Brain Pain discussion
St. James Infirmary
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Tell Uncle Siggy all about it
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The Infirmary! I remember when I was in school and the kids pretended they were sick to have a nap in the infirmary, I will just lay myself on the floor for a bit while I organize my thoughts, k?
Mod
k...
First of all, Siggy, I'm much more on Plato side than yours. Psychotherapy is way too esoteric, philosophical concepts fit me better. But I feel optimistic about CBT. And I also have some text to share.
I don't like the word disease since it presumes a normal ideal behaviour written in who's manual? For a siamese its state is not pathological but conditional. If my state is my condition to exist, how can my state constitutes pathology? Being myself one of a kind. I don't say my condition doesn't aggregate incoveniencies and death risks nor do I negate the moderated use of halopatic medication in my routine or extreme measures in nights of crisis, but I think is of good tone to stress that I'm not sick nor I'm diseased, my body is rebel, it's at the most a deficiency of which pathological agents and myself are the most innocent. Whose fault is it? Of the DNA off course, who ever programmed it is of very bad taste. (talking about my asthma and allergies here)
I also don't like the expression mental disease. Skipping the phase of presuming the ideal and normal even because life and the human mammal are not normal in the universe, the ideal for me is being x-men or to live in the matrix. The mental disease would only be curable if it's not a condition and if it is we can only soften it. The mental disease would have 3 possible origins: organic, mental or hybrid. Even if the origin is organic this alone doesn't prove the mental disease needs it's conditions of origin to persist. And even if it does, a substance that disturb the cerebral biochemistry aggregates risks to the mental health that comes to be admirable its use with medicative intention. If the origin of the mental disease is mental how to conjecture that a medicine will provide to the neurons the command to annihilate the disease?!
If the origin of the mental disease is hybrid and even if we managed to destroy it's origin and its conditions of maintenance we would come back to the problem of the question above.
I would love to hear the neuroscientist's thoughts about those matters.
Filipe,You know, Filipe, I think of "normal" not as "ideal" but what falls under the fat part of the bell (normal) curve. That's not necessarily ideal -- for example, when it comes to intelligence, athletic ability, sexual desirability, artistic creativity -- you want to be under the thin part of the skews.
Filipe -- It is fun once in awhile to pull
The Bell Curve: Intelligence and Class Structure in American Life
by Richard J. Herrnstein from the shelf and see the arguments made. Fairly controversial when released, it now belongs more to the back waters, but still poses some interesting observations and questions. I don't own a copy, but skimmed parts of our library copy a few months ago. I don't know how available it might be in Brazil.
Mod
And I also have some text to ..."
"Disease" and "Mental illness" clearly have negative connotations in society. And certainly "normal" is hard to define. But a loved one who is suffering hurts just the same, no matter what words you choose to describe their pain.
So maybe we can speak of "normal" as a person being stable and balanced enough to function in day-to-day life. Getting enough sleep, having an appetite for eating enough food to maintain the body, being calm enough to deal with other people in the course of daily activities inside and outside the home.
What most societies expect, and what most often triggers intervention, is a person who acts in a dangerous, aggressive, or life-threatening manner towards themselves or others. Once that line of societal expectation is crossed, then 'the authorities' demand that the individual be diagnosed and treated in some way, and of course, this is where the label "mental illness" is applied.
Jonathan Franzen wrote a long article in the April 18th edition of the New Yorker. Part of the article was about David Foster Wallace and the period leading up to his suicide. Franzen states that Wallace had "suffered" from mental illness for most of his adult life. He sought treatment from therapists and took medication to stabilize his "disease". Apparently, about a year before he died, Wallace discontinued his medication and in one form or another, short-circuited his therapy sessions. He continued to struggle with his disease and his life and ultimately chose to hang himself by the neck in his garage.
Whether or not Wallace was "normal" or whether he was innocent, or whatever words or philosophical arguments you wish to apply, he is dead.
You can chose whichever side of a philosophical argument you wish, because an argument is an abstraction. In the flesh, you must choose to seek treatment if you need it, or not seek treatment if you believe it is your right to do so. Wallace chose to discontinue his treatment and discontinue his life. His choice...
