The importance of negative reviews?

[Justin]

Georgina wrote: "Justin wrote: "I see negative reviews like this. No one's going to want a negative review but not everyone's going to like your book. It's good to have negative reviews because it makes the book mo..."
You can unpublish it just like that? Wow lol

[[deleted user]]

Justin wrote: "Georgina wrote: "Justin wrote: "I see negative reviews like this. No one's going to want a negative review but not everyone's going to like your book. It's good to have negative reviews because it ..."

Press of a button! :) But I'll blog about it first, and I'm not going to do it until my novel's out.

It's not that I'm embarrassed about the story, no glaring mistakes, I'm happy with the writing, but it's rushed.

Fools rush in...(which will probably be the title of my blog about it--I'm learning from my mistakes).

:) Georgina.

[Sarah]

Georgina wrote: "I'm going to un-publish the first short story instalment in my fantasy series in a couple of months as I agree that it's rushed and the characters aren't filled out enough (It's going to my developmental editor)."

To which Justin replied: "You can unpublish it just like that? Wow lol "

To which Georgina cavalierly claimed, "Press of a button! :) But I'll blog about it first, and I'm not going to do it until my novel's out."

And to which I'll say this:

Careful, Georgina, you cannot "unpublish" a book after you've already sold a copy/copies. You can (and sounds like, should) release a new, improved, "edited" version but that will not be a different book, it will be what's called an "edition" in the publishing world. Once you publish a book, it's published, period f'ing dot as they say in military circles.

Publishing, legally (internationally) means to distribute widely and offer for sale. Given the internet is as wide a distribution as possible and you did receive money for at least one copy, you have officially published the book. No button in the world will make this untrue so no, you cannot "unpublish" the book. Even if you give the money back to every single customer, you cannot undo the reality that the book WAS already "offered for sale" and WAS already widely-distributed.

I suggest you blog about the need to re-edit and plans to release a 2nd Edition and yes, you can "remove from sales distribution" with the click of a button, but legally (and for good business sense) you really should call the "new & improved version" that you later release after your developmental editor finishes with it a "2nd Edition." You don't need a new ISBN but some publishers have actually assigned different ISBNs to different editions to distinguish them and be able to track the sales separately. It's a good path to follow (hint hint)

Justin I don't know if you were kidding or serious, but I hope my remarks validated you if serious and amused you if joking ;-)

-sry

[Justin]

Sarah, the Webbiegrrl Writer wrote: "Georgina wrote: "I'm going to un-publish the first short story instalment in my fantasy series in a couple of months as I agree that it's rushed and the characters aren't filled out enough (It's go..."

I was being serious. To think a book could be un-published kinda got me so i was really asking.

[[deleted user]]

Sarah, the Webbiegrrl Writer wrote: "Georgina wrote: "I'm going to un-publish the first short story instalment in my fantasy series in a couple of months as I agree that it's rushed and the characters aren't filled out enough (It's go..."

Thanks, Sarah. Very good advice.

I call it unpublished because that's how smashwords describe it, then you can archive the story. No sold copies for this story but about 1000 or more free downloads, so I will definitely do as you say and explain that it will be re-released (which it will) in a better revised edition (I'm also going back to it's old title and combining it will the novella Meng).

Georgina.

[[deleted user]]

Sarah, the Webbiegrrl Writer wrote: "Georgina wrote: "I'm going to un-publish the first short story instalment in my fantasy series in a couple of months as I agree that it's rushed and the characters aren't filled out enough (It's go..."

Sarah, does it mean that those people who have downloaded it or have it in their libraries, will then lose it? Is it better to do this another way? Love some advice here.

Georgina.

[Experiment BL626]

Georgina wrote: "Sarah, the Webbiegrrl Writer wrote: "Georgina wrote: "I'm going to un-publish the first short story instalment in my fantasy series in a couple of months as I agree that it's rushed and the charact..."

I don't believe so. I bought a story on Smashwords and later have an author "unpublished" it so he can partake the KDP thingamajig but I can still download the story on Smashwords. The story may be gone from his author's board, but it's not gone from my board as a reader.

[[deleted user]]

Experiment wrote: "Georgina wrote: "Sarah, the Webbiegrrl Writer wrote: "Georgina wrote: "I'm going to un-publish the first short story instalment in my fantasy series in a couple of months as I agree that it's rushe..."

Thanks, Experiment. I don't want to rip anyone off (free download or not) but this story and the novella are booked in with my dev ed (it will also have a new cover and title).

I'm sure there are many other writers who have unpublished stories, especially with the view of making it exclusive with KDP Select. It's not a flippant decision, I have thought a great deal on this. But it's definitely for the best. I think readers will understand.

:) Georgina.

[Sarah]

Georgina, first of all my comments were addressing the concept of publishing, not the concept of doing this specifically on Smashwords--just generally, or anywhere, everywhere, e-publishing and print publishing.

