Anyone else buy books based on # of pages?

[Evilynn]

I'm one of those people who *have* to finish a book I've started, so I'm not overly fond of massive tomes if it's an author I've never tried before. Aside from that I don't think overly much about page count when I buy books.

[stormhawk]

I don't mind a long book.

I better not.

Neal Stephenson is one of my favorite authors.

He used to write "normal" books.

Then with Cryptonomicon they started weighing more and more and more.

Luckily, they're also chock full of lovely, intricate content, enough so that I happily tackled his "Baroque Cycle," which is three 1000+ page books.

It's a lot better since I got the Kindle, because electrons weigh pretty much the same no matter how long the book. Or at least it's a difference which makes no difference.

I'm reading A Dance With Dragons by George RR Martin right now, which is also a big, awful, thick book (I don't think I've seen a book go that far along the length meter on the home screen!). My wrists are certainly grateful that I have the Kindle edition rather than the hardback.

[Nels]

I like long books because I feel like I've accomplished something when I finish them. Of course, I make sure that the book is something I'm going to want to get through before I start. If it's an author I haven't read before, then a "normal" sized book is probably better. I do evaluate against some nebulous "minimum length" when I'm looking to buy books by author's I haven't read.

[Random]

Julia wrote: "I hate long, long books in hardback, because when I inevitably fall asleep reading them in bed, they hurt when I drop them on my face. At which point I often continue reading, because hey, I'm awake!"

I used to drop them on my husband's head. He got mad at me a lot. :D

Personally, book length isn't something I pay much attention to.

[Sarah]

OMG, *wipes eyes* You guys cracked me up with the whole "prayers" auto-correct bit there. I know that was a month ago and half of you probably don't even remember what it was all about...and this is why god created page history :)

I hadn't yet joined the group but the marvelous sense of humor of this one thread did it for me. Thank you! I love to laugh, especially when it's with total strangers just having fun.

:: waves ::

Hello, everyone. I'll have to have a good look around!

[Sarah]

Oh and on the thread TOPIC, I don't buy books based on page count but I definitely am another one who would DECLINE buying based on length. If it's too long, I have to know why I want to read it.

Then again, if it's an omnibus edition with multiple books (sequential in a series, forex, which SF/F genre is infamous for!) then yeah, I prefer to buy the "tomes."

I think the original poster was saying more of a "I didn't like it being ten bucks, thought that was way too expensive, but then saw it was a really long book so figured the page count would make the price tag worthwhile." And on those grounds, I refer you back to my omnibus reference.

I don't like fantasy genre (prefer SF) but I think fantasy genre, esp. High Fantasy, tends to be longer books just because of all the world-building involved so if I did like fantasy genre, I probably would like that they're longer books. Since I don't like the genre, I think part of my backbrain rationalizes that "Oh, and they're such long books!" as though that justifies my taste preference...as though I actually need to justify my personal taste preference. LOL

-sry

[colleen the convivial curmudgeon]

Sarah, The Webbiegrrl Writer wrote: "I don't like fantasy genre (prefer SF) but I think fantasy genre, esp. High Fantasy, tends to be longer books just because of all the world-building involved so if I did like fantasy genre, I probably would like that they're longer books..."

Conversely, I prefer fantasy over sci-fi, but I find that most of the epic tomes of fantasy have too much world-building or, perhaps more accurately, the world-building often comes across as expository instead of really being built into the story.

But, then, I'm a character oriented reader, so if a detailed description of a room's furnishings aren't important to the characters and/or story, then I don't give a flying flip... or even a prayer. ;)

[Trike]

I think the bloat in EFP (Extruded Fantasy Product) is the legacy of Lord of the Rings. Because let's face it, those books contain hundreds of unnecessary pages. But since they're the benchmark, many Fantasy authors think they have to include the side-trips and extensive background information LotR does.

I know there are a lot of people who get lost in Middle Earth and really take to heart all the lineages and "who begats" (you should hear Stephen Colbert go on about the intertwined relationships sometime - it's beyond ubergeek), but for most books that sort of thing is really unnecessary.

