Fans of Interracial Romance discussion

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General Chatting > Interesting - Inclusion and Mistakes v. Homogeny and Accuracy

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message 51: by Roslyn (new)

Roslyn | 249 comments J.R. Ward is the greatest con artist that ever lived. She and Kris Kardashian should do a marketing book, they're pure genius. Of course, Ward would never admit to what she did in pandering to white females with black male fetishes. She gave them black men, only without the inconvenience of blackness. Like I said, genius. I don't deal in those threads anymore, it just got too ridiculous for words, but it certainly was eye-opening.

Yeah, YA #coverfail has been absolutely insane, but it does make you wonder. If the publisher is right and the books will sell less with a POC on the cover then does it really do the artist a disservice? I mean, I'm all for diversity, but this is a business after all.

I remember when a reader returned her copy of Delaney's Desert Sheikh to my bookstore. She hadn't realized the woman on the cover was black (Yeah I started to ask if she was blind, but I was the manager), so I personally have experience with the fucknuttery that goes on with this issue. Which is yet another reason why I dislike the figurative covers. Even with black readers you get a lot of complaints about skin color and hair texture. Using stock photography is problematic, but it's expensive enough. It's not like anyone can afford to do a photo shoot. I think non-figurative covers would eliminate a lot of angst, not to mention expense, but hey, what do I know.

I will probably put figures on my book, it's an issue my husband and I are still going back and forth on. I don't like it and never have, but I know a lot of readers do like it and obviously I'm not writing this book for me. And of course, cover art isn't cheap, but at least I have a free designer so that's something.


The FountainPenDiva, Old school geek chick and lover of teddy bears (thefountainpendiva) | 1216 comments LOL, Roz. I really don't have an issue per se with Ward's use of hip-hop slang; what bothers me is how readers will accept it from her when they cite the use of hip-hop slang in books with black characters, or the assumption that just because there are black people on the cover, the book is going to contain hip-hop slang.

Seriously, I just fell out of my chair when the hero of the first book is rolling around in an Escalade. I'm like, is this a joke?


message 53: by TinaNoir (last edited Nov 05, 2011 05:12PM) (new)

TinaNoir | 1456 comments @Ros- you hit the nail on the head with Ward. Perfectly stated. I have a HUGE problem with JR Ward and her appropriation of what largely black and Urban culture. She is putting those signifiers all over these white centuries old vampires while simultaneously ignoring where the origins came from. Not once anywhere in her books is it shown how these guys became immersed in the hip-hop culture. There certainly weren't any black characters in the curiously all white 'urban' environment they all live in.

I swear at one point I just pictured all these huge hulking guys sitting around listening to rap in their basement, religiously watching The Wire and reciting the dialogue to each other til it sounds right. LOL.

Heck, at least when Madonna appropriated vogueing all the black & latino gay community knew that she at least had been hanging in the clubs for years. Still pissed them off though.

Davina D who sometimes contributes to this board once broke down the Ward problem beautifully.

Regards covers, I am ambivalent about real people on the front. Too many times they simply don't look like how I picture them and they do impact my feelings about the book. If the guy looks to wimpy of the woman looks too hard etc.

I will say that I have a love/hate relationship with the current state of IR romance cover. On the one hand, there are some seriously smokin' cover models. And you can see the heat coming off the photo. Otoh, the same three couples appear on what feels like Every.Single.Book. For a visual person it is rather bothersome. Sometimes I have to double-check I haven't already read the book because in some cases it is the exact same cover.


message 54: by Fiona (new)

