Fantasy Book Club Series discussion
This topic is about
Heir of Novron
The Riyria Revelations
>
Series as a whole - Through Book #6: MANY SPOILERS ALERT
Bryan wrote: "I wanted to come back and say that one of the things I like so much about your writing is your depth and insight into the human psyche. Myron talking to Royce...heck Myron in general since he seemed to be the conscience of the group. Totally agree!
Bryan wrote:
The depth of character and insight into those characters was very well done, yet you also kept things simplistic in the sense you didn't get bogged down in unnecessary details for detail's sake.
Ditto.
Bryan wrote:
...and Gwen, how could you not LOVE that woman. I mean, she KNEW!!! Yet she still did what was best for Royce. :)
Gwen is great. I was afraid for her early on. Can't remember which book it was but Royce made a statement like "things don't go well for people like us" and I knew....just knew...they wouldn't be together long term. Still....the time they had was good. I especially liked seeing them in Wintertide. If it wasn't for the news of Hadrian's capture - it just might have kept them there.
Bryan wrote:
Another thing I never saw coming was Arcadius and Gwen. Still keeping it vague. Royce's response to this when he was talking to Hadrian...my heart went out to him. To have the thought that others think so horribly of you, it's a horrible feeling.
Yeah...Arcadius was like a father to Royce so yeah that was a pretty amazing revelation.
Bryan wrote:
I think you are right btw, would be tough if you wrote a book about Novron if they read them out of order.
Screw them if they can't read them in the right order - lol. I want the story. Put a big old author's note/disclaimer at the front of the book - but write it anyway ;-)
Bryan wrote: Any idea when you are announcing your next project? Cause I am all on board! I will do my best to make sure sales go well, if they walk into the fantasy section at work I'll be recommending your work!
Yeah...tell us more - I'ver read bits and pieces here and there but wondering what the current "plan" is.
Bryan wrote: I agree with you on Myron btw, he is different, but only in that he is less experienced, more innocent to me. He "seems" innocent later too but he merely dealt with his experiences in a way that didn't scar him like most people, he moved past the hardships and stayed true to who he was. Only now he had more wisdom to go along with his book smarts.
Myron is great because he can be happy with just about anything. Power...riches...these things have no appeal to him...a good book and good friends are enough for him and ya gotta love that. A great role model for all of us I think.
Elizabeth wrote: "Screw them if they can't read them in the right order - lol. I want the story. Put a big old author's note/disclaimer at the front of the book - but write it anyway ;-) "Elizabeth, you're brilliant! ;-)
I honestly don't think anyone would like an early story about Royce. Royce was not a nice guy, and would not work well as the hero of a story. In his Diamond days, he would have been very cruel.
I DO!!!!!!!! That's the point man! How many movies are made with antiheroes? Some people (like me) don't want to see a boy scout saving lives, we want to see death, chaos, and sheer wanton unreasonable destruction :-)I'm watching Spartacus right now, and THAT is how I imagine Royce would be without Hadrian and I f'n LOVE IT!!!
Let the man run free, without the annoyance of a conscious and see how much fun he can have ^.^
and this is why i need to be redeemed HAHAHAHAHA
Guess I need a Hadrian in my life :-P
Michael wrote: "I honestly don't think anyone would like an early story about Royce. Royce was not a nice guy, and would not work well as the hero of a story. In his Diamond days, he would have been very cruel."It could be a story about the Diamond in general. Or someone else's story, and they come across the pre-Hadrian Royce.
A story about Royce in the Diamond would be pretty dark and miserable - I can't imagine how we could have assassin-Royce and not lose the humour and fun of the books that I love so much.I would prefer to see the adventures of early-Riyria. In twelve years they must have had some awesome adventures. The few hints we've had were great. Royce trying to disillusion Hadrian, Hadrian trying to tame Royce - taking all sorts of crazy jobs. That would be more my cup of tea than assassin-Royce I think!
SPOILERS!I finished the book yesterday and now I am feeling like I have lost something precious. I should have read slower (It took me 2 days to read it).
Anyway, I was completely shocked about the true heir. It had crossed my mind when I was reading Avempartha but I dismissed that thought when Gaunt and Mercy were revealed as heirs (I thought she was Gaunt's daughter). Somehow, I still can't imagine Royce as a king and a father. I guess I will get used to it whit time.
I totally love Arista and Hadrian. My favourite scene was when Hadrian punched Gaunt in the face. The reactions of others were priceless. Although, I am a little disappointed that you didn't tell us if they had any children (perhaps son named Alric, or Royce?).
