Pulp Fiction discussion
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Welcome and Introductions
Simon wrote: "Ashton, hard-boiled crime fiction is one type of pulp fiction. Pulp fiction just refers to any style of writing that was originally published in pulp magazines from the 1920s through the 1950s/1960..."Simon: Nice answer and well put. Ditto on not sure about hard-boiled crime fiction and noir. Definitions are blurred, I think. Love this question though because each answer gives me more info.
For clarification though, horror, sci-fi, westerns and such, although published in pulp fiction magazines, were (or were not) considered 'hard-boiled'?
Asked this question many moons ago and answers were not as clear as you posted. Thanks.
Victoria wrote: "Hi, everyone! I'm brand-spankin-new and so happy to be here. I love anything in black and white, Slavic women with a mean streak, men who smell like cigarettes and whiskey, women who smell like th..."Vic: I'm there re: genre. Or, I'm here and love the genre, call it what you may. Certainly what you described.
We all love it, that's why we're here!
Cathy
"Hard-boiled" I think refers to a high level of sociological realism in the setting and moral ambiguity with the main characters. Only ever heard it used within the context of crime fiction or stuff otherwise inspired by the genre.
Victoria wrote: "Hi, everyone! I'm brand-spankin-new and so happy to be here. I love anything in black and white, Slavic women with a mean streak, men who smell like cigarettes and whiskey, women who smell like th..."Welcome, Vic! Great introduction. Do you have a novel in the works?
Ashton wrote: "Hi, I spotted this group recently. I'm from London and in advertising and I'm generally the English mystery lover type. But I read Connelly's Harry Bosh and certainly that is "hard boiled", righ..."Hi Ashton! Noir derived from film. The theme was usually dark and the movies were characterized by a distinct shadows. When used describing fiction, noir refers to a dark subject and if you imagine the story as a movie, you'd imagine significant use of shadow and light.
Hard-boiled fiction originally referred to writers like James M. Cain. These novels are usually the inverse of a mystery. A mystery is the resolving of something that has gone wrong. Hard-boiled fiction usually tells the story of how something goes wrong.
This is a great group. Glad you're with us.
Jackson Burnett
Jackson wrote: "Ashton wrote: "Hi, I spotted this group recently. I'm from London and in advertising and I'm generally the English mystery lover type. But I read Connelly's Harry Bosh and certainly that is "har..."Jackson:
Great, great response from you; someone who knows. You clarified it for me. Copying and keeping.
Thanks, cd
Wasn't the term "hard-boiled" at first used to describe Dashiell Hammett's style? That's basically what I remember reading.
Simon wrote: "Wasn't the term "hard-boiled" at first used to describe Dashiell Hammett's style? That's basically what I remember reading."Simon: Just to say I LOVE Hammett. Many more knowledgable than I am here but love him.
It may have been, Simon, and hard-boiled is certainly descriptive of many of the characters in detective fiction. As you mention, there is a lot of overlap of these terms. Hard-boiled as used in describing types of fiction refers to the genre's ultimate cynicism. Spade and Marlowe are heroic figures in a dark landscape. They may be hard-boiled in the sense there is a certain toughness about them. Cain's protagonists, though, are flawed figures in a dark landscape. There's no redemption for them or the situation.
Hmmm. This entire genre classification debate is confusing the hell out of me... maybe I just need to read some more secondary sources on the genre's history.
Jackson wrote: "It may have been, Simon, and hard-boiled is certainly descriptive of many of the characters in detective fiction. As you mention, there is a lot of overlap of these terms. Hard-boiled as used in ..."Great response, Jackson, and again copying for my own info. People ask me outside posting on thread. Thanks to you for answer and Simon for asking question.
Simon wrote: "Hmmm. This entire genre classification debate is confusing the hell out of me... maybe I just need to read some more secondary sources on the genre's history."Read, read read. I put my bet on Jackson though...he's a writer and lawyer. Bet he's investigated it before he put pen in hand, so to speak.
