The Misconception of Editing

[Sarah]

Georgina, what is a Lets Type system? I noticed someone asked you but you might've missed that reply in the flurry of other conversation. I'm still curious :-)

[[deleted user]]

Sarah, the Webbiegrrl Writer wrote: "Georgina, what is a Lets Type system? I noticed someone asked you but you might've missed that reply in the flurry of other conversation. I'm still curious :-)"

It's basically a barter system. 'Local Exchange Trading System'. Here's a wiki article on it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Local_ex...

So in our case as writers, beta readers, editors, cover artists etc, they'd be an exchange of services, where each service has pre-allocated value. It's kind of like a pool of resources that can be traded, but with that defined value (the group sets the value together) it takes away any issues that can arise with individual cases of swapping services.

But I suppose we are already doing that now, with the 'Beta Reader' thread and in the 'Need an Editor' thread?

[Chris]

Phil wrote: "I realized that there is a substantial cost in typesetting and otherwise preparing a book for publication, (unless you are solely e-publishing) that would probably need to be duplicated for what ought to be minor alterations. "

This may be true with traditional publishers, but it is not true with print on demand (and Publish America is not a traditional publisher, they are a self-publishing house with very bad terms). If you do your POD through Amazon's CreateSpace, you can upload a new interior PDF at anytime for free. Of course, you have to make the changes yourself or hire someone to do so, but there is no charge or delay from CreateSpace.

I just made some minor changes to my latest romantic suspense, Whispers in the Dark, because I finally heard back from my archaeologist fact checker who had some comments on terminology. I made the changes in my laid-out Word version, uploaded it, and had it republished within 12 hours.

Justin, there is nothing "standard" about Publish America's contract. They are a scam house. The best you can do is never work with them again -- and try to get out of your current contract if possible.

Chris Eboch, writing romantic suspense as Kris Bock
Kris Bock

[Cambria]

Sarah, the Webbiegrrl Writer wrote: "Georgina wrote: "Cambria has started the thread for Beta Readers!

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/7..."

Thank you for starting this thread, Cambria!"

Sure thing Sarah!!

[Phil]

Chris wrote: "Phil wrote: "I realized that there is a substantial cost in typesetting and otherwise preparing a book for publication, (unless you are solely e-publishing) that would probably need to be duplicate..."

Thanks for that clarification, Chris!

[Sarah]

Chris wrote:"If you do your POD through Amazon's CreateSpace, you can upload a new interior PDF at anytime for free. [...] I just made some minor changes [...] in my laid-out Word version, uploaded it, and had it republished within 12 hours."

Chris, I'm going to attempt CreateSpace for the first time in a month or two--as soon as I get the eBook released I'll start reformatting an interior doc for CreateSpace. Can I upload a Word file or should it really be a PDF? I can do either one but you mention both here so I wanted to ask for clarification.

And like Phil said, thanks for these comments. First-hand remarks on CreateSpace are helpful to the rest of us who aren't experts there (yet)!

-sry

[Barbara]

Sarah, the Webbiegrrl Writer wrote: "Chris wrote:"If you do your POD through Amazon's CreateSpace, you can upload a new interior PDF at anytime for free. [...] I just made some minor changes [...] in my laid-out Word version, uploaded..."

Sarah, I still use Lulu because it's international and handles European formats, but you can find infos on how to format for create space here:
http://selfpubauthors.wordpress.com/2...
and
http://selfpubauthors.wordpress.com/2...
*waves at author of posts, friend Jo Naylor*

[Lee]

Phil wrote: "Justin wrote: "You guys gotta hear this..For those who dont know my Publishing company is PublishAmerica( yes I know already save the they suck and will scam you comments) anyways, I went over my b..."

Phil, I agree with nearly everything you've posted in this thread, but - I think you're missing something in referring to the cost of typesetting. No one sets type anymore. You, the author, provide the printer with the final electronic text. There is no extra cost to the printer if you bring out a second corrected edition. You do the work. I did this with the print version (and eBook versions) of my first novel. Despite the efforts of an independent editor, re-editing by me and proofreading by yet another person, a shocking number of keystroke errors (31) were in the published first edition. When these were brought to my attention, the book was proofread again. I revised it and issued a second edition. The only additional cost to anyone was the few dollars I paid for the proof copy of the second edition print version.

Again, I agree the author cannot re-edit too much, and independent editors and proofreaders are a must.

[Justin]

I re-wrote my book so I could convert it through Calibre( they don't allow it but I'm doing it anyways) and while re writing my book I came across eight errors out of the 50 poems, yeah that's not much and I could let it slide but I mean knowing my book is perfect editing wise makes me happy but..they said text fixing for erroes would cost me $250! I asked if they could make an exception but if not then ill leave it as is..

[Chris]

One thing I do as a (paid) editor is look at the big picture in a way that most authors have trouble doing with their own work, and most readers don't know how to do. I'm looking at the entire character arc, plot arc, etc., not just the individual pieces. I think this is important especially for strong writers -- if the words flow smoothly, it's easy to miss those bigger questions that can make the book stronger.