Myron, Mauvin, Modina, Magnus, Alric, Wyatt, Elden and even Gaunt were awesome. I would love to have someone like Myron by my side when my sister lost her fiancé. He would be such a help. I loved Mauvin's comments, they always made me laugh. Modina grew up in such a strong and admirable woman. I am very proud of her. I liked Magnus since Avempartha so I was disappointed when he betrayed Royce in Wintertide, but he gained my respect again. Somehow, I knew that Alric would die, but I was still very touched when it actually happedned. Wyatt and Elden didn't deserve such an awful death. Well, at least Elden didn't, he was such a sweet guy. Gaunt was getting on my nerves, I would probably punch him too, but he had few good moments.
I can't believe nobody has mentioned one of the best scenes from the book - Royce and his pet Gilly. I laughted so hard at this.
Novron's story was amazing, I didn't see that coming, even though it was so obvious (the heads of the statues, burned library, Hall's imprisonment). When they got to his tomb I was like: 'Wait, what? Why does he have pointed ears?' However, I don't get how could Gaunt touch the box with the horn when he wasn't the heir? And why couldn't he sound it? Was it because of Hadrian's medailon?
Well, I think I won't bore you with more of my thoughts. Just two more things:
1. I would totally love to read about Hadrian's life as Galenti. That would be so awesome. (I liked the part when he was talking with the Goblins in their language and everybody was like: 'What?')
2. Michael, I love your books. You are my inspiration and I hope one day I will be as good as you. Thank you for this great adventure, I will be looking forward to reading more from you. Take care.
*English is not my first language, so I apologize for any mistakes.
I loved the religious aspect, the origin of the church of Novron was fantastic and unexpected and the feather at the very end a lovely touch. Generally I lost interest in the 2nd book (or 3rd & 4th of previous publication) as it wasn't my thing, but the first book and third books were a fun ride. I would love to see if the past problems between the council of "the art" and the teshlor council repeat themselves as Arista and Hadrian try to rebuild them. Any further "feather earning" good deeds would make good short stories. There were lots of likable moments in the whole series.
See Michael, I'm not the only one that wants to read about Royce before he was a "good guy"!you have an audience for it sir!
I completely agree with everyone on the characters. Absolutely love Myron and who wouldn't love Hadrian and Royce with their witty banter? I literally wanted to jump into the book at points and punch Degan Gaunt in the face. I was so thrilled when Hadrian finally did. I don't know why Michael received a bad review on his female characters. The only one I hated was Edith, but that's kind of a given. There are still some questions I have, though. (view spoiler)
"A story about Royce in the Diamond would be pretty dark and miserable - I can't imagine how we could have assassin-Royce and not lose the humour and fun of the books that I love so much."Are you kidding? Can you imagine the sarcasm and cynicism Royce would be spewing right before each kill? Specially if he was working with Merrick? THAT would be a story! His time working with Merrick and Jade(?) and how that unfolded. I really don't think we need a story about Manzant. He was miserable long before he got there and Manzant only made him SLIGHTLY worse. I say slightly because really, how much worse could he have gotten?
Sorry, when you grow up in the hood, guys like Hadrian are figments of imagination lol. He is Ned Flanders to Royce's Homer Simpson. His only redeeming value is his skills with the sword, and his quick wit. Of course the girls would fall for the knight in shining armor :-P, but ultimately it's the thug who saves the world ;-)
Isaac wrote: Are you kidding? Can you imagine the sarcasm and cynicism Royce would be spewing right before each kill?"See, I don't think Royce would have been 'spewing sarcasm' at that time. In my imagination, he would have been colder, more ruthless, focused on getting the job done... Definitely a different character to the Royce we know and love in the 6-book series. I can't see that being funny. I guess I'm thinking about (view spoiler).
I also disagree that Hadrian's only redeeming value is his wit and his fighting skills, but we can definitely agree to disagree! :)
yea. you're very right, the way he was at the end of wintertide was INTENSE! It was funny, but you have to be a sado-masochist to find it so :-P But I think Merrick's genius and (I imagine) Jade's womanly charm would add to Royce's mood and make him as funny as he was with Hadrian.i respect your opinion about Hadrian, it's just how i grew up. He's as annoying to me as Ned Flanders is.
Hey we both agree that these books were FANTASTIC and that Michael is a GENIUS. What else really matters?
