Grace Filled Fiction Spotlight discussion
Crafting Realistic Christian Fic
>
Is message the most important thing?
It annoys me on a number of levels. What specifically bothers you?
The audience will get what they want/deserve.
Mod
Gosh, I dunno, I want good writing which means the story can't be one dimensional. It must have levels. It has to be well written and it should also show a world view, and also themes and subthemes. But it has to be a good read, or I'll put it down.
I love the little arrow thingie on Amazon. That way I at least get a chance to determine if the author is up my alley.
Not to me. If a writer wants to send a message, they should write a non-fiction book. If they are writing fiction, then story and characterization comes first. The message will come out of a careful and skilled application of writing skills and attention to the story and development of characters.
Mod
Well said. :)
Lady Danielle "The Book Huntress" wrote: "Not to me. If a writer wants to send a message, they should write a non-fiction book. If they are writing fiction, then story and characterization comes first. The message will come out of a caref..."And there you have it.
Amen
My concern is that the actual quality of the writing is secondary. Secondary, at best. I think that's a shame.
I’m gonna play Ransom Note Cut & Paste from Dorothy Sayers here.***
No piety in the worker will compensate for work that is not true to itself; for any work that is untrue to its own technique is a living lie.
Yet in Her own buildings, in Her own ecclesiastical art and music, in Her hymns and prayers, in Her sermons and in Her little books of devotion, the Church will tolerate, or permit a pious intention to excuse work so ugly, so pretentious, so tawdry and twaddling, so insincere and insipid, so bad as to shock and horrify any decent draftsman.
And why? Simply because She has lost all sense of the fact that the living and eternal truth is expressed in work only so far as that work is true in itself, to itself, to the standards of its own technique. She has forgotten that the secular vocation is sacred. Forgotten that a building must be good architecture before it can be a good church; that a painting must be well painted before it can be a good sacred picture; that work must be good work before it can call itself God’s work.
***
Mod
***
No piety in the worker will compensate for work that is not true to itself; for any work that is untrue to its own technique i..."
Oh, Amen, Amen to that. :)
A good/truth-filled message is essential, but it is useless if it is inaccessible. If the quality of my writing hinders the hearing of my message, then my message has no value.
Mod
I hear you. I read a novel to find out what the story is the characters are in. If I can see the author's hand clumsily dropping morality and spirituality into the story it pulls me right out of the story. I want to get the spiritual message from how the characters relate to each other.
Nike, That's why I don't read nearly as much Christian fiction as I should.
Mod
Please forgive me for shameless self promotion, but in my debut novel BURNING HEARTS, I don't think you'll see my hand dropping anything. In fact in a review on Long And Short Of It Reviews the reviewer said the book didn't offer pat spiritual solutions, but rather went deeper.
Thanks for the recommendation, Nike.
Mod
My pleasure. :)
I agree with much of what's been said above. However, several things strike me.1. Many years ago a lovely Christian lady who used to lay on outreach events in her home told me that she always used her best china because "only the best is good enough for the Lord."
2. Following through on that thought, I have sometimes argued (provocatively, not necessarily out of conviction) that we should dress for the King, when we see him in church, as if we would if we were going to see the Queen in Buckingham Palace.
3. The reverse of that is that there are those who sincerely believe that since we were created in only our birthday suits and God knows our hearts, there is no need to "polish and preen".
4. To add to that thought, there are those who would quote scriptures showing that we can only bring fish and loaves and that it is only by the Holy Spirit that power and perfection can be breathed into them.
So what am I saying? Personally, I believe that we should always bring the best that we can - in all walks of life. That means that the writing and entertainment factor should be at least as good as what can be offered by "worldly" writers. Jesus didn't put out a banal message. He spoke with power and conviction, using wonderfully imaginative and provocative story-telling to do so. He's the one we're following. Why should we expect that anything less will do.
If I may be so bold, following Nike's example above, my novel A PAINFUL POST MORTEM is character-led. It would appear, from the many reviews it has received, that the story and characters are engaging. And like real life, there are messy thought processes, and messy endings. But there's also a faith dimension which is at times humorous and at others quite touching. No pat answers there, either.
I read a book recently where I thought the writing was decent, not incredible, but I was really thoroughly touched by the message. It was very powerful. Of course, in this case the story itself was compelling. Overall to me, that makes for a great book. Maybe the comment that kicked this all off just wasn't phrased well. In the end the way the story effects us is what really counts and sells books. If the writing is too bad, the book can't have an effect on us. And no, we shouldn't just cheer on the message if the book isn't good. I certainly hope that wasn't the case.I can also think of examples in women's fiction and literary fiction where there's not really much "story" going on. It's more of a character exploration. Those can end up being powerful as well, although someone used to an action driven plot might not be impressed by the story elements.