Now, second, regarding SW specifically, yes, they call it "publishing" but that only fulfills part of the legal definition of "publishing" which is the part of offering a work of writing (fiction or non-fiction) widely for distribution to the public. Smashwords' dashboard "action" called "publishing" does that. However since you can set the price for FREE, it is not technically being offered "for sale to the public" which is the other part of the legal definition of "publishing."

Okay, 3rd and again, specific only to Smashwords though other places may have simliar situations I'm just replying to what you asked, Experiment is exactly correct. Once a reader "buys" a book (even if it was bought for no money--priced at FREE or vis a vis a coupon which discounted the price to $0.00) the reader has access to the version of the file that was called "the book" when they "bought" it and any/all future versions of the file that might be uploaded.

This is the problem with talking about digital files versus "publishing." The terms are not exactly interchangeable. Close, but not exactly. For instance, I never "unpublished" Dicky's Story but I did upload about 20 "versions" of it and depending on when someone "bought" it, they got multiple "versions." It only has one published edition but across the 1000 or so downloads, there were definitely 20 or so versions--and I have no clue who downloaded which version or if someone (or many someones) downloaded multiple versions. I released ONE edition. Period.

If you change the name, change the content AND change the pricing from FREE to some monetary value, it really should be a new book not a new edition. Then again, if you never assigned an ISBN to it, it won't really matter which way you do it as no one can officially track or document it without an ISBN. They would have only their own internal tracking methods, none of which are legal systems. Only ISBN numbers and Library of Congress are legal in the US. Now other countries (like yours :-) have their own means of tracking books "published" (and books PUBLISHED). You should check in with your local librarian to ask for help understand copyright laws and publishing procedures in Australia. It's definitely a little different (not entirely but a little).

Well I just worked 24 hrs of physical labor at the day job in 2 days so I'm beat and hoping to do a whole day of editing tomorrow. G'night! Or um, G'day! :)

-sry

[[deleted user]]

Sarah, the Webbiegrrl Writer wrote: "Georgina, first of all my comments were addressing the concept of publishing, not the concept of doing this specifically on Smashwords--just generally, or anywhere, everywhere, e-publishing and pri..."

Thanks Sarah!

Yes it will have a new title, new cover (by my cover artist, Eirylsa:):)), and new content and it will also have a price on it too. But I did assign the original story an ISBN through smashwords.

I will seek advice about the copyright and publishing procedures in Aust.

Good night to you. It's midday here and I've just been harvesting vegetables for market for the last five hours. Time to collapse in front of my computer.

:) Georgina.

[Mia]

I only read negative reviews. My favorite place to read reviews is on Amazon because they allow commenting - and some rabid fans can be really vicious when someone critiques their favorite book.

Five star reviews tend to simply gush, and I rarely get anything informative out of them. The negative reviews tell me a little more information, which is the whole reason I read reviews.

[Bridget]

Mia wrote: "I only read negative reviews. My favorite place to read reviews is on Amazon because they allow commenting - and some rabid fans can be really vicious when someone critiques their favorite book.

..."

I am always more curious about the negative reviews as well. I want to see what it is that bug people about a book. Is it they hated the characters, found it hard to relate to, was it poorly edited or just not the type or story or ending they wanted.

For me, I just got my worst review (a two star on Amazon) and while I of course always want the best review possible I was glad to see the reasons that it was a given a two. It was stinging still to see someone dislike what you wrote so much, but the beauty of it was that the person simply didn't like the story. It wasn't the editing, it wasn't that they didn't understand it, but that the reviewer didn't find it to his taste. I said it nicer than the reviewer did, but I'm writing this post so I get to make the word choices here. LOL.

[[deleted user]]

Bridget wrote: "Mia wrote: "I only read negative reviews. My favorite place to read reviews is on Amazon because they allow commenting - and some rabid fans can be really vicious when someone critiques their favor..."

Hey Bridget, I beat you hands down! I've recently had two, one star ratings for the same story on Barnes and Noble. "Wouldn't even keep it in my library..."

[Bridget]

Georgina wrote: "Bridget wrote: "Mia wrote: "I only read negative reviews. My favorite place to read reviews is on Amazon because they allow commenting - and some rabid fans can be really vicious when someone criti..."

It does sting a bit doesn't it. You begin to wonder, "What did I ever say that was so mean to you!" Then you realize that it's just the story they didn't like and not you and move on...well...start to move on anyways.

[[deleted user]]

Bridget wrote: "Georgina wrote: "Bridget wrote: "Mia wrote: "I only read negative reviews. My favorite place to read reviews is on Amazon because they allow commenting - and some rabid fans can be really vicious w..."

I'm cutting and pasting one of the one star reviews (for interest sake):

"I wouldn't keep it in my library, but I suppose its fine for what it is. A dieing man embracing death in the most physical way he can. It did not do much more for me then that, would have been nice to feel what the main character was feeling more, I feel no real connection, nor do I feel why he is so adverse to dieing. Good enough for thirteen pages I suppose."

One star is a strong reaction, and it's even stronger when they feel the need to share their opinion. It doesn't offend me. But I do wonder about the line "nor do I feel why he is so adverse to dieing..."