Fiona McGier | 128 comments Raising a hand...middle-aged white woman here, who writes inter-racial stories because that's what many of my friends are, and because those are the characters that interest me. I've written a series about a large Hispanic family and the people each of them fall in love with, including a white blind man who falls for a red-hot salsa-queen! I don't insult people's backgrounds, I use what I've learned talking to my many friends in inter-racial relationships, and their children, and I write erotic romance stories about falling in love with a person, not with the color of the person.
One of my books has a black heroine and two white men who both want to marry her...one of my books has a white heroine and the black man she loved then ran away from years ago.
But in terms of royalties, I'm sure NOT making big money because I'm white! Doing your own promoting is time-consuming and exhausting, and I already work 2 other jobs, so I don't have as much time as I'd like to have to promote...or to write!
That being said, I can see both sides of the discussion that has been going on here. But all races have gotten short shrift from the media...the Navajo code-talkers had wonderful stories to tell, but we only got a movie about them when Nicholas
Cage was the hero and they were the supporting characters! Sheesh! Stereotypes are ugly and irrational and don't make for good story-telling. I try to write realistic people who fall in love...isn't that what romance is all about?


message 55: by M.J. (new)

M.J. Kane (mjkane) | 97 comments I'm jumping in late to this conversation, but I have to say, Fiona, I like what you said. I am black and a new author. My stories that I am writing about interracial relationships that are about the people, their internal/external conflicts and how they work to overcome them. I don't use race to paint or push the entire story along. It's mentioned in the beginning, but quickly pushed to the background as the characters learn to love each other as PEOPLE. When I publish the story next year, I'm visiting EVERY POSSIBLE AVENUE for distribution. I'm not pushing my book towards one ethnic group. Readers will read what they want to IF it's put in front of them. It is not for us to decide what someone will or will not read. If you put it out there and it's available and they want to read it, they will. If you don't put in the work...yes the work to make it available to any and everyone, it will not be seen. As the saying goes, you get rewarded by the work that you put in. Period.


message 56: by Roslyn (last edited Nov 08, 2011 08:05AM) (new)

Roslyn | 249 comments Let me be clear, I'm not opposed to any author promoting in any forum available I think you would be stupid not to do so. I simply pointed out that despite my efforts in that area I have gained very few non-black readers. YMMV and I hope it does.

Have y'all been following the latest Romancelandia brouhaha? Apparently a m/m writer has been outed as a woman who masquerades as a gay man. Not only does she use a male pseudonym which is apparently quite common in the genre, she had a guy pretend to be her at book signings and events. Further she wrote articles in the gay press about coming out. It's interesting because I've always assumed that pretty much all the m/m books out there were written by women, primarily because they in no way resemble the gay erotica that I've read. So I guess the issue of "getting it right" doesn't seem to trouble Romancelandia overly much when it comes to m/m, at least not enough to prevent them from writing it and raking in the dollars. Yet another example of the pure B.S. they spout. If they thought being "inclusive" would result in money they'd be all over it. I've been interested to note that Loose Id is actively pursuing IR books, they did another submission call this morning. I know there is at least one white author who has written IR for Loose Id. I think it'll be fascinating to see the floodgates open when they realize how much money is there. The voyeuristic desire to read IR is probably pretty much the same as it is for M/M. Unfortunately, much of the white readership wants it only from the pen of a white female author, otherwise they "can't relate."


message 57: by Chaeya (new)

Chaeya | 454 comments The point that's being made is: white authors writing I/R have better odds at getting their books read than a black author writing I/R.

Besides the "relate" issue, another problem with black authors has been the grammar issue. We've all seen the threads on different forums and Amazon, posted even by black readers. It's been talked about that many books have come from low budget e-presses or self-published with little or no editing. While the editing issue has been an issue with many books by all people; however, I think a black author is under the gun worse than a white author.

I've been attacked by other authors when I stated they need to get their act together and better the quality of their books. I was told that their fans like the way they write, and they shouldn't have to do anything other than what they're doing. They say they have a problem with grammar and their fans understand. That's like my being a singer and I can't stay on key, but I expect my fans to understand. Really? There are all sorts of cheap online workshops and grammar information on the Net. There's NaNo, there's many places to better one's writing. So to me, if you're going to be a professional author, there's no excuse to not better yourself.