Linking this to the whole realistic/edgy theme here. I've had several reviews now of my novel by conservative Christians who didn't love the edgier elements but accepted them and even recommended the book because the message was strong and justified the edginess. So there certainly is an important role for the message to play. As long as the writing is good as well.
I've read a lot of well-written Christian books that have had little to no message and for the most part were quite dull, but like I said, well-written. So give me a story where the technique isn't the greatest (but the writing isn't distracting in that it is so bad that I can't get past that) and I prefer that to a well-writing, yet boring story any day.
Michelle, you seem to be equating "no message" with "boring" -- I don't think those have to be the same thing.
Alan wrote: "Michelle, you seem to be equating "no message" with "boring" -- I don't think those have to be the same thing."For me they are. If there is no point to a story or no heart to it then I get bored. I want to feel something whether it's joy, anger, love, whatever. But to read a bunch of pretty words that don't say much is, for me, boring. My heart has to engage or it's a waste of my time. Maybe it has to do with the reason we read in the first place. I love to learn and anything that challenges me in that way that I learn from on an either physical, emotional, or spiritual level is not boring to me.
I've sat through plenty of boring sermons -- good content maybe, but not well-told, and not gripping to me personally, and therefore not impactful or life-changing.But I guess this is the core of my general "agree to disagree" attitude towards CBA fiction in general. I don't think a good message is enough to make a book good.
I also enjoy reading novels that challenge me intellectually, spiritually, emotionally, etc ... I am just much more likely to find those challenging aspects in a mainstream novel.
Mod
Mel, I certainly think we should bring attention to our work, in a low key way. We are trying to promote the purchase and reading of the more new wave, realistic, unsanitized fiction after all. :)
Mod
Let us know what the title of your novel is. Pls.
Thanks for asking, Nike.My novel is Dance of the Dandelion. I just added it to the group bookshelf today. I feel confident that even Alan will find no complaint with the writing :)I really strove to find that sweet spot where popular fiction and literary fiction meet.
What's been wonderful has been that very conservative Christians have seen the value and purpose of the edginess in this novel, as I strive to illustrate the true meaning of love opposed to the many false ideas the world promotes. There is some sensuality, but sin is also clearly depicted as sin, and it comes with consequences.
Mod
Thanks, Nike :) I've heard great things about yours as well.
Mod
Here's praying and wishing and hoping for great sales for both of us. :)
Mod
I think the more active discussions get going in these Christian groups the better it is for Christian fiction and for our sales.
It's a place readers can get to know writers and also a place readers can give us their opinion.
I'm reading a Christian Fiction book right now that has a great message. The problem? The book is billed as a dark/scary thriller. This it is not. I've found myself wincing and saying things to my wife such as "It's so unfortunate that this is why people roll their eyes and don't take Christian themed fiction seriously." A great message is without a doubt extremely important - but lets face it. No one is going to read your book if it's boring, wooden, and otherwise unrealistic.
That is where I am at, Stu. I am looking for fewer cringe-inducing moments in my Christian novels. Maybe it's also that we are dudes -- not the target market for CBA fiction.
Alan wrote: "That is where I am at, Stu. I am looking for fewer cringe-inducing moments in my Christian novels. Maybe it's also that we are dudes -- not the target market for CBA fiction."
Without a doubt, Alan. Without a doubt.
I hate to be the guy that shamelessly plugs his stuff but I honestly think you'd like it.
Check it out of you're ready for something outside of your "Christian" comfort zone.
http://www.amazon.com/Through-Fury-Da...
Mod
I used to get recommendations from Christians telling me read this book. It's a seat of the pants thriller. I bought a few of these recommended books. One didn't have the police procedure down. Another was anything but seat of the pants. I would've termed it a cozy mystery with a bit of blood at the murder scene.
I think what Christians call chilling and thrilling the gen market finds rather staid. I'm used to the emotional ride Michael Connelly give when his Det. Harry Bosch arrives at a murder scene. It's not that he describes the gore and guts in detail. He gives an overview. The reader gets that it's a bloody mess, but what is chilling is Bosch's reaction to it, which is intense.
If you want to read a true dark and scary Christian thriller, Steven James is your author. Now you have to know that James' villians will be over the top. I've seen that in gen market. In Lee Child's Jack Reacher series the villians are also way over the top.
The Knight won the Inspy Awards in the Suspense/Thriller category last year.
The Knight, eh? Thanks. I'll look into that. And I agree: I don't think we're the typical CBA target market. Or typical CBA writers, for that matter.
Shameless self-promotion: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0578...
Thanks.
Mod
And I agree: I don't think we're the typical CBA target market. Or typical CBA writers, for that matter.
Shameless self-promotion: http://www.amazon..."
One reason this group is here is to showcase novels for those would like to read Christian fiction that's more new wave, realistic, edgy, authentic, gritty, and less sanitized.