[colleen the convivial curmudgeon]

EFP - I like that. Gonna have to steal it. :>

[Trike]

I didn't come up with that, so I can't take credit. It's probably public domain. :)

[Sarah]

Sarah, The Webbiegrrl Writer wrote: "I don't like fantasy genre (prefer SF) but I think fantasy genre, esp. High Fantasy, tends to be longer books just because of all the world-building involved so..."

To which ± Colleen of the Crawling Chaos ± replied:
"Conversely, I prefer fantasy over sci-fi, but I find that most of the epic tomes of fantasy have too much world-building or, perhaps more accurately, the world-building often comes across as expository instead of really being built into the story.

But, then, I'm a character oriented reader, so if a detailed description of a room's furnishings aren't important to the characters and/or story, then I don't give a flying flip... or even a prayer. ;) "

Exactly!! I hate reading expository which probably explains why I hate writing it. I've been told my writing style is very visual, that I do a lot of "great world building without narrative" but I keep trying to force myself to please everyone and do the occasional description of a room. I don't want to fall prey to the fallacy of "the white room"

The piece I'm currently editing is definitely suffering slower pacing in the first 25,000 words due to the long, expository descriptions. I need to cut the opening of my current WIP down by half (I think) but so far all First Readers keep saying it reads well, so I'm torn.

Not only do I find those High Fantasy worlds boring, but the long descriptions are so slooooooowww pacing-wise, I just get doubly-bored. I think I'm suffering some of that drudgery myself, though. I want this first release to be one of those "unputdownable" reads, not just "read well" and once you get past the early section, the plot twists slam the reader *bam bam bam* and keep the pace going so it is unputdownable.

I do tend to blather on though, don't I? My writing usually sounds a lot better than my email/posts but I think I've spilled over into this book's opening chapters :-(

I think the reason more people like character-centered stories is that people are more able to identify with characters than we are with places or events. I don't really care how many hills the valley has or how high the castle tower is or how many gods these people worship. I care about what that means in terms of their daily life. What impact it has on their choices and motivations or how those 5 gods make or break people and what the people do to fight back ... because we all know the best stories are always about the triumph of the human spirit ^_^

[colleen the convivial curmudgeon]

Sarah, The Webbiegrrl Writer wrote: "I think the reason more people like character-centered stories is that people are more able to identify with characters than we are with places or events. I don't really care how many hills the valley has or how high the castle tower is or how many gods these people worship. I care about what that means in terms of their daily life. What impact it has on their choices and motivations or how those 5 gods make or break people and what the people do to fight back ... "

This is generally how I feel about things, but now I worry that, based on that lexicon you linked to, this would be considered "The Edges of Ideas". Heh.

[Sarah]

± Colleen of the Crawling Chaos ± wrote: "This is generally how I feel about things, but now I worry that, based on that lexicon you linked to, this would be considered "The Edges of Ideas". Heh. "

Isn't that Turkey City Lexicon fun to read? It's hilarious and true!

[Jon]

I try not to be influenced by the "bigger is better" mindset, especially since some of my favorite fantasy series have devolved into mega-page disappointments.

[Sarah]

I think the "bigger is better" rule of thumb has to apply when the price tag is "bigger" but I really don't like having to dredge through a long tome.

I think the one exception to my long book dislike is Heinlein--but he's always such a fast read anyway.

Oh and Asimov's Foundation books--the originals, not the add=ons by other authors (fanfic in his Foundation universe) but most of those weren't mega-long, just longer than 'most" for that day and age (about 350-400 pages when "average" was only 250-300 pages)

[Snail in Danger (Sid)]

I get almost all my books from the library (at least initially) ... so it doesn't matter how long or short the book is, only whether or not it's good. When the only thing I invest is time, I'm much more likely to find myself thinking, man, I wish this had been trimmed down a bit. (An example of this that I'm currently reading: All Men of Genius.)

[Sarah]

Ronald wrote: "This is what happened with me in Winter's Heart while I was reading the Wheel of Time series. Pretty much nothing happens in the entire novel, yet it's just as thick as the rest of the series. "

ROTFLMAO :) Thank you for that.