Jim, that's precisely the point I wanted to hit. In the end it's more than abstractions, it's about peoples lives. People seek treament or are sent to treatment to be "cured" or to get better enough to enjoy their lives without compromising others, some manage only to minimize their pain but how different this is from a drug addict that tries to forget the world?! I wonder if those people are really being treated, are really getting better, are really not zumbified. I like the concept of functional impairment, if you have developed a functional impairment you can/should seek a treatment.You are talking about a case, this Wallace probably killed himself because he couldn't cope with his mental disease without the medication he refused to take.
Let me brief you about my case, I was 15 and I considered teachers, the subjects, the classmates dumb and myself just normal. Then my parents cornered me to go to a psychiatrist since every consersation was like that: - how was your work today, dad? - Good, have you thought about going to the psychiatrist? - Haven't decided yet, can I go to Ricardo's Party? - Off course, just not friday's afternoon since you have to see the psychiatrist. I tried to accept the so called treament because I used to believe in people with diplomas and the doctors have been keeping me alive in this body since I was just born, in my childhood the hostipal was the third place I was most of my time. Then the psychotropics killed my moods, my eidetic memory, phrases with more than 4 words, my balance, my saliva (too much or too little), vibrations in my legs, arms and hands so I couldn't walk, bath myself, read, write, brush my teeth, auditory, visual and tactile hallucinations, nightmares, panic attacks, intense sweating, faintings, dizziness. Things I never had before, and they said I was getting worse and should take even stronger medicines, they said if I abandon the treatment I would grow geometrically more crazy with the pass of time. I was locked down in a madhouse, lost the school year and got stigmatized in the small high society of my town, which I was part of. It's been 5 years without drugs and I feel as good as before those episodes, in late 2006 I changed cities and been discovered by myself and the USP teachers: I have intellectual giftedness and the others aren't dumb, they are just normal.
Bill, normal is even worse than ideal (which woud be maximum desired), normal would be minimum required. I meant in the previous text "ideal normality"= normal, "ideal success"= ideal.
Lily, I'm giving a look. Thanks. (:
Mod
Sorry to hear about your struggles. "Normal" is quite possibly the most dangerous word in society. If you act too far beyond the borders of normal, someone, often those closest to us, will take action to bring us back in line, no matter how much damage or trauma it causes.
I've never been a parent, but my guess is that parents want to do everything they can to help their children be happy, healthy, and of course, normal.
It's clear from your writing that you have the "intellectual giftedness" that you describe. I'm guessing you are now independent of your family, so you can use your gift to research who and what you are and choose how you wish to care for yourself. Maybe the biggest challenge is to put the madhouse and the nightmares in the past. I'm twice your age and definitely spent too many years trapped in the past with family dysfunction and trauma. I encourage you to move forward. Write, paint, sing, and go to Ricardo's party!
Things are better already and I intend to make them even better. I wasn't aware of the gutenberg project and feedbooks you mentioned in the other post, I'm really more interested in trying ebooks now. Thanks for sharing.
Mod
You're welcome!
Project Gutenberg is an amazing archive. Enjoy!
Filipe wrote: "Things are better already and I intend to make them even better. I wasn't aware of the gutenberg project and feedbooks you mentioned in the other post, I'm really more interested in trying ebooks n..."There is a great search engine for ebooks called Inkmesh that will find the files on Gutenberg, feedbooks, amazon, B&N, MobileRead, ManyBooks, Kobo and more.
Mod
Whoa! How cool is Inkmesh?!!?
Jim -- not sure the Ulysses text you cite is going to be available in the U.S. -- at least I find no indication yet on Amazon. When I search by ISBN, I don't get a match and a special ISBN search offered via Amazon gave me non-U.S. sites as sources.I do find on Amazon a 1,200+ page book of annotations by Don Gifford and Robert J. Seidman. It does NOT include the text of Ulysses itself! (Before I decide whether to order it alone, I need to check if it is likely to be keyed to the text I have -- it talks about "current" edition links and mine certainly is unlikely to be, but maybe "close enough?")
Mod
Yes, another member pointed that out today. The first run must have sold out. My copy was released November 24. Looks like the next run is due for release December 20th.
The edition I have is based on the 1961 Bodley Head edition. This 2008 edition, also with the Declan Kiberd Introduction, but without the extra notes, is available with this ISBN # if you don't want to wait until the 20th: 978-0141182803
My problem is not "waiting" -- I have both CDs and a book of the text; besides, many argue for reading or listening through a first time without digging into the allusions -- just take the story for what it is. But, I can't tell from the description on Goodreads if the edition you suggest includes the text or is only annotations.