I'm not as precious about my short stories, they are really only out there so people can get a chance to sample my writing, but my novel is my baby. I'm positive negative reviews for Sorrow's Child will hurt.

[Bridget]

Yes, any review can sting no matter how prepared we think we are for it. The most important thing is to try and take away something from even the most negative review and try to improve upon that with your next work.

[[deleted user]]

Bridget wrote: "Yes, any review can sting no matter how prepared we think we are for it. The most important thing is to try and take away something from even the most negative review and try to improve upon that w..."

Yep. And to try and get those critical reviews before publishing. For me that means my developmental editor and beta readers. Then my copy editor. But I'm sure there will still be readers that don't like it.

[Bridget]

Just look at even some of the most popular selling books out there...someone always is going to dislike or down right hate what you do. The trick is to find more that like you than don't.

[[deleted user]]

Bridget wrote: "Just look at even some of the most popular selling books out there...someone always is going to dislike or down right hate what you do. The trick is to find more that like you than don't."

I wondering how many general readers post reviews? I've had over 2000 downloads (those that I know of) for my short stories in the last couple of months, and a total of about fifteen reviews. Almost all of the reviews through goodreads.

[[deleted user]]

Georgina wrote: "Bridget wrote: "Just look at even some of the most popular selling books out there...someone always is going to dislike or down right hate what you do. The trick is to find more that like you than ..."

I'll add that 99% of my stories are free (hence the number of downloads). My novel will be priced at 4.99. Then we'll see how many people download it! :) Georgina.

[Bridget]

Georgina wrote: "Bridget wrote: "Just look at even some of the most popular selling books out there...someone always is going to dislike or down right hate what you do. The trick is to find more that like you than ..."

I know that I don't post reviews as often as I should. I am working on improving that because I want readers to review my work. I think honestly, if people buy a book and enjoy it they are more likely to tell their friends than write a review. So I'm hoping they are doing that if they aren't reviewing it. I also figure at least it hasn't made them so angry that they go say how it is, so there is good and bad involved.

[[deleted user]]

Bridget wrote: "Georgina wrote: "Bridget wrote: "Just look at even some of the most popular selling books out there...someone always is going to dislike or down right hate what you do. The trick is to find more th..."

It's tricky. Goodreads is all about reading, but authors reviewing other authors can be fraught. But I can't resist, even though I've been trying hard just to blog my recommendations, if I really enjoy a book I want to leave a review. I'm stepping carefully though. Unless I've read a good portion of the book and I know I like the style, I don't tell people I'm reading their books. It's a bit chicken, but I'm the non-confrontational sort. I don't write bad reviews, I just don't review those books at all (that especially goes for books that need heavy editing).

[Bridget]

Georgina wrote: "Bridget wrote: "Georgina wrote: "Bridget wrote: "Just look at even some of the most popular selling books out there...someone always is going to dislike or down right hate what you do. The trick is..."

I totally get the being chicken part, I'm right there with you. I feel bad if I read someone's book and don't care for it for any reason. Sometimes, you want to be supportive of other writers and read something they wrote and it is just not in your style. In saying that though, I worry it comes across as a cop out. Authors reviewing other authors is definitely a minefield.

[Sarah]

Not to (re)divert your side convo, Georgina and Bridget, but I wanted to reply to Mia and the followup Bridget posted. The comment about only reading negative reviews and not bothering with the positive ones.

@Mia, I usually find just the opposite is true. The negative reviews don't usually tell me constructively what's "wrong" with the story but rather those reviewers usually make personal attacks on the author (use a lot of "you" framed remarks about their "obvious" skills or lack thereof). I find the gushing reviews to be a bit ridiculous at times--if it sounds too good to be true, it probably is--but usually when someone's really enthralled with a book, they're motivated to take the time to write something thoughtful rather than releasing an emotional blast of disappointment (or anger) at having spent money and not getting the "Satisfying Reader Experience" that is the Contract with the Reader.

@Bridget, I find the positive reviews tell me what's right and wrong, but I am also curious about the negative reviews and hopefull that one or two will actually discuss the book, not simply trash the author.

I think the bigger problem with the reviews is the fact that authors don't actually write good product descriptions so there's a slight level of "bait and switch" going on. Or at least, I believe that might contribute to the lack of a "Satisfying Reader Experience" at The End.

-sry

[Barbara]

writing that blurb is a whole different writing skill than writing the story... copy editors working in advertizing are probably better than fiction writers with that!
And also we confuse what needs to be in a query letter and what needs to be the blurb of a book... not the same thing at all, unfortunately...

[Heather]

I tend to write reviews of almost all books that I read. It is really hard when I don't like a book, but I will still review it. I hate it when people attack the author, so I try and keep my reviews to the technical reasons I didn't like the book. I would never want to be the person who makes another person feel that they should give up on trying to write. It takes so much courage to put yourself out there and I applaud that. I feel that when writing a negative review that you should be professional about it and write with constructive criticism rather than being a jerk about it.

[Experiment BL626]

Heather wrote: "I tend to write reviews of almost all books that I read. It is really hard when I don't like a book, but I will still review it. I hate it when people attack the author, so I try and keep my revi..."

