Use of profanity in Y/A novels, and lack thereof in Sebastian The Great

[Scylar]

This is Scy. I just thought any questions and commentary on the use of profanity in Y/A in general, and STG in particular, could go here.

[Byron]

I think the way profanity was described in STG was very very amusing... and in the case of STG, appropeiate..

In a different story, with a different type of writing then the use of profanity can be effective. Sometimes because the character is inclined to profanity or to really emphasize an emotion - a la STG..

IRL most kids swear or at least say words that other people consider swear words but they may not around adults or at least around family.. so again back to the character in the story, the type of story and the type of writing...

[Darkm]

I think that completely avoid profanities may be unreal. It doesn't have necessary to be included in each book, it depends from the character.

[Kaje]

I remember a discussion by Chris Crutcher (I think in his notes for The Sledding Hill) where he talked about not using any profanity. He did it in that book so that if it was banned, the school-boards would have to admit it was for content and not for language. But otherwise it's hard to write realistic YA characters without swearing.

Have you hung around teenage boys recently? Profanity is so common it is banal, like space-filler. I have a hard enough time making my teen characters sound natural without censoring their speech. Unless a character is interacting only in formal situations, I think you have to include some bad language (and even then, it you do any thoughts/interior monologue it's gonna be there.) Sad commentary, perhaps, on the decline of polite speech but that's my take.

[Connor]

It also depends on the family, too. When I was growing up, my mother didn't let us use the word "butt" until my brother and I were... 12? 13? 14? We weren't allowed to use the word "fart" at all, and The Big Swears still aren't -- though damn and hell are okay in small quantities.

(I had the very weird experience of telling a group of co-workers that I'd been on the phone with a client while one of my co-workers walked around behind me, using a word I wasn't allowed to use, growing up. They waited on tenterhooks for me to come out with whatever horrible swear it was... The word? Fartknocker. They were understandably confused and disappointed.)

My brother tends to use profanity as a filler when he's around other people (who do the same thing), but he tones it down around our mom and around small children.

Weirdly enough, my mom doesn't like the avoidance frigging, but freaking, bloody, and bint are okay.

Personally, I try to let my characters, the setting, and the social mores of the time period determine what kind of vocabulary they'll use and with whom. My early-19th-century boys with Catholic backgrounds aren't likely to use 'G*d' as an exclamation or oath, no matter how good they feel; my guy-who-was-a-bird follows the example of the guy he's in love with and doesn't swear in front of his beloved's parents; my deeply-dyslexic bi gangster sprinkles hell through his utterly agrammatic sentences like he sprinkles cinnamon sugar on his toast: liberally.

In my YA works, there's a lot less profanity, and the characters are more likely to use avoidances. Then again, I tend to keep the "grown-up" words for the sex scenes, and since I tend toward no sex or fade-to-black sex in my YA, that cuts out a lot of the 'objectionable' material right there. That's just what's right for me, though -- everyone has their own lines and limits.

[Jo]

I try not to have my characters use swear words for the same reason I try not to have them have sex: personal preference. Teenagers definitely swear a lot; just looking at the Facebook posts from the teens I'm friends with proves that. But I just prefer not to write a lot of swearing. If I have a character swearing, I usually just write, "He swore" instead of using the actual words. On the rare occasions when I do use the words, I think it's more emphatic than if I wrote them as frequently as a real-life teen probably would.

That said, the narrator in the YA GLBT werewolf novel that I just had accepted does use more profanity (and more sexual language) than my typical YA characters. It just fit his story and the character, so I went with it. As an author, it's a fine line sometimes between keeping true to my own preferences and beliefs, and keeping true to the character. I usually choose staying true to the character if I have to choose, because teens are going to know if I'm faking it.

My ex-husband swore literally every third or fourth word (he got angry with me once for complaining, so challenged me to tally how often he swore). He reached the point where he used that language so often he didn't even know he was doing it. The F-word, S-word, etc. were just punctuation for him.