I know black authors who write very well, who put a lot of time and energy into their writing, and their quality is no different than everyone else, but when you see I/R's on Amazon and you have people complaining about the many errors in the review section, those readers aren't going to buy from that author again, and let's be real, if they see a number of I/R's by black authors with the same complaint, they'll get it in their minds that: black author = many grammatical errors = don't buy from them.

Romance readers are cliquey, we know that, if they find an author they like, they will buy from them again. If a white author already has a readership, they can write about any subject they like, and people will give it a try. They may not like it, but they'll try it nonetheless.

And Fiona, I was looking at your books, and I think one of your biggest problems is the fact that you're with a small e-press that most likely has little fanbase, other than the authors they publish. This has been talked about in other forums. Your books are on Amazon priced quite high. You will get some sales, based on your marketing, but you are competing with $2.99 and $0.99 e-books. Kindle is the number one selling publisher out there. That's a known fact.

Based on sales information, the top e-publishers are:

Ellora's Cave
Carina Press
Samhain
Phaze
Loose ID

If you can't publish with one of those, or a subsidiary thereof, you're better off going indie. I know a number of NY print authors who have decided to self-publish, including their backtitles with great success, since they can compete with the $2.99 and 99 cent pricing tactics. The price point is something I've been researching for the past year.

Just my two cents.


message 58: by Roslyn (new)

Roslyn | 249 comments This is so true Chaeya, especially the part about grammar/spelling issues. I've been savaged for saying the same thing. When I put my money down I expect a PROFESSIONAL product from a PROFESSIONAL writer. If you're not up to that standard you shouldn't be charging people money. This is a new, emerging genre and if we don't police it ourselves we'll wind up with a bad name genre-wide and others will take the prize right from under our noses.

I strongly encourage writers to go through the process with a publisher at least for the first few books. I've done nine books with Loose Id, and yeah the editing process is brutal, but I've learned so much it was worth the effort.


message 59: by Arch , Mod (new)

Arch  | 6707 comments Mod
I don't know many white authors that writes interracial romance. Suzanne Brockmann wrote about Sam and Alyssa and they aren't her only interracial couple in her story.

I will speak for myself, I don't read a lot of black author's interracial books, because many of them are erotic books and that's not my cup of tea. And plus, a lot of black author interracial books are in ebook format. I don't have an ereader and I'm not buying one. I like books in print.

Black authors aren't the only ones that have errors in their books. I think that people come down hard on black author's books is because that's the only books they read. A lot of black readers don't read white interracial books or white books period.

I use to post to the Amazon romance forum. Interracial romance isn't really a topic on that forum. A lot of people feel that only white books are supposed to be talked about there. So, if you are on the forum and you see people complain about grammar errors in books, they are talking about white books. I've witnessed this.

People feel that if they pay for a book, they need to have a error free book or at least 99% error free book.

I'm a firm believer in checking out a book first before buying, if that's an option for you.


message 60: by Chaeya (new)

Chaeya | 454 comments No book is 99% error free, it's virtually impossible to do, even with an editor. And I scrutinize most books before buying them, which is why I know who the good authors are and who could use a little help.

There is an Interracial Romance forum, BWWM forum and Interracial Erotic forum on Amazon, and a few years ago, I remember reading them. There's been other forums I've belonged to with black authors that discussed the issue, so I'm not making this up.

I'm far from being a grammar nazi. If I can read with a flow, then I'm happy. I'm not going to pitch a fit over a few commas or a mispelled word. However, I believe that regardless of what white authors do, black authors have to be that much better and that much harder on themselves, because it isn't just the readers who believe this, it's the agents and publishers, as well.

It did make me feel good that when I last submitted my novel to a well known agent, I got a letter back stating:

"Thanks for letting me read Srae Iss-Ka-Mala. It's clear you know how to write and have a great ability to create a strong and interesting heroine. Unfortunately, this book didn't knock me out of my chair. I wish you luck finding a home for it."

