Classics and the Western Canon discussion
Discussion - Homer, The Iliad
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Iliad Resources
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Patrice wrote: "it is well worth another read."Indeed it is. One of the things Vandiver says in her course is that though she has read it well over a dozen times, in both Greek and in translation, every time she finds valuable things in it she had never noticed before.
That, for me, is the essence of a great book.
Everyman wrote: "...That, for me, is the essence of a great book. ..."But there are so many great books! What are the criteria by which we decide which ones to revisit and revisit? (How do we stay clear of our own prejudices?)
Thomas wrote: Your second level reminds me of a book I read years ago that shows how relevant the Iliad is even today -- Achilles in Vietnam: Combat Trauma and the Undoing of Character. A fascinating read. "Thanks for this tip Thomas. Putting it on my to-read list. Looks very interesting.
Lily wrote: " I am also struck by the tension (and chaos) as pride collides among these men and gods (and goddesses?)Me too, Lily. I hope we'll get to this in the opening discussion.
Erika wrote: "...Thanks for this tip Thomas. Putting it on my to-read list. Looks very interesting...."I quite agree, although it will probably stay on my "would like to read" list if I approach being realistic. :-(
I have browsed (and own) Elizabeth Samet's Soldier's Heart: Reading Literature Through Peace and War at West Point the last time I spent time with The Iliad. Although her list of references doesn't lend itself to easy checking, a quick perusal just now did not find a reference to Achilles in Vietnam.
Lily wrote: "it will probably stay on my "would like to read" list if I approach being realistic. ."Yes, Lily, there is that silly, niggling realism thing. I have the same problem....and you've just added another one for my list! ; )
Well, my particular interest will always be how it functions as literature and creates its literary effects. Still...what I was struck with this time around was... ;-)
Patrice wrote: "...Whichever book that gets voted on in this group! ..."A wee bit limiting, don't you think?
Patrice wrote: Whichever book that gets voted on in this group!
LOL...Didn't Coors beer advertise itself "It's the water....and alot more!" ???
I suspect that's what you're getting at: It's the book...and alot more, ie, the discussion here.
That's why I'm here periodically. I get so much more out of the book when it's being discussed here.
LOL...Didn't Coors beer advertise itself "It's the water....and alot more!" ???
I suspect that's what you're getting at: It's the book...and alot more, ie, the discussion here.
That's why I'm here periodically. I get so much more out of the book when it's being discussed here.
Lily wrote: "Patrice wrote: "...Whichever book that gets voted on in this group! ..."A wee bit limiting, don't you think?"
Democracy! Arrrghh!
The Great Courses had suggested Susan Woodford's Trojan War in Art, which isn't available online. However, I did find this: http://www.philipresheph.com/demodoko...
What an intriging thought:
From the Great Courses:
"There is no absolute agreement about how long after the alphabet's introduction the epics were written down.
1. Most scholars think that there must have been a lapse of several decades, at least, between the introduction of the alphabet and the transcription of the Homeric epics.
2. A few scholars think, on the contrary, that the alphabet was adapted to the Greek language specifically in order to transcribe these epics."
From the Great Courses:
"There is no absolute agreement about how long after the alphabet's introduction the epics were written down.
1. Most scholars think that there must have been a lapse of several decades, at least, between the introduction of the alphabet and the transcription of the Homeric epics.
2. A few scholars think, on the contrary, that the alphabet was adapted to the Greek language specifically in order to transcribe these epics."
Adelle wrote: "The Great Courses had suggested Susan Woodford's Trojan War in Art, which isn't available online. However, I did find this: http://www.philipresheph.com/demodoko..."Great collection! Thanks, Adelle.
I presume everyone here is familiar with the Perseus Project at Tufts:
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/
Patrice wrote: "Adelle wrote: "The Great Courses had suggested Susan Woodford's Trojan War in Art, which isn't available online. However, I did find this: http://www.philipresheph.com/demodoko..."
OMG!..."
Links! I love them on the interent. I love them in real life. Too cool.
OMG!..."
Links! I love them on the interent. I love them in real life. Too cool.
Lily wrote: ".I presume everyone here is familiar with the Perseus Project at Tufts:
."
"Dr. Livingstone, I presume." Smile :)...No, not familiar, but it looks like an WONderful resource. I shall do a little browsing there this pm. And thank you for the link.
."
"Dr. Livingstone, I presume." Smile :)...No, not familiar, but it looks like an WONderful resource. I shall do a little browsing there this pm. And thank you for the link.
