was so effective that it was still in standard use during Roman times.]
Height: Strauss writes that Agamemnon [and by implication, the other heroes] being a noble, "was likely to be well fed and tall--nearly 6 feet to judge from the skeletons found in the royal graves of Mycenae. This was a great height then, when the average Greek male stood only about five feet five inches" (31).
"Twenty years ago, it looked as though Troy was just a small citadel of only about half an acre. Now we know [1988 excavations] that Troy was, in fact, about seventy-five acres in size, a city of gold amid amber fields of wheat. Formerly, it seemed that by 1200 B.C. Troy was a shabby place, well past its prime, but we know now that in 1200 the city was in its heyday" (2)... and held 5,000-7,500 people, which made it a big city in Bronze Age terms and a regional capital" (8).
"hollow ships," "black ships," "beaked ships"
The Achaians had fairly large ships, with hollow interiors for carrying men and supplies. "The most common galley [sailing from] Aulis was probably the penteconter, a fifty-oared ship about ninety feet long, with twenty-five rowers sitting along each side of the hull" (40). And probably 250 men could be carried in a Bronze Age merchant ship.
The hulls of the ships were coated with black pitch.
"a figurehead in the shape of a bird's head" was on the stems of the galleys.
{Note: the design of the galley was so effective that it was still in standard use during Roman times.]
Height: Strauss writes that Agamemnon [and by implication, the other heroes] being a noble, "was likely to be well fed and tall--nearly 6 feet to judge from the skeletons found in the royal graves of Mycenae. This was a great height then, when the average Greek male stood only about five feet five inches" (31).
Adelle wrote: ""Twenty years ago, it looked as though Troy was just a small citadel of only about half an acre. Now we know [1988 excavations] that Troy was, in fact, about seventy-five acres in size, a city of gold amid amber fields of wheat."And let's not forget that from perhaps 1,000 AD to the middle of the 19th century, there was a fairly strong scholarly view that the Trojan War was a myth, that there never was a real Troy, or if there was one that it was a little hamlet where an unimportant battle had taken place, that Homer had cobbled together a story out of bits of minor battles from hither and yon and stitched them into this great war story.
How much of the Iliad is factually true we will never know. But it seems pretty clear now that as you say, there was a large and prosperous city of Troy which was sacked and burned by Greek forces.
Whether there ever was a Helen is still a matter of probably unresolvable debate. But in my own view, I don't in the least care. It's a great story based in historical fact and quite accurately presenting much historical information of the time (we'll get into that when the discussion starts for real), and a real joy to read and talk about.
Adelle wrote: "Background Bits (from The Trojan War by Barry Strauss) that I found interesting:""hollow ships," "black ships," "beaked ships" ..."
Here's a bit more on the Homeric ship:
From Harry Thurston Peck. Harpers Dictionary of Classical Antiquities. New York. Harper and Brothers. 1898.:
The Homeric ship or galley had a sharp black hull, but was not as yet provided with a ram. The keel (τρόπις) was probably first laid upon short upright banks (δρύοχοι) of timber, laid level at suitable intervals. From the keel sprang the stem-post (στεῖρα), carried upward to a good height, as was also the stern-post. The sides (τοῖχοι) were held together by the thwarts (ζύγα), which formed the seats for the oarsmen. At the bow was a raised platform or deck (ἴκρια πρώρης), on which stood the fighting men of the ship; and there was a similar deck at the stern, on which the arms were kept, and under which there was room for stowage. The length of the fifty-oared galley is calculated to have been about 90 to 100 feet from stem to stern, with a breadth amidships of 10 to 12 feet. The galley was propelled by oars and sails together, the mast (ἱστός) being raised or lowered as stated above. When raised it was held in a sort of box (μεσόδμη), and kept in its place by forestays (πρότονοι). When lowered it rested on a sort of crutch (ἱστοδόκη). There was also a backstay (ἐπίτονος). The sail was hoisted on a yard (ἐπίκριον) having braces (ὑπέραι) and halyards (κάλοι). The sails were square in shape and white in colour. The ropes were of thong; but larger cables (ὅπλα) were made of byblus (Odyss. xxii. 391), occasionally of hemp or rushes (σπάρτα). The ship was steered by paddles (πηδάλια). The oars (ἐρετμά) were of fir-wood, the parts being the handle (κώπη) and blade (πηδόν). The oars were fastened to thowls (σκαλμοί) by thongs, and when not in use were drawn in, leaving the blade projecting. The master of the ship (κυβερνήτης) had his place on the forward deck. At times a long pole for pushing (κοντός) was used as an instrument of propulsion.
