Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince
discussion
"Please, Severus."
maybe Dumbledore could see the obstinate resolve and disgust on Severus' face that he felt Snape wouldn't kill him..because either he didn't want anyone to think him to have died because of a curse (as he only had only (around) 1 year more to live) or that he wanted Snape to fulfill Narcissa's unbreakable vow,thereby protecting Draco's "innocence"I think Severus Snape is a wronged and misunderstood character throughout the story.
Richie wrote: "maybe Dumbledore could see the obstinate resolve and disgust on Severus' face that he felt Snape wouldn't kill him..because either he didn't want anyone to think him to have died because of a cur..."Severus Snape is definitely not a wronged and misunderstood character. He was rightfully hated, he still is.
i agree with Hina. Snape may have ended up doing a good thing but that doesn't make up for him being a dick to everyone as much as possible.
i don't think he was 'good'. i think he did a good thing.
Yes, Snape did a good thing, but do you really think he did that good thing for the Wizarding World or for Dumbledore or even for Harry? Snape did it, out of regret and remorse for Lily Potter, who's death was partly his own fault. I never did say that Snape was a bad character, he's just a horrible, horrible person.
Hina wrote: "Yes, Snape did a good thing, but do you really think he did that good thing for the Wizarding World or for Dumbledore or even for Harry? Snape did it, out of regret and remorse for Lily Potter, who..."Well, it's the actions that count, so judging by actions he was a good person in the end, even though he stayed a jerk on a personal level. Plenty of great heroes in history were jerks- so what.
That's not to say some things aren't black and white, especially in Harry Potter world. Either someone is with the Death Eaters or he isn't. Everyone was forced to choose, and Snape chose to redeem himself so he gets credit for that. Most Death Eaters remained unrepentant even in jail.
Masha wrote: "Hina wrote: "Yes, Snape did a good thing, but do you really think he did that good thing for the Wizarding World or for Dumbledore or even for Harry? Snape did it, out of regret and remorse for Lil..."That may be true, but I personally don't think that having a grudge against someone who's dead, or mocking and hating children just because of a stupid grudge makes someone a good person. In my opinion just because of what Snape did towards the end makes everyone forget about everything he did before.
If Lily didn't die Snape would have continued to become a Death Eater and help destroy the peace of the Wizarding World. He didn't care if Voldemort rose to power, which makes him anything but a good person.
Emtee wrote: "It's amazing to me that you know that "[If] Lily didn't die Snape would have continued to become a Death Eater and help destroy...". I think your biggest crime is never thinking outside your own ..."
Well, that is the only logical explanation to fit his personality, it would be amazing if Snape had a sudden personality change from Death Eater to Non Death Eater.
Yes, Snape is a human being and his humanly characteristics define what kind of person he is. Yes, he helped save the Wizarding World, but he also helped create the whole problem whilst ripping two families apart. I understand what you're trying to say and it might have helped if Snape wasn't a complete arse of a teacher, and even if he did all those things towards the end, I see him as a bad person because of what he did up till the point that he died.
I guess we can't judge some of the Death Eaters harshly, but Death Eaters like Bellatrix, Fenrir Greyback etc were delusional, crazy and pureblood fanatics in which we can clearly tell that they would not leave the side of their leader. I think the books present enough information on Snape for me to judge him, my opinion may be unpopular, but that's what I believe.
Urgh, I had to retype this all after I just left the page for no reason...I find that Snape's actions prior to Lily's murder somewhat forgivable, in the same way that I can accept Draco's actions. Neither of them knew any better, so what else would they ever do?
Snape, however, wasn't left believing that it was right, which is why I don't think he was a good man. Lily died, and he was upset. But he never seemed to move on from that. There was no point when he simply did good for the sake of doing good.
I'm not going to be cruel enough to say that he did it to stop his own guilt, and I do believe that he loved Lily. It's just that I also think he was terribly selfish about that love.
Remember Dumbledore has done some not-so-great things in his youth, so he was also partly motivated by redemption. Doesn't take away from all the good he did. Motives matter less than deeds.As to Snape being "selfish," he not only was risking his life being undercover, he also had to live all this time playing the part. No one got to know him except Dumbledore, and he could not have any friends or get sympathy from the good guys. That was a huge sacrifice in its own right. If Harry didn't get his memories, no one would even know he was on the side of good. That's why Harry said Snape was "the bravest man" he's ever known. He was willing to die with everyone thinking him still a Death Eater and a despicable human being. That takes a LOT of humility and dedication to a cause, no matter why he agreed to do it from the beginning.