For example, in different projects I've suggested cutting five of the first 10 chapters to get to the main action sooner; shortening the timeframe from a full school year to a few months for faster pacing and tension; turning a 50,000-word children's novel into a trilogy in order to greatly expand each section; and shifting some character traits to make the co-protagonists more balanced.

You won't get this kind of feedback from most beta readers or critique groups, as people tend to focus on more superficial flaws. You also won't get this kind of feedback from an editor at a traditional publisher, in general, because they don't have the time to work with an author that way. (Unless you've already published with them very successfully.)

(This post really was supposed to be about editing styles, not promoting my own work, but you can see rates and recommendations at http://www.chriseboch.com/newsletter.htm)

And as far as the editing at traditional publishers goes, I've just been reading "Rejection, Romance & Royalties" by Laura Resnick, which is a hilarious -- and often shocking and depressing -- look at the traditional publishing world from her own experiences and those of other traditionally published authors.

In one essay she mentions many of the things that can go wrong with your book. These include having your name misspelled on the title page (which was not included in the galleys), having your book released with someone else's name and title, having a portion of another book inserted into yours (including a time when pages from Penthouse Magazine got inserted into a Disney book), books published with missing pages or even a missing last chapter, pages out of order, the editor randomly cutting 10,000 words from a book after proofreading because the publishing house changed their length guidelines at the last minute, somehow accidentally publishing an earlier draft from before copyediting, and an editor changing a teenage boy character into a raccoon without the author's permission. (Note -- this was not a children's picture book but rather a romance novel where the hero mentored a teenage boy.)

Some of these problems probably came from the printer rather than the publisher. And some explain why traditionally published books occasionally have so many errors.

Anyway, that book is very entertaining, and if you've decided to go indie, it won't cause you any regrets.

[Sarah]

Barbara wrote:"Sarah, I still use Lulu because it's international and handles European formats, but you can find infos on how to format for create space here[...]"

Thanks for the links, Barb!

Chris wrote "[stuff about cutting things down to "tighten" an author's work] You won't get this kind of feedback from most beta readers or critique groups, as people tend to focus on more superficial flaws."

Although I'm not necessarily sold on your services, Chris, or your ability to improve a work (as opposed to just making it shorter) and I suspect you make work you edit more like YOU want it to be rather than necessarily how the author intended, I have to say I'm 110% on board with this last remark about the tendency of most to focus on superficial flaws.

That's where and why I coined the term "wordsmithing" - the polishing of words without actually changing the real substance of anything at all. So many authors who try to edit their own work end up wordsmithing and don't realize this is NOT editing. They actually spin their wheels, think they have a better product and then are dismayed when it still meets with comments like "You need to edit this to tighten it up a bit."

Editing is not even merely cutting to change pacing, which is what you're suggesting with the remarks you make here. Even if the goal is to edit so as to speed up the pacing, merely cutting material won't do it. That might be part of it, but that's, by far, not all of what needs to be done to affect pacing.

The pacing, tone (voice or diction) and smoothness of the plot (how connected the dots are or are not) as well as the specific style of the writer are all aspects that have to be considered by editing choices--because they will all be affected, one way or another. Simply being able to "write in another person's voice" (which I learned to do 30 years ago as a secretary composing my boss's documents) is not enough to edit someone else's work.

Editing's a lot more involved and I'm severely straddling the fence as to whether or not an author can do it herself to her own work (I'll be sexist in reverse and not use King's English for a moment ;-)

Most Indie Authors simply cannot change gears or mindsets and attack their project objectively. Most authors--indie or otherwise--get so damned attached to tiny little details, it's more than merely getting lost in the forest for the sake of the trees. They can get fixated. They can actually ruin their own best work by getting so fixated they deliberately destroy something great so as to highlight something....only a mother could love (so to speak)

-sry

[[deleted user]]

Sarah, the Webbiegrrl Writer wrote: "Barbara wrote:"Sarah, I still use Lulu because it's international and handles European formats, but you can find infos on how to format for create space here[...]"

Thanks for the links, Barb!

Chr..."

Yep, falling in love with your own prose.

'They can actually ruin their own best work by getting so fixated they deliberately destroy something great so as to highlight something....only a mother could love (so to speak)'

I love this line.

[Sarah]

Georgina wrote: "Yep, falling in love with your own prose.

'They can actually ruin their own best work by getting so fixated they deliberately destroy something great so as to highlight something....only a mother could love (so to speak)'

I love this line. "

Thanks xD I did say it (coin the words myself) but it actually stems from a classic article which I first read in 1995 when it came out on the SFWA site, titled Murder Your Darlings . Even 15+ years later, still worth a read :)

@Chris - by the way, I think the "list" at the end of Murder Your Darlings of things/ways to trim is probably what you mean or were talking about when you said your services include tightening, etc. If I'm wrong and you do a different kind of activity, I'd love to hear about it. I definitely don't have time to dig through your site's weekly additions to this subject. I did check your site when the thread first started (and I met with a few surprises) but you've accumulated a massive amount of content. That's good. You're monetizing your content so that's the point ;-) Good job!