Up to 118 oarsmen according to Homer.
cite: http://www.mlahanas.de/Greeks/Ships/S...
Everyman wrote: "(we'll get into that when the discussion starts for real), ..."
Seeing as one of my goals for the coming year is to speak up and ask for clarification when confronted with what seems ambiguous to me... :)... are you asking me to wait for the discussion to begin?
I had thought I was judiciously posting only what would enhance the understanding of some of the terms of the reading without subjectively influencing anyone's interpretations.
But I can, of course, hold off until the 4th. Good either way :)
Seeing as one of my goals for the coming year is to speak up and ask for clarification when confronted with what seems ambiguous to me... :)... are you asking me to wait for the discussion to begin?
I had thought I was judiciously posting only what would enhance the understanding of some of the terms of the reading without subjectively influencing anyone's interpretations.
But I can, of course, hold off until the 4th. Good either way :)
Adelle wrote: "Seeing as one of my goals for the coming year is to speak up and ask for clarification when confronted with what seems ambiguous to me... :)... are you asking me to wait for the discussion to begin? "General background information is fine -- your background bits on the site of Troy, the nature of Greek ships, and the like are helpful background. Keep them coming.
My comment on waiting to discuss Pope's translation further was because I would have had to quote specific passages from the text and compare them with other translations, and that would have gotten us specifically into the text, which should wait for the textual sections involved to be posted.
Does this answer your concern?
A few comments from Pope's introduction to his translation, which don't discuss specific events in the poem:Our author’s work is a wild paradise, where, if we cannot see all the beauties so distinctly as in an ordered garden, it is only because the number of them is infinitely greater. It is like a copious nursery, which contains the seeds and first productions of every kind, out of which those who followed him have but selected some particular plants, each according to his fancy, to cultivate and beautify.
...
It is to the strength of this amazing invention we are to attribute that unequalled fire and rapture which is so forcible in Homer, that no man of a true poetical spirit is master of himself while he reads him. What he writes is of the most animated nature imaginable; every thing moves, every thing lives, and is put in action. If a council be called, or a battle fought, you are not coldly informed of what was said or done as from a third person; the reader is hurried out of himself by the force of the poet’s imagination, and turns in one place to a hearer, in another to a spectator.
Everyman wrote: "Adelle wrote: "Seeing as one of my goals for the coming year is to speak up and ask for clarification when confronted with what seems ambiguous to me... :)... are you asking me to wait for the disc..."
Perfectly clear. Thanks for clarify for me!
Perfectly clear. Thanks for clarify for me!
I have been skimming Paideia: The Ideals of Greek Culture by Werner Jaeger recently and wanted to raise one of his points before the start of the read. In this survey of Greek culture, Jaeger looks at the ideals of the Greeks and the way those ideals were taught and transmitted. It’s easy to say the Iliad was meant to educate as well as entertain, but what instruction was the Iliad meant to provide?
I think you need to be careful here. I don't know that we can understand motives as to why it was created -- who knows what either Homer -- or "Homer" -- intended.The question is how it was used in education. Everyman suggested it was used as models of behavior, how one should behave and how one shouldn't. Or course in works like the Homeric epics, how one interprets and values any particular behaviour is up for grabs.
