Is message the most important thing?

[Janelle]

Good point Werner. I think one of the problems with the way secular media portrays Christians is the inherent assumption that this is the way ALL Christians behave and think. Clearly this is not the case, and those who do behave this way are lacking something in the practice of their faith.
I do think though, that most Christian writers, if they were to portray some Christian characters negatively, would also portray either a change in those characters or other Christians living more authentically. If they did not, then the work could hardly be called Christian, could it.

[Werner]

Yes, Janelle, I think you're absolutely right! That's why I think Christian writers are the ones best qualified to handle that sort of theme in a way that's genuinely honest with reality, in both its good and bad aspects.

[Jason]

I believe the message is integral to any story, no matter what genre or anything, but the delivery is needed as well.

[Bill]

For me the story and the craft of writing come first. The message can appear as an undercurrent in the story. It should lead the readers to question preconceived notions. Instead of writing about the doctrine of grace, show it in action.

[Jason]

I completely agree with that, yet it's not only grace, I don't want to only read about the doctrines here and there (and feel like the writer's trying to convince me to go with their beliefs) but to read an applicable version of it in a realistic situation. Even if it may reflect a contrary idea to what the writer believes. That's what C.S. Lewis did, even though he didn't believe in universalism, he presented it anyway, likely to let the reader decide on their own what they want to believe in.

[Nike]

Janelle wrote: "Maybe some Christian authors are sick of seeing bigotted or pompous Christians so often in the media/tv, they don't want to put them in their own writing.Lol.
But seriously, I don't think we want t..."

Janelle, I think bigotted, pompous Christians belong in Christian fiction...shown as they are warts and all. But also shown in a three dimensional way. Let's not forget that these bigotted, pompous Christians love the Lord. When they're depicted in secular media they're made into a characature. Yet in the same story a pedophile or abortion doctor might be treated in a three dimensional way.

[Nike]

Werner wrote: "Janelle indicated that her first comment above was intended as facetious, but I think in some cases that consideration actually might apply. When secular TV/movies/literature clearly have a monoli..."

Werner,

I think it's really important, as Christian writers, to show how this bigotry came about. We are in a unique position to do so.

I also think there's something to be said about understanding how the various American Christian "movements" contributed to attitudes of demoninations and groups of Christians. People are born into a Christian family in a certain vein of Christianity or denomination and they may not ever have questioned anything they believe. This might make them myopic, narrow minded. They might come off as "mean spirited." But to portray them as "bad" in a story might miss the mark.

[Catherine]

I struggled with this in writing Through Rushing Water. Research uncovered some racist talk by Christians, including ministers. I put those racist words into my minister-characters' mouth, but I also showed his frustrations with his work. Being a minister on an Indian agency in the 1870s meant trying to turn the Indians into farmers as well as Christians, meant trying to please the government as well as the church. How can you tell people God loves them when they've suffered starvation, floods, drought, attacks, illness, grasshoppers, etc? How can you tell them God loves them when the supposed Christian government broke promises and tried to kill them off? No wonder ministers sometimes resorted to hate speech.

[Dan]

Thanks for the '3-dimensional' comment, Nike. Like you say, it's important to have characters, and not just caricatures.
I'm thinking respect--and even love--for characters makes and keeps them realistic. They might be 'good' or 'bad', but if authors value them (by letting them speak as they will rather than forcing words into their mouths, enter and leave situtions that 'fit' them, etc), characters are more likely to come off as realistic.

[Dustin]

Alan wrote: "I read this review recently on this site for a book by an extremely popular CBA author. I anonymized the book and the reviewer, because those details weren't what struck me, but the general sentime..."

While there are those out there that read strictly for an engaging story, I-for one-firmly believe that the message is key. It's most important, IMO.

[Nike]

Catherine wrote: "I struggled with this in writing Through Rushing Water. Research uncovered some racist talk by Christians, including ministers. I put those racist words into my minister-characters' mouth, but I al..."

Catherine, Basically we're writing about people, Christians and non, who are in messes, have created messes.

[Nike]

Dan wrote: "Thanks for the '3-dimensional' comment, Nike. Like you say, it's important to have characters, and not just caricatures.
I'm thinking respect--and even love--for characters makes and keeps them rea..."

Dan,

I just read a really good Christian military action-adventure novel. The author is retired military and it's all good. The military procedures and maneuvers are believable. But the banter between the men got to be so much that it struck me it was almost like a Mr. T televison series. Then I knew why there was so much humorous banter. It was to avoid the profanity that would have definitely occurred in the situation. Grrr. Give me a mild cuss word please and stop what's not real.

[Nike]

Dustin wrote: "Alan wrote: "I read this review recently on this site for a book by an extremely popular CBA author. I anonymized the book and the reviewer, because those details weren't what struck me, but the ge..."

Dustin, I think if you have a good author, you can have both message and story.

The Bible has violence and sex.

Just because it's clean doesn't mean it has a Christian message. Are we defining clean as Christian?

I think it can have sex, profanity and be extremely Christian in its themes and message.

[Dustin]

You are right, Nike, as long as the writing's good and it's conveying a good message, I see no reason why the reader can't have both. I think there should be both, actually. But I don't think God wants us to read and write about subjects (sex, profanity, saying His name in vain, etc..,) that aren't pleasing or glorifying to Him.