I have to say, it's odd how some readers think book reviews should be constructive. I wonder what makes reviewing books so different than, let's say, reviewing movies or foods. People hardly blink when they see a review saying "this movie sucks" but they do when for a review saying "this book sucks."

I believe it takes more courage to become a movie star. There a lot of things a movie star cannot control, but they get bashed for it anyway. They get bashed all the time, just look at the tabloids and celebrity news-shows.

What makes authors so different from other public figures? What makes reviewing books so different than reviewing other things? And has anyone here ever written a constructive review on how the 1 dollar hamburger at McDonalds should be cooked healthier and tastier? Why should a review be constructive for 1 dollar stories, but not for 1 dollar fast-foods?

[Heather]

I guess I have to say that the way I review is the way I typically live. I tend to think the best in people and I think that you can help them grow by giving constructive criticism instead of helping them wither by being a jerk. Since I don't tend to review movies or McDonalds, I think I am safe in reviewing books the way I do. Obviously everyone thinks different and who is to say who is right and who is wrong. When it comes to reviewing most anything, it all just comes down to an opinion. Except for the hamburger at McDonalds... that may just come down to science. ;)

[[deleted user]]

Experiment wrote: "Heather wrote: "I tend to write reviews of almost all books that I read. It is really hard when I don't like a book, but I will still review it. I hate it when people attack the author, so I try ..."

Several issues raised here. Are indie books priced too cheaply? Does this cheapness undermine credibility? Are indie writers assigning too much value to reviews?

We learnt about assigning value and an aura to art, in art school. It's the whole high art, low art, with painting up the top. Ever notice how many non-art people are unwilling to express their likes and dislikes? It's because art has its aura, history and status, and people are nervous about revealing their lack of knowledge. Silly but true. It's the Emperor's New Clothes. People with no position in the art world don't get to review, they can sometimes add their feedback to a comments book, but that's it.

Books are for the people, mass-produced. Now with the internet everyone can be a critic. And indie books don't have an assigned worth from a publishing house. Are people viewing our books as fundamentally inferior to those from the big six? Does this lower their appreciation of our work, despite what and how we write?

Oh, had to add too, I don't think actors cope so well with negative reviews either. In fact what public figure wouldn't flinch at negative feedback?

And Morgan Spurlock reviewed McDonalds in his documentary 'Super Size Me'. But he's no random reviewer.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0390521/

I'm trying not to pay too much attention to reviews. I'll listen to my editors. In the end if I'm satisfied with a story, that's what matters. Of course I hope the reader will like it too, but sometimes that's just not going to happen.

[Experiment BL626]

Heather wrote: "I guess I have to say that the way I review is the way I typically live. I tend to think the best in people and I think that you can help them grow by giving constructive criticism instead of help..."

I like to add a disclaimer that I too am a reviewer of a sort, like once in a blue moon, and that my current reviewing policy is the constructive criticisms shtick.

Back on topic.

There's a lot of assumptions being made here. 1) Author read reviews. 2) Author should take reviews as critiques. 3) Readers are in a knowledgeable position to advise authors so.

So here's my thinking:

1) Some authors do, some authors don't. I only know for sure two authors who have read my reviews only because I chatted with them afterward. The rest, I don't know. But I think it would be arrogant for me to assume all my reviews have been read by their appropriate authors.

2) Here's the thing, are you reviewing for the author, for the reader, or for yourself? If you're reviewing for the author, it's hard to be honest because you have to consider the author's feeling. More likely than not your review ends up being an advertisement instead of a review because you don't want to hurt their feelings. And let's be honest, everyone of us here who use the internet knows an advertisement when they see it.

If you meant your review to be a critique, isn't critiquing the job of the author's editor? How can the "critique" help now that the book is published? Is it supposed to help the next book?

3) Even if authors do listen to us reviewers, are we in a position to advise them so? I have no Literature degree, I just read for fun. What makes my opinion in a review so special that authors will take action on it? For all they know, I could have read the first three chapters and the last three chapters and review the book based on that. Moreover, I have to assume I'm the author's target audience. Just because they write in my favorite genre, it doesn't guaranteed the book was meant for me as a reader.

BTW, I'm not asking these questions in expectation that you will answer, I'm asking them in a general, kinda rhetoric way if that made sense. There's no right or wrong way to review. Let me repeat: there's no right or wrong way to review. I just like discussing the intentions behind reviewing and why some people do or don't do.

I agree people shouldn't be jerks. However it is my belief that authors should separate themselves from their works. Authors have feelings, books don't. For example, if I tell you my favorite color is green and that I hate the color black, that doesn't mean I hate people whose favorite color is black.

I also believe some people shouldn't be authors. For example, Snooki.



If you don't know her, she's a reality TV show star that drinks alot, fights alot, sleep alots, drama alot. She got five books documented by Goodreads at this present time. Just because a person can string some words together doesn't mean they can become an author. (I have nothing against Snooki, I just believe she should stick to making TV shows and trashy-looking clothes.)

