Dune
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The Golden Path
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To me, a simple (if somewhat reductionist) way to look at it is that it is the notion that humanity as a whole will evolve to the point that it cannot be subjected to any form of political or social control by any group. In order to accomplish this, Leto had to be come a superhuman catalyst.
While I agree with Jimbo. I do think that the golden path represents the best that humanity can attain. Herbert had a messiah fixation and I have always felt that he imbued each novel with the complexities of societies striving for and against perfect love.
But what was the ultimate goal? Hints and some details were given, but the overall strategy was kept elusive. Any thoughts on that?
It's been couple of years since I read them, but I always thought the Golden Path was mostly making concerned making humanity genetically immune from prescient abilities to see it's future so that it couldn't be manipulated as a whole by one single person or small group of people. I also understand part of it to be the great migration caused by his death as an extra means to make sure humanity was so spread out no one large scale disaster could ever extinguish its flame.But I guess that's pretty much what Jimbo said.
Holden wrote: "It's been couple of years since I read them, but I always thought the Golden Path was mostly making concerned making humanity genetically immune from prescient abilities to see it's future so that ..."Yep, you hit on two of the big things right there. One purpose seemed to be that Leto II wanted to bread prescience into as many people as possible, but to ensure that it was a limited, intuitive grasp of things rather than perfect prescience. The other being a humanity that could not be subject to any one authority or dependent on one resource (aka. spice)
There was also the suggestion that Duncan played an important role through the incorporation of a "no-gene". That's the genetic equivalent of no-ships and no-fields, where a person would be invisible to prescient sweeps.
The only question I had was, did the Golden Path end when Leto died or was it meant to end after his death, with his death being a necessary part of the scheme?
I always interpreted his death, thus causing the great migrations, as a major part of it. Didn't he say or write to himself stuff about how he knew his death was important and such? Was that all tied in with why he didn't want to know the moment it would happen?
Holden wrote: "I always interpreted his death, thus causing the great migrations, as a major part of it. Didn't he say or write to himself stuff about how he knew his death was important and such? Was that all ..."I believe he did know the moment it would happen. I could be wrong about that much, but I definitely found it intrinsic. I found some people who said otherwise though, who said that the threat of extinction was effectively neutralized in his lifetime. I disagreed, I felt the threat came in the form of the very threat the Honored Matres were fleeing.
But that's another point to discuss here. Just what did people think the Kralisec/Arafel threat was all about?
I'm Almost certain he talked about restraining from knowing the exact moment of his death. Just thinking back to the plot of the book the fact he courted the girl he was marrying when he died supports him not knowing his exact moment. Talking about all of this makes me want to read them all again asap...
I always interpreted Kralisec/Arefel as being some even that ended the human species and always read the great migration as having spread humanity out so much that it basically became impossible with them. The three times I've read the books I've always walked away with feeling the Golden Path and the Attradies/Leto II story lines that Dun through God Emperor center around as ending there. Leto completed the Golden path, and humanity moved on from that "story". I felt the books after God Emperor were just part of a new story with a new threat.
Holden wrote: " I felt the books after God Emperor were just part of a new story with a new threat."I certainly have to agree with you there. I need to reread the books (always a great read!), but definitely the Golden Path was completed at the end of God Emperor because of the breaking away from prescience. That's how I feel anyways. Like I said, I need to reread them.
There seems to be some confusion.As I understand it, Kralizec (the scattering) is what comes immediately after God Emperor. It's necessary to prevent the possibility of Arafel (the extermination of mankind by Ixian machines).
The golden path (Secher Nbiw) does not end at that point however. Leto looks forward to its continuation after the end of his reign.
It seems the possibility that people might stray from the golden path is removed by the end of the book. I don't think that means it's complete but I guess it's a matter of perspective.
J. M. wrote: "Holden wrote: " I felt the books after God Emperor were just part of a new story with a new threat."I certainly have to agree with you there. I need to reread the books (always a great read!), bu..."
Except that Leto mentioned how his awareness would continue as "pearls of consciousness" in the new worms. And Odrade and the other sisters mentioned how they were still in Leto's grip until the worms were eradicated by the destruction of Rakis by the HM's. Could have all been meant metaphorically but this seemed to indicate that the influence of Leto's prescience did not end with his death.
Outis wrote: "There seems to be some confusion.As I understand it, Kralizec (the scattering) is what comes immediately after God Emperor. It's necessary to prevent the possibility of Arafel (the extermination ..."
I'd also like to know, where does it reference this extermination by Ixian machines? That's come up over at the Jacurutu site numerous times and Istill don't know where it was mentioned in the books.
It's been years since I read the series, and I only read the first book more than once, so my memory of much of what is being discussed here is either vague or non-existent. But a lot of what's been said in this thread reminds me of some more recent reading about Kabbalah.
Today I found an article (http://baheyeldin.com/literature/arab...) that you all might find interesting. It goes into great detail about the Arabic origins of many of the terms Herbert used in his stories.