You know what's funny? I have more respect, admiration, and love for Myron than I do Hadrian. His innocence and ignorance are excusable because of his seclusion in the monastery whereas Hadrian's are not. He's lived in the world, knows what kind of place it is, and despite the lessons learned he continues doing "what's right" at the risk of not only himself, but Riyria as a whole. He's selfish in his righteousness and I HATE that as much as Royce does!!!! I rolled my eyes and sighed "again? seriously?" every time Royce had to go save him or themselves because of Hadrian's choices.If it had only been him that got into all the crap he did, if Royce or someone else didn't end up suffering to get his ass out of the hole he dug himself in, I would have liked him a lot more.
PS: the same goes for Arista. I realize all her men had to die to progress the story, but they all died following her and the choices she made.In real life if a person gets someone else killed more than once because of their choices, would they still have friends willing to follow? HELL NO!
How many died to free Ratibor only to have it fall again? and why did it fall again? because she went off looking for Gaunt. why? because it's what she thought was right. what did that cause? the fall of ratibor and the death of Hilfred who deserved SO MUCH MORE for all the crap he put up with FOR HER! pisses me off.
I LOVED her transformation in Wintertide and Percepliquis because it finally donned on her "hey! my choices affect other people too! maybe it would be a good idea to THINK before I ran off doing what I think is right?"
Hadrian never changed, hence my animosity towards him in particular.
Yeah, she and Hadrian DEFINITELY deserve each other.
"In my imagination, he would have been colder, more ruthless, focused on getting the job done... Definitely a different character to the Royce we know and love in the 6-book series. I can't see that being funny."You know I was watching Looney Tunes last night, the one with Bugs Playing the piano at the Orchestra. Right before he starts playing a guy coughs, then again as he's about to start again. Bugs gets mad, pulls out a gun, and shoots him before he finally starts playing lol
The point of that story? Cold-blooded killing can be funny too :-P
"Anything can be funny, it all depends on the context."-George Carlin
After finishing one of Michael's new (literary fiction/non Riyria) beta-projects, I have to apologize. This book is perfect the way it is. Making this closer to reality would've been a crime. There are other books for that as Michael will show us later, and they are for a completely different audience.
I still want to see Royce's story, but I've had a small change of heart about Hadrian. He's not such a pain in the ass after all :-P
I loved the whole series, the best I have read for a long time. I had to read one straight after the other as I could not wait to see what happened next! I especially liked the way that we were given hints so some things I guessed just before they were revealed, others were a surprise, great!I would love to read more about the future and rebuilding the empire, do the Elves, Humans and Dwarves manage to live in peace?
I loved all the characters especially Myron, Hadrian,Royce and Arista.
I felt that the female characters were strong I cant see how that reviewer said that about them, even after just reading the first book. I think that Gwen was amazing to make the sacrifice she did even knowing what it would mean.
Michael wrote: "I honestly don't think anyone would like an early story about Royce. Royce was not a nice guy, and would not work well as the hero of a story. In his Diamond days, he would have been very cruel."I can see that. Based on his actions at the end of Wintertide - he would be pretty scarey to be around. If people read that book before the others then they might have a hard time bonding with him. One of the reasons that I love him so much is I know he has gone thorugh so much pain in his life so when he quips about killing x or y it comes off as justified but in the back of your mind you know its just "talk" and his bark is worse than his bite. Back in those days he would probably say little...and just let his kinife do the talking.
Asha124 wrote: "I finished the book yesterday and now I am feeling like I have lost something precious. I should have read slower (It took me 2 days to read it).I know how you feel...I really tried to get it to stretch out but at some point I just couldn't help myself.
Asha124 wrote: "Anyway, I was completely shocked about the true heir. It had crossed my mind when I was reading Avempartha but I dismissed that thought when Gaunt and Mercy were revealed as heirs (I thought she was Gaunt's daughter). Somehow, I still can't imagine Royce as a king and a father. I guess I will get used to it whit time.
I was also caught completely off-guard - which is one of the great things about this series. But I actually can see Royce as both a king and father. I think he would be very caring and nurturing as he would see "Gwen" in his daughter and the line about "possible suiters" would indeed be hillarious to see.
Asha124 wrote: "I totally love Arista and Hadrian. My favourite scene was when Hadrian punched Gaunt in the face. The reactions of others were priceless.
YES! That was a great scene - especically how Hadrian didn't even know he had done it. Just a knee-jerk reaction.
Asha124 wrote: "Although, I am a little disappointed that you didn't tell us if they had any children (perhaps son named Alric, or Royce?).
Actually I don't care to know that - I didn't like Harry Potter where we fast forward and see who married would have preferred the last book to end witht the end of Voldamort.