-sry

[Sarah]

Just because this is too funny not to share, from another article on the SFWA site discussing editing and/or writing mistakes which are common:

Characters’ names, physical characteristics, or gender changing in midstory (not by marriage or witness-protection program or hairdresser or plastic surgeon or sex-change clinic); dead characters reappearing (not by cloning or reanimation or coroner’s error); unrelated secondary characters having the same first or last name.

Ahhh, the fun and joy of writing in the SF/F genre :) I love the gender-changing (...not by witness-protection or hairdresser...) the most though "...dead characters reappearing (not by cloning..." comes a close second!

[[deleted user]]

Sarah, the Webbiegrrl Writer wrote: "Just because this is too funny not to share, from another article on the SFWA site discussing editing and/or writing mistakes which are common:

Characters’ names, physical characteristics, or gend..."

I had a character (in a very, very, early draft) that rode a palomino palfrey, that miraculously changed into a chestnut mare by the closing chapters...

[Barbara]

Sarah, the Webbiegrrl Writer wrote: "Just because this is too funny not to share, from another article on the SFWA site discussing editing and/or writing mistakes which are common:

Characters’ names, physical characteristics, or gend..."

I have found dead characters reappearing in fantasy... which pissed me off about the stupid author (AND editor, it was trad pubbed!!!) that didn't catch the mistake! ;-)
And when the author doesn't know his characters and writes one name for another? grrrrrrr!!! I might do it too, but I catch it when I re-read the story... and if I don't, editors and betas do. Makes me wonder how those authors published their works... straight out of their hard drive?

[Sarah]

Georgina wrote: "I had a character (in a very, very, early draft) that rode a palomino palfrey, that miraculously changed into a chestnut mare by the closing chapters."

Was the story set in the Emerald City of Oz? Because if it was you could just say it was the Horse of a Different Color (hahahaha) Someone had to say it!!

Barb, I cannot FATHOM changing the name of a character. I mean are they really THAT minor you don't even know their name? If so, they are not a character; they're a walk-on and just the type to be "combined" with another character.

My SciFi series has a LOT of characters and I had someone ask me once if I could "combine" a few of the characters, which suggestion I thought was beyond absurd. I guess if you don't actually develop a name into a character, dropping the name and giving the action/scene/walk on behavior to another character who HAS been named makes sense. My characters are all named and given depth so no, I cannot "combine" them with someone else. They have a past, present and future. It's hard enough to combine two human lives in reality. Even more ridiculously in fiction.

And confusing the names is inexcusable. That's why G*d created the Character Map. Any AuthorGod who does not use one better not have more than two characters. Three and up, you should be mapping your characters out. It forces you to give them depth, too so it's a win/win

-sry

[Barbara]

I use a virtual cast, so at least I don't get confused by their looks - I won't describe someone that looks like Keanu Reeves in my mind like someone that looks like Brad Pitt, know what I mean? That's why I don't understand authors who get physical details wrong. Even when I didn't have virtual casts (of celebs or friends or whatever), I still could picture the different characters and not confuse their looks! ;-)
And when you're writing fast, you might write X instead of Y, but when you re-read, you normally catch the error. Still, some authors don't and have the wrong character say or do the wrong thing (or come back from death without explanation)...
Did we mention the beauty of diversity? Ah, well, it was in another topic...! ;-)
p.s. a couple of posts on editing: costs (http://bloodredpencil.blogspot.com/20...) and concept editing (http://selfpubauthors.wordpress.com/2...)

[[deleted user]]

Sarah, the Webbiegrrl Writer wrote: "Georgina wrote: "I had a character (in a very, very, early draft) that rode a palomino palfrey, that miraculously changed into a chestnut mare by the closing chapters."

Was the story set in the Em..."

You said: 'My SciFi series has a LOT of characters and I had someone ask me once if I could "combine" a few of the characters...'

Heh? How is that possible? I can't even imagine it. Like you say, each character should have depth, a past and future.

And no, not set in the Emerald City :):)

I have a character that comes back from death, but in rather a mangled way, so I don't think they'll be any confusion. :)

[Arshad]

A couple of statements I find incongruous in this thread:

"Most Indie Authors simply cannot change gears or mindsets and attack their project objectively. Most authors--indie or otherwise--get so damned attached to tiny little details, it's more than merely getting lost in the forest for the sake of the trees. They can get fixated. They can actually ruin their own best work by getting so fixated they deliberately destroy something great so as to highlight something....only a mother could love (so to speak)."