ISBN 978-0141182803 seems to be available w/o cost in its Kindle version. I wonder if the Kindle version will REALLY include the Declan Kiberd introduction. Editions are not something about which I totally trust Amazon listings.
It's going to take me awhile to understand the full significance of "1961 Bodley Head Edition." This article, I believe previously cited by someone, will help (maybe -- I have worked at it twice now):
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archi...
Mod
The edition I have includes the 933 page version of the text, plus another 260+ pages of notes. Here's a link to the Penguin page
http://www.penguinclassics.co.uk/nf/B...
Thanks, Liz. (:I'm already reading Swann's Way thanks to you people and the ebooks. I will try to read A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man before the BP's discussions about Ulysses begin too. I like to read books in chronological order and haven't read anything by Joyce yet.
Thanks, Jim.I tried the US Penguin site. Hopeless, only four James Joyce books came up on a search!
Still am confused about how to tell if an edition is based on 1961 Bodley Head edition. My own sense is that the American reading public has been careless about these issues of differing editions and this in turn has encouraged careless or non-existence information in product descriptions.
Mod
I tried the US Penguin site. Hopeless, only four James Joyce books came up on a search!
Still am confused about how to tell if an edition is based on 1961 Bodley Head edition. My o..."
I posted some more information about this in the new 'Ulysses - Spine 2012' folder. Also, look at the "Editions in Print" section at the bottom of this wikipedia page
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulysses_...
Trying to figure out what all this group is reading when is giving me a headache. "Upcoming books" shows the start dates of six works, but leaves out Proust (eventually buried in one of the Proust threads I do believe I saw a mention of Jan. 15th?)Please oh please, Jim take pity on us poor overloaded readers and post a master schedule with all the various works scheduled to be read/discussed, with the overall time allotment and whether it is spine, cluster, or lit-crit.
Mod
Sorry about that Liz! (Of course, if you have a headache, then the group is functioning perfectly - LOL!)
Yes, the Proust Volume 2 discussion begins on January 16th. The reason a schedule isn't posted yet is because the Discussion Leader, Andreea, is working out a logical scheme for splitting up the book into reasonably sized bites of around 60 pages per week. There are two primary texts
Within a Budding Grove - various versions of the Moncrieff translation
In the Shadow of Young Girls in Flower - translated by James Grieve
Naturally, the pagination is different. So, Andreea is in the process of locating the corresponding page numbers for the versions at the points where the discussions begin for each week. I'll check in with her today and see where we're at. Last time we talked, the plan was for 10 weeks of discussion, beginning January 16. Will post the page details soon!
I have a group email planned for the weekend and will incorporate a master schedule into the message.
Can't figure out where to post this, so will just plop it down here.Several months ago (before Jim created Brain Pain), I wanted to read something by David Foster Wallace, but wasn't at all certain I was interested in tackling his more ponderous works. At the time (there may still be) there was a goodreads site dedicated to his work. The suggestion from them was to start with A Supposedly Fun Thing I'll Never Do Again: Essays and Arguments . I don't know what we are in for with Infinite Jest (although rumors of those long footnotes seem a bit off-putting), but I can say that I have been thoroughly enjoying that group's recommendation, even if I only read 80% (probably done) rather than 100% of it. I would suggest it as a good warm-up and introduction for anyone with trepidations about his (perhaps) magnum opus.
Happy New Year!The link is via a friend who usually forwards good ones. You may not agree with every one, but I hold out at least the majority of these wishes and dreams to you all for the year ahead.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x91rBz...
(I am posting this on my three most visited groups (visited by me) so be wary of duplication!)
Lily wrote: "Happy New Year!The link is via a friend who usually forwards good ones. You may not agree with every one, but I hold out at least the majority of these wishes and dreams to you all for the year ..."
Your good will is gladly enjoyed. (:*
And thanks to our host too! Jim, how was your new years eve? Sao Paulo was too cold for summer and rainy, but I wrote a new chapter from my book that night so I was/am happy anyway.
Mod
And thanks to our host too! Jim, how was your new years eve? Sao Paulo was too cold for summer and rainy, but I wrote a new chapter from my book that night so I was/am happy anyway..."
