Fantasy Aficionados discussion
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When is fantasy not fantasy?
I see things being thrown and some Hughmor going on. Mike, we need a shield ASAP!!
Mike's only got a Gnome-in-all sheild.
Hugh'll never gnome the trouble I've seen... shields just won't cover it.
"but Hugh can't mix matter and anti-matter cold! The shields will never hold!"
Pun Shield on full...we'll "buckler" in place Lest that "bul-work" it's way through! Let everyone know by sending out a "chain-mail" message, we'll need to stay behind (are you read?) "de-fence" lest it get out that we've "ward" with eachother!!!!!
[Narrator]: When last we left or space opera and the Starship Simonize, Spok was trapped in a Vulcan Mind Meld with a Pacman Machine.[Kirk]: What do you think Bones?
[Dr. McKoy]: Well, Jim, I'm just a simple country doctor.
[Kirk]: Stuff it Bones. Mr. Scott?
[Mr. Scot] Pull the Plug CAPTAIN! PULL THE BLOODY PLUG!"
[Kirk] SPOK!....SPOOOooOKK!
Oh Oh, I think I made a wrong turn and ended up in a different thread. *Frantically punches GPS buttons*
Masha wrote: "Oh Oh, I think I made a wrong turn and ended up in a different thread. *Frantically punches GPS buttons*"
I'm sorry, I'll stop and go away now. Carol, you don't have to use your magic fairy dust banish me from the boards again.
Carol has fairy dust that makes people disappear??? Can I borrow some for when my kids annoy me?Anyhoooo, I probably broke all kinds of rules by having a combined sci-fi/fantasy bookshelf for myself. To me the divide between sci-fi and fantasy is much narrower than from either genre to realistic fiction. I know there's some feud going between the two, but I don't get it.
Neither do I really, but I think I may have the answer. We have Princess Leia marry Captain Picard in a marriage of convenience/state. We tie Star Wars and Star Trek together and end the debate about what's what there. If things stay contentious then we insist on a marriage between Conan and Honor Harrington.
^genius.Wait a minute--on reflection, that doesn't work. That's a marriage of sci-fi and sci-fi. To make your plan work, we need to marry sci-fi and fantasy. Say, Princess Leia to Kvothe or that Drizzit fellow.
A marriage between Conan and Honor Harrington would be funny.
Yah...but see that's the big controversy, is Star Wars science fiction or fantasy????? I always come down on the fantasy side, mysterious invisible force controlled by old man in a robe, a little green gnome and a young hero, who wields a magic sword...Okay maybe science fantasy. Leia and Drizzit would be fine but it mixes medias (movie/book [yes I know there are Star Wars books, but it's not it's home media])?????? Maybe Captain Kirk and Red Sonja???? Well, that's out to, Sonja was in a book first, before the really sad movie...
Maybe Frodo and River Tam???????
Sorry it all sounds so frantic, I'm watching Doctor Who, and he talks that way.
I'm pretty sure Star Wars is considered fantasy in space. Just like Firefly is a Western in space.Wash: Mind control? Isn't that, like, science fiction?
Zoe: We live in a space ship, dear.
Nope, Star Wars is sci-fi--advanced technologies, space travel, bold new worlds. "The Force" doesn't turn it into fantasy--it's a spiritual path.
Pfft.
It's fantasy.
Fantasy!
Seriously, the technology and science(hah) in Star Wars is barely even background set dressing and has nothing to do with the story at all.
You could completely remove the space ships and lasers and replace them with naval vessels and guns and the story wouldn't change at all.
Add in the 'magic' of the Force, and you've got yourself a fantasy. It's just set in space is all.
It's fantasy.
Fantasy!
Seriously, the technology and science(hah) in Star Wars is barely even background set dressing and has nothing to do with the story at all.
You could completely remove the space ships and lasers and replace them with naval vessels and guns and the story wouldn't change at all.
Add in the 'magic' of the Force, and you've got yourself a fantasy. It's just set in space is all.
This is as good an explanation as any. Which brings me to my original point of there being less difference between the two genres than people think.http://thetorchonline.com/latest/what...
Okay...we're back to Conan and Honor, they appear to be our only hope.
Agree with that link, Masha.
Except there is only the one Star Wars Trilogy, and it is indeed Fantasy.
Except there is only the one Star Wars Trilogy, and it is indeed Fantasy.