And:

"My SciFi series has a LOT of characters and I had someone ask me once if I could "combine" a few of the characters, which suggestion I thought was beyond absurd. I guess if you don't actually develop a name into a character, dropping the name and giving the action/scene/walk on behavior to another character who HAS been named makes sense. My characters are all named and given depth so no, I cannot "combine" them with someone else. They have a past, present and future. It's hard enough to combine two human lives in reality. Even more ridiculously in fiction."

These two statements seem incompatible, as they imply that writers are not objective about their creations, and yet all the elements they create are required for the story to work.

The problem with the writer's mindset is that after putting so much into creating and fleshing out a character or scene, building a backstory and context, is that we come to regard those scenes as necessary. Just because two characters have depth and individuality, and fulfill their roles perfectly, doesn't mean that one character couldn't do the same work and fill the same role just as well.

As writers, we deal in complexity, keeping the elements of the story straight and focused, while integrating the setting and backstory to give the plot context. But for a reader, they have to infer that complexity through the prism of the words you chose to present them with. Just because you know the richness of the character context does not mean that it is readily apparent to the reader, and may come across as deadweight. That's when an objective editor is of use, identifying elements of the story that, while wonderfully crafted, are extraneous to the structure of the story as a whole, and should be eliminated.

[Katy]

C.D. wrote: "Professional editors are very expensive, though, and probably too expensive for the average self-published author. Beta-readers are great and will catch some stuff. Amateur editors are also really good, but can still miss things. "

Hrm. I have often found as many errors in a "professionally" edited and published book from a traditional publisher as in an Indie book. Just because I don't have a degree, or have not worked for a publishing house, does not make me any less good at what I do. *shrug* In fact, I would think that small-timers like me would be better, as we're not crowded out by insane volumes and tight time-frames. I schedule 10 days with a ms., although I rarely need that much time - I've developed a rhythm where I can usually get an ms. done in a day or two, unless there are a lot of problems with it. Anyway, this has been an most enlightening discussion - I hope that it helps some folks with making their books as well-done as possible!

[Katy]

Sarah, the Webbiegrrl Writer wrote: " I like to keep the opinions and the typos separated, like you do. It's just too hard for anyone, especially a writer, to separate opinion from actual errors. Plus like I said earlier, no point correcting typos/errors when there are more edits to do."

This is a good point, and it is why I tell my authors that, if they make changes, they can always feel free to send the ms. back to me for another pass, to check if anything new has popped up.

[Katy]

Doc wrote: "Publishing IS a business, but unless you've got the money from somewhere else, a starting author can't afford to shell out the kind of cash a GOOD editor can demand. And there are plenty of bad editors who will demand similar prices."

Well, I, personally, offer a barter system for those who can't afford my fees; so does at least one other editor I know of, Sara Hampton. I can't speak for her, but for myself - I am VERY good. :-)

sry said: "I like to keep the opinions and the typos separated, like you do. It's just too hard for anyone, especially a writer, to separate opinion from actual errors. Plus like I said earlier, no point correcting typos/errors when there are more edits to do"

This is a very good point, and is why I tell my authors that, if they make changes due to my suggestions, or just because they thought of something they wanted to change, they are always welcome to send the ms. back to me for another pass to check if anything else has cropped up.

[Sarah]

Arshad wrote: "These two statements seem incompatible, as they imply that writers are not objective about their creations, and yet all the elements they create are required for the story to work."

Actually, Arshad, I think you've plucked two separate discussions and tried to combine them when they were not the same topic at all. One was discussing the "mindset" or state of mind, the "mood" of a person who is about to edit - and how different that is from the "mood" of most writers when we sit down to write and are "on a roll" (for instance).

The other was discussing the absurdity of the idea of taking a unique and specific character and combining them with some other unique and specific character--as though two completely separate PEOPLE could be morphed into one. What, like a husband and wife aren't actually two separate people? Or a Hero and a Villian? I mean, really, what kind of a ridiculous suggestion is it to "combine a few characters" ? (shakes head)

As others have noted, if one is writing distinctive and richly-defined characters, it's really a quite absurd suggestion--and it has nothing to do wtih the difference in mindset between writing versus editing.

I guess if you still think you can just combine characters, then you and I write very different kinds of stories. Mine are character-centered and character-driven and in fact, the first "idea" I get for a story is a character, not a plot or setting or scene--a person. So I never consider my characters anything but unique, each and every one a special snowflake in the blizzard I create.

-sry

[Sarah]

I should note, it's DEFINITELY OKAY to disagree or to be different. It's not right or wrong. That's the thing about creativity and art. Anyone who tries to say "this is the right way and that is the wrong way" is...well, wrong (LOL)

Editing however is not really the same kind of art as writing--that's the point I was trying to make--and it's exceedingly rare (or at least difficult and takes time/practice to do it) to find a writer who can also edit. I've been at this for over 40 years and 20 or 30 years ago I definitely could not edit my own work. In fact, in 2005 when I switched genres I had my first ever successful editing experience--working on someone else's work. It wasn't until 2006 or 2007 that I finally started really having a feel for how (mentally) to approach editing and it is just so completely different from writing!

