Ancient & Medieval Historical Fiction discussion
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What Are You Reading Right Now? ( Hwæt béon ðu bocrædung?)
Bryn wrote: "As a bad speller--and proud--I want to say, I was paying total attention to what the words mean. Not how to bloody spell them. I despised spelling lessons at school, but boy did I love my book clas..."Anybody who has read anything I've written here, probably can figure out that I'm in that camp:)
Laurentiu - don't sweat the small stuff - even those of us who were born into the endlish speaking world can't figure it out! :D
Terri wrote: "That sounds interesting. As mentioned in this group before, I don't like his YA, but I like the way he writes adult fiction."Sort of how I felt about Stephanie Meyer and her Twilight series. And then I read
and found that to be a real treat. Still waiting for the next two books in the trilogy.
Marina wrote: "Started the audiobook of 
. Was amused to discover young Vespasian speaking like a Scauser :D"I've got the book version of this one, but haven't got around to reading it yet. I look forward to hearing what you think of it, Scause Vespasian and all.
Thank you for the kind words and encouragement you are showing me. I judge myself too much in anything. When it comes to English, it is a low self confidence habit developed in recent years due to my best friend. He is fluent and he does it without any effort, it's like a 2nd nature to him. We made presentations together - for four years in a row, at least a dozen; and for me those moments were terrible, he being always first and me always wanting to be as perfect as he was. Arghhh. Told him so many times about it and laughed, but that feeling I still have it in me when it comes to English, both writing and speaking - one of deep insecurity in my capabilities. I've for a while accepted the fact that he is more gifted but haven't overcome my opened wounds.
Anne,
The Rosetta Stone program seems nice. Haven't heard of it until now, but I haven't been looking so... I hope that I can at least reach fluency in English. There is always THE WORK, it seems to cut the wings of many, hopefully I'll be able to cope with both.
.
Terri,
Funny link! :)
I've started Pride of Carthage and so far it's decent, nothing notable so far. I'm currently at the point where we get a portrait of each of Hannibal's brothers. I hope to get more reading tonight.
Marina wrote: "Started the audiobook of . Was amused to discover young Vespasian speaking like a Scauser :D"Might go a long way to explaining why Italians are so good at the footie.
Linda wrote: "I am right now reading Amgalant One: The Old Idealby our own Bryn Hammond."
That is an awesome book. i really enjoyed it.
I'm halfway through Napier's 3rd Attila Attila: The Judgement and finding it a more ordinary book than the 2nd. If I met this on its own I wouldn't care too much. At least I can do something else today.
Laurentiu wrote: "Thank you for the kind words and encouragement you are showing me. I judge myself too much in anything. When it comes to English, it is a low self confidence habit developed in recent years due t..."
Yes I can see how that would undermine your confidence, Laurentiu. When our friends are so much better at something that we are struggling to master it is hard not to feel self conscious. Whether it is English, a sport, beauty, anything.
Marina wrote: "Started the audiobook of . Was amused to discover young Vespasian speaking like a Scauser :D"Good to see it is not only me. I considered reading this, I even considered it for a group read poll. I downloaded a sample and I found the same thing with the dialogue. It was awful.
Terri wrote: "Marina wrote: "Started the audiobook of . Was amused to discover young Vespasian speaking like a Scauser :D"Good to see it is not only me. I considered readin..."
Would you please give this ignorant American a quick sample of Scauser language? I am assuming this is the way people from Liverpool talk? Of course, Vespasian did come from the country. Is this probably the author's way of conveying a bumpkin-y accent -- like maybe the equivalent for us Americans
might be The Adventures of Tom Sawyer/Adventures of Huckleberry Finn????
As Italians, I don't think Romans should ever talk Pommie slang, but many authors writing about Romans do it. I always find that odd.Here is an example of Scouse.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4vxN9...
If you can bear the first 13 minutes, Jimmy Carr gives a few examples of British accentshttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GOalSV...
Jane wrote: "Terri wrote: "Marina wrote: "Started the audiobook of . Was amused to discover young Vespasian speaking like a Scauser :D"Good to see it is not only me. I con..."
Hi mate, its ''Scouse'', a very thick accent, full of its own words...Baltic = very cold, Divvy = Idiot.
C's are often pronounced as K's
Karm down = Calm down.
D wrote: "If you can bear the first 13 minutes, Jimmy Carr gives a few examples of British accentshttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GOalSV..."
lol! Excellent. :)
Terri wrote: "As Italians, I don't think Romans should ever talk Pommie slang, but many authors writing about Romans do it. I always find that odd.Here is an example of Scouse.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o..."
Ok, now that I've understood what "Scouse" means (I swear I do NOT speak like that) will someone be so kind to explain what Pommie is?