Asha124 wrote: "
Myron, Mauvin, Modina, Magnus, Alric, Wyatt, Elden and even Gaunt were awesome. I would love to have someone like Myron by my side when my sister lost her fiancé. He would be such a help. I loved Mauvin's comments, they always made me laugh. Modina grew up in such a strong and admirable woman. I am very proud of her. I liked Magnus since Avempartha so I was disappointed when he betrayed Royce in Wintertide, but he gained my respect again. Somehow, I knew that Alric would die, but I was still very touched when it actually happedned. Wyatt and Elden didn't deserve such an awful death. Well, at least Elden didn't, he was such a sweet guy. Gaunt was getting on my nerves, I would probably punch him too, but he had few good moments.
I agree with everything you said!!
Asha124 wrote: "I can't believe nobody has mentioned one of the best scenes from the book - Royce and his pet Gilly. I laughted so hard at this.
YES! Gilly was great. I love the line about Royce possibly getting the translation wrong - priceless.
Asha124 wrote: Novron's story was amazing, I didn't see that coming, even though it was so obvious (the heads of the statues, burned library, Hall's imprisonment). When they got to his tomb I was like: 'Wait, what? Why does he have pointed ears?' However, I don't get how could Gaunt touch the box with the horn when he wasn't the heir? And why couldn't he sound it? Was it because of Hadrian's medailon?
I'm going through the thread sequentially so Mihcahel probably answered this but I don't think there is any problem with people touching the horn. I think Esrahaddon saying the heir is needed to get the horn has to do with Gilly....as only the heir can control him. As for blowing it and not working - I suspect that only an elf can challenge an elf so since Gaunt was 100% human - he didn't do anything
Asha124 wrote: Well, I think I won't bore you with more of my thoughts. Just two more things:
1. I would totally love to read about Hadrian's life as Galenti. That would be so awesome. (I liked the part when he was talking with the Goblins in their language and everybody was like: 'What?')
That would be fun to see.
Andrea wrote: "There are still some questions I have, though..."Andrea, I'm going to try and answer your questions with "my interpretation" -- they may not be right but I'm going through the comments in sequnce and I'm sure Michael will address them but I want to see if I guess right. ;-) Here goes:
(view spoiler)
Isaac wrote: "Are you kidding? Can you imagine the sarcasm and cynicism Royce would be spewing right before each kill? Specially if he was working with Merrick? THAT would be a story! His time working with Merrick and Jade(?) and how that unfolded. I really don't think we need a story about Manzant. He was miserable long before he got there and Manzant only made him SLIGHTLY worse. I say slightly because really, how much worse could he have gotten?I actually imagine it a bit differently. Royce "banters" now - but back in the day I think he would just "silently" kill. No reason to talk - why would you. I think he would see it as a waste of time. So unless the book was written in first person so we "see himside his head....shudder..." there would be very little other than slash...blood...move on.
I think a lot of his "talk" now is his way of cutting with his toungue rather than his knife. I doubt the "old Royce" was very "chatty."
Rachel wrote: "See, I don't think Royce would have been 'spewing sarcasm' at that time. In my imagination, he would have been colder, more ruthless, focused on getting the job done... Definitely a different character to the Royce we know and love in the 6-book series. I can't see that being funny.I also disagree that Hadrian's only redeeming value is his wit and his fighting skills, but we can definitely agree to disagree! :)."
Exactly - I'm with Rachel here. Both on the point of Royce being just an efficient killer - like a shark (which would be pretty distasteful) and on Hadiran who has MUCH more going on then his wit and fighting skills.
Throughout the books you saw that Hadiran has sympathy for others and a high sense of fighting for the underdog. He's also very protective of those he loves (although Royce is too - just with more intensity).
In the first book he takes the job from Wyatt/Dewitt to "save" him for a minor mistake. When Myron was slow to come out of the Abbey - he put the smack down on everyone (I think even Royce) when they wanted to "get going" saying he could have as much time as he wants. Hadiran can best be described as "a good man" capable in his own skills and wanting to use those skills for some "higher purpose."
Isaac wrote: "Hey we both agree that these books were FANTASTIC and that Michael is a GENIUS. What else really matters?"Hear, hear! I'll drink to that.