This article astounded me, because although I knew he used some Arabic terms and that the first book was pretty obviously a metaphor for oil and the struggles to control it, I had no idea he drew so much on Islamic and Arabic culture.
There is also some mention in the article's list of terms of Kabbalah. The Kabbalah involves paths - the paths between the Sephirot. A Golden Path would seem to imply the return path from earthly existence back toward spirit. It's my understanding that Herbert was deeply interested in philosophy and religious studies, so I would assume he was familiar with Kabbalah. Probably also with a Gnostic view, which also has to do with return to spirit as a goal. The En Sof in Kabbalah seems to correlate with the Pleroma in Gnosticism.
There are also parallels between Islamic mysticism - Sufism and Jewish mysticism - Kabbalah. A couple of articles that might be interesting: http://sologak1.blogspot.com/2009/02/...
and
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/stephen....
The Dune story is clearly messianic in nature, having a lot to do with charismatic leadership.
Herbert was clear, when he was accused of having started a cult, that he had no desire to create a religion. So I think one has to look at what he implied in his stories that was of a religious nature as being intended as a facsimile of a religion. But that doesn't mean his unconscious couldn't have had another agenda.
Matthew: "Do not fear the lxians," he said, and he heard his own voice as a fading whisper. "They can make the machines, but they no longer can make arafel. I know. I was there."Barbara: there's not only Judeo-Arabic elements but proeminent Daoist stuff in there plus lots of little references to different cultures. Among the less obvious stuff, I think there are a few words in Farsi for instance.
One of the names of Mu'adib is also the name of a proeminent medieval Sufi by the way.
Outis wrote: "Matthew: "Do not fear the lxians," he said, and he heard his own voice as a fading whisper. "They can make the machines, but they no longer can make arafel. I know. I was there."Barbara: there'..."
Yes, but he was referring to their navigating machine, wasn't he? The device which his people feared could even predict Leto II himself. I don't remember their being any other mentions of hunter-seekers or any other devices.
Barbara wrote: "It's been years since I read the series, and I only read the first book more than once, so my memory of much of what is being discussed here is either vague or non-existent. But a lot of what's b..."
No kidding! I've seen this site and even wrote into them. My comment is the last on the page:
http://baheyeldin.com/literature/arab...
It's a very fertile subject, but at the time of writing, the author had not yet read the books, only seen the miniseries. I found this surprising, seeing as how anyone who truly wants to appreciate the inspirations and allegorical similarities needs to start there.
Well, I think "they no longer can make Arafel" is pretty explicit. He's not talking about navigating machines. I suppose navigating machines would also have to be part of Arafel however (otherwise the Guild could prevent it).God Emperor makes many things explicit to those who have only read the first three books and are confused. It mentions the demise of the human species at the hand of Ixian hunter-seekers several times. Here's perhaps the most explicit instance:
"The lxians contemplated making a weapon-a type of hunter-seeker, self-propelled death with a machine mind. It was to be designed as a self improving thing which would seek out life and reduce that life to its inorganic matter."
"I have not heard of this thing, Lord."
"I know that. The lxians do not recognize that machine makers always run the risk of becoming totally machine. This is ultimate sterility. Machines always fail ... given time. And when these machines failed there would be nothing left, no life at all."
If you read God Emperor and had forgotten these passages, I recommend getting an electronic copy you can search for keywords.
I think the miniseries is pretty good by the way. It leaves out many things obviously and changes others, sometimes in ways I wouldn't have approved.
But some of the changes are for the best I think. They convey more clearly couple of things many have missed when reading the books in my opinion.
And I love the actor they cast for Leto II as well as the musicians who scored Messiah/Children.
Outis wrote: "Well, I think "they no longer can make Arafel" is pretty explicit. He's not talking about navigating machines. I suppose navigating machines would also have to be part of Arafel however (otherwise ..."No, I don't recall that. I have a hard copy of the book though, and am pretty good at remembering passages if I say so myself, so I'll check it out. One thing though, is that as explicit as it gets? If the reasoning is that there's a straight line between that story and what he said about Arafel, I'd day that's somewhat inexplicit. But I'll take your word for it until I can read it for myself.
My impression at the time of reading was that Arafel was a reference to how the Ixian navigation machines would never be able to usher in the same kind of life and death consequences that his own prescience had reproduced. But that was just my impression...
Speaking of the miniseries, has their been any word on when God Emperor was slated for release? News on that front has been sparse from where I'm sitting.
My understanding was they never had any intention to do God Emperor.Not long after the second one came out there was a big studio in talks/working on doing a big budget big screen re-make of Dune hoping for it to be the next lord of the rings. It got stuck in development hell and very recently was totally dropped.
Matthew asked: "is that as explicit as it gets?"The words "hunter-seeker" and "Arafel" are used only once and the link, while obvious in context, is not explicitely made. That's about as explicit as things get in Dune.
Consider the meaning of Arafel. The analogy was thought to be obvious enough for the audience of the Terminator movies.