Adelle wrote: "'Dr. Livingstone, I presume.' Smile :)...No, not familiar, but it looks like an WONderful resource. I..."LOL! Enjoy! I also like the series here:
http://www.theoi.com/
The Theoi Project: Greek Mythology was created and is edited by Aaron J. Atsma, Auckland, New Zealand.
Lily wrote: "Patrice wrote: "[responding to post "But there are so many great books! What are the criteria by which we decide which ones to revisit and revisit? } ...Whichever book that gets voted on in this group! ..."A wee bit limiting, don't you think?"
True. We have discussed before what makes a "great book" with no consensus (surprise, surprise!). But thee is fairly broad agreement on many of the books that are at the heart of the Western Canon. I would hope that any book we read here is one of those which is worth rereading (in part because almost any book we choose will have been read by some of the participants, and if it's not worth rereading they won't join the discussion, which would be a big loss), but there are also a number of books and series which intend to include only "great books"; I think of Fadiman's Lifetime Reading Plan, Bloom's The Western Canon, the Britannica "Great Books" series and their "Gateway to the Great Books," the Harvard Classics, and the Harvard Classics Shelf of Fiction and many others.
Another resource is to look at the reading lists of colleges and college programs which focus on the great books -- St. John's College (Annapolis and Santa Fe), St. Mary's College, Columbia University's Great Books course, and many others.
And in the end, probably the most successful way of identifying those books which are (or may for you be) worth rereading is to ask a number of people who have read widely in these books, realizing that what for them is a book worth re-reading may not be for you.
And as a practical matter, I think the bookshelf of this group is a pretty fair listing of books to seriously consider even if they don't get voted in as group reads!
Adelle wrote: "The Great Courses had suggested Susan Woodford's Trojan War in Art, which isn't available online. However, I did find this: http://www.philipresheph.com/demodoko..."Neat resource! Great find.
Patrice wrote: "Thanks so much for the link Adelle. My library did not have it so we ordered it using your link. The library did have her Introduction to Greek Art which is on my nightstand right now, thanks to ..."
That still strikes me as such a cool story! So "It's a Small, Small World We Live In." That you would have actually taken her class.
That still strikes me as such a cool story! So "It's a Small, Small World We Live In." That you would have actually taken her class.
Not a Resource, not Background. Just ... nice.
From Shelley's Defence of Poetry
"The poems of Homer and his contemporaries were the delight of infant Greece; they were the elements of that social system which is the column upon which all succeeding civilization has reposed. Homer embodied the ideal perfection of his age in human character; nor can we doubt that those who read his verses were awakened to an ambition of becoming like to Achilles, Hector, and Ulysses:
the truth and beauty of friendship, patriotism, and persevering devotion to an object, were unveiled to the depths in these immortal creations: the sentiments of the auditors must have been refined and enlarged by a sympathy with such great and lovely impersonations, until from admiring they imitated, and from imitation they identified themselves with the objects of their admiration.
Nor let it be objected that these characters are remote from moral perfection, and that they can by no means be considered as edifying patterns for general imitation. Every epoch, under names more or less specious, has deified its peculiar errors; Revenge is the naked idol of the worship of a semi-barbarous age: and Self-deceit is the veiled image of unknown evil, before which luxury and satiety lie prostrate.
But a poet considers the vices of his contemporaries as the temporary dress in which his creations must be arrayed, and which cover without concealing the eternal proportions of their beauty. An epic or dramatic personage is understood to wear them around his soul, as he may the ancient armor or the modern uniform around his body; whilst it is easy to conceive a dress more graceful than either.
The beauty of the internal nature cannot be so far concealed by its accidental vesture, but that the spirit of its form shall communicate itself to the very disguise, and indicate the shape it hides from the manner in which it is worn. A majestic form and graceful motions will express themselves through the most barbarous and tasteless costume.
Few poets of the highest class have chosen to exhibit the beauty of their conceptions in its naked truth and splendor; and it is doubtful whether the alloy of costume, habit, etc., be not necessary to temper this planetary music for mortal ears."
http://www.bartleby.com/27/23.html
From Shelley's Defence of Poetry
"The poems of Homer and his contemporaries were the delight of infant Greece; they were the elements of that social system which is the column upon which all succeeding civilization has reposed. Homer embodied the ideal perfection of his age in human character; nor can we doubt that those who read his verses were awakened to an ambition of becoming like to Achilles, Hector, and Ulysses:
the truth and beauty of friendship, patriotism, and persevering devotion to an object, were unveiled to the depths in these immortal creations: the sentiments of the auditors must have been refined and enlarged by a sympathy with such great and lovely impersonations, until from admiring they imitated, and from imitation they identified themselves with the objects of their admiration.