Isaac wrote: "You know what's funny? I have more respect, admiration, and love for Myron than I do Hadrian. His innocence and ignorance are excusable because of his seclusion in the monastery whereas Hadrian's are not. He's lived in the world, knows what kind of place it is, and despite the lessons learned he continues doing "what's right" at the risk of not only himself, but Riyria as a whole. He's selfish in his righteousness and I HATE that as much as Royce does!!!! I rolled my eyes and sighed "again? seriously?" every time Royce had to go save him or themselves because of Hadrian's choices. Well, I'll never "diss" Myron - he is awesome in every way possible. But if given the choice - hands down I'll take Hadrian! And not just because he's big and handsome and charming and good at what he does.
You can dismiss it as a "girl thing" but the fact that he WILL sacrfifice for others is why I love him so. I think you may be under a misconception...that Hadrian sees the world in all it's horrors but I think he actually looks at it through rose-colored-glassess and where Royce might see danger or possible traps - Hadrian either is ignorant to it - or confidident enough in his own skillz to know he can get himself out of any trouble that ensues. Have you ared The Viscount and the Witch? I think this tells a lot (although they were both younger and thefore for neither tempered by the other) but Hadrian didn't seem to have any cares about any possible negative outcomes whereas Royce saw the situation perfectly.
Isaac wrote: "If it had only been him that got into all the crap he did, if Royce or someone else didn't end up suffering to get his ass out of the hole he dug himself in, I would have liked him a lot more.
Yeah but what kind of fun would that be? If they had done everything the way Royce wanted - there would be no story ;-) All traps would be subverted and there would be little to no adventure. I think Royce would have walked through fire for Hadrian - no matter what bad decisions he might think he is making.
..."
Isaac wrote: "PS: the same goes for Arista. I realize all her men had to die to progress the story, but they all died following her and the choices she made.In real life if a person gets someone else killed more than once because of their choices, would they still have friends willing to follow? HELL NO!
How many died to free Ratibor only to have it fall again? and why did it fall again? because she went off looking for Gaunt. why? because it's what she thought was right. what did that cause? the fall of ratibor and the death of Hilfred who deserved SO MUCH MORE for all the crap he put up with FOR HER! pisses me off.
I think Arista was aware of her actions and felt genuinely bad when they resulted in death. But they were at war. Yeah people die in war. If she hadn't left to find the heir then the elves would have killed everyone in Ratibor and the rest of the world.
Yes I feel bad for Hilfred - and yes Arista was blind and insensative for years - but I'm much more upset with her for what she did while Hilfred was alive (not noticing him) then causing his death (with he gave willingly).
Isaac wrote:
I LOVED her transformation in Wintertide and Percepliquis because it finally donned on her "hey! my choices affect other people too! maybe it would be a good idea to THINK before I ran off doing what I think is right?"
Hadrian never changed, hence my animosity towards him in particular.
Yeah, she and Hadrian DEFINITELY deserve each other.
Well we agree on the last point but I'm sure for MUCH different reasons ;-P
Isaac wrote: "I still want to see Royce's story, but I've had a small change of heart about Hadrian. He's not such a pain in the ass after all :-P "Woohoo!! Glad we don't have to be on opposites sides about Hadrian.
Sam wrote: "I loved the whole series, the best I have read for a long time. I had to read one straight after the other as I could not wait to see what happened next! I especially liked the way that we were giv..."Hey Sam - welcome to the discussion - I'm so glad you enojoyed the books - and I'm in 100% agreement.
Whew! I'm finally cauhgt up - on this thread - hope to be more attentive in the future - Isaac I've loved your comments - even if we sometimes disagree ;-p.
Elizabeth, was an excellent choice in moderator for this discussion as she intuitively has absorbed my story to the point where I almost don’t have to comment. And unless I’m mistaken she hasn’t read the Afterword. Her answers listed here and elsewhere are spot on. But just for the sake of redundancy:1. Why can’t Gaunt sound the horn? Only one of elven blood can sound it
2. Why can Gaunt touch the horn if he’s not the heir? I think the point here was that magic was detected on the box and it was PRESUMED that it might harm anyone other than the heir. In fact, all that was detected was that when it was touched the message of Esrahaddon would switch on.
3. How did Gaunt get medallion? Just as Elizabeth explained. Midwife took Royce and medallion with intent to sell it. Terrified someone who question where she got the child from and knowing that the Seret were still investigating, and then this professor from the north knocks on her door. She panicked and dumped the baby. Here’s something Elizabeth did not know, something no one knows. Royce would have died abandoned as an infant if he was not saved by an odd man with a satchel over one shoulder. Afraid that selling the medallion might draw attention, the midwife--Miranda’s mother--keeps it until she finally gives it to her own son. That’s how Degan tells it, but there is some speculation that he actually stole the amulet from his mother’s room, claiming after her death that she gave it to him.