Prescience as such is not the end of the world. And it's not that scary, especially for a character who is (somewhat) immune. Check out the vision during the desert trip. Maybe that's the link you're looking for.
Don't get me wrong though: Ixian navigation devices are very dangerous, as are all powerful machines. You might interpret God Emperor as implying that a complete dependency on them would ultimately be just as bad. Certainly that's not the Golden Path.
But that's much less explicit than the scary immediacy of the vision about the killing machines which justifies the God Emperor's tyranny.
The Golden Path is the program to genetically change (breeding program)humanity to being unseen by spiced influence.Opposite of Bene Jesserit
Leto's death restarted the worms to Arakis.
david e. wrote: "The Golden Path is the program to genetically change (breeding program)humanity to being unseen by spiced influence.Opposite of Bene Jesserit
Leto's death restarted the worms to Arakis."
That was part of it yes, where the Atreides descendents were immune to the effects of prescience, apparently because of Duncan's inclusion on the breeding program. But what was the end goal of this? Making sure that they would be latently prescient while also remaining hidden sounds like a battle plan.
Here's another question for all you guys. Do you think Brian Herbert of Kevin J Anderson understood any of this when they began writing their prequels/sequels/interquels to this saga?
The Golden Path isn't all of these tactics they are merely the means to the end goal -- Liberating humanity from all of the constraints that had stagnated the Imperium and placed all at risk of extinction from an external threat. The Wikipedia Article is quite good, though a spoiler if you haven't read further.
joby wrote: "The Golden Path isn't all of these tactics they are merely the means to the end goal -- Liberating humanity from all of the constraints that had stagnated the Imperium and placed all at risk of ext..."And what of Kralisec, the typhoon struggle at the end of the universe? It was not just a matter of ensuring humanity could survive a threat, it's strongly implied that he saw what that threat was.
Destiny
Sweetalpha135 wrote: "Destiny"Nice... concise. Any details you want you to add?
Matthew wrote: "Sweetalpha135 wrote: "Destiny"Nice... concise. Any details you want you to add?"
I edited my previous post.
Destiny - we tend to try to control the path or lives take, as if we know what we are meant to do or become. Rarely do we take into account the impact our existence and actions can have on the world around us, sentient or not. I think The Golden Path is The Optimal each of us can follow while still exercising Free Will. IF we all walked that path, the aggregate of our impacts and interactions would be universally positive, though individually we may not agree.I see Dune as more than just Sci-fi in nature. I see the series as a comment on social history through eyes of the author.
Sweetalpha135 wrote: "Destiny - we tend to try to control the path or lives take, as if we know what we are meant to do or become. Rarely do we take into account the impact our existence and actions can have on the worl..."I was referring to the more specific elements. Like the breeding of the Atriedes gene into as many people as possible, ensuring they had a latent sense of prescience instead of a full blown one. How breeding Idaho gholas in with the Atreides specimens would ensure they carried the "no-gene". And how ensuring that humanity was not constricted to one area of the universe or dependent on a single resource would ensure no single fate could claim them all.
That goes way beyond reaching potential, it sounds like preparations for dealing with a major threat. The question remains, was this to be any and all threats or something highly specific? Kevin J Anderson has all but admitted to me that Frank didn't indicate what that was in his notes and they made up their own ending, so the question remains an open one.
Your assessment is a good one. It reminds me of the fractal nature of Frank Herbert's writing in the Dune series. Everything is open to interpretation on scientific and biblical levels and at the same time there is just enough information to allow each reader to create new ideas each time the pages are turned.
Authors of that caliber are rarely published anymore. Mr. Herbert was wonderfully gifted and his books are a gift to his readers.
Matthew wrote: "Outis wrote: "There seems to be some confusion.As I understand it, Kralizec (the scattering) is what comes immediately after God Emperor. It's necessary to prevent the possibility of Arafel (the e..."
I think Leto II saw many threats to humanity. Ixians, stagnation, face dancers, lack of genetic diversity, etc. recall that he refers to himself as the wolf removing the weak. He intentionally and ruthlessly, becomes despotic to encourage the evolution of man.
The golden path is what he created by his actions and repressions, a diaspora of strengthened humanity. Remember, in Dune we have only 3 members of society that are differentiated towards superiority, Bene Geserit, Mentats, and the Guild. By the end of the God Emperor, it's clear that many have evolved the talents of those three groups.
Thomas wrote: "Matthew wrote: "Outis wrote: "There seems to be some confusion.As I understand it, Kralizec (the scattering) is what comes immediately after God Emperor. It's necessary to prevent the possibility ..."
Yes, but to what end? Multiple hints are given that this was in preparation for dealing with a threat. Leto's message which he left behind on Arrakis in his vault also seemed to address that. He challenged the BG to use the gifts he gave them and to follow his path, and it was clear this had to do with the impending fight they faced with the HM and whatever threat they were fleeing.
Keep in mind, this is based solely on Frank's original books. The ending involving robots does not apply here. Not for reasons of personal bias, I just want to keep it centered on the original work.