From Wiki: The term pommy, pom or pommie, in Australia, New Zealand and South Africa, usually denotes a person of English heritage or origin.
Oh thanks. I don't know why I don't think of Wikipedia before pestering everybody. Sorry.
I'm willing to bet you weren't the only one wondering, so it's probably good that you asked. I don't think anyone should think they're bothering others when they're trying to educate themselves. I find it courageous.
Then I'm so courageous that I'm almost a hero!
Don't be sorry, now everyone will know. :)Besides, more conversation is always a good thing....
Yes--I knew what a Pommie is because I am one, but was ignorant what Scouse is and scaredy-cat to ask.
Bryn wrote: "Yes--I knew what a Pommie is because I am one, but was ignorant what Scouse is and scaredy-cat to ask."And Pommie comes from being pompus...l'm one also.
No it don't! {does it...?} I wus never pompus in me life. I'll have to disown the name if that's the derivation.
mmmm...reading it could also mean ''Prisoner Of His Majesty''.....interesting
That's what I heard. Prisoner of Her/His Maj, and I like that one, so I'll go on thinking that happily to myself.
Terri wrote: "As Italians, I don't think Romans should ever talk Pommie slang, but many authors writing about Romans do it. I always find that odd.Here is an example of Scouse.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o..."
I loved The Course of Honor
which probably doesn't fit in with your criteria -- basically the story of Vespasian and Antonia Caenis, his lifelong mistress. V. speaks regular English, from when, as a young man, he meets her through his becoming emperor. The only hint of his country background is that he calls her "lass" all through the book, which I suppose you could take as a rural expression. Only a small touch of colloquial expression seems just right.
Hmm. I am not sure where Pom really came from. But it's what the English are over here in Australia. Poms or Pommies. :)
Hi Jane,yes, but if it is colloquial to modern day rural England it still shouldn't be used by Romans as they were Italians. Any slang, in my opinion, should be what is traditionally used in Italy.
If they are picking up accents and slang from Britannia during the Roman Occupation, it wouldn't be a cockney slang, or lazy slang as English did not exist yet. The locals spoke tribal tongues.
I always find it frustrating when in Roman Historical fiction the Romans sound like English Squaddies (soldiers). They weren't English soldiers, they were Italians. They should say 'mama mia'!!! :D
"...here we go again..my, my, how should I resist you...?"
lol. i was always told it comes from the french for apple pomme, as it was apples we gave the convicts/settlers and sailors eat to ward off scurvy.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternat...
usa calls us limeys because of the lime juice given to prevent scurvy.
Hmm. I don't subscribe to the apple Apple Pomme theory. Not too many French immigrating to Australia and there is no other French influenced words in the Aussie slanguage.I thought one of the other two mentioned was true. Stands for Pompous or Prisoner of His Majesty.
i must say i have never heard of those you mentioned Terri or the ones on the wikipedia page.
Terri wrote: "Hi Jane,yes, but if it is colloquial to modern day rural England it still shouldn't be used by Romans as they were Italians. Any slang, in my opinion, should be what is traditionally used in Ital..."
You have a point. There's probably some kind of Italian equivalent of "lass", say, "ragazza".
Another thing, I don't like the use of the common Anglo-Saxon swear words in any kind of ancient history novel. Technically, those words would be anachronistic. Seems to me there would be obscenities in Latin, Greek, or in other ancient languages that could be used. I have disliked several series because of the [to me] uncalled-for language, which is so extensive it overshadows the story. I've had to give these books away.
Terri wrote: "Hi Jane,yes, but if it is colloquial to modern day rural England it still shouldn't be used by Romans as they were Italians. Any slang, in my opinion, should be what is traditionally used in Ital..."
Maybe they would not say "mama mia", since wouldn't that refer to the Virgin Mary, so would be anachronistic. But they could say "Bona Dea" [good goddess] who was one of their goddesses.
A thought: Vespasian was in Britannia [with the II Legion]-- maybe he could have learned the word "lass" there. :)
Except 'lass' arrived in Britain with the Vikings/Anglo-Saxons, so... unlikely to be learned by II Legion.
Terri wrote: "D wrote: "If you can bear the first 13 minutes, Jimmy Carr gives a few examples of British accentshttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GOalSV..."
lol! Excellent. :)"
Another funny thing is that Jimmy Carr is Irish, though you wouldn't think it from his own accent
Is he, Tim? No you wouldn't know it. I am not familiar with the guy. I have seen his face a couple times, but not much.
Hi Jane,That mama mia. Don't worry, I was joking. ;)
Re: Vespasian in Britannia/lass
That is what I was referring to back in message 1917.
There was no Anglo/Germanic (as English has Germanic origins) yet in Britannia Only native tribal. Think Gaelic and Celtic tongues.