Georgina wrote: "Experiment wrote: "Heather wrote: "I tend to write reviews of almost all books that I read. It is really hard when I don't like a book, but I will still review it. I hate it when people attack th..."

Yeah, some actors don't. But the attention they received sometime do makes them more marketable.

I watched that documentary, I ended up craving for a burger. Poor dude. If he had my metabolism, he would never gain a pound.

I remember reading an editorial on DearAuthor.com about how readers view books. There's a dual perception that books are arts and books are mass-produced entertainment products. I'm more in the mind of the latter.

[[deleted user]]

Experiment wrote: "Heather wrote: "I guess I have to say that the way I review is the way I typically live. I tend to think the best in people and I think that you can help them grow by giving constructive criticism..."

I agree with all your points, very strongly. Especially the part about separating from our work. But it's hard. Self-pubbing a book is like sending your child to school for the first time. I'm thinking the best way to get over the over-protective feelings is to work on the next book.

[[deleted user]]

And why do publishers take on celebrities who can't write, let alone read a book? They'd flop as an indie. Hah! That's revealing isn't it? We have to be good enough at writing to stay the distance. Publishers take on a celebrity, get a ghost writer if the writing is too terrible, pump money into the much publicised release of their books--and it's still crap.

[Experiment BL626]

Georgina wrote: "Experiment wrote: "Heather wrote: "I guess I have to say that the way I review is the way I typically live. I tend to think the best in people and I think that you can help them grow by giving con..."

Thank you. =) And yeah, no kidding. Sometime when I see authors who read reviews whether it be for good or bad, I think: Why are you procrastinating? Shouldn't you start writing your next book? That book ain't gonna write itself, ya know.

This especially so if the author is BNA and juggling series and I'm a huge, huge fan of them. I want the next book soon. I want it now. I want it then when I finished the prequel. Please stop obsessing over reviews and finished writing the next one.

Time is money, your money.

[image error]

I know, I know. Authors aren't readers' bitches. But come on, have some pity on the fans. *puppy eyes*

Georgina wrote: "And why do publishers take on celebrities who can't write, let alone read a book? They'd flop as an indie. Hah! That's revealing isn't it? We have to be good enough at writing to stay the distance...."

Probably because fame is a fickle mistress and the celebrities want to milk it as much as possible. Not only so, looks fade. Once you hit 30, there's only so much plastic surgery can fix before it's saggy and then plastic-y. Botox is a poison, there's so much you can have in your face before you're dead.

[[deleted user]]

Experiment wrote: "Georgina wrote: "Experiment wrote: "Heather wrote: "I guess I have to say that the way I review is the way I typically live. I tend to think the best in people and I think that you can help them g..."

Yes! Same goes for promotion, spamming or splogging (they're sploggers, so I assume it's called splogging). I'm just not doing it. I'm going with Barb's advice, write, write, write. If the work's good enough and people enjoy it, they'll find it. Hopefully that's not my naivety showing. :)

As a reader it really frustrates me when writers take eons to finish their next book. George R R Martin falls into this category. Granted he's created an incredibly complex plot and it seems to go on for ever, but there were years and years in between books! At one stage he had 'Don't ask' posted on his website. But I still love him none the less!

And luckily we writers have a long shelf life! I think, like wine, we probably get better with age. :)

[Patricia]

Georgina wrote: "Experiment wrote: "Heather wrote: "I tend to write reviews of almost all books that I read. It is really hard when I don't like a book, but I will still review it. I hate it when people attack th..."

You ask why your opinion should count, since you read for fun? I think most authors write for the readers, not for their old English teacher. Oh, sure, it's wonderful to hear that your writing is concise and descriptive, etc. But I want to hear someone who loves to read say, "I loved this story! Couldn't put it down." A positive review from an avid reader is enough to make me swoon. A negative review that tells me why my story didn't work for you IS something I consider as I work on my next piece.

Reading for fun makes you eminently qualified to give an opinion, IMHO.

[Justin]

Whoa..I just saw Snooki and a Futurama post..ahh!!

[[deleted user]]

Justin wrote: "Whoa..I just saw Snooki and a Futurama post..ahh!!"

I love the threads in this group. :)

[Barbara]

Georgina wrote: "And why do publishers take on celebrities who can't write, let alone read a book? They'd flop as an indie. Hah! That's revealing isn't it? We have to be good enough at writing to stay the distance...."

that's why ghost writers make more money than indie! ;-) I doubt any celebrity actually wrote his/her book - except maybe Ethan Hawke (I read his first novel in the 1990s)! ;-)

[[deleted user]]

Barbara wrote: "Georgina wrote: "And why do publishers take on celebrities who can't write, let alone read a book? They'd flop as an indie. Hah! That's revealing isn't it? We have to be good enough at writing to s..."

I doubt many celebrities have read their own book. :)

[Sarah]

Barbara wrote: "writing that blurb is a whole different writing skill than writing the story... copy editors working in advertizing are probably better than fiction writers with that!
And also we confuse what needs to be in a query letter and what needs to be the blurb of a book... not the same thing at all, unfortunately... "

Barb, you are SO SPOT ON with this!!