Nor let it be objected that these characters are remote from moral perfection, and that they can by no means be considered as edifying patterns for general imitation. Every epoch, under names more or less specious, has deified its peculiar errors; Revenge is the naked idol of the worship of a semi-barbarous age: and Self-deceit is the veiled image of unknown evil, before which luxury and satiety lie prostrate.
But a poet considers the vices of his contemporaries as the temporary dress in which his creations must be arrayed, and which cover without concealing the eternal proportions of their beauty. An epic or dramatic personage is understood to wear them around his soul, as he may the ancient armor or the modern uniform around his body; whilst it is easy to conceive a dress more graceful than either.
The beauty of the internal nature cannot be so far concealed by its accidental vesture, but that the spirit of its form shall communicate itself to the very disguise, and indicate the shape it hides from the manner in which it is worn. A majestic form and graceful motions will express themselves through the most barbarous and tasteless costume.
Few poets of the highest class have chosen to exhibit the beauty of their conceptions in its naked truth and splendor; and it is doubtful whether the alloy of costume, habit, etc., be not necessary to temper this planetary music for mortal ears."
http://www.bartleby.com/27/23.html
Adelle wrote: "Not a Resource, not Background. Just ... nice.From Shelley's Defence of Poetry
"The poems of Homer and his contemporaries were the delight of infant Greece; they were the elements of that socia..."
Thanks, Adelle; I like that!
I'm glad. Bloom had quoted it in a book called Where Does Wisdom Come from? Mmm. Something along those lines ...
He was writing about Homer (which we're reading) and Plato's admonition to ban Homer (in the Republic, which we just read)
I only read the one chapter.
Where Shall Wisdom Be Found?
He was writing about Homer (which we're reading) and Plato's admonition to ban Homer (in the Republic, which we just read)
I only read the one chapter.
Where Shall Wisdom Be Found?
Adelle wrote: "Not a Resource, not Background. Just ... nice.From Shelley's Defence of Poetry
"The poems of Homer and his contemporaries were the delight of infant Greece; they were the elements of that socia..."
Very nice! Thank you Adelle!
Laurele wrote: "Thanks, Adelle; I like that!"
Ditto. Thanks!
Now, if we had been reading The Iliad: Gift Horsehttp://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/a...
'Gift Horse' the latest Fourth Plinth Installation in London's Trafalgar Square by German Artist Hans Haacke Picture: Heathcliff O'Malley/The Telegraph
Lily wrote: "Now, if we had been reading The Iliad: Gift Horsehttp://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/a...
'Gift Horse' the latest Fourth Plinth Installation in London's ..."
Not much protection for the soldiers hiding inside, though.
(And, of course, the horse never appears in the Iliad, but we'll overlook that. [g])
Everyman wrote: "(And, of course, the horse never appears in the Iliad, but we'll overlook that. [g]) ..."I thought about that, but still figured this was a better spot than the tea shop. :-(
David wrote: "There is a horse in the Aeneid, though."Dave -- you can certainly fault my choice. I just read The Iliad more closely than The Aeneid, and tend to associate it with Troy; The Aeneid, with Italy. So Trojan horse... Although I don't believe I've watched any of them, don't many films also conflate the Achilles and Trojan horse stories?
Lily wrote: "David wrote: "There is a horse in the Aeneid, though."Dave -- you can certainly fault my choice. I just read The Iliad more closely than The Aeneid, and tend to associate it with Troy; The Aeneid..."
Thé horse slows un in the Odyssey.
Classics and the Western Canon
Books mentioned in this topic
Where Shall Wisdom Be Found? (other topics)Soldier's Heart: Reading Literature Through Peace and War at West Point (other topics)
Achilles in Vietnam: Combat Trauma and the Undoing of Character (other topics)
Iliad (other topics)
Homeric Moments: Clues to Delight in Reading the Odyssey and the Iliad (other topics)
More...
I do suggest that we take this approach on two levels. First, to the best extent we can understand the ancient Greek culture and way of thinking, how did it instruct or fail to instruct that culture. Second, how does it speak to us today and what can we take from it to make our own lives better. "
Your second level reminds me of a book I read years ago that shows how relevant the Iliad is even today -- Achilles in Vietnam: Combat Trauma and the Undoing of Character. A fascinating read.