Mod
I would describe noir as the crime fiction where the protagonist is often a criminal or perpetrator or antihero. But it's a lot more complex than that. Normally with noir there is no happy ending either.
Ashton wrote: "Hi, I spotted this group recently. I'm from London and in advertising and I'm generally the English mystery lover type. But I read Connelly's Harry Bosh and certainly that is "hard boiled", righ..."Hi, Ashton - I think the definition of noir has become more fluid and relates more to style than content if that makes sense. I always think of it as good taste amidst some grim circumstances punctuated with world-weary humor.
Simon wrote: "Hmmm. This entire genre classification debate is confusing the hell out of me... maybe I just need to read some more secondary sources on the genre's history."I've been around the noir scene for quite a while, and I've seen this "What is Noir?" question constantly tackled by people who you would think would already know! Not sure why it needs to be defined and redefined and discussed so often in noir circles.
Even knowing the history of it, folks in the genre still keep asking "What is Noir?" A bit like asking "What is Orange?" A mix of red and yellow? A citrus fruit? But I like it. Regardless of what it is, I like it. And I like noir, too.
But there's also a small part of me that likes how slippery it can be, and how flexible it is. Right now, a lot of noir feels like horror. Or it's darkly funny. Or it's a feature of good, cyberpunk-style sci-fi.
Soooo....noir is....over there on the shelf.
Jackson wrote: "Victoria wrote: "Hi, everyone! I'm brand-spankin-new and so happy to be here. I love anything in black and white, Slavic women with a mean streak, men who smell like cigarettes and whiskey, women ..."I have two - first comes out later in the year. Darn it's a long process. Good thing I've got a lot of great books to read in the mean time :) How about you?
Cathy wrote: "Victoria wrote: "Hi, everyone! I'm brand-spankin-new and so happy to be here. I love anything in black and white, Slavic women with a mean streak, men who smell like cigarettes and whiskey, women ..."Amen, Cathy.
I am a Bangkok based PI and have recently published my first detective fiction 'Bangkok Rules' and am learning my way around Goodreads. This looks like my kind of group. Hello to all of you.
Simon wrote: "Hello."Hi Simon. Shy? If so, you would be the first around here.
Victoria wrote: "Cathy wrote: "Victoria wrote: "Hi, everyone! I'm brand-spankin-new and so happy to be here. I love anything in black and white, Slavic women with a mean streak, men who smell like cigarettes and w..."Hi, Harlan. I'm presently reading a book called Bangkok 8. It's great. Welcome.
Harlan wrote: "Bangkok 8 is one of the good ones"Will have to put on my list and up it on "to-read" because I've had many friends say it's great.
Thanks for input Victoria and Harlan.
James wrote: "Hello!Name's James. I'm a bit of a novice to crime lit (basically only read the biggies -- Thompson, Chandler, Hammett, and a few random pick-ups), but I'm a huge film noir fan. I'm also an obnox..."
Terrific list! Thanks for posting.
Hi... I'm John Prindle, author of The Art of Disposal http://www.jukepopserials.com/home/re... at Jukepopserials.com.
I read many genres, but one of my favorite pulp/crime writers is Jim Thompson.
I read many genres, but one of my favorite pulp/crime writers is Jim Thompson.
John wrote: "Hi... I'm John Prindle, author of The Art of Disposal http://www.jukepopserials.com/home/re... at Jukepopserials.com.I read many genres, but one of my favorite pulp/crime writers is Jim Thompson."
Thanks, John.
Hello. I'm Joshua Dyer and a fan of pulp fiction. I love the classic hard-boiled detectives the most, but I'll get into just about any of it. I have a current sci-fi pulp work up entitled, 'Hunter Cell'. It will be free through March 22nd for all fellow fans of sci-fi/noir/pulp fiction. I look forward to the discussions in this group.
Mod
Thank you for supporting the product of my wild imagination.