Thanks for the clarification Bill...that's what I meant but didn't make clear. In addition to the aspests of behavior, such as valor, pride, and a sense of duty, it's also fun to note the underlying tension between the models presented by varying men and gods.
Dwight wrote: "Thanks for the clarification Bill...that's what I meant but didn't make clear. In addition to the aspects of behavior, such as valor, pride, and a sense of duty, it's also fun to note the underlyin..."Maybe it is what you mean by "underlying tension between the models...", but I am also struck by the tension (and chaos) as pride collides among these men and gods (and goddesses?).
I have two translations, the W.H.D Rouse that was my father's and an e book download credited to Edward Earl of Derby.If I get completely lost or confused between the two, I'll look into one of the other translations.
Juliette wrote: "I have two translations, the W.H.D Rouse that was my father's and an e book download credited to Edward Earl of Derby.If I get completely lost or confused between the two, I'll look into one of t..."
Both are credible translations; I would suggest you try the Rouse first.
Dwight wrote: "It’s easy to say the Iliad was meant to educate as well as entertain, but what instruction was the Iliad meant to provide? "This is a great question, in part because the Iliad and Odyssey were an integral part of ancient Greek culture. In the Histories, Herodotus says that Homer and Hesiod explained the origin of the gods, described them, and defined their "skills". From later texts we can see that Homer was at times considered a theological authority, an ethical authority, and even a philosophical authority -- perhaps not as strong an authority as the scriptures of monotheistic religions, but an authority nonetheless. As a result, the stories beg to be interpreted, because for the ancient Greeks they were more than just entertainment. They showed the Greeks who they were and why they were better than the "barbarians". In my opinion, thinking about how the Iliad instructs or fails to instruct is an excellent way to approach the text.
Thomas wrote: "In my opinion, thinking about how the Iliad instructs or fails to instruct is an excellent way to approach the text. "Excellent point.
I do suggest that we take this approach on two levels. First, to the best extent we can understand the ancient Greek culture and way of thinking, how did it instruct or fail to instruct that culture. Second, how does it speak to us today and what can we take from it to make our own lives better.
Classics and the Western Canon
Books mentioned in this topic
Where Shall Wisdom Be Found? (other topics)Soldier's Heart: Reading Literature Through Peace and War at West Point (other topics)
Achilles in Vietnam: Combat Trauma and the Undoing of Character (other topics)
Iliad (other topics)
Homeric Moments: Clues to Delight in Reading the Odyssey and the Iliad (other topics)
More...
The Butler translation from Perseus:
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/t...
The Murray translation, also from Perseus:
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/t...
Those are both prose translations, but have the benefit of some notes and of line numbers for finding passages being quoted. They also provide the Greek text for the benefit of Thomas and anybody else who reads Greek!
Here's the famous Pope translation. Bernard Knox, in his introduction to Fagles's translation calls it "the finest ever made." [pg 7] (Lest you think it a bit odd to give such effusive praise of a competing translation when writing an introduction to a new translation, so do I.) A recent New Yorker article on the latest sort-of translation of the Iliad also called Pope's the best translation ever made. Personally, I find it a bit hard to read, but that's just me. Anyhow, here it is to try; maybe it's right for you.
http://ebooks.adelaide.edu.au/h/homer...
Ian Johnston is a professor at Malaspina University-College in British Columbia who has posted many of his own contemporary translations of classic works on the Internet. Here is his translation of the Iliad in what he calls "a modern English poetic idiom." He also provides some supplemental material, such as a list of speeches, list of deaths, and glossary and index. I find this translation easy to cut and paste from, but of course you're free to quote from any edition you choose.
http://records.viu.ca/~johnstoi/homer...
There are other translations on the Internet. Here's a page listing some of them.
http://onlinebooks.library.upenn.edu/...
Johnston also has a list of translations on his Iliad page, with links to many of them.
So everybody who doesn't own and doesn't want to buy a copy, or who wants to try several translations before buying a dead tree copy, should be able to find at least one translation on line to suit their preferences.