Blurb writing is 100% the writing of sales copy (so "copywriting" in its truest form). Granted sales copy might include some "fictions" but writing sales copy is definitely not the same as writing fiction--and most fiction writers are incapable of separating themselves, emotionally, from the story enough to sell it rather than telling it.

Absolutely also true re the blurb versus query letter. I think query-letter-writing is an artform unto itself. It's also a form of sales pitch, but not quite the same as the marketing blurb for a potential reader. Then again, I've bought a book or two off the query letter that sold the book to the editor (I read the query letters while researching how to WRITE a query letter--and got hooked on the story!)

This thread has sidetracked wildly in just a few hours wow! I'm not sure Snookie knows how to read/speak English (or American) but certainly she is NOT a novelist and should NOT have been placed (artificially awarded) onto the NYT Best Seller list by her publisher ... but it was a money issue not a literature issue.

There's one celebrity writer whose eloquence and artful storytelling actually stunned me when I started reading his memoir: Rob Lowe's Stories I Only Tell My Friends. I got the book from the library and then ran out of time to read it (it was only a 1 week loan and I was way too busy when I finally got my turn in the 300+ queue for the book). I need to buy this book and read it at my leisure. He's really amazing on so many levels. One of those actors who got a really raw deal out of the way the media treated / portrayed him.

Sometimes, the celebs become the lie, just like any other self-fulfilling prophecy. I hate the way our media works these days. We really should stop worshipping celebrity personalities. it does our country no good....and definitely lowers us in the eyes of the world.

[Sarah]

Patricia wrote: "You ask why your opinion should count, since you read for fun? I think most authors write for the readers, not for their old English teacher. Oh, sure, it's wonderful to hear that your writing is concise and descriptive, etc. But I want to hear someone who loves to read say, "I loved this story! Couldn't put it down." A positive review from an avid reader is enough to make me swoon. A negative review that tells me why my story didn't work for you IS something I consider as I work on my next piece.

Reading for fun makes you eminently qualified to give an opinion, IMHO. "

Patricia, the danger is the point made earlier, one I just love: readers are not professional reviewers. They're just people. Some authors levy expectations onto readers that really are a bit unreasonable in terms of how to write a "review." Readers are writing what you describe--a reaction, not a review. A professional critic writes a review.

I definitely think the readers' opinions weigh more heavily in my mind than any professional reviewer's critique would.

[Sarah]

Experiment and Georgina both made similar remarks "As a reader it really frustrates me when writers take eons to finish their next book."

To which I want to reply: not all writers get the luxury of writing full-time. I quit a major power job with high pay rate back in 2005 to become a full-time writer (my savings only lasted one year and I was still researching how the industry worked in 2006 and just BARELY had a handle on it, though I had started edits on the book I'm about to release) Back in 2005 I made this kind of condemning remark at my newfound "colleagues" who were working full-time jobs and had a family and were trying to write at the same time. I found fault with them the way you are for not finding time every single day to write, just a little.

NOW the shoe's on the other foot.

Now, I work 2 jobs, still barely have money for rent and have to struggle to guarantee myself 4-6 hrs a day 2 days a week to focus on my writing (and being here on Goodreads responding to this post is one of many, many reasons that's 4 rather than 6 hrs some days)

Having only 8-12 hrs TOTAL per week versus the 16 hrs a day, 7 days a week I had back in 2005-2006 is a HUUUUUUGE difference!! I cannot freakin believe how slowly this work is going at this rate of 1-2 days a week. I just start getting going, getting a rhythm and momentum and am in the story in my head and *wham* time to go back to the day job or do something else. It's actually painful some days to have to leave my writing to deal with the annoyance of real life.

So traditional publishing invented this concept called an Advance. That's a debt. A loan. They "lend" you money against the promise of future sales and then deduct your debt to them from your royalties until your Advance is "paid down" and THEN you start earning royalties. Theoretically. Most traditionally published authors NEVER see a royalty payment. They never pay down their Advance, even the $5000 to $10,000 ones these days are struggling to pay down but the 6-figure ($100,000 and up) absolutely never get paid down. You get a whopping big Advance and you're done. The point is for you to use that money to pay your bills and focus instead 24/7 on writing the next book.

That's the theory. That's traditional publishing model. That's NOT the Indie Publishing model where we still have to work the day job or try living in our cars or on the sidewalk. I'm actually looking at this this June when my lease runs out, as I haven't got enough money saved up to move and can't stay. Unless I get this book out and earn enough money before June to pay 3 mos rent to move, I'm burned.

And under those conditions, certainly not writing the next book. Sometimes, you just never know what's going on in other people's lives.

Just because you enjoy a writer's storytelling, don't assume they're blowing you off by not writing the next book. If you want to HELP, do something. Write reviews, blog about it, urge others to BUY (not get for free) literally give "patronage" to the Indie Author and that'll help get the next book written.