4. Why didn’t Gwen tell Royce about Mercy? Initially she was concerned that doing so might cause him to feel trapped by her, and she needed to believe that he was willing to give up his lifestyle for his own reasons first. Otherwise she felt their relationship would never work. Later, she knew what would happen if she did, and Gwen simply wasn’t that selfish.
I hope I’m not missing any questions. Sometimes I purposely avoid answering some questions because I think it is more fun for everyone if others jump in with speculations rather than have me weigh in right away and throw water on the topic. At the same time I don’t want to miss something important. Honestly thought, Elizabeth has been scary with her accuracy. Maybe she can write the next one.
As for Gilly…I am so glad someone finally mentioned the miss-translated order Royce gave to his pet--the “decency and rangers” line. I personally felt that was the funniest sentence in the series. Even I laughed when re-reading that.
Now just to stir the pot…
There are two themes that run through the story. One I touched on lightly in the Afterword, concerning redemption. There is more to that topic insofar as Nimbus and Royce form one group and Arcadius and Thranic form the other. Both sets seek redemption for sins, but the two groups have very different ways concerning how to go about it. I’ll leave that there for now.
The other theme is one that Isaac and Elizabeth and Rachel have engaged in, perhaps without realizing. It is the concept of the nature of reality and the role of perception in determining it. This is constantly brought up throughout the series in the form of the half-empty glass, the dark and light dagger, the dog and cat view points, but most of all in the very characters of Royce and Hadrian who are the yin and yang, pragmatism vs empathy, cynical vs naive.
The most interesting thing here is how readers approach this. Some, like Isaac, see Royce as believable and Hadrian as invented fiction as no one could be that naive or “good,” which is ultimately perceived as bad. He is not at all alone in this position. Others however, see just the opposite. To them Hadrian is “normal” and Royce the unimaginable fiction--no one could be that unfeeling or cold.
I suspect that depending on your personal experiences, you will come down on one side or the other. Yet what Royce is trying to express in the “Nature of Right” chapter in Nyphron Rising, is a very diluted and simplified philosophical argument (that actually has it’s basis more in objectivism vs subjectivism) that two exact opposites can coexist without disproving the other. This is a deeper point and completely unnecessary for the enjoyment of the story, but still I find it fascinating that readers mimic the characters. Are you Team Royce or Team Hadrian? Practical or optimistic. And which do you think is better to be?
I think it is telling that the last staunch Team Royce individual I spoke with is a serviceman stationed in Afghanistan whose life experiences are not all that dissimilar to Royce.
"I think it is telling that the last staunch Team Royce individual I spoke with is a serviceman stationed in Afghanistan whose life experiences are not all that dissimilar to Royce."EXACTLY! Life makes us who we are sometimes :-(
Michael wrote: "Honestly thought, Elizabeth has been scary with her accuracy. Maybe she can write the next one..."Yeah right...wasn't it Isaac who said your brain was "badass". I only know so much becuse you played me like a fiddle - I think I fell for just about every trap you set - so I remember them well.
I'll make you a deal...you right the next one and I'll be the geeky fan girl in the corner going "oh my god...oh my god.."
Michael wrote: "There are two themes that run through the story. One I touched on lightly in the Afterword, concerning redemption. There is more to that topic insofar as Nimbus and Royce form one group and Arcadius and Thranic form the other. Both sets seek redemption for sins, but the two groups have very different ways concerning how to go about it. I’ll leave that there for now ..."Gah...he giveiths and he takeith away. You compliment me for being so smart then put this out here and I am completely stumped and have no idea. Don't answer right away thoguh I want to think on it a few days and see if my brain can pull it out.
Michael wrote: "Yet what Royce is trying to express in the “Nature of Right” chapter in Nyphron Rising, is a very diluted and simplified philosophical argument (that actually has it’s basis more in objectivism vs subjectivism) that two exact opposites can coexist without disproving the other. ..."Now you are just making my head hurt!
Isaac wrote: "EXACTLY! Life makes us who we are sometimes :-( ..."Are we talking about the old "nature" verses "nurture" are we born 'as us' or do we become 'us' by events that we experience? I've always been of the opinion it is a little of both.
"Are we talking about the old "nature" verses "nature""No that's more a by-product, in this point at least. Consider that some people live what many would consider horrible lives, and yet believe themselves privileged, even lucky, and most of all happy.
How the world is might be how you want it to be.
The point in Riyria, is too lightly touched on to make much of an impression, so don't spend much time thinking on it. One day I suppose I'll have to write a "deep" novel, but I suspect it won't be near as much fun to write or to read.