Ala, Ala. Too much carbonation in your typing.Setting is part of what makes the genre. Take Lies of Locke Lamora and put him in New York in 1920 and you could have almost the same story.
Carol wrote: "Setting is part of what makes the genre. Take Lies of Locke Lamora and put him in New York in 1920 and you could have almost the same story."
Then it would be an Urban Fantasy. But still a Fantasy :P
Then it would be an Urban Fantasy. But still a Fantasy :P
People....I think we're getting farther apart, not closer together.
Mike (the Paladin) wrote: "Okay...we're back to Conan and Honor, they appear to be our only hope."Together, they will slay the universe! Mwaa ha ha ha ha
Ala wrote: "Agree with that link, Masha.Except there is only the one Star Wars Trilogy, and it is indeed Fantasy."
A-men to that. And I'm holding on to my DVD version, thank you very much.
Um. Most fantasy books have in some kind of technology. Even if its just muskets and cannons, or the first use of steam baths or how catapults were engineered for sieges, it's still tech. Does that make them scifi too? I don't think so. Advanced technology and space ships and planets doesn't make something scifi. You could just as easily write a book strictly about the evolution of dinosaurs and neanderthal's communicating and it could be deemed scifi.
Ah yes, advanced technology is a component of sci-fi. Likewise spaceships and interstellar travel. Unless, of course, you are talking about the mission to the moon, which could be Non-fiction, or Fiction, or History, or Autobiography as well. Not that wiki is the end all of knowledge, but yes, technology is part of what makes some things science fiction. Possible/ plausible technology taken to a point beyond what is available now or used in a way no one has thought of/doesn't use now. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science_...
And the Force is a form of magic. Star Wars isn't Star Wars without the magic of the Force, the invisible power that has nothing to do with technology and is scientifically unexplainable and turns a man into superman. To me that makes Star Wars fantasy. You want to say Scifi/Fantasy, that's fine, but you simply cannot discount the Force.
Tech is as much a component of scifi as it is a component of any other fiction. Whether it is advanced or not is purely subjective to the time period the book deals with.
Tech to me in itself does not determine whether or not a book is Scifi. It's the overall presentation to me that makes that determination. Are books without advanced tech but deal strictly with psychic abilities not scifi?
Hence why indeed all fantasy/scifi is now lumped into Speculative Fiction.
I would agree that in the original trilogy the Force was more spiritu-magical in nature; however, when Lucas introduced the concept of midi-chlorians in the new trilogy he made it more sci-fi based and less spiritual. Also, the Force is described as "an energy field created by all living things" - this can, and obviously has been, interpreted in a more mystical way, but it could also be interpreted in a more quantum kind of way, which takes it back to science.
Personally, I consider it to be a space opera, and I'm ok with thinking of it as a science-fantasy, but to suggest it's pure fantasy without a sci-fi cross-over boggles my mind.
(And the fact that the tech and whatnot is, arguably, just in the background doesn't mean it's not sci-fi, either. Just means it's soft sci-fi.)
I find it unbelievably amusing that after four pages of answers, no two people 100% agree on this. We have many folks who say "this IS the way it is" or "I think this is the way it is"...yet it's taken us four pages and I think we're all giving different shades of answers to the original question.What does this say to me? It's bloody ambiguous even to the target audience. If people who obsess over books (average GR person) can't agree on what fits into these categories, I'm guessing there's no hope for the random Joe that wanders into a bookstore.
Short version...the genre's a mess of confusion. Not that that's good or bad. It just is.
I agree with Star Wars being characterized as fantasy. Advanced technology like space ships doesn't matter; it can still be fantasy. The space ships in Star Wars don't even act like space ships would act. Instead, they behave like planes in an atmosphere (which is consistent with Lucas' inspiration for choreographing battles). The whole thing is basically one big fantasy in space. It doesn't have any real elements that would make it science fiction. The technology elements are range from completely violative of known laws of science (which is a no-no in science fiction unless you provide a good, scientific rationale for it) to things that might or might not be consistent but are never really explained.
If you tell George Lucas that Star Wars is fantasy he would laugh in your face.
Mach wrote: "If you tell George Lucas that Star Wars is fantasy he would laugh in your face."If I met George Lucas I would spite in his face for the things he has done to Star Wars. I could care less about his opinion, especially since it seems he's only about making money.
If I got in Lucas' face, it would not be to discuss fantasy vs sci-fi. It would be to kick him in the shin for Jar-jar and the infamous "nooooooooooooooooo."Just sayin'.