In 2007 when I first started having to look for work and worry about paying bills because my investment income was no longer paying out I probably spent more time worrying than I did thinking about my writing--while I sat at the keyboard, distracted by money.

There's a great business/marketing/strategy model called 1000 True Fans. Organizations like "Fundable" and "Kickstarter" were established specifically to help independent artists (more inventors, creators, designers, some film makers and visual artists but still...there are a few publishing kickerstarter projects) do just this - get patronage, the old fashioned way :) One Patron At A Time.

Click through the Technium site to the 2 articles at the bottom of the page (the "Update" section) to read illustrations of artists who give real numbers from their real finances and relate how 1000 True Fans did (or did not) make a difference in their life and ability to create their art. VERY enlightening to read the musician's tale.

Nothing's ever what it seems, eh? :) That's what I love about life--it always makes me wonder.

-sry

[Barbara]

Sarah, the Webbiegrrl Writer wrote: "Barbara wrote: "writing that blurb is a whole different writing skill than writing the story... copy editors working in advertizing are probably better than fiction writers with that!
And also we c..."

The New York Times bestseller list is rigged for the Big 6!
And I've read an excerpt of Rob Lowe's book on Vanity Fair (the part about The Outsiders, and Matt Dillon was my first Hollywood love because of that movie, LOL) so I want to read that too. Probably ghost written, but I do want to read what Rob has to say, haha! :-D
And I started blogging after reading about the 1000 True Fans theory (in Be the Media), I aim to 5000, but I still have to reach 4995! ;-) Some writers add a "donate" button on their blog... sometimes it works... just a thought!

[[deleted user]]

Sarah, the Webbiegrrl Writer wrote: "Experiment and Georgina both made similar remarks "As a reader it really frustrates me when writers take eons to finish their next book."

To which I want to reply: not all writers get the luxury o..."

I understand about shortage of money. When I met my husband we both agreed we weren't marrying for money. He was an apprentice chef, I was an artist, working at the ANU. It's always been a struggle financially. Now we grow and sell organic veggies.

I started writing seriously in 2001. At first I was delighted that writing didn't cost anything. Producing art and having exhibitions costs money. For my last major show at my ex Sydney Gallery, I spent over 1.5k on the framing alone. Art doesn't sell. But of course writing needs time and time is money.

I agree, the traditional publishers advances are like loans. Random House Aust offered me a 8k advance in 2007, but that money wasn't going to come in one hit, it was a part now, part after edits and rest on publication (nine months down the track). Take away tax and 15% agent fees and I doubt the money would have lasted long (but I declined the bid on the advice of my agent). And of course if the first book doesn't sell and the publishing house loses money, they won't take on the next book.

But it's a juggling act isn't it? Enough time to write, enough money to live on? And I don't know about you but I can't write when I'm tired and I need to get back into the feel of my story each time I return, so snippets of time aren't as constructive.

The patron idea is good, but I'm rubbish at asking or pitching myself. So second hand clothes and home-done haircuts are here to stay.

:) Georgina.

[[deleted user]]

Barbara wrote: "Sarah, the Webbiegrrl Writer wrote: "Barbara wrote: "writing that blurb is a whole different writing skill than writing the story... copy editors working in advertizing are probably better than fic..."

Everything is rigged for the big six! :)

[Sarah]

damnit, I need to remember NOT to ever change windows when I'm composing a comment here on my iPad - the whole thing just went away.

Regarding Rob Lowe, I saw him when he made the rounds promoting the book here on all the talk shows and he was asked repeatedly if he'd had a ghost writer. He insisted he had not. He actually IS that eloquent. Apparently, he's more capable of stringing together words than are the writers who provide him with the lines he reads. Remember, as an ACTOR all he does is read what lines he's given. In the book, he got to write the lines.

Re the 1000 True Fans model, it's so contagious, isn't it? Be sure to click through to the 2 follow up articles: The Case Against 1000 True Fans is pretty amazing given it's "real data" from "a real person." I'm pretty sure it's a real person ;-) You never know but the musician makes it seem more applicable to the Indie Author model than does Brian at the Technium (the original author of the blog)

The NYT Best Seller List is based 100% on sales figures. The way it is "fixed" is that the traditional publishing houses can "pre-sell" books. I don't just mean Amazon's "pre-order" button; that concept is done in actual bookstores, too. So yes, some books falsely enter the ranks. Other books, however, really deserve it.

I'm reminded of one example where Ballantine Books was convinced the book would actually FAIL and instead, it ENTERED the NYT Best Seller List at #3 -- and went up from there. I'm talking about Force of Nature by Suzanne Brockmann. She's been on the list before and her fans were eagerly awaiting the release of FON specifically because of the exact same reason Ballantine was convinced it would fail to sell: the main romance of the book was a gay male couple, one of whom was a regular character in the previous 14 or so stories of the Troubleshooters Series and pretty much one of the fans' favorite characters. Even after FON reached #1 on the Best Seller List, Ballantine stood by its decision to forbid Suz to ever publish man-on-man sex in a mainstream romance novel. Soooo stupid. It's been a couple of years, and a fan just yesterday posted to Suz's Facebook Page (she has one just for fans of Jules, the gay FBI agent) furious that there was no sex scene, just a "fade to black" break in the book.

