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The Early Asimov
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Peter, the amazon books you linked to were for Vol 1 & Vol 2, and you didn't link to any book on GR and didn't give an ISBN.Please provide a link to the book you think is wrong, as Amazon is not a definitive guide at all.
Sandra , GR book link is in the title :)
Wasn't sure if that was the one he meant ;)
Yes, it was. Sorry about not being clearer.Volume I vs. Volume II is part of the problem.
ISBN is 0586039368.
The US Amazon site has Volume I and Volume II mixed together on the same page. That may be part of where the problem originated.
Here is a link: http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/41...
Is the physical copy I have here on my desk definitive? It is a volume II and has its ISBN listed as 586 03936 8.
I referenced the Amazon UK site because the book is printed there.
OK Peter, according to WorldCat all 3 volumes have that ISBN. WorldCat is not foolproof but is generally regarded as correct :DIssuing all 3 volumes with the same ISBN was not common but is certainly not unique. I have several series that all share the same ISBN.
So that means that the existing books on GR are correct and if you have any books that need to be added either add them as an alternative cover edition with the note that they share the ISBN or if you aren't a librarian, post details here and we'll do it for you :)
No, I am not a Librarian (although sometimes I think I should be, but don't really have the time).I do not believe you are correct about what is being reported on WorldCat. It is simply reporting that the edition is in 3 volumes, although it was originally published in 1 volume. The 3 volumes have the following ISBNs:
___ISBN______ISBN-13____Volume__Goodreads link___________
058603806x_9780586038062_Volume 1_The Early Asimov: v. 1
0586039368_9780586039366_Volume 2
0586039376_9780586039373_Volume 3_The Early Asimov, Volume 3: Or, Eleven Years of Trying (Panther Science Fiction
See verification on WorldCat:
Series http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/491737042Note: The Buy link to Amazon for this record only links to a copy of volume 1.
Vol. 1 http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/59232019
Vol. 2 http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/59232330
Vol. 3 http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/59232334
I believe that the following link has all of the correct data for Volume 2: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Early-Asimov-Panther-Science-Fiction/dp/0586039368/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1319354919&sr=1-1
Peter wrote: "It is simply reporting that the edition is in 3 volumes, although it was originally published in 1 volume. The 3 volumes have the following ISBNs:___ISBN______ISBN-13____Volume__
058603806x_9780586038062_Volume 1
0586039368_9780586039366_Volume 2
0586039376_9780586039373_Volume 3"
From what I can tell, this appears to be correct. Multiple volume items is the one area where I have found Worldcat to be less useful than I would like. I have worked some with multi-volume manga and comics and see this kind of thing fairly frequently. Worldcat will sometimes list all the volumes (or sometimes just some of them, but not the whole series) under one listing like they are different editions of the same work, when that is not really the case.
So what is to be done about
The Early Asimov Volume 1?I think we are agreed that it lists the wrong book, but it has 246 ratings and 13 reviews associated with that wrong book. (I believe that the correct record is
The Early Asimov: v. 1.)Can those reviews and ratings be moved to the book for which they were intended? (Is this what is referred to as merging books?)
Can the record for ISBN 0586039368 be corrected to the correct information?
Actually the 246 ratings are for all editions. However, the two volumes in question have 56 and 39 ratings, so a super-librarian is needed to merge them.I am thinking in this case that the erroneous edition should be merged with the correct one (to preserve people's ratings); then re-import the Vol 2 ISBN and correct the data.
Other librarians: Thoughts/Opinions?
just a thought:if the original book is published in 1 volume, then there should be 4 entry for these books:
early asimov v1, v2, v3 & early asimov (original, 1 volume books, combinable with omnibus of vol 1-2-3)
edit:
agreed with vicki_girl for the treatment of the erroneous edition
I don't think the original book was published in 1 volume, but rather 1 set with 3 volumes included. If you look at the WorldCat entry Peter linked for the set, it says "3 vol. (188p., 247p., 192p.)" They're clearly three separate books.
I think Vicki's idea of merging and re-importing volume 2 is the best method to deal with this.
From the copyrights page of my copy of volume 2:The Early Asimov first published in Great Brittain (in one volume) by Victor Gollancz Ltd 1973
I will attempt to find the ISBN and post it here when I do.
Hmm, I found The Early Asimov on Wikipedia, which gave me the ISBN 0385039794 associated with this edition of The Early Asimov: The Early Asimov or Eleven Years of Trying which is currently combined as an edition of Volume 1. That ISBN doesn't register in WorldCat OR The Library of Congress, but I found a list of different publications of The Early Asimov here with the ISBN listed, and if you search GoogleBooks for the ISBN a Publisher's Trade List with the book information confirms that The Early Asimov with that ISBN was for sale then, but doesn't give publication information about it.