[D.V.]

It's funny, I'm sure if I recorded myself I'd hear enough swear words to make a sailor blush, but I rarely use them in anything I write. I wouldn't see a problem with them in YA books, but I suppose it depends on character/context.

[Kaje]

We use very little profanity around the house - almost none, in truth, despite having teenagers (although they are girls, which helps I think.) In my case, I write far more of it than I use in speech, especially in my adult books. I don't use as much in my YA as would probably be realistic (I think "f***ing" has become the all-purpose word for "very" in teen boy speak, judging by the groups hanging out in the mall.) But I do use some where anything less would seem phony to me.

[Scylar]

Kaje wrote: "We use very little profanity around the house - almost none, in truth, despite having teenagers (although they are girls, which helps I think.) In my case, I write far more of it than I use in spe..."

I know exactly what you mean about the teens using "f**cking" as a synonym for "very." BUt if you read STG you will see that I completely avoided any of that type of language in the version that you will read. But in the first draft of the book, I had all the other teens using graphic profanity except for Ian, who does not use that type of language at all. And so I will definitely appreciate opinions from all of you guys on the lack of graphic language in STG. BUt we will have to postpone this conversation until November when I make the ebook available.

[Scylar]

Byron wrote: "I think the way profanity was described in STG was very very amusing... and in the case of STG, appropeiate..

In a different story, with a different type of writing then the use of profanity can ..."

Hey, Byron. I am glad you thought it was amusing. I tried to make it a little more pleasant. I even thought of switching to include the profanity after Sebastian finally admits his sexuality, but .... Let's wait till November.

[Scylar]

Kaje wrote: "I remember a discussion by Chris Crutcher (I think in his notes for The Sledding Hill) where he talked about not using any profanity. He did it in that book so that if it was banned,..."

But then also, we have to consider whether by including this type of language we are putting our stamp of approval upon it. Do we want to condone that type of language?

[Scylar]

Connor wrote: "It also depends on the family, too. When I was growing up, my mother didn't let us use the word "butt" until my brother and I were... 12? 13? 14? We weren't allowed to use the word "fart" at all, a..."

Hey, COnner. THose seem to be very reasonable guidelines.

[Scylar]

Jo wrote: "I try not to have my characters use swear words for the same reason I try not to have them have sex: personal preference. Teenagers definitely swear a lot; just looking at the Facebook posts from t..."

HEy, Jo. Yeah, that would be understandable for a werewolf character. SInce it's not a human, then perhaps the profanity and sex is accepted more as a fantasy than reality. SO does the werewolf look like Taylor Lautner? Lol.

[Scylar]

D.V. wrote: "It's funny, I'm sure if I recorded myself I'd hear enough swear words to make a sailor blush, but I rarely use them in anything I write. I wouldn't see a problem with them in YA books, but I suppos..."

Hey, DV. SO you rarely use profanity in your writing? ANd it works?

[Jo]

Scylar, he doesn't become a werewolf until about a third to halfway through the book, but the profanity happens before that. It just fit the character and the guys he hangs out with. (I modeled his friends--including their names--on two guys I went to school with.) Tobias, the main character, is very angry in general and tries to keep his temper most of the time; swearing is the one way the anger gets out without his trying to control it.

And no, he doesn't look like Taylor Lautner--he's cuter. LOL

[Kaje]

Cuter? Really?

[D.V.]

Scylar wrote: "D.V. wrote: "It's funny, I'm sure if I recorded myself I'd hear enough swear words to make a sailor blush, but I rarely use them in anything I write. I wouldn't see a problem with them in YA books,..."

Yeah it's funny really, but that said it would depend on the character. I haven't really written anything that demanded it... yet lol.

[Jo]

Kaje, I may be a bit biased, but I think he's cuter... Of course, he only exists in my brain, so I can't show you a picture. (Except for the picture on the cover of my adult M/M romance...a 30-something Tobias is the love interest in that novel, and then I got the brilliant idea of writing his backstory as a YA novel.)