Thanks Victoria... nice to be a part of this group.
Hi folks-I don't think I've introduced myself. I just jumped in and started posting.
I like Goodreads and I LOVE this section in particular because it has to do with my main literary fixation: hardboiled/noir/crime-thrillers.
I read and re-read Raymond Chandler whenever the mood strikes. Currently I've been reading newer practitioners of the genre: Megan Abbott, Vicki Hendricks, P. G. Sturges, Duane Swierzynski, Charlie Stella, Charlie Huston, Ken Bruen, Boston Teran, Urban Waite, Steve Hamilton, Craig McDonald... and on and on... did I mention Don Winslow? Don Winslow, David Corbett, Scott Wolven, Harry Dolan and my absolute favorite current and living & breathing authors: Daniel Woodrell and Jim Nisbet as well as Donald Ray Pollock and Frank Bill.
That's it for the newer guys.
I'm also a huge fan of the originals: Chandler, Hammett, Richard Stark/Tucker Coe/Donald Westlake, Gil Brewer, Harry Whittington, Robert Edmund Alter, Donald Hamilton's non-Matt Helm novels, Jim Thompson, Charles Willeford, Charles Williams, William S. Burroughs, Peter Rabe, Frederick Nebel, Norbert Davis, all of the Black Mask boys, most of the Fawcett-Gold Medal authors.
That's about all I can remember for now. It kind of gives you an idea of what I'm into.
Oh wait! I forgot to mention Derek Raymond. LOVE me some Derek Raymond- all five of the novels that comprise "The Factory" series. It doesn't get darker than "I Was Dora Suarez" (book #4).
I've already discovered or was introduced to (and purchased) hardboiled items mentioned by some of the members gathered here.
So... so far everything's been beautiful.
Thanks, folks.
Mod
Love your profile photo!
Ditto to Melki's comments,
A few new names for me to check out.......Sturges, Dolan, Wolven for starters,
Cheers
A few new names for me to check out.......Sturges, Dolan, Wolven for starters,
Cheers
Mantan wrote: "Hi folks-I don't think I've introduced myself. I just jumped in and started posting.
I like Goodreads and I LOVE this section in particular because it has to do with my main literary fixation: har..."
You're a man after my own heart :)
At last! I've found the enlightened!I'm a bit late to the party and hoping I'm welcomed. An all-round read-a-holic, I'm a bit odd where I come from (Caribbean – not there at the moment): When I mention “pulp fiction”, I get either blank stares or "Oh, yeah, I like Tarantino's movie, too." Then I have to explain the whole 1920's cheap pulp paper and "You know Spade & Mason, don't you?" thing. So I’m very glad you guys exist. My pulp passion started as a kid pouring over Dick Tracy cartoons in the newspaper. Then I discovered the flash-pace thrills of Hammett, Chandler, Charteris and more and that was it. Now I'm looking from the Bogart & Burr era for 21st century hard boiled writers and am shamelessly scoping what you guys read/suggest. Saw someone (Heidi) suggest best 'American Noir of the Century'. Any others? I welcome all passionate suggestions since I my Black Lizard Big Book of Pulps is frayed from rereading and I tapped out Mosley.
I'm also a fiction writer – novels, not strictly pulp but keep-ya-guessing mystery intrigue, a bit of romance with dry tongue-in-cheek. And I self-medicated my homesickness by launching a modern P.I. novella series along classic pulp lines. Feel free to friend me because I’m looking forward to reading your suggestions and tongue-wagging about them here.
James wrote: "Hello!Name's James. I'm a bit of a novice to crime lit (basically only read the biggies -- Thompson, Chandler, Hammett, and a few random pick-ups), but I'm a huge film noir fan. I'm also an obnox..."
Nothing at all wrong with compulsive list making, James. Don't let anyone tell you different. Is your list in order of priority? I'm ooking to branch on from the 1920-60's classic to something late 20th/21st century. Any suggestions?