I think that people's opinions of Snape are based largely on whether or not he is a "good" person. This is kind of a pointless debate because no character or human being is purely good or purely evil (Sirius mentions this in OotP).Snape's circumstances didn't exactly give him the best chances in life--growing up in an abusive home, then finally escaping to Hogwarts only to be bullied there as well. When he joined the Death Eaters, I don't believe that he did so out of a desire to hurt Muggles or Muggle-borns. He had a fascination with the Dark Arts (as many people do with the forbidden or taboo) and an overwhelming desire to be accepted. People like Lucius Malfoy made him feel important. They valued his skills and didn't reject him because he had poor hygiene and stunted social skills.
As a Slytherin, he did put his own well-being first (at least when he was young), and he was willing to let others suffer if it meant that he was being valued and included. His ability to love someone enough that that love overpowered his own desires was, as Dumbledore knew, his most redeeming quality.
Of course his treatment of Harry was inappropriate--no one can argue against that. However, consider that every day he had to see the physical proof that Lily chose James over him. Seeing her eyes in his face couldn't have been easy. And Harry did have a penchant for getting into trouble, which Snape obviously saw as intentional. Despite this, Snape did save him repeatedly, often from Harry's own carelessness (or admittedly blundering heroics, which Slytherins see as carelessness in disguise), or from Dumbledore's questionable habit of letting Harry test his own capabilities. Snape put himself in considerable danger to do so, as well as to further the Order's cause.
Snape isn't a "nice" man, or even a completely "good" man. But his actions (to me) speak more loudly than his unpleasant attitude. If you read his scenes very closely, you'll often find that he had more reasons than bitterness to act angry or unfair (often fear--of failing to protect Harry; of failing to conceal his own inadequacies; of revealing his one 'weakness,' his capacity for love). Sure, sometimes he's just a petty dictator, but many people act unfairly based on unreasonable grudges, usually because they want to hide the pain they feel at past humiliation. The bullied often become bullies to compensate for their former lack of dignity.
I could go on for ages about this character (by far my favorite), but I'll end by saying that Snape was a brilliant, sarcastically amusing, damaged person locked into a life of servitude and repentance because of a horrible choice that he made when he was a teenager. He's bitter, petty, and indescribably sad. He's an anti-hero, and in my opinion he's among the most complex characters in the series.
Lily wrote: "Urgh, I had to retype this all after I just left the page for no reason...I find that Snape's actions prior to Lily's murder somewhat forgivable, in the same way that I can accept Draco's actio..."
Hmmm...I never thought about it that way.
Laura wrote: "i agree with Hina. Snape may have ended up doing a good thing but that doesn't make up for him being a dick to everyone as much as possible."Since when is being "Nice" a way to measure the evil in a human heart. Some of the nicest people I have ever met were rotten to the core. Our actions show who we are, not venal pleasantries meant to cater to weak shallow people. The most centered people I have know were always consumed with doing right and not "seeming" that way. Yes, being forthright can edge into curtness, but there is not always time to explain everything to everyone. It is childish to judge people by how "Nice" they are.
Emtee wrote: "Just out of curiosity... which two families did he rip in two? Obviously, one of those families are the Potters. The second is... who, exactly?As for him being a terrible person while he was a te..."
The Longbottoms.
I think you're misunderstanding what I'm saying. I know that Snape risked his life and did all those things, but that still doesn't make him a good man. It wasn't just because of some of the students having Death Eater parents, many of them didn't, but he didn't have a right to make Neville's life hell, just because he could've been the Chosen One or to hate Harry to such an extent that he wanted to expel him. Granted that he did work undercover and was surrounded by Death Eater prodigies, he didn't have to be that extreme.
Yes he was a good soldier, but not a good person.
He did good, but not without making people miserable in the first place. There was a reason why people disliked him so much. Snape didn't torture the Longbottoms, but it was he who told Voldemort about the prophecy which involved either Neville or Harry.
I think Snape was Rowling's way to say that not every good person has to be good. We can't judge person by WHAT they did, but we need to know WHY they did it. Everyone (good or bad one) has their own reason to be "bad".