[Kaje]

Jo wrote: "Kaje, I may be a bit biased, but I think he's cuter... Of course, he only exists in my brain, so I can't show you a picture. (Except for the picture on the cover of my adult M/M romance...a 30-some..."

I love the idea, although it may be difficult to keep your YA and M/M pen names separate that way... In my case, I figure the names will be content warnings, not secret identities, but I'm not sure how discrete you're being.

[Jo]

Yeah, I am a bit concerned about the pen name thing. In most places online where I'm known by my romance pen name, they already know that I'm also Jo Ramsey. The issue will be keeping the romance pen name hidden from the people who know me as Jo Ramsey. So far, I've managed to keep the romance name secret in the places where I post exclusively as Jo. Since my romance tends to be explicit, I want to keep the romance persona a secret to avoid things like being refused chances to do school visits, having people in my church find out what I write, etc.

I figure if there is an issue, I'll just say that I'm friends with the romance author who created the character, and she gave me permission to write the YA story. LOL

[Kaje]

Jo wrote: "I figure if there is an issue, I'll just say that I'm friends with the romance author who created the character, and she gave me permission to write the YA story. LOL..."

Which is true enough...veeery good friends. Well, I hope it goes OK and I look forward to the YA.

[D.V.]

Why don't you just change the names in the YA book slightly. I mean that way the passion you have for your characters would stay intact and you could keep the genres separate? If you intend it as a prequel, then the future is a blank slate?

[Jo]

Thanks, Kaje :)

D.V., I did think about doing that, but it wouldn't have been the same character to me. The name is part of the character; to me it would be like trying to change one of my kids' names. Besides, the book is being published by Featherweight, which is affiliated with MLR Press; MLR published the adult M/M novel. So they already know the characters. I think it'll work out okay. It isn't like I'm going to be telling teenagers to go read the adult M/M novel to find out more. LOL

[D.V.]

Hey Jo, I understand totally. I think it's a wicked idea to tell the back story to be honest :) I don't think I'll ever consider myself a writer, long story, but I have fell in love with some of the characters I've written. I love them as much as my family and friends :) I guess I'm saying, sometimes a story needs to be told.

[Jo]

Scylar, sorry... I think we hijacked your thread :(

D.V., it started as a joke...I was talking to the owner of the publishing company about doing a hetero shifter romance novel using some of the minor characters from the M/M one (the company also has a hetero imprint), and then made the mistake of saying, "If I don't watch out, I'll be writing a YA shifter novel too." An hour later, I realized the back story *was* a YA novel, and the rest is history. LOL

[Byron]

I'm VERY intrigued now.. (I was before, but it's like I HAVE to know now) am I looking for a book by Jo R at MLR???

[Scylar]

Jo wrote: "Kaje, I may be a bit biased, but I think he's cuter... Of course, he only exists in my brain, so I can't show you a picture. (Except for the picture on the cover of my adult M/M romance...a 30-some..."

Well, in STG, Sebastian declares that Taylor Lautner is absolute beauty personified. SO there. Your character can't be cuter! LOL.

[Scylar]

Jo wrote: "Yeah, I am a bit concerned about the pen name thing. In most places online where I'm known by my romance pen name, they already know that I'm also Jo Ramsey. The issue will be keeping the romance p..."

I too am considering using a pen name if I write adult romance. But then again, will it matter to "those kinds of people"? The fact that we wrote a story with gay characters may be enough to turn off "those people." So will it make a difference if they also discover we write explicit adult romance?

[Scylar]

Kaje wrote: "Jo wrote: "Kaje, I may be a bit biased, but I think he's cuter... Of course, he only exists in my brain, so I can't show you a picture. (Except for the picture on the cover of my adult M/M romance...."

So Kaje, you do not use different pen names for your explicit adult romances as opposed to your Y/A?