James wrote: "Margaret wrote: Any suggestions?Definitely! A few favourites.
Thanks, James. That was quick, so I know you're passionate about them.
This is the second time Veronica Mars has been suggested to me, so guess I'll be TiVoing the series now.
The others: ooh, choices, choices. Think I'll start with Straight Time and get back to you on how I like it. Again, Thanks. (Copied the whole list to my hard drive, BTW)
Welcome, Margaret - boy, you are in the right place. There's an interesting American Colonial pulp/noir coming out soon - I've got to find the author's name. shouldn't be hard, we share an agent. But it sounds like a lot of fun.I'm a fiction writer, too. Cold War is my specialty.
Cheers,
Vic
Victoria wrote: "Welcome, Margaret - boy, you are in the right place. There's an interesting American Colonial pulp/noir coming out soon - I've got to find the author's name. shouldn't be hard, we share an agent...."Not familiar with American Colonial, but if it's pulp, will definitely give it a try. Will keep an eye out for your update so please post it.Thanks.
James wrote: "Margaret wrote: Any suggestions?Definitely! A few favourites:
The Nickel Ride (Mulligan, 1974): My favourite neo-noir, probably. Once very hard-to-find but recently put out on DVD alongside 99 A..."
What an impressive list!
I haven't thought of COP in years! What a terrific film - as are STRAIGHT TIME, THIEF, HOT SPOT, and THE PARALLAX VIEW. I'm glad to see someone else enjoyed THE BLACK DAHLIA. I thought it was terrific.
If you enjoyed WINTER'S BONE you really should treat yourself to Daniel Woodrell's novel. I loved the film but the novel really elaborates on the more minor characters as they are depicted in the film, if they even appear in the film. Jennifer Garner is wonderful in that movie.
Thanks for the heads up on THE NICKEL RIDE & ONE FALSE MOVE - I'd
never heard of either one!
Thanks to James & Mantan, I just put Cop and Winter's Bone second & third on the to-rip-into list.
As the group's resident Dane I have to recommend most of Nicolas Winding Refn's entries into crime film: the "Pusher" trilogy, "Bronson" and especially "Drive" stand out. Got yet to see "Bleeder", though.He's also got a new movie coming out this year, can't remember its title but once again Ryan Gosling plays the main character.
Hi! My name is C. Martin Stepp and I am a new author and a new member of goodreads. I'm currently working on a series of humorous detective novels. I have two published so far. I don't know that they necessarily fit the "noir" genre, but if you like a good (and somewhat funny) detective story, you may like them. You should be able to see my author page here at goodreads.
C, welcome, and very cool looking website!I pen humorous detective fiction, too, but short fiction and only just launched my first official one - Island Pulp Detective Series - Good & Kinky. Looking forward to learning more about you.
Hi! I'm Olivia from Peoria, Illinois. I like Robert Parker's Spenser and Jesse Stone series--even now that they're being ghostwritten.
Hi, Olivia - I'm a Chicagoland native! Welcome here. I love Alan Furst, Raymond Chandler, Dash Hammett in the classics category and Ken Bruen and Matt Beyoton Rees in the the neo category.
Hi everyone, Just wanted to say that I'm really enjoying the love for crime noir on this group. I have published two YA crime fiction books and I would love to tell you about my books and get to know all you hard boiled readers.
Have a great day,
Louis Bruno
Pulp Fiction
Books mentioned in this topic
Hard Rain Falling (other topics)The Little Sister (other topics)
The Hunter (other topics)
The Killer Inside Me (other topics)
The Big Sleep (other topics)
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Authors mentioned in this topic
Don Carpenter (other topics)Gordon Ferris (other topics)
James M. Cain (other topics)
Denise Mina (other topics)
Ken Bruen (other topics)
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I'm not sure exactly what the difference between hard-boiled crime fiction and noir is yet, though. They're sometimes treated as synonymous and sometimes not.