Man I'm telling you, this group is now my guaranteed source of chuckles and smiles. Talk about awesome sauce.

[Cecile]

If the book is for my book club, where we read a book a month, I do look at the page count. If it is for my own pleasure, I take the writer and storyline into account. I also look at the reviews from other readers.

I have read CRYPTONOMICON and it took me the better part of a year as I was reading other things at the same time. The other long one I remember reading that was also quite dense, was FOUCAULT'S PENDULUM, by Umberto Ecco. Not SF, but rather long.

I do a lot of reading for my job, so long SF book reading is rare.

[Bridget]

When I was little, I always wanted to read a long book because I always thought the longer a book was the cooler I'd be for reading it. I'm so glad I got over that.

Today, I do enjoy a nice long book, so that I can stay within the story for as long as possible. Then there are those times I just want to cuddle up with a nice fast, quick read. So, the only time I pay attention to page count is if I'm only in the mood for something short and quick.

[Bridget]

Trike wrote: "I think the bloat in EFP (Extruded Fantasy Product) is the legacy of Lord of the Rings. Because let's face it, those books contain hundreds of unnecessary pages. But since they're the benchmark, ma..."

I love that! I know there are books I've read that seem to just want to throw in the kitchen sink, because fantasy epic should mean long, right?

IMO, I think epic is more about how I react to the story. I think it can be epic in just a few pages if the story telling is done well.

[Sarah]

Bridget wrote: "IMO, I think epic is more about how I react to the story. I think it can be epic in just a few pages if the story telling is done well."

To me, "epic" means the scope or scale of the scene or story arc is huge, world-changing or long-lasting enough to be "timeless." Or it could mean the transformation which will occur to the character(s) is going to be life-changing, permanently (like someone major dies).

Of course, I am coming at the word and idea more as a author than as a reader because let's face it, we authors are pickier about words. Epic is a word that's been around a while (haha) and been morphed into meaning all kinds of things in the last 100 years, given the creation and morphing of the fantasy genre, itself.

Since I only write SciFi (not fantasy) and don't like to read fantasy either, "epic" has actually taken on a negative connotation for me in the last 10-20 years. Sad, because in the 1980s (when I was writing my first series) I actually thought my work was "action/adventure with an epic feel." Now I'd rather not describe my own work with that word because of what the LoTRs and Harry Potters have done to it. I'm not finding fault with those guys, just that they are so completely different than the mood/sense I create or the audience for whom I write (and I'm definitely not the audience who reads that stuff)

It's interesting how the growth and change of the genre can actually affect a single word--or how we perceive the word.

[Lara Amber]

To me epic means that we are going to be following more then one character (and possibly more then one generation), we will get an in-depth view of the world, the actions will affect the entire world/nation, the problem and resolution will not be simple, and we might find ourselves rooting for competing goals.

I think a lot of blurb writers think "epic" means "cool".

[Sarah]

Lara Amber wrote: "To me epic means that we are going to be following more then one character (and possibly more then one generation), we will get an in-depth view of the world, the actions will affect the entire world/nation, the problem and resolution will not be simple, and we might find ourselves rooting for competing goals."

Wow, what a great description of the "sense" of "epic-ness" in a story. So according to that description, my SciFi stories are epic action/adventures. I write series because an epic cannot be given proper depth, complexity and resolution in 100k words and a book should be 700k words long IMO. There are these funny little skills called "editing" which allow an author to break an epic down into book-sized pieces, like bite-sized snacks for readers. ^_^

It's hard to resist the temptation to write something with that huge, sweeping motion I identify as "epic." Sort of like a painter resisting using a 2" wide brush and only using their little 1/4" brush to stroke out fine little details, dauble by dauble. I can't imagine not adding in some of those huge, world-altering brushstrokes. At least, can't resist it in a series book, knowing I have another volume to expand on that generalized new development. Or not. Gotta have the story to drive another volume, which, for me, all comes down to the characters. I get my characters first, they bring their stories with them. The "epic-ness" is something I overlay as part of my authorial style, my writing preferences, my choices as the AuthorGod who chooses which of the fine 1/4" brushes the characters will be allowed to use to resolve their problems.