Laura wrote: "i agree with Hina. Snape may have ended up doing a good thing but that doesn't make up for him being a dick to everyone as much as possible."I think Snape was only ever playing his part well as planned ... granted he may have enjoyed it more than he should have.
I don't see Snape as a good guy. The only reason he helped Harry was because he loved his mother. I don't that he really cared for Harry at all. He would have never helped him if he hadn't loved his mother. He redeems himself in the end only because of her.
i thought he was bad alll the way through the series and i remember hating him. when j k rowling put him in as good i iimmediately started to like him, especially after the bit where you found out he loved lily. i dont think j k rowling planned as putiing him in as good it was more of a spur of the moment type of thing! i now have a soft spot for snape that i know he loved lily and cried at both the book and film at this point.
But, I mean, Snape wasn't all good.His hair was still a gross slimeball, and he was always mean to Harry and everyone else. He always favored the Slytherins and hated everyone else...But, he did protect Harry, and he did do good things, because he had been in love with Harry's mom. And he always had been on the good side.
Starburst wrote: "But, I mean, Snape wasn't all good.His hair was still a gross slimeball, and he was always mean to Harry and everyone else. He always favored the Slytherins and hated everyone else...But, he did p..."
I don't disagree, but what does bad hair have to do with anything? He was ugly looking, which led to him being bullied and becoming attracted to Death Eaters in the first place, but it's irrelevant to him being good or bad. The Malfoy family was always neat and attractive- so what?
Nothing, it is just something that people hated on Snape for... it doesn't make him good or bad.
Severus Snape...I'm going to say he was on the good side. His heart was in the right place most of the time, and the death of Dumbledore was planned.He went through alot as a child, and I was very sympathetic when he died. I didnt always know he was good, but I still liked him as a character, and I did think he wasn't quite as bad as he let on.
He was a great character, even before it was discovered he wasn't that evil.
J.K Rowling portrayed him so well, and always left you on edge, wanting to find out if he was good or not. Snape is an essential part of the book, and I like him, good or bad.
I couldn't believe Dumbledore was pleading Snape "not" to kill him... I mean, cmon! How could my fav character get down to be so lame...? Yes, this was my first reactions at these words...
I actually thought it could be both but that was later when I started to think about all the other books, but in the first minute I was like: OMG! YOU BASTARD! and the suspense was killing me!Anyway although I thought he could be evil I still love him, I liked him since the second book, that was so many years ago I mean I was 11 now I´m 25. Now when I think about it I think I would like him to be a bad guy cause the only thing I hate about this character is how he never move on, I mean that´s kind of lame; but probably is just because I´m not that into romance, and is just my opinion.
It was funny because my friend finished the book before me, so when I was ranting about Snape, she kept on laughing going;"You'll see"
Me: Snape sucks! I can't BELIEVE he would do that to Dumbledore.
Friend: "You won't hate him in the end."
Me: "Why?"
Friend" You'll see"
ERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR but now I finished and I'm not so insane.
I agree with Andre's view!! Dumbledore and Snape had it all planned but when the moment came, Snape was hestitating.. That is why, Dumbledore was pleading!
It was in the memories. Ddore wanted him to. :(
I always hated Snape.... this made me hate him even more!
Ally wrote: "I always hated Snape.... this made me hate him even more!"I'm not a Snape fan, but...why?
Emma wrote: "@Love~Like~Woe: I just gave you my reasons for thinking Snape was the "bad guy." So you always thought Snape was pure at heart? See, a lot of people say the same thing, and I just don't get it. H..."Interesting question... If Snape would never have had Lily enter his life, his schooling would have been drastically different. I believe that Snape got into the group of bullies (future death-eaters) purely for the sake of rebel. One thing, he wanted to get into a rival group of the Marauders. Rival and equally powerful. A group that would give him the power to avenge. It is debatable whether he would have joined this group and eventually become a death eater if it wouldn't have been for Lily... I think not. He would probably have worked as a Prof evetually.
Monica wrote: "When Dumbledore says "Severus, please" I thought in his mind Dumbledore would rather his death be on Snape's head then on Draco's, who I believe was only 17?? Snape at this point had already killed..."Interesting.
I'm not one of those fake guys who loves Snape after they find out that he was a good guy. I truly adored him from the beginning of the book. I just can't explain why, but can I just tell that I had this feeling about him? That there was more that meets the eyes (do you say that like this? Sometimes English can be difficult :p) You could tell from the beginning in the book that Snape would play a big role. And I don't know, I just like him..