I did find several ISBNs for the single volume version and all such books were listed on Goodreads:From WorldCat:0449238733 9780449238738 http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/2126561The Early Asimov: Book One
0575016442 9780575016446 http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/59185217Early Asimov
From Amazon:ISBN-10: 0385039794
ISBN-13: 978-0385039796
http://www.amazon.com/Early-Asimov-Eleven-Years-Trying/dp/0385039794The Early Asimov or Eleven Years of Trying
Peter wrote: "From WorldCat:0449238733 9780449238738 http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/2126561
The Early Asimov Book One"
According to the Worldcat entry that edition is part of a two volume set. Looking at the isfdb link Vicky provided there appears to be at least three different groupings:
a) single volume
b) three volume set
c) two volume set
I will look at it more closely tonight and try to get it sorted. :S
As a Librarian who has worked with WorldCat (part of my job in the real world), the multiple entries are because different libraries have handled the series as either a Series or as Separate Volumes. Some WorldCat records are better because of who entered the record. Just my two cents.
Ron wrote: "Some WorldCat records are better because of who entered the record. "Just the same as the records here at Goodreads.
As a retired software engineer, I know that what you get out is only as good as the data put in. In the Computer Science world, there is an acronym for this phenomenon: GIGO (Garbage In, Garbage Out).
I think it is a big part of the reason we need Librarians (both here and RW).
vicki_girl wrote: "Looking at the isfdb link Vicky provided there appears to be at least three different groupings:a) single volume
b) three volume set
c) two volume set"
According to what I have seen on Amazon.com and Amazon UK, these books have been published and sold as:
a) single volume
b) two volume set (with each book having individual ISBN and the set having ASIN)
c) three volumes sold separately
d) three volume set (made of books from c) in slipcase with either/both ISBN or/and ASIN)
Hope this helps.
Mod
This implies that while Amazon may have sold them that way, the publisher did not so intend, and they should be listed as two separate books, but not as a set.
rivka wrote: "Peter wrote: "b) two volume set (with each book having individual ISBN and the set having ASIN)"This implies that while Amazon may have sold them that way, the publisher did not so intend, and th..."
I haven't seen anyplace the 2 volume set had been sold new as individual volumes. All references I found show the 2 volume set sold as a set (possible shrink-wrapped). It may have had its own ISBN, but I haven't checked.
The 3 volume set, however, was released across time as 3 independent volumes, with the set released simultaneously with the 3rd volume.
However, I see no reason that the sets should be listed separately from the volumes; rather, I think the sets should be listed as NAB, with instructions to list as the individual volumes. (Possibly links to the individual volumes should be included to make this easier.)
Mod
Why? If the books were also/primarily sold as sets, then there is no reason they should not be so listed here.
rivka wrote: "Peter wrote: "I think the sets should be listed as NAB, with instructions to list as the individual volumes."Why? If the books were also/primarily sold as sets, then there is no reason they shoul..."
Because then either the sets would have to be included as editions of each book or vice versa, otherwise the ratings/reviews of the individual volumes would not be properly linked.
Mod
OK, so how can the ratings be considered valid if part of the ratings for volume 1 show up under the group of editions of the volume and the rest of the ratings are divided among the various editions of the sets?In statistics, we used to call that an error of composition.
Mod
GR stats are going to suffer from various selection biases, which would be far larger factors than this. No one is claiming GR ratings are scientifically rigorous. They can be useful and interesting anyway, no?
rivka wrote: "Valid in what sense? You want to start doing chi squares on them? ;)GR stats are going to suffer from various selection biases, which would be far larger factors than this. No one is claiming GR ..."
Wouldn't do chi-squared on them. The ratings are ordinals (as opposed to nominal, interval, or ratio). However, to get a "real" average rating, you must do a weighted average, but the user does not have the weights (number of ratings).
I do usually find the ratings useful and interesting, and will sometimes use them to choose between 2 books or to decide which to read first. If they are not reasonably accurate, they serve no purpose.
Just to give an extreme example, if 1 person rates the set at 1 and 100 people rate the volume at 5, then it would appear that the combined rating is 3.0 ( 1+5 / 2 ) instead of the more accurate 4.96 (501/101).
Does this make any sense?
Well, I have sorted out the the various volumes etc.Single volume and complete collection editions:
http://www.goodreads.com/work/edition...
Volume 1 of 3: http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/11...