Often we don't know where to find these novels. So, when we come across a good one, we should recommend it here.
Just ordered The Knight on PaperbackSwap. First chapter hooked me. Thanks for the recommend.
Mod
Thanks for the recommend."
YOu bet. enjoy!
Mod
But first the heroine can't have full lips and be curvy. That won't fly at w/this publisher. I guess she can't be Italian, Spanish, Greek, or have any negroid blood in her. I'm being fascitious. She's a typical fiesty western cowgirl. But since when can't a person not be allowed to have certain facial features???
There are a few other changes that were noted w/page number...and they all had to do with the heroine's "sensulaity." I was floored, as this is basically a sweet romance.
Just when I thought it was getting a little better, I hear this. Grrrrr
Message in the form of a book's overall theme that flows naturally as part of the story and its characters is good. Message delivered in a "Now let me pull you out of the story and preach for awhile" is bad. The story becomes an excuse for another agenda.
Completely agree Shawna. Love a book with a message I really need, but doesnt intrude on the story. Absolutely hate stopping the story to be preached at. I steer clear of authors who treat their readers this way.
Mod
Shawna, I can't stand books that pull you out of the story to preach. It means the author's just not that good a writer.
A good Christian writer should be able to craft realistic Christian characters who resonate with readers and get all the Christian themes across as the story naturally progresses.
Mod
Janelle, If I only want the message I'll read a Christian life-style nonfiction book, or a devotional, or theology book.
Janelle wrote: "Completely agree Shawna. Love a book with a message I really need, but doesnt intrude on the story. Absolutely hate stopping the story to be preached at. I steer clear of authors who treat their re..."Ditto!
Mod
What I want to see in a Christian novel is how a realistically portrayed Christian heroine or hero interacts with the world as obstacles are thrown in her/his path by the author. How does the Christian main character interact with nobelievers? With pompous believers? Why aren't there as many pompous or bigotted believers in Christian novels as we tend to encounter in the pews?
Or how a realistically portrayed nonbelieving main character interacts with realistically portrayed Christians and nonChristians as the author hurls obstacles in the character's path. How does the nonbeliever MC react when encountering a judgemental Christian? These are the things I want to read about in Christian fiction.
Sorry...here's a shameless plug. My breakout novel BURNING HEARTS has a subtheme of holier than thou Christians putting obstacles in the path of a sincere nonbeliever...making it harder for him to approach the church.
Again, sorry for the plug. :)
Have you read Zora and Nicky: A Novel in Black and White, Nike? This has a lot of what you're talking about. I loved it for how it looked at people in the church, and how there are so many artificial divisions in Christ's body.
Maybe some Christian authors are sick of seeing bigotted or pompous Christians so often in the media/tv, they don't want to put them in their own writing.Lol.But seriously, I don't think we want to face up to the fact that there are Christians who are pompous, busybodies, or downright judgemental. Its a shame, because the non-christian writer or reader is certainly aware of it.
I think you are right Nike that we need to see more of this in Christian fiction, but somehow I don' think Christians will want a spotlight shone on their faults.
Janelle indicated that her first comment above was intended as facetious, but I think in some cases that consideration actually might apply. When secular TV/movies/literature clearly have a monolithic agenda of stereotyping ALL Christians as bigoted, judgmental and stupid, I think some Christian writers feel a natural defensive reluctance to pile on more of the same; just as Jewish writers in Nazi Germany or black writers in the Jim Crow era would have felt that writing to popular stereotypes of their people would have been in some way a betrayal. Even though I know that there are real-life individuals who feed the stereotypes, I'm not inclined to appreciate one-sided, selective portrayals of those individuals as the whole of the Christian community in secular media, and I've been known to dock points in my Goodreads ratings for that sort of thing. And for Christian fiction, I think a case can be made that presenting believers who DO represent the faith decently is a legitimate artistic strategy that's within the bounds of realism.That said, I think there's a place for exploring the shortcomings of the Christian community in Christian fiction, too! Indeed, Christian authors are the ones best able to do that, because we can do so with a balance that sees the good as well as the bad, and with an understanding of how legalism and judgmentalism are distortions of the Christian faith, not the natural outcome of it. That's not the same thing as simply piling on the stereotype and playing to it.
Grace Filled Fiction Spotlight
Books mentioned in this topic
Zora and Nicky (other topics)Burning Hearts (other topics)
The Knight (other topics)
Dance of the Dandelion (other topics)
Burning Hearts (other topics)
----------
"It had a great Christian message but a lousy story. Fortunately, I read these books for the encouraging and inspirational message, not for the entertainment."
----------
I wondered what the group thought of this sentiment, as both readers and writers. I may share a longer version of my thoughts later; I'll just say that this sentiment bothers me.