I've had this conversation with lots of friends, and I think it was because *Spoilers from book 6 and 7*
When Snape killed Dumbledore, D. had asked him to do it. Plus, he was in such terrible pain and anguish, he wanted to die more quickly than being eaten inside out from his hand. Also, I think that D. was saying "please," because he thought that Snape wouldn't want to do it, and he wouldn't do it, which would completely destroy their planning. Also, if he stuttered or didn't do it, the Death Eaters would think he was unfaithful, etc.
*BUT* I also think that Dumbledore might have been sort of role-playing. If he didn't say, "Snape, stop, don't do it," then it would be a red flag that he wanted him to kill him....
I had a feeling from the beginning that Snape was good but I still had that element of doubt. However, when it came to that scene I was about 99% positive that he was good. There was something about that look that Dumbledore gave him and what he said. Also how Dumbledore spoke to Draco like he wasn't a bit surprised to see him there and trying to kill him...How would he have known otherwise?! It is the one scene from the entire series that I went over again and again in my head trying to work out. It was fantastically written and well thought out so it had us all confused and questioning. Exactly what any good writer wants.http://divaliciouzbookreviews.blogspo...
I felt nothing while I was reading that part. Nothing. I wasn't that upset over Dumbledore's death as much as I was over some of the other characters (i.e. Sirius.) Rowling did a pretty good job of convincing us that Snape was a bad guy in that part, especially after we learned that he was partially responsible for Harry's parents' murder.
Snape is NOT INNOCENT. He led Dumbledore to believe that he had changed and that he was not in league with Voldemort even though he was. He had no respect and gratefulness towards Dumbledore for accepting him. Furthermore, Snape KILLED Dumbledore without even PAUSING to think about what he was doing. I'd say Snape is even worse than Voldemort for killing Dumbledore and treating Harry in a hostile manner throughout his years at Hogwarts. Bottom line, I never have and never will trust Snape. I am truly hate every square inch of the filthy scum named Snape!
Simplyminali wrote: "Snape is NOT INNOCENT. He led Dumbledore to believe that he had changed and that he was not in league with Voldemort even though he was. He had no respect and gratefulness towards Dumbledore for ac..."Have you read Deathly Hallows?
Sometimes I wonder too, Lily, what book people are reading.
I agree with you, Tehreem.I liked Snape since I first started reading the books. However, I didn't see him as a good guy. I simply fell in love with the character, he fascinated me. I knew he was going to be pretty important throughout the whole story but I can't say I knew he was on the good side.
Snape's memories shouldn't be treated like gospel. If we had access to James Potter's memories, we would have a much more balanced picture. The point wasn't to show that James was a horrible person, but to show that, just like everyone else, he wasn't a saint. Snape made his choices, and he made some bad ones. He did break away from Voldemort, but it would have been more to his credit if he hadn't joined with him in the first place.
Mel wrote: "I'm not one of those fake guys who loves Snape after they find out that he was a good guy. I truly adored him from the beginning of the book. I just can't explain why, but can I just tell that I ha..."You were really close. The phrase is "more than meets the eye".
Lily wrote: "Simplyminali wrote: "Snape is NOT INNOCENT. He led Dumbledore to believe that he had changed and that he was not in league with Voldemort even though he was. He had no respect and gratefulness towa..."Yeah I don't think they'd be saying that if they'd read Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows.
I was very sad when Dumbledore died, but yet I accepted it because I had figured at the beginning of the series that a character as old and wise as Dumbledore would probably have to die later on in the series. Still, the scene broke my heart as I'm sure it did many.
It was funny because my friend finihed the books before me. One day I was complaining about how Severus completely betrayed Dumbledore but my friend kept saying, "just wait". I never liked Snape. Still don't.
I must be stupid, but when I first read the book I hated Snape and didn't think for a moment that he could be a good person xD
Isabel wrote: "I must be stupid, but when I first read the book I hated Snape and didn't think for a moment that he could be a good person xD"
You're not stupid. That's how I felt.
You're not stupid. That's how I felt.
That's how everyone felt. (Or, almost everyone.)
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About your first paragraph, yeah I think that most fans completely fell for it and just assumed that that was what was happening at the time.