17. A DISTANT MIRROR...October 17th ~ October 23rd ~~ Part Two - Chapter TWENTY-SEVEN and EPILOGUE (564 - 598) - No Spoilers Please

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Hello Everyone,

For the week of October 17th - October 23rd, we are reading approximately the next 34 pages of A Distant Mirror: The Calamitous 14th Century by Barbara W. Tuchman.

The seventeenth week's reading assignment is:

Week Seventeen - October 17th - October 23rd -> TWENTY-SEVEN and EPILOGUE p. 564 - 598
TWENTY-SEVEN – Hung Be The Heavens with Black and EPILOGUE



We will open up a thread for each week's reading. Please make sure to post in the particular thread dedicated to those specific chapters and page numbers to avoid spoilers. We will also open up supplemental threads as we did for other spotlighted books.

This book was kicked off on June 20th. We look forward to your participation. Amazon, Barnes and Noble, Borders and other noted on line booksellers do have copies of the book and shipment can be expedited. The book can also be obtained easily at your local library, or on your Kindle.

There is time still remaining to obtain the book and get started.

There is no rush and we are thrilled to have you join us. It is never too late to get started and/or to post.

Welcome,

~Bentley


TO ALWAYS SEE ALL WEEKS' THREADS SELECT VIEW ALL



by Barbara W. Tuchman

[Elizabeth S]

Last set of random thoughts for this book:

Page 565: Pretty cool miracle.

Page 569: The discussion of age back then is rather interesting. Coucy was 56 at this point. So often we look at the average age in whatever century, and think someone in their 50s was ancient. Tuchman makes a good point that infant mortality and disease shortened many lives, but that doesn't mean that people aged that much younger than they do now.

And so our hero dies. What a life. Tuchman gives him quite the eulogy. "A whole man in a fractured time, he was the least compromised of his class and kind by brutality, venality, and reckless indulgence" and "He had many of the qualities of George Washington" (page 571). So often history celebrates the reformer, the one who makes changes. Yet there is value in those who are able to make the most of what they are given. "Enguerrand did not innovate nor rise above his time; he went with it, served it better than most, and died of its values" (page 572).

The battle at Nicopolis cost a lot in lives. But the people continued to pay in taxes, etc for the ransoms. Ouch, ouch, ouch.

Who or what was to blame for the defeat? There are some great arguments and explanations in the book. One of my favorites is "the crusaders' lack of the four moral virtues necessary to any army: order, discipline, obedience, and justice" (page 576).

So, what do you think is the best adjective for the 14th century? Tuchman uses several throughout the book, I think. On page 578 she uses "tormented." While it may not be perfect, I do think it is accurate.

The last four paragraphs of the chapter (pages 580-581) contain a lot of summary-type stuff. It seems that any one of those sentences could be discussed and debated.

I appreciated the interesting note that "In the year that Enguerrand de Coucy died, John Gutenberg was born" (page 581). Gutenberg's little invention sure changed the world. I'm glad I'm around to enjoy so many fruits of it. :)

[Elizabeth S]

Epilogue thoughts:

After a 550 page "summary" of the 14th century, we get a 15ish page summary of the 15th. Wheeeee!

It was fun to read about Henry V from a historical perspective, rather than Shakespeare's artistic rendition. (I do enjoy by William Shakespeare)

And the Oh-so-short summary of Joan of Arc's story. Someday I'd like to read a nice nonfiction about her.

Nice to get some of a wrapping up about the schism. What a mess that was.

I didn't realize that the western bulge of Africa was (first?) rounded in 1433. History of sea exploration sounds like another good book, huh.

And in 1456 we get the first printed book, the Gutenberg Bible. Another nonfiction that would be fun to read--something about the history of printing.

Tuchman does assume we know at least a little bit about history. Such as her mention of Gutenberg on page 581. And the little comment here: "A formal settlement between England and France was eventually concluded... in 1492, a year more significant for other reasons" (page 595). Hmmm, wonder what she is referring to? (Ha ha)

Overall, a fun, interesting, informative read. Thanks to Tuchman and also to Coucy.

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Great comments Elizabeth S, It is nice of Tuchman to pique our interest.

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Vince stated:

Yes Elizabeth - insightful comments

I liked this chapter and epilogue - in that it made the book friendly and understandable again.

It focused more on Coucy's activiites and experiences and that made it easier. I found the exploration of being a prisoner was very interesting - knowing those without ransom possibilities were disposed up. A modified Bataan Death march because you wanted to be able to sell the folks.
The reality that these men really and regularly exposed themselves to early and painful deaths - not that there was not already enough "tormenting" (steal/borrow the word) going on.

I wondered if it was a last Jewish anti - German jab that in the second to last paragraph of the book Ludendorff got the "anti culture" role of finishing destruction of the castle.

Vince, I moved the remainder of your note to book as a whole. Thanks.

[Elizabeth S]

Vince, I thought of the Bataan Death march while reading this chapter as well. I wonder if anyone has counted how often such marches have been recorded. (I'm guessing there are many that are not recorded.)

[Vincent]

Elizabeth S wrote: "Vince, I thought of the Bataan Death march while reading this chapter as well. I wonder if anyone has counted how often such marches have been recorded. (I'm guessing there are many that are not ..."

Hi Elizabeth

Sorry I am just seeing this note now.

I have not thought about that but it is a really interesting perspective.

Thanks

Vince