[Alan]

"But I don't think God wants us to read and write about subjects (sex, profanity, saying His name in vain, etc..,) that aren't pleasing or glorifying to Him."

profanity vs. obscenity vs. vulgarity is an interesting topic, as they don't all mean the same thing. Martin Luther was certainly vulgar in much of his language, describing his opponents and others in ways that many modern American evangelicals would cringe at.

And certainly in telling stories, having bad people do bad things should not be an issue, in and of itself -- the parables (and other parts of Scripture) detail many examples of bad people doing bad things.

[Nike]

Dustin wrote: "You are right, Nike, as long as the writing's good and it's conveying a good message, I see no reason why the reader can't have both. I think there should be both, actually. But I don't think God w..."

Alan,

How are we to write about obscene people, or are we to avoide them in our fiction...not have obscene characters? What about reaching those Christians who have fallen away into that lifestyle?

Martin Luther was a rough around the edges man, yet God picked him to straighten the church out. I think a more mild man would not have been able to do the job. The pope had assassins looking for Luther at every turn. The strain of his mission cost him the lives of both his wife and daughter and greatly diminished his emotional well being. It could well be said that by the end of his life he was losing his mind.

I think we have to be able to write about bad people doing bad things. Are we not at war with the evil one?

We even have to be able to write about good people doing bad things.

[Nike]

Dustin wrote: "You are right, Nike, as long as the writing's good and it's conveying a good message, I see no reason why the reader can't have both. I think there should be both, actually. But I don't think God w..."

Dustin,

Dustin, God Himself wrote about sex, violence, the most debased situations in the old testament.

I don't think there is any area that should be off limits to the Christian writer...or reader.

Christians should accurately write about life and the fight between good and evil.

[Skylar]

As some poet I can't recall said, "Though old the thought and oft expressed / 'tis his at last who says it best." It's not about the message. The message can be in a million different books. What sets one book apart from another is how well that message is expressed. Now, if some Christians are content just to hear the message again and again no matter how shabby the packaging, that's for them to decide, but if you want someone new to hear it, or to hear it TRULY ANEW, it better be well wrapped. I am bothered, though, bythe assumption that art shouldn't matter to the Christian, that beauty shouldn't matter, that only the message should matter, because Christianity is so much more than a message, it's also the greatest STORY ever told.

[Nike]

Skylar wrote: "As some poet I can't recall said, "Though old the thought and oft expressed / 'tis his at last who says it best." It's not about the message. The message can be in a million different books. What ..."

Skylar, I recall as a child, and I did not grow up in a Christian home, I thrilled to the reading of the nativity story on TV at Christmas. Yes, I'm that old...well I got the tail end of reading the birth of Jesus on TV. In the 20s - 40s it was the norm. I came a bit after that. But my point is, I found the story thrilling.

I don't find much Christian fiction thrilling. I was just moaning about the pile of Christian books I've promised to read and review when I'd really like to read something gen market that I will enjoy. That's sad. I hope there is a novel in that pile of Christian books that surprises me and knocks my socks off.

Please know that I have Christian authors I've asked to read their books. I know the books are good. But these are few and far between.

There's another thing, or maybe the main thing why I don't enjoy a lot of Christian fiction. It's all the same. I'm not putting downt the book that taught the snow-flake method of writing. But then everyone in Christian fiction was using that method. Well, all the books were constructed in the exact same way. If ACFW has a course on writing, or if Randy Ingermansol or Chip MacGregor write an article saying thus and so is the correct way to go. All Christian fiction for the next six months or more will sound just as they stipulated. Please don't misunderstand. They are being helpful. It's just the gen market is so much bigger that when an agent writes a how-to article it doesn't throw a blanket of uniformity across the entire gen market.

[Skylar]

I keep hearing about the snow-flake method but confess that I don't know what that is. I still use the fly-by-the-seat-of-my-pants method of writing. Now, I get more deliberately organized in REWRITES, after the first draft, but the first draft just comes as it comes. When I'm done, then I realize what the story is and rewrite it so the parts connect more clearly.

[Nike]

Skylar wrote: "I keep hearing about the snow-flake method but confess that I don't know what that is. I still use the fly-by-the-seat-of-my-pants method of writing. Now, I get more deliberately organized in REWRI..."

Skylar, I do the seat of the pants too, but I'm very organized. And I pay attention to rewrites.

[Elise]

Skylar wrote: "I keep hearing about the snow-flake method but confess that I don't know what that is. I still use the fly-by-the-seat-of-my-pants method of writing. Now, I get more deliberately organized in REWRI..."

You can find out what it is at: http://www.advancedfictionwriting.com...

It probably won't work for a pantser and I'm not sure it would work for me, but lots of people swear by it. Or is that the wrong expression to use in reference to a Christian fiction expert? :-)

[Nike]

Elise wrote: "Skylar wrote: "I keep hearing about the snow-flake method but confess that I don't know what that is. I still use the fly-by-the-seat-of-my-pants method of writing. Now, I get more deliberately org..."

Elise, LOL. Yes, indeed, many swear by it.