Oh and CS-- I nearly always write my ending first, then the middle, then I skip around and the LAST thing I write is the opener so all that matters is what you have when you put it all together and offer it up to a reader. So long as there's a beginning, middle and end, and you get from A to B without waving any magic chickens, I think you're good. One thing I have done and know lots of readers hate is introduce a character in a very late chapter (not a walk on or redshirt, an actual character) but I write series books so I never really think in terms of "this is the end of the universe," just the end of this book ;-)

The expression btw was "murder your darlings" and it referred to much-loved turns of phrase or nifty little scenes--not characters. I have (repeatedly) killed off major characters. It's incredible the first time you give yourself freedom--as a writer--to do that. The risk, of course, is that sometimes readers don't like to see the major characters die. Ah well, there's always another book and since I *DO* write SciFi, I could always clone them (hee hee) Oh wait, I *DO* clone them (muahahaha)

-sry

[Chris]

Sarah, the Webbiegrrl Writer wrote >I suspect you make work you edit more like YOU want it to be rather than necessarily how the author intended,

That’s always the challenge, of course, to help the author fulfill their vision. But there are some things that are generally accepted as being good writing technique, such as showing rather than telling (in most circumstances) and not starting with a lot of backstory. I do the best I can, and have been pleased that 95% of my clients have responded to my critiques with comments like “Everything you said resonates” or something like that, even when I’ve given suggestions that would likely lead to months of revision.

>That's where and why I coined the term "wordsmithing" - the polishing of words without actually changing the real substance of anything at all.

Great term. Lots of authors go over a piece dozens of times, changing a word or two, when they’re missing big picture items.

>Editing is not even merely cutting to change pacing, which is what you're suggesting with the remarks you make here.

No, of course it isn’t. I can see how you might think I meant that from the examples I gave, but those were just the quick and easy examples to show big picture issues. Editing can require everything from re-envisioning the character to give her more depth to focusing in on your theme better. In some cases it may require adding a lot, though most writers seem to overwrite rather than underwrite.

>Chris - by the way, I think the "list" at the end of Murder Your Darlings of things/ways to trim is probably what you mean

That’s a great list, but it all depends on what the manuscript needs. I worked with one client who had a 1200-page manuscript where he kept making the same points over and over. For example, he had a scene that did a great job of showing how a woman was a bad mother. Then he had five or six more scenes showing the same thing. I got it the first time, and those repeated examples (which didn’t have anything to do with his main plot) slowed the story. Of course it’s his decision what he keeps or cuts, but I could at least point out what seemed repetitive.

All editing is going to involve personal opinion, to a certain extent. The best editors understand their client’s/critique partner’s goals and help them achieve those goals. Some of the best critique training I got was in art school (BFA photography, Rhode Island School of Design), where nearly all classes were run as critiques and any comment had to be backed by why you felt the way you did. Not only did it help me learn to identify and express my feelings, but it was a great example of how opinions could differ!

[Chris]

Sarah, the Webbiegrrl Writer wrote: "Chris, I'm going to attempt CreateSpace for the first time in a month or two--as soon as I get the eBook released I'll start reformatting an interior doc for CreateSpace. Can I upload a Word file or should it really be a PDF?"

PDF is safer, because you can look over the PDF you create (for those who don't know, it's a simple process -- just use "save as" in Word and save as a PDF) and check for errors there. If you upload a Word document, they'll change it to a PDF anyway, but then you have to carefully check the print copy to make sure everything came through properly. Of course, you might want to proofread the print copy anyway, so maybe it doesn't make much difference.

[Sarah]

Chris wrote: ">Chris - by the way, I think the "list" at the end of Murder Your Darlings of things/ways to trim is probably what you mean

That’s a great list, but it all depends on what the manuscript needs. I worked with one client who had a 1200-page manuscript where he kept making the same points over and over. For example, he had a scene that did a great job of showing how a woman was a bad mother. Then he had five or six more scenes showing the same thing. I got it the first time, and those repeated examples (which didn’t have anything to do with his main plot) slowed the story. Of course it’s his decision what he keeps or cuts, but I could at least point out what seemed repetitive."

OMG, 1200 pages is not a manuscript; it's a trilogy! And yeah, I see the example here as making sense.