So all my hard work paid off, even if I didn't get picked, I got taken seriously enough to get a personal letter, not a form letter. It also forced me to strengthen some weak parts in my book to make it stronger.


message 61: by Arch , Mod (new)

Arch  | 6707 comments Mod
Chaeya, I could be wrong, but I'm sure white authors get letters like the one you have. I don't think you have gotten the letter because you were black or even if your book wasn't strong enough. Just because one reader doesn't find a book strong enough, it doesn't mean it's not. If you submit your story to another publishing company, it might get accepted. Everyone's reading taste is different.

As a black writer, I will never be hard on myself and think I have to up my game, in order for my stories to be good. I write for fun and share stories on here. A lot of white women write for fun too and share stories online.


message 62: by Chaeya (new)

Chaeya | 454 comments Arch, no I didn't get the letter because I was black, I met this agent in person at the RT Convention, so he knows what I am. But there is a lot of racism out there, and I have to be prepared for it. I don't have to let it rule my life, but I want to show that I have none of the stereotypes that one of these types attributes to me. I don't believe the agent is prejudice, in fact, he asked me if I had anything to submit. However, many publishers obviously are.

I know you write just for fun and I know there are members of all races who write for fun, but I don't. I am preparing to be professionally published, so I'm not in a position to not be hard on myself, or to try to be better at what I do. People will be paying for my product. I also owe it to other minorities to be the best I can be for them, because I'm representing. As a musician who has a musical presence out there, not famous, but a indie presence, I have to be hard on myself or I can't compete. I already have a hard enough time because of my age in an industry which believes you're done by the time you're 30. Music is harder than writing, because there's no good avenues to sell your music. What's worse is I don't have the money to pay for studios to give me that high quality sound. So I have to find ways around that. Whether song or book, if I don't feel my product is of the best quality, it doesn't get out there.

However, that doesn't mean I don't have fun writing. I have plenty. Perhaps it's the musician side of me that pushes me so hard. I think other authors here can relate, regardless of their race. And I think as black authors, they also know that since there's exclusion in the racial area, there's a little extra scrutiny with not just what they write, but how they write it.


message 63: by Fiona (new)

Fiona McGier | 128 comments Chaeya, thanks for the list of top e-publishers. Before I got published I submitted my books to anyone and everyone, and got so many rejection notices I could paper a room with them! What I really hated were the form letters talking down to me, explaining they don't read anything not repped by an agent. Then why don't they state THAT on their website, instead of all of the rules about how and what to submit?

When I got my first contract I was dancing in the street! I know I'm with a couple of smaller publishers, but with 3 kids in college this year I can't afford to quit either of my jobs to write more. So what little time I do spend writing is golden to me. And knowing there are publishers, even small ones, who are glad to read my stuff, helps me to feel like a "real" author.

And at least I get some say in the covers, which to me is important when my romances are IR...I want the couple on the cover to reflect the people I'm writing about. You can't always do that with bigger houses.


message 64: by Chaeya (new)

Chaeya | 454 comments Hi Fiona, I hear you loud and clear. I have a full time job, 2 kids (husband = 3rd kid), a small business and a band, so the time I get to write is little. My one book has taken me ages to get out there, with taking classes and workshops, researching. I remember the time I spoke with an author about promotion and they mentioned Twitter, and I think I nearly burst out in tears thinking I had to spend all day typing something I was doing. Honestly, people, I'm not that interesting. Facebook, I can do, Twitter, I have to draw the line somewhere. I'm editing right now and it's just slow because I've just had one thing after another since August. I've been doing a little bit in between going to my online forums like here.

There are "yays" and "nays" about both large and small presses. From listening to others, if you have a special story that none of the other publishers will touch, there's always the small presses -- who give you more say in your cover and content. One thing about the e-pubs I mentioned above is, they're mostly erotic, because erotic sells better, that's just the truth. Ellora's Cave has a sweeter subsidiary, Blush, and Samhain does take different heat levels. Loose and Phase are strictly erotic.