Ooops - I meant nature verses nurture. I think I may be like many here that don't care much about what you write in the future... I'm "in"...just don't write crap and I'll keep buying.
Aaaaaah, see crap is in the eye of the beholder. I liked "A Burden to the Earth" because it's an eye opener, but much like a book about an early Royce, it's not for the feint of heart.Pretty sure a few people on this board wouldn't like it, but it's personal preference.
And I agree with Elizabeth completely. It is a little of both or there wouldn't be exceptions to the rules in both categories.
You can't tell me living in death camps didn't affect all those Jews anymore than convincing me that a lifetime of treatment can cure certain Mental Health problems like Autism.
Some people are born a certain way, some people are made a certain way. Some people are both.
I finished this morning, brilliant. I cried. Archie, I agree that he is selfish and would love to be emperor but do believe he loved Modina - if only because she was pretty. In the end he did intentionally sacrifice himself for her.
Amilia was sweet and I loved the interplay with Genny and Breckton, although hated her when she was being mean to Arista. Her heart was in the right place.
I guessed that Royce would be the Heir but hadn't picked up on Novron being an Elf or that Mercy was his daughter. I was trying to work out how she could be connected if Royce was. And what a nasty mid-wife who had seemed so nice in an earlier section to dump Royce and steal the medallion. That her daughter was involved only cemented that Mercy was Gaunts.
Gaunt was a tool but he did show signs of growth in that at the end he came forward in the potential fight with the imperial soldiers.
I cried when Royce was 'dying' and met Mercy. Even though I knew he had to live if just to keep Michael alive from my wrath. The way he kept apart from everyone now he's the Royce weknow and love shows how awful a book of his early days would be. Slaughter,kill, maim, no dialogue or interplay.
I thought it was so sad on the bridge when he was reunited with Gwen. She presumably read his future via Hadrian due to his elven blood. She seemed surprised that she was the person he loved most, so I assumed that she thought it was Hadrian that would die.
Loved Myron more and more as we went on. He went from amusing comments about horses to in depth feelings and word play with Royce and that conniving... Patriarch. Also, his helplessness when his sister hugged him was hilarious.
Likewise, I'm glad that Wyatt redeemed himself and that Magnus stayed safe.
Hadrian was awesome, I wouldn't mind a guy like that myself. I don't think he is naive he just wants to do good things. He knows people are bad and that he had done bad things. I loved his comments when he was supposed to be intimidated - do those swirls do something or are you just tiring your nuscles. The scene where he told Arista he loved her was another moment when I cried.
The pet, well that was hilarious. And the throwaway comments on translation. The one-liners have really appealed to me. Something that is lacking in fantasy and that I hadn't noticed before.
I want more books in the universe, Michael. I don't want a Royce to hate. I do want early days of the previous Empire or the Riyria pair. I think we need Royce AND Hadrian in the new books.
I love the name Thrace, where did you 'find' it?
Right, this must be the longest post I've ever made. I'm going but I may return with more...
Thanks for persevering with your writing, Michael.
Great Helen - glad you liked it.Archie - I think he "originally" fell in love with her (infaturation) because of her looks. And it's true he knew NOTHING about her - but still...I think although his heart probalby didn't grow three sizes it might have grown one and in the end he wasn't such a bad guy afterall.
Amelia and Arista - It showed the how protective of Modina she was - and there was also probably a bit of jelousy toward her. Amelia I think was more scared about the possible consequences and didn't want to stick her nose out too far.
I guess I never considered who Mercy's parents were - though I should have - I just assumed they were both dead and Arcadius was raising her. Thinking she was Gaunt's daughter though - was an excellent thought process.
Gaunt - he's my favorite 'love to hate' character - I saw him as sniffling, and weak, and self-centered - and oh I could go on and on. I was SO HAPPY that Hadrian decked him when he started to bad-mouth Arista - one of my favorite scenes.
Lol - I love what you've said about keeping Michael alive from your wrath. I had felt the same way about the romance aspect - and thought...if Michael doesn't put these two together - I'm going to hunt him down.
As to an 'early Royce' Yeah I can see where that could be bad.
I'm still in my re-read so don't have all the facts yet - but I think she thought it could be either her or Hadrian.
Yes MYRON!! He was so great...especially in the final book and with regards to the crypt scene...oh and with the Patriarch. I agree with Mauvin - he's my hero.
Magnus...to tell the truth I could take or leave him. He was such a flip-flopper that it became hard to be too attached to him. But I always did like Wyatt.