I'm glad you understood I was only responding to the examples you'd offered--one can only go on the information at hand, eh? I'm very familiar with the RISD and all visual arts / design processes. In fact, I tend to try to apply the CRAP rules when I make plotting decisions. In case you haven't read Robin Williams fun little book Design for Non-Designers (since you are a designer *haha*), the CRAP rules are:

C - contrast
R - repetition (or negation of repetition *grin*)
A - alignment
P - proximity

I did a Tuesday Tip blog discussing how I "see" these rules in the writing activity and apply them to my own writing efforts. I think good design approaches apply as much to the literary arts as to the visual arts--or the performing arts :)

I spent 35 years writing "art for art's sake" (that is, not wanting to get published, just writing for the sake of the art itself) but the last 5-7 years, I'm definitely trying to create works of art that will endure, not just make me money at the Kindle Store ;) Books that are full of conflict (contrasts) are well-constructed (not repeating like your 1200-pg tome did), have rich characters (well-aligned for the sake of the plot) and settings (put the right people in the right places at the right times) will connect with a reader each and every time. These are the books that endure.

Regarding the second reply--re PDFs--I have Acrobat Professional so I usually just "print to PDF" and do my security or other modifications in Acrobat. I didn't realize CreateSpace would generate a PDF so yeah, I'd MUCH rather create my own PDF and let them touch it as little as possible :) Thanks for the heads up!

-sry

[[deleted user]]

Arshad wrote: "Sarah, the Webbiegrrl Writer wrote: "Actually, Arshad, I think you've plucked two separate discussions and tried to combine them when they were not the same topic at all....I guess if you still thi..."

I've had to remove irrelevant snowflakes. Characters that I've really loved (and others have loved too), characters that had depth. I had to come to those decisions myself (mainly because I was stuck between agent and publishers, in a state of limbo, without any real feedback as to what needed fixing).

It was a hard decision to finally make, as it also meant ditching 50k (some of my best chapters). It wasn't so much that the characters were irrelevant, but I had too many plot lines running concurrently. I had to simplify things.

I'm sure I could have speeded up the process if I had a developmental editor and more beta readers.

[Sarah]

Arshad, I'm sorry that what you heard was condescension as I was attemtping to have an intelligent conversation where disagreement--or agreeing to disagree--is what adults do.

You're a total stranger who knows nothing about me, my experiences or my work--and it is literally impossible for you to have any such knowledge since I am only now on the precipice of releasing my first book. Yet you felt entitled to make personal statements as to my qualifications and regarding my work as though you knew me and/or my fiction.

You have replied with such a high level of hostility, anger and resentment, I cannot continue to engage in a conversation with you on this subject but only a fight and I choose right here, right now, NOT to fight. I do hope you also will choose not to fight in public. It's really unpleasant (not to mention unprofessional).

Georgina, I was so upset about losing the 9 days of edits because I had managed to trim 30,000 words out of the first 70,000 and it was so much better so then had to do it AGAIN (a third time, actually since this was the second loss) so yeah, I suppose a third party might have speeded things up but I had plenty of Beta Readers from July through November and it was their inputs I was working on when I lost the material between xmas eve and NY day. I'm so relieved to have recovered some of it--not all but 2 out of 3 sections ain't bad ;-)

-sry

[[deleted user]]

Sarah, the Webbiegrrl Writer wrote: "Arshad, I'm sorry that what you heard was condescension as I was attemtping to have an intelligent conversation where disagreement--or agreeing to disagree--is what adults do.

You're a total stra..."

9 days of edits lost! Ahh! That must have been a horrible feeling!
Glad you have recovered most of it. :) Georgina.

[[deleted user]]

Peace all, or Amy will be down here with a big stick!
:):) Georgina.

[Sarah]

Georgina wrote: "Sarah, the Webbiegrrl Writer wrote: "Arshad, I'm sorry that what you heard was condescension as I was attemtping to have an intelligent conversation where disagreement--or agreeing to disagree--is ..."

Honestly, Georgina, it wasn't the 9 days so much as the (a) window I scheduled back in August to make time to do the edits in December, (b) the 30k accomplishment (not an easy feat to cull 30,000 words and still have a usable product and afterwards I felt it was better not just usable) and (c) the absolute waste of rework. I hate rework. Rework is lost profits, pure and simple. Rework has absolutely zero plus side to it. Rework is the enemy of success. This is the Mechanical Engineer, Product Manager and IT Manager speaking. After 20 years of watching rework ruin projects and budgets and schedules, it irks me to my bone to have to DO rework. Do it right the first time :) It's funny but my "hero and mentor" Robert A. Heinlein (also a MechEng and Product Mgr) once said exactly that (in jest) to Isaac Asimov when the two giants were discussing whether or not to write in drafts - Asimov claimed to do repeated, recursive drafts to which Heinlein replied he should just do it right the first time (makes me smile everytime).

-sry

[Sarah]

Georgina wrote: "Peace all, or Amy will be down here with a big stick!
:):) Georgina."

It takes two to fight and I already made myself clear. I'm also far better off getting back into bed today. The fever broke but I am still feeling deathly ill from whatever this bug is that I picked up at work over the weekend. Not fun.

[[deleted user]]

Sarah, the Webbiegrrl Writer wrote: "Georgina wrote: "Peace all, or Amy will be down here with a big stick!
:):) Georgina."

It takes two to fight and I already made myself clear. I'm also far better off getting back into bed today. T..."