The problem with my book has been the size. It's a M/C Fantasy/Sci-Fi, so with the world building and character setting, it's 500 pages. Most e-pubs won't take over 120K words. People told me to split it into two books, but then I didn't like where the story was going. If I have to give up part of my royalties, I'd like to see some sort of advertising presence, such as in RT Magazine.

I wouldn't mind a small press if they'd give me print rights and they have the e-book rights. I paid an artist out of pocket for my cover and that cover will garner me a lot of sales, so I do want to have a print book, whereas some e-pubs don't guarantee your book will be in print. I do a lot of market selling, so that's where I need a print book.

Even with being with one of the larger e-presses, the brunt of the marketing still comes down to the author. You can still get lost behind more popular authors with Ellora and Samhain.

One nice thing about indie publishing is when your contract runs out on your e-book and the rights revert back to you, you can always republish it. This is where I have a problem with Ellora's because they tie your rights up for a ridiculous amount of time.


message 65: by Fiona (new)

Fiona McGier | 128 comments Chaeya, I do write erotic romance, but mine is more traditional, with one man, one woman, and while having hot sex they fall in love...usually they get pregnant and/or married by the end of the book. Not exactly what is all the rage in erotic romance these days, since there are no menage, male/male, or bestiality scenes. But in the town I live in, most people would still be shocked by the erotic scenes I write...can't please everyone.

With my publishers, you can wait for your eBook to sell enough copies for them to want to produce a paperback, or you can guarantee it being available by ordering a set number of copies yourself...but then you own them and have to resell them.

And you are right that no matter how big the house is that publishes your work, including the "big 6" in New York, you are still responsible for doing most if not all of the promotions yourself. ARGH!

With the length of your book, maybe you'd be better off using Smashwords? I self-pubbed one book in my Hispanic romances series with them, to offer it as a free read, hoping that if readers like my style, they will order the others in the series. But I found the system at Smashwords easy to use, and you can choose the price, collect your royalties, even choose dates for coupons to offer discounts. And they have no length rules.


message 66: by Chaeya (new)

Chaeya | 454 comments I know, I like that about SW and they distribute to all the major networks. Then I can publish it to Kindle as well. I can print it through Createspace. Everyone has had pretty good success with that system.

I like the control that self-publishing gives you. I have a pretty good editor, who's a friend of mine. So we'll see. ;o)


message 67: by Danielle The Book Huntress , Sees Love in All Colors (new)

 Danielle The Book Huntress  (gatadelafuente) | 7331 comments Mod
I'm almost convinced that I will go for a small indie publisher. I don't want my stories to fit any certain genre, and I like the idea of having a little more freedom. Not that there's anything wrong with writing erotic, if it's your thing, but I don't, so I know it will be a bit harder to get published because the market seems to be pushing towards that. I want to combine a lot of different genres in my stories, which are a bit hard to market. I have pretty much accepted that I probably won't get rich off my writing. I'm not prolific enough a writer, and I don't want to be a big name anyway. I just need to get motivated and get some of my stories ready to submit again.

I might check into Smashwords or Kindle, but I'd like to see what the indie pub scene looks like too. I'm aiming more at the speculative fiction market, but I do have some IR contemporaries I will try to submit as well.

Chaeya, I like the idea of contracting an artist to do covers. I am an artist, but not good enough to do my own covers, and not at all good with computer animation/graphic design.


message 68: by Chaeya (new)

Chaeya | 454 comments Danielle, you might want to look into Carina Press (Harlequin) and Blush, the subsidiary of Ellora's Cave. I have listened to a number of readers who don't care for any sex in their stories, or want to keep it simple. It's true that erotic sells better; however, I think there will come a time when people will get their fill of it and want something a bit tamer. I don't want to bog down this thread with the info, so I'll post a new thread.


message 69: by Danielle The Book Huntress , Sees Love in All Colors (new)

 Danielle The Book Huntress  (gatadelafuente) | 7331 comments Mod
Thanks for the info, Chaeya.


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