Lara summarized thusly:
"I think a lot of blurb writers think "epic" means "cool". "

To which I LOL and thank you for that wake-up laugh. I think you are completely correct that the term "epic" has taken on a California surfer slang meaning in the blurb-writing marketing community. It's so sad that they cannot sell without resorting to such mechanisms.

-sry

[Susan]

I don't usually use page count to determine whether or not to buy a book. I do look at page count when I go to read it if I know that I wouldn't have time to read a long book at that particular time though because of things I have to do.

[Dwarf]

I almost never see the page count, unless it's a book I don't want to read very much and I'm sensing I will dislike it. (like the rest of A Song of Ice and Fire), and now I almost only read in my e-reader so I don't mind carring a 1000+pages book. One of my favorite 10+ books are very short "The old man and the sea".

[Michael]

I prefer longer books myself. I think its just the feeling of being engrossed and totally absorbed in an entertaining massive yarn.
But smaller books 400 pagers or less are good to. I don't discriminate!

[Char]

I prefer longer books as well. But I love 'em all, so I don't really care!

[Timothy]

Hi,
I haven't been around much lately, a tad busy, finishing off my new triller [a follow up to 'the day the ravens died' and re editing my first book 'Ro']
Number af pages isn't a reliable guide, as 'main stream' paperbacks are leaving wider and wider margins these days, anything to make the book thicker, and seem better value.
'Ravens' is 122,000 words and 220 pages of very clear digital print on high quality paper, as a 'mass market' paperback it would be about 400 pages on coarse, yellowing paper. It would be about £1:50p less, but which do you consider best value? A book which lasts years and can be read over and over, or one which fades and falls to bits with use?
All the best Paul Rix [oldgeezer]
'The Day the Ravens Died' is also available on Kindle.

[Dale]

I started reading novels when they were running 150-180 pages. Then they went to 250-300. They've been increasing ever since and now it isn't unusual to see them run from 650-720 (though 450-500 is more ordinary).

I have noticed that they COULD still run down to 200 IF there were no sub-plots. I've never seen any proof, but I suspect that the publishing companies started demanding more and more pages as time went on which led to writers developing more and more sub-plots to meet that demand (since virtually all of the earlier (read shorter) stuff had no sub-plots.

[J.A.]

I don't think the size of books has ever affected my purchasing decision. I used to say I preferred long books, but the in last few years I find myself thinking more and more books could stand to be shorter.

[Philip]

I'm currently re-reading an old Ace "Double" (ho..."

I collect Ace SF Doubles -- they're one of my primary obsessions. When I was a kid my local library had a bunch of them and the two-for-one idea really hooked me. There are some important books and authors that made their first appearance as part of an Ace Double.

[Sarah]

@Cade, I have to agree that not many authors (myself 20 years ago included!!) are capable of writing a long and/or complex book really well. In fact, so few are able to keep the pages turning, that when one author succeeds, they're touted as some miraculous new Gifted One. I really had to laugh at your dissertation remarks, too. I went to college for the first time at age 28 and therefore, was older than most of the Ph.D. students teaching (or TA'ing) me. The old addage is so true: the older I get, the less I care and man did I not care for their long-windedness.

I still ramble though, so I'm not one to talk. I have to admit, however, that editing is the magic step to eliminate (or at least reduce) the rambling if not the subplots and/or complexity in the main plot line. I think a book that has too much backfill, infodumping "Say, Bob..." ing is one that needs editing and one I won't buy because of length. It's definitely taken me 20+ years to learn how to cull all that interesting but unecessary CRAP from my own work. Having to dredge through it in someone else's is not something I relish, let alone want to dole out hard-earned cash for the privilege.

Alternatively, I'd pay more for a book that has a complicated, intricately-woven plot and/or lots of characters with rich histories and depth and is WAY long. That kind of book I won't want to end :-) LMB's Vor series forex :-D I've read those books 5 or 6 times, entire series beginning to end in a week (plus or minus a few days, depending on real life). I never get tired of reading them and I ALWAYS find something new every single time I read one of her books. THAT is the kind of writing I aspire to emulate.

-sry