Hope you feel better soon!
;) Georgina.

[Sarah]

Georgina wrote:" Hope you feel better soon!
;) Georgina. "

Thanks, Georgina! I'm sleeping and drinking lots of water and trying to kick this but the fever's not broken after all--just took til mid-day to resurface *groan*

I hate being sick, esp. since I picked this up at work (at the day job) and am now spending my 3 days "off" (when I should/could be doing MY work) in bed. Being sick is almost as bad as doing rework (grin)

-sry

[[deleted user]]

Sarah, the Webbiegrrl Writer wrote: "Georgina wrote:" Hope you feel better soon!
;) Georgina. "

Thanks, Georgina! I'm sleeping and drinking lots of water and trying to kick this but the fever's not broken after all--just took til mid..."

'I hate being sick, esp. since I picked this up at work (at the day job) and am now spending my 3 days "off" (when I should/could be doing MY work) in bed. '--Isn't it always the way!

:) Georgina.

[Chris]

Sarah, the Webbiegrrl Writer wrote: "In case you haven't read Robin Williams fun little book Design for Non-Designers (since you are a designer *haha*), the CRAP rules are:"

I haven't read it, but it sounds interesting. I love analyzing writing from other angles. I've been looking at scriptwriting rules lately. Okay, obviously scriptwriting is a form of writing, but it tends to be more structured.

By the way, if anybody is interested in writing screenplays -- or just looking at writing from another angle -- my brother Doug Eboch wrote the screenplay for Sweet Home Alabama and teaches scriptwriting at Pasadena Art Center. He has a blog I often find both fascinating and relevant as a novelist, called Let's Schmooze.

http://letsschmooze.blogspot.com/

I also interviewed him and some other script writers for an article I wrote for Writers Digest several years ago. I reprinted most of it on my blog. Here's the direct link.

http://chriseboch.blogspot.com/2011/0...

[Barbara]

Chris, I've written screenplays. When I started writing in English I thought it would be easier. It's not! ;-)
(not to mention the fact that in Hollywood the gatekeepers are still strong)
So I went back to prose... much more freedom in developing the story how you want it! :-)

[Chris]

Barbara wrote: " in Hollywood the gatekeepers are still strong) So I went back to prose... much more freedom in developing the story how you want it! :-) "

Yes, Hollywood is even more of a challenge than book publishing. The thing that struck me most when I was interviewing scriptwriters (successful ones -- Liar, Liar; American Pie 2) is that they almost all wanted to write a novel, because they wanted the freedom and control. Several said they were jealous of ME because I had a book published!

[C.S. Splitter]

It's ok to say TLDR to this :).

As I write this, I am contemplating just how much my editor hates me right now lol. Don’t get me wrong, I think I am pretty easy to work with and I definitely place more trust in my editor, Tricia Kristufek (yep, a CR group member), than I ever thought I could. It’s just that as we get the books ready to go to print, there are a TON of little details to fix or worry about.

She does her thing and waits for me to get back to her and I find new stuff on which she must do her thing lol. It feels like it is never going to end.

The KEY to finding a good editor is REALLY being able to find someone to work WITH. Not "for" and not "over." I can’t imagine an editor putting forth their best effort when an author is constantly dismissing the editor’s views. I also cannot imagine an author choosing to work with an editor that does not share the vision (and enthusiasm) of the book. Unless, of course, you have a boss TELLING you to work with that other person…in which case, you do what ya gotta do.

Basically, the author and editor are going to be spending a LOT of time together so you better find people with whom you can work. That’s why I love my editor :).

I won’t bore you with re-listing all the self pubbing mistakes I have made, but those mistakes have shown me a few things:

The stereotype that all indie/self pubbed books suck probably stems mostly from the fact that most of those books DO suck due to poor writing and a lack of editing. I am POSITIVE that some people in the traditional publishing industry are perpetuating this stereotype, but we, as a group, gave them the ammunition which they are now using against us.

Therefore, indie/self pubbed books are held to a much higher standard than traditionally published (mostly meaning Big Six houses) books. The last two books I finished from big name authors from Big Six publishers would have been panned if they were indie/self pubbed.

One of the books obviously did not have an editor’s touch in any way. The story, as it was, did not progress. The characters all ran around in circles while the author showed off his considerable skill at writing beautiful prose. There were also many, many inconsistencies and flat out errors, not to mention that trite phrases and themes were used over and over again. That editor is now winning awards for that work. Go figure.

The other book might have been well edited by most standards. I cannot recall a typo and the story was great as is usual from this author. But…the author took a lot of liberties in the punctuation department and the story basically ended where it began. Don’t get me wrong, I really liked this book but from the “purist’ standpoint, there were a lot of things that one could pick at if they were so inclined…like many would be if the authors were indie/self pubbed.

Instead, these two books are bestsellers. Don’t get me wrong, both authors are better than most of us could ever dream of being, but one book was clearly edited poorly and the other had “editorial issues” that could be argued one way or the other.