The NYT Best Seller List is not necessarily the best measure of a book's success (or failure to appear there a measure of its failure). Refer back to the start of the convo + 1000 True Fans for why :)

-sry

[Sarah]

Georgina wrote "But it's a juggling act isn't it? Enough time to write, enough money to live on? And I don't know about you but I can't write when I'm tired and I need to get back into the feel of my story each time I return, so snippets of time aren't as constructive."

I can't (easily) either but that's what I have to do. I have no choice. I'm exhausted, I want to just watch TV and nap and instead, I have a day and a half "off" so I guilt myself if I don't get at least a solid 6 hours of editing or writing in during that time. Stopping to check email or twitter or reply to Goodreads posts are my "breaks." Not much of a break I guess but I take what I got.

It's hard to use tiny snatches of time in a constructive way and it's taken me several YEARS now to get the hang of it (since 2007 and it's what, 2012?) but I'm starting to learn how to turn on and off "at will." Or almost anyway.

Re advances--not "like" loans; they ARE loans, make no mistake. And all of the publishers everywhere offer 2-4 payments of the Advance. One on signing to motivate you, one when you make some kind of delivery, usually like you said, the first draft for content editing, one possibly after you've signed off on copy edits and/or Galleys and possibly they'll hold back yet more until the book's released. Advances are then held over your head as if you got some great big gift and why are you looking for royalty reports.

All in all, it's not as great a deal as it sounds. I'll still want to pursue it to have at least ONE traditionally published credit to my name--for the credential not the money--but I'm plenty happy with Indie Publishing. It's hard, it's a LOT of work and takes fooooorrrrreeeeevvvvveeeerrrr but eventually, once I have 2 or 3 books out and can automate some of my promo work, eventually I'll be able to live off my writing. That's my goal. I don't need to make huge amounts, just enough to not have to work a day job. I can easily turn out 3-4 books a year if I can do it full time. But part time? It's been ...5 years? Actually, I wrote the first draft of Conditioned Response in 1986 (haha) if we want to get picky about it.

[[deleted user]]

Sarah, the Webbiegrrl Writer wrote: "Georgina wrote "But it's a juggling act isn't it? Enough time to write, enough money to live on? And I don't know about you but I can't write when I'm tired and I need to get back into the feel of ..."

A relative once said to me 'Gina, it's been five years and you are still not published. Isn't it about time you gave up?' I replied, 'Actually, it's been eight, and no, I have no intention of 'giving up''. The comment made me so angry. I had to go outside to avoid possible charges of manslaughter (:)). I couldn't believe the lack of tact.

Now I'm self-published, but I'm afraid to say that has no worth to that particular family member.

I think there are many misconceptions about writing. And then there's the fact that it can take years to write something and only a couple of days to read. Writing is for the driven and the stubborn (IMO), how else could we continue without those attributes?

[Sarah]

Georgina wrote: "A relative once said to me 'Gina, it's been five years and you are still not published. Isn't it about time you gave up?' I replied, 'Actually, it's been eight, and no, I have no intention of 'giving up''. The comment made me so angry. I had to go outside to avoid possible charges of manslaughter (:)). I couldn't believe the lack of tact. "

OMG, I thought I was the only one who had family members who said this sort of thing. Actually my brother-in-law (sister's husband so technically, stranger to me) was the only one who was always supportive of my creative needs and ultimately, he turned my vilest denouncer (my mother) into my staunchest supporter (before she died).

I'm positive readers don't really internalize how much time goes into creating a book for them to read--and the less time it takes to read (the smoother, the easier, the more irresistible the pacing it is) typically, the more time it probably took to create and polish to that level. That's the irony.

I don't know about driven and stubborn but I am definitely not a quitter. I dislike the idea of quitting just on principle. Sometimes, however, there are stories that just won't ever make it into a reader's hands ;-) Knowing when those times have arrived is...an art form unto itself. With haters like you and I have survived, though, the lines blur. It's important to ONLY listen to your own soul about things like that. Not easy but important.

-sry

[Chris]

>You get a whopping big Advance and you're done. The point is for you to use that money to pay your bills and focus instead 24/7 on writing the next book.

Yes, that's the theory. But I know a lot of professional, traditionally published writers, and I don't know any making a living exclusively from traditional publishing. Some have supportive spouses who pay the major bills. Others still have full-time jobs.

I've heard several mid-list authors (mainly mystery writers) who said that once they started self-publishing their backlist, they were making a living for the first time ever and could quit their day job. Of course, these were people with a fan base, and usually eight or 10 out-of-print books ready to republish.

I decided to go indie when I started writing for adults under the name Kris Bock, even though I don't have a reputation under that name, because everything I was hearing about the state of the traditional industry right now is bad, while opportunities in self-publishing have exploded in recent years. I made $600 last year from my indie books, but the numbers are heading upward, and I'm comfortable with the path I'm on. It still takes luck, but doesn't everything?

Kris Bock