Volume 2 of 3: http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/41...
Volume 3 of 3: http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/11...
Book 1 of 2: http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/74...
Book 2 of 2: http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/41...
Please review these and let me know if there are any mistakes.
Mod
Peter, your example makes perfect mathetmatical sense. But I still think that the selection biases swamp any other issues.
For example: people are far more likely to rate books they have strong opinions about. So 1s and 5s are probably more likely (in general) than anything else.
GR is more than 50% female, and the members skew young as well.
Recent books (and editions) are more likely to have ratings than older ones. Since American members make up the majority (pretty sure this is still true, although I know we've had some shifts) of members, American editions, authors, etc. will be more likely to have ratings.
Of course, all that ignores the very basic fact that each and every rating is an OPINION of a single user -- at a single point in time. Maybe I was having a sucky day, so I didn't enjoy a book as much and gave it two stars. Then again, maybe because I was having a sucky day I found the same book cathartic and moving, and gave it four stars!
vicki_girl, it looks like you deserve 5 stars yourself. No errors that I could find.I do have a copy of the Book 2 of 2 version, published Dec. 1974 (1st print of this edition!), Fawcett Crest Q2548 with ISBN-10: 0449025845 and ISBN-13: 9780449025840. This is the other half of the set with the edition listed on GR here The Early Asimov: Book One
Just for completeness, Amazon lists the 2 volume set under
2 Vol Lot: The Early Asimov (Bks 1 and 2 Sold as set) [Mass Market Paperback]
Mass Market Paperback: 605 pages
Publisher: Fawcett Crest
Language: English
ASIN: B000KK9DBM
rivka wrote: "(The chi squared comment was a joke. I do recall enough stats to recognize that they'd be the wrong test. I always liked the name, though.)Peter, your example makes perfect mathematical sense. ..."
You are probably right about the biases, but using large number sets is supposed to reduce the variability due to that. I'm sure (?) you remember that the standard deviation of samples of size n have a standard deviation of pop. std. dev. / sqrt( n ) for so-called normal populations. (BTW, I knew the chi-squared comment was a joke, although it would be possible to use it since GR stores the individual ratings of each user.)
I do tend to think like an engineer, having done that type of work for over 20 years. My computer science training makes me think in terms of data reuse. Please bear that in mind when considering the following:
1. Over time, the data set will get large. Variability caused by biases tend to be reduced when working with large data sets. (See Central Limit Theorem.) Nonparametric treatment of ratings removes another large source of error due to the biases you mention.
2. Some time in the future, some researcher may want to try to quantify the traits that make one book more "interesting" than another to a given target audience. (Think multilinear regression or ANOVA, for example.)
3. GIGO - Regardless of biases (which can not be controlled), building the best data set possible will reduce any errors for whatever use the data is put.
Please don't get me wrong - I think this is a GREAT site/service that is being provided; I only wish to help improve it in whatever poor way I can. I know that the time the moderators/librarians put in is quite valuable. (I spend a lot of time moderating on other sites; I know how much work is involved.)
rivka: Since this is getting into a discussion far from the subject of this thread, I'd be more than happy to continue to discuss it with you off-list. (Just message me using the GR messaging system.)
Mod
rivka wrote: "While interesting, I doubt a continued discussion is likely to be fruitful. I have nothing to do with the programming or prioritization at GR. I do know that the fact that series (and similar) can ..."Agreed.
I was just giving you a chance to continue the discussion, if you wished, without taking up everyone's time.
This is an issue for those who decide GR policies (and write the Librarians Manual). It will need to be addressed some day, but it is nowhere near the highest priority. (There are too many entries that need corrections and too many editions and authors that need merging and combining, among other more pressing issues.)
Peter wrote: "vicki_girl, it looks like you deserve 5 stars yourself. No errors that I could find.I do have a copy of the Book 2 of 2 version, published Dec. 1974 (1st print of this edition!), Fawcett Crest Q2..."
Thanks! :)
I added your edition of Book 2 to the GR database:
http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/12...
Goodreads Librarians Group
Books mentioned in this topic
EARLY ASIMOV BOOK I (other topics)The Early Asimov or, Eleven Years of Trying (other topics)
The Early Asimov, or Eleven Years of Trying (other topics)
EARLY ASIMOV BOOK I (other topics)
The Early Asimov or, Eleven Years of Trying (other topics)
More...
The picture matches http://www.amazon.co.uk/Early-Asimov-... (Goodreads The Early Asimov: v. 1).
Considering that there currently are 246 ratings and 13 reviews of the currently listed book, what can and should be done to correct this?