Sour grapes? A little. I am just tired of telling my editor that our goal has to be to turn out a better-edited book than those successful, big named authors are forced to turn out. I feel like we have to be better just to get judged by the same standards…and that’s not even taking into account that both authors I am talking about are better than me lol.

We, as readers, spend a lot of time talking and thinking about the next breakthrough author—maybe we should spend a little time thinking about the next “can’t miss” editors. Maybe we should be wondering why some of these “no name” editors haven’t been picked up by Big Six publishers. People like Tricia and Amy (I have worked with Amy too) who go the extra mile to make the author’s work better than it was before they touched it.

I look at editors like great football coaches. They can’t make a bad book good, but they can make average books good and good books great. They are like sex in a relationship: they are only 10% of the equation, but they are the most important 10%.

Splitter

[Justin]

Just to let everyone know if they don't already. I re-edited my book and althought they won't make changes to it without charging me I am able to send it out for reviews, so if anyone is interested, let me know in the Looking for Reviews thread or message me.

Thanks

[Sarah]

Splitter, what's TLDR stand for? I swear more acronyms pop up daily!

[[deleted user]]

C.S. Splitter wrote: "It's ok to say TLDR to this :).

As I write this, I am contemplating just how much my editor hates me right now lol. Don’t get me wrong, I think I am pretty easy to work with and I definitely plac..."

I think you're spot-on, Splitter, indie books are judged more harshly.

I've read some atrocious Big Six books, more in terms of plot line and flawed world building, than editorially. And then there's the question of plagiarism. A certain vampire series comes to mind (I could be unleashing a wave of anger upon me now), and a far earlier series of books, written by an author with the last name of Smith. The key points in plot, names, characters are uncannily alike (many, many articles on this on the net). Did no one notice, or were they all dreaming?

Great editors are worth their weight in gold. Tricia has agreed to take on my manuscript 'Sorrow's Child', after I receive feedback from my dev editor and beta readers, then complete all the necessary rewrites. I'm delighted!

I sent her a sample of my work first, so that she could see if she wanted to help me, and also so that she could ascertain the level of work involved. I think that's important. My developmental editor, Teresa Edgerton (Fantasy Author, see her GR profile) required this too.

It's also important to have reached the stage as a writer where you can readily accept advice. My husband has edited for me for years (he has a certificate in writing and editing among other things). We had some right doozies in my first years as a writer! He was ruthless (and very honest), telling me to cut whole paragraphs or chapters, and asking me such horrible questions as: 'So what's the point of this chapter, Gina?' and 'Don't you think introducing, then killing off, nine characters in the first fifty pages is a bit too much?'

But he, and other people have proven to be right, so now I listen and go away and make the changes. Things are more peaceful in our house now. :)

[Experiment BL626]

Sarah, the Webbiegrrl Writer wrote: "Splitter, what's TLDR stand for? I swear more acronyms pop up daily!"

Too Long; Didn't Read.

[Experiment BL626]

Georgina wrote: "It's also important to have reached the stage as a writer where you can readily accept advice. My husband has edited for me for years (he has a certificate in writing and editing among other things). We had some right doozies in my first years as a writer! He was ruthless (and very honest), telling me to cut whole paragraphs or chapters, and asking me such horrible questions as: 'So what's the point of this chapter, Gina?' and 'Don't you think introducing, then killing off, nine characters in the first fifty pages is a bit too much?'"

You're still married, right? ;)

[[deleted user]]

Experiment wrote: "Georgina wrote: "It's also important to have reached the stage as a writer where you can readily accept advice. My husband has edited for me for years (he has a certificate in writing and editing a..."

Yes, but it was a interesting time. Luckily we lived in the country (mainland Australia then), no close neighbours. :)

[[deleted user]]

Meagan wrote: "I think TLDR stands for Too Long Didn't Read? However I'm not trusting my memory since acronyms trip me up so badly at times.

Anyways, here's my two cents...

I think and know some people from..."

Too right! I love world mythology and ancient history. I think you can never do enough cross referencing research, when you write fantasy (paranormal is a branch of fantasy/romance in my mind).

[[deleted user]]

Meagan wrote: "Georgina wrote: "Meagan wrote: "I think TLDR stands for Too Long Didn't Read? However I'm not trusting my memory since acronyms trip me up so badly at times.

Anyways, here's my two cents...

I..."

Do you like Robert Graves? 'The Greek Myths' is a wonderful collection (I'm partial to the Greek Gods) and also my favourite book on the poetic language of myth, 'The White Goddess'.

[Sarah]

Experiment wrote: "Sarah, the Webbiegrrl Writer wrote: "Splitter, what's TLDR stand for? I swear more acronyms pop up daily!"

Too Long; Didn't Read."

hahaha, thanx ... given my long-windedness, I'm surprised I haven't been told this one myself!