Everyone can discuss all they want but the movies are classified as Sci Fi for a reason and that won't change no matter what anyone say.
Jim wrote: "If I got in Lucas' face, it would not be to discuss fantasy vs sci-fi. It would be to kick him in the shin for Jar-jar and the infamous "nooooooooooooooooo."Just sayin'."
^This!! lol
Mach wrote: "Everyone can discuss all they want but the movies are classified as Sci Fi for a reason and that won't change no matter what anyone say."
Pfffft. If I buy it, Lucas is my bitch.
Jim wrote: "If I got in Lucas' face, it would not be to discuss fantasy vs sci-fi. It would be to kick him in the shin for Jar-jar and the infamous "nooooooooooooooooo."Just sayin'."
Not to mention making Han Solo not shoot first. Supposedly he changed it in this new re-release, but the damage's been done. If he's that lacking in understanding of what he's created, I don't care what he would call it.
I don't know what Lucas would say about fantasy versus science fiction, but it doesn't matter. Lucas could call it a ham sandwich but that doesn't make it one. It is space fantasy regardless of what Lucas thinks about it.Masha - yes, he did change Greedo shoots first in the new version. Now, not only does Greedo shoot first but he actually shoots himself and Han desperately tries to employ CPR to save him :)
R. Scott wrote: "I agree with Star Wars being characterized as fantasy. Advanced technology like space ships doesn't matter; it can still be fantasy. The space ships in Star Wars don't even act like space ships wou..."To me, its Space Opera, which all has some elements of fantasy, especially Star Wars. The reason being is that he took Joesph Campbell's hero's journey and applied to in term of Science Fiction. That is the reason why it connects with more people than the usual science fiction story.
I think Space Opera makes sense. In many cases, Space Opera is, to me, a subset of Fantasy, though some of them are legitimately science fiction. At the end of the day, the boundaries get blurry, though Star Wars falls more firmly in the Fantasy end of Space Opera than some others do.As for Joseph Campbell - always interesting stuff. I like the functional approach he took to mythology.
R. Scott wrote: "I think Space Opera makes sense. In many cases, Space Opera is, to me, a subset of Fantasy, though some of them are legitimately science fiction. At the end of the day, the boundaries get blurry, t..."I find Joesph Campbell and fantasy is done too much, that is why I love Drizzt so much.
Well, most fantasy writers don't do the hero quest all that well, or it has been overdone. I think it is done less now than in the past. I really like works by Abercrombie, Erikson, Martin, Cook, Parker, etc.
R. Scott wrote: "I don't know what Lucas would say about fantasy versus science fiction, but it doesn't matter. Lucas could call it a ham sandwich but that doesn't make it one. It is space fantasy regardless of wha..."Ham sandwich! LOL!!
Lucasfilms new release: Star Wars IIV: Ham Sanwich
Luke: I'm starving!
Hans: What do you want me to do about it?? Ask Chewy.
Luke: Chewy, I need a ham sandwich!
Chewy: rraaarwwwrarrrrr!! raarwer?!
Yoda: A ham sandwich, you may want.
Darth Vader: Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!
Heh. Nice one MrsJoseph. In the new Star Wars, as envisioned by Lucas, I'm afraid it would be vegetarian sandwiches all around, or at the very least ham from a pig that died of natural causes or committed suicide :)
Jim wrote: "I find it unbelievably amusing that after four pages of answers, no two people 100% agree on this. We have many folks who say "this IS the way it is" or "I think this is the way it is"...yet it's t..."couldn't agree more. lol.
MrsJoseph wrote: "R. Scott wrote: "I don't know what Lucas would say about fantasy versus science fiction, but it doesn't matter. Lucas could call it a ham sandwich but that doesn't make it one. It is space fantasy ..."lmao
Terry wrote: "Jim wrote: "I find it unbelievably amusing that after four pages of answers, no two people 100% agree on this. We have many folks who say "this IS the way it is" or "I think this is the way it is"...."This debate has no answer. LOL
I think this because, imo, both sides are correct. It is both sci fi and fantasy because the story carries elements of both. :)
I liked the space opera explanation by Kevin, too.
Fantasy Aficionados
Books mentioned in this topic
Magic Lost, Trouble Found (other topics)The Drawing of the Dark (other topics)
The Host (other topics)
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*runs in the general direction MrsJoseph went*