Those are the sounds Romans would have heard in Britannia during the occupation.
There would be no rural or village slang/accents like you find in Medeival Britain as they were tribal communities.
On swearing. I totally agree. I can handle one or two F words in a whole book, but I don't like a lot of swearing in a book. It sounds contrived to me. Like the author is trying too hard.
The whole swearing/dialect thing is a constant dilemma for writers of historical novels, I believe. The question is, how far do you go in the quest for authenticity? If you throw in Latin swear words, why not put all the dialogue in Latin? And why not? It worked for Mel Gibson after all in his movie Passion of the Christ. I believe the idea of having Roman soldiers swear like British squaddies is to portray the essence of their characters through modern analogy, rather than an attempt to annoy or shock. It works for a lot of people but similarly it annoys a lot of others. Its probably a no win situation -as my mum used to say, "one man's meat is another man's poison". A reviewer once complained about the number of characters in a book I wrote who had "Irish" names, even though the book was set in medieval Ireland so it was sort of unavoidable.You guys will really hate my new book, which has Roman cavalry troopers who swear like-well-troopers.
:-)
I don't actually think they should swear like anything. Not latin or other. Just leave it out, in my opinion. Or include it infrequently. That makes for the best books. The ones with none or little swearing. It is hard enough for a writer to succeed in not making his character's dialogue seem modern. Too much swearing only undermines that.
Roman soldiers sounding like British Squaddies just doesn't make sense. They may as well have Romans talking like an American Marine from Boston or an Australian soldier. They are as connected.
As we're saying here, The Romans in Britain, the Britain peoples, they are hundreds of years behind the development of English slang and swearing developemnts.
Romans are Italians. Writers should spend some time listening and interacting with modern Italian soldiers. That would make a lot more sense.
Speaking of Australian soldiers...I have hung up hist fic for the rest of the month, and am reading;
The Accidental Guerrilla: Fighting Small Wars in the Midst of a Big One
Gratuitous swearing has no place anywhere, however people are people and haven't changed through the centuries, and classical writers record the fact that Roman legionaries used bad language as much as their modern counterparts. The issue for a writer is how do you get that across? Having swear words in Latin but other dialogue in English risks the potential of having characters sound a bit like those in "'Alo 'Alo" or Inspector Clouseau. The history of swearing itself is an interesting topic that I think we've covered on this forum already somewhere. Most of our modern English swear words were just everyday words for the Anglo-Saxons, for example. The "c" word appears frequently in Chaucer's work, though I'm not convinced he wasn't using it to offend.
I enjoy using gratuitous swearwords. :)And I would have to agree to disagree on whether the overuse of them in Hist Fic. I think people have changed immeasurably over the centuries.
I used words growing up my parents didn't know, kids these days are using words I don't know and only learn so I don't go out of fashion. The English language is constantly evolving.
Interesting subject we have here in regards to swearing.To me it adds authenticity , for example l would never say ''Oh dash, he cut my leg off ''
If l see swearing in ancient fiction l imagine they are using the equivilant (sp) swear word, just written using todays language to get the point across.
It can work the other way for me, take a show like ''Eastenders'', in reality a four letter word would be used every second line.
l can't write worth a darn, so l hope this makes sense.
Terri wrote: "Hi Jane,That mama mia. Don't worry, I was joking. ;)
Re: Vespasian in Britannia/lass
That is what I was referring to back in message 1917.
There was no Anglo/Germanic (as English has Germanic or..."
Hi Terri,
Re: Vespasian/lass/swearing
Thanks for the etymology lession. I should have looked it up myself. What are dictionaries for?
Yes, I realize what the Romans heard would have been akin to Scots Gaelic or Welsh.
The books I've enjoyed the most put the emphasis on story or character development, with some local color.
Those written 50-60 years ago, such as The Dark Angel The Three Legions
have no or minimal swearing, despite other probable shortcomings, such as too much romance in the first, but excellent description of the Fall of Constantinople. The 2nd, about the Teutoberg Forest, did not have the archaeological information we have today and the history is a bit shaky. But the author got the characterizations just right, I feel. Of course there are much more recent books that meet my criteria for a good read.
I'm hooked on the Maureen Ash Templar Knight mysteries! Just finished book 3: A Plague of Poison and on to book 4: Murder for Christ's MassThis could make an interesting TV series. I could see Alan Rickman cast in the role of the Templar Bascot de Marins. (Althought the age of the character in the book is given as a bit younger I picture Rickman in my mind as I read the story.)
Ancient & Medieval Historical Fiction
Books mentioned in this topic
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Authors mentioned in this topic
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I like what I am reading enough to want to read it. I am simply squeezed for time at the moment.