New Year's eve was spent with family enjoying dinner and conversation. New Year's day was a five-hour long feast of French cuisine. Champagne for an aperitif with olives and nuts and various little appetizers. Then soup with a red wine Chabrol, followed by foie gras and gizzards served with a sweet white wine. Continued on to smoked salmon, with a different red wine. After that, a beef roast so tender it was like butter served with wild cepes and another red wine. Then a platter of cheese and red wine. Then a sweet chocolate dessert called 'concorde' served with more champagne. Then coffee followed by a delicious digestif liquer... and so five hours of feasting in the French countryside.
Today, I fast a little bit...
Hope you all enjoyed your New Year's!
Good to hear you're working on a book. Please share news about it as you progress.
Picked up a book tonight that may be of interest to readers here, but first sampling suggests it will be "brain pleasure" rather than "brain pain":The Age of Insight: The Quest to Understand the Unconscious in Art, Mind, and Brain, from Vienna 1900 to the Present by Eric R. Kandel
Some of you may recognize the Nobel Prize winning researcher for his series of TV lectures on the brain, with Charlie Rose, I believe. (Unfortunately, I am too TV-phobic to have watched them.)
Not a novel, but another book to call to the attention of brainiacs out there:Turing's Cathedral: The Origins of the Digital Universe by George Dyson.
The reviews on Goodreads give you a good sense of the book -- including Steve Heller, Jorge Gomez, Ilya....
I knew (not personally) Esther Dyson, the author's sister, from her work as a digital technology consultant. Their parents are Freeman Dyson, theoretical physicist and mathematician, and mathematician Verena Huber-Dyson.
My recommendation would be to listen to the book, rather than read it. (I'm currently at CD5 of 11.) In some ways, it is like a Ulysses of digital technology history -- it veers from tedious detail (e.g., the room numbers assigned at the Institute for Advanced Study to its famous inhabitants) to allusions to theoretical world-view shattering work (e.g., Kurt Gödel's incompleteness theorems) to the dynamics of mental health, type-A personalities, global politics, bureaucratic idiocy, and military budgets on the history of the digital revolution through which we have been and are living. Listening, to my mind, allows one to capture the flow and highlights of the story without getting bogged down and frustrated with the tedium one may encounter, depending on one's personal interests.
Filipe wrote: "Jim, that's precisely the point I wanted to hit. In the end it's more than abstractions, it's about peoples lives. People seek treament or are sent to treatment to be "cured" or to get better enoug..."Filipe:
I think I know what you went through, in several different layers.
1)
I think my schooldays were something like yours in which I had wished the powers that be would just allow me my own time to read on my own and not go at the pace of those around me in my small parochial school.
2) I have a blood relative who was "diagnosed" with a mental illness--mostly on the word of her less than Bell curve perfect, doctor spouse, and I swear the meds have made her life worse, but her spouse's better. She is presently waking up and fighting the fog, and I am trying my best to support her. Based on her experiences, I caution people considering it to think long and hard about taking the pharmaceutical route--also recall the profit involved!
On an aside to this, I recently watched the movie SILVER LININGS PLAYBOOK, and was not terribly happy with the pat ending of--take the meds, you'll get the cute girl!! Nevermind that all your relatives are a bit "off" as well...
3) I have experienced a (non-blood relative's) suicide in the family. Perhaps this is a time when an intervention may have been more useful. Of course, the difficulty is--how do we mere mortals know when that is necessary?
You may want to look into the writings of Kay Jamison, who has authored several books on the relationship between genius, "madness" (or outlier tendencies, as I prefer to think of it) and creativity/intelligence. She herself admits to tendencies towards manic-depression or bipolar disorder, or whatever the proper term is nowadays. Among other things she has a rather lengthy list of famous artists, writers, musicians, and other creative folks that she feels fit the M/D definition--that owe their gifts to their peculiar mental states. It's quite interesting.
To sum up: the easy answer is often wrong.
Brain Pain
Books mentioned in this topic
Turing's Cathedral: The Origins of the Digital Universe (other topics)The Age of Insight: The Quest to Understand the Unconscious in Art, Mind, and Brain from Vienna 1900 to the Present (other topics)
A Supposedly Fun Thing I'll Never Do Again: Essays and Arguments (other topics)
The Bell Curve: Intelligence and Class Structure in American Life (other topics)
Reading takes place in the mind. What in FSM's name does that mean?
Lie back and tell your Uncle Siggy what's on your mind....