[Kaje]

I use Kaje Harper for the adult explicit stuff, and have decided to use Kira Harp for the YA. I'm not trying to keep them separate as Jo is, because I don't anticipate being asked to speak at schools, etc. (My YA is limited to a couple of free shorts so far.) And neither one is my real name, which avoids the lose-my-job, people at church thing.

Mainly, I want someone who picks up one of my YA and likes it to have some warning about the genre, so they don't buy one of my M/M books assuming it will be similar and run head on into an explicit sex scene (and my M/M is not erotica but it is full frontal sex.) This way, people can go back and forth if they choose, but they should have some idea of the level of explicitness they will see.

[Scylar]

Kaje wrote: "I use Kaje Harper for the adult explicit stuff, and have decided to use Kira Harp for the YA. I'm not trying to keep them separate as Jo is, because I don't anticipate being asked to speak at scho..."

Great to know, Kaje. I like your reasoning. So I will use a different nom de plume for writing adult fiction.

And I already read one of your shorts, and I really like your writing style. So you should expand into novels.

Now what do you mean "my M/M is not erotica but it is full frontal sex"? What is the difference?

[Kaje]

I guess to me if the book is erotica, then the sex is the story and the plot is used to carry the characters from sex scene to sex scene. If the book is romance then the sex may be explicit but it happens only when appropriate to the plot, and the non-sex parts of the book are the critical ones. My books could be read with the sex scenes basically cut out and they would still be complete and make sense, I think. Life Lessons is about 250 pages and there are 4 sex scenes in it. I try to make them hot (thus the not-for-YA warning) but they don't carry the book.

Of course, it is a continuum. But I think I'm on the less-sex end of the m/m romance spectrum.

[Scylar]

Thanks for that very enlightening explanation. So I see I would never write erotica. The plot is so very important for me as well. SO then I like reading and writing romance. I will check out Life Lessons.

[Kaje]

Lies and Consequences is a freebie, if you just want to check out my style (although I think Life Lessons is a better book. Lies was my first and self-pubbed without even a beta reader let alone an editor.)

[Byron]

Kaje wrote: "I use Kaje Harper for the adult explicit stuff, and have decided to use Kira Harp for the YA. I'm not trying to keep them separate as Jo is, because I don't anticipate being asked to speak at scho..."

And it makes it easier for fans of your writing style to read ALL your work...

[Kaje]

I hope so, as long as it's a specific choice, either way. People pay money for my stuff and I want them to be happy with what they get. But I like thinking there will be crossover. (I certainly read both genres myself.)

[Byron]

Scylar wrote: "Thanks for that very enlightening explanation. So I see I would never write erotica. The plot is so very important for me as well. SO then I like reading and writing romance. I will check out L..."

I can DEFINITELY recommend this to you Scy..

[Jo]

Byron, no... Jo Ramsey is exclusively young adult books. You won't find anything at MLR under this name. I'd rather not give out my romance pen name here because I know we have some teens on this group.

Scylar, I respect Sebastian's opinion, but I still think my werewolf is cuter :P LOL

I second Kaje's definition of erotica vs. romance. My romances have explicit scenes (hence why I sometimes call them erotic romances), but the focus of the story is on the romance--the meeting, the development of the relationship, the happy ending. The sex in those books is part of the development of the relationship, not just so there's sex in the story, if that makes sense.

I think erotica does have a plot, though. The plot might be heavily about the sex, but there's still a plot. Otherwise it's just porn.

[Byron]

Oh.. Jo, I wasn't expecting you to put it here, or even asking... *G* maybe I'll just have a hunt through the MLR authors for awesome books.. One of them is bound to be you.. *LOL*

(actually I don't think I've given MLR enough of my credit card yet.. hehehe.. might be worth a trip to that den next week..)

[Jo]

It's a werewolf book, so that'll make it easier for you. LOL

[Byron]

<3 's @ Jo (for yourself & the Werewolf's!)