Yeah of the two I definitely in more of Hadrian than Royce's camp. He is my ideal of a perfect man...we need to find some machine that can clone fictional characters.
I also loved Gilly - man he could be a lot of fun. I'd like to see Royce return to Percepliquis one day just to spend some time with him.
I think we all want more Royce and Hadrian - and I agree - not a Royce that is a murderous cutthroat.
Nice post Helen!
"As to an 'early Royce' Yeah I can see where that could be bad.""I think we all want more Royce and Hadrian - and I agree - not a Royce that is a murderous cutthroat."
Another we'll have to agree to disagree on. "The Acts of Caine" series...selling fairly well considering it's about a murderous cutthroat worse than Royce in his viciousness and ruthlessness. "The World of Dezrel/Half Orc's" series...another one selling fairly well that's absolutely just brutal. I'd give that series an NC17 rating for the sheer brutality (a possessed girl raping a priest, how bad can you get?).
My point is a Royce prequel book or series would sell. Gauranteed. There IS an audience out there or these books I just mentioned would not be selling at all.
Whether Michael would be comfortable writing something that dark is a completely different matter.
You're welcome Helen. Thrace is just one of those names that popped into my head. I made a habit of making family names similar. Alric, Arista, Amrath--Theron, Thrace, Thad. I meant it to help readers see the family tree, but in the end I think it just made it confusing.
And no Thrace is not from Battlestar Galactica. Someone mentioned that once, thinking that is where I got it, but I wrote the books before the remake and long before I had seen any of it.
"And no Thrace is not from Battlestar Galactica. Someone mentioned that once, thinking that is where I got it, but I wrote the books before the remake and long before I had seen any of it. "but you have seen it.... :-P *cough* nerd *cough*
If seeing a few episodes of BSG is the nerdiest thing you will accuse me of...I am getting off cheap. Oh the stories I could tell. Hummm. Being an author that doesn't have quite the same effect, does it?
I liked BSG but then I do like a sci-fi programme!
Isaac wrote: "My point is a Royce prequel book or series would sell. Gauranteed. There IS an audience out there or these books I just mentioned would not be selling at all. Oh I don't doubt it would sell. (I'm secretly hoping that anything Michael writes would sell) But would it be something that I want to read? Probably not. I love Royce and am glad at his transformation - do I want to see him as someone I would hate? Thanks but no.
Yeah - it was great wansn't it!!
Bryan wrote:
'Royce muttered and coughed, "My friend is going to kill you." hahahahaha...I started laughing so hard when I read that.
Got that straight -- I loved that whole fight scene. Very well done.
Bryan wrote: Myron, I love him more than words can say. He is what we all should be. Enjoy the little things. Don't heed the trivial. Live each moment like it's your last.
Oh my YES!! We should all take a page from Myron's books and learn to be more like him.
Bryan wrote:
I guess Nimbus 20 pages before the end...though I guess at that point it was no longer so surprising. But i was still proud of myself. :)
I must be dense because I didn't realize until the feather fell. I was stunned...then started thinking back and kicked myself not for remembering the whole dagger thing and then I went ... duh... how could I have missed it. I suspect my re-reading will be more telling now.
Bryan wrote:
I hit Royce, though that was a guess without conviction, but made the most sense. Though I had it backwards as far as the ancestry.
Part of me "wanted" it to be Royce but I was taken in hook, line, and sinker by the start of the book. My problem was...OMG no one knows who the real heir is. During the climax of the fight I kept thinking to myself...how the hell is Mercy going to discovered? For some reason I thought one of the elves might "sense" her or something lame like that - I'm glad Michael was steering the ship rather than me.
Bryan wrote:
Never would have guess about Mercy in a million years for some reason. That one completely through me. Still trying to be vague for some people even though I know it says spoilers.
I was fooled too... as for the being vague...well no one who hasn't finished the book should be here - there's just too much to talk about.
Bryan wrote: Novron's ancestry was a surprise I must say. Very well done.
Yeah I didn't see that coming either. But started putting it together because of all the misisng heads. It seemed like a deliberate act.
Bryan wrote:
I can't believe it but...I liked Magnus by the end. Shows how you shouldn't judge a book by it's cover. He was only giving back what he had received all his life. Made me respect Arista all the more.
So did I. He was a flip-flopper to be sure you could see him struggling with the devil and angel on both shoulders.
Bryan wrote: Ok, I have to run!!! Talk more soon!"
Love to discuss it more with you - hoping you'll be back soon.