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The Death of Ivan Ilych
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Death of Ivan Ilyich, The: Week 1 - Ch 1-3
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I have to say that though, obviously I knew the story was going to involve the death of Ivan Illyich I was taken by surprise when it was announced right off the bat in the very first chapter. Before we are even introduced to his character we learn of his death. I was not quite expecting that. Even though I knew he was going to end up dead you do not expect the main character of a book to be killed off before the story even really begins. It made me think of this new study I heard upon the news which stated that readers who already knew the ending of a book enjoyed their reading experience more than those who did not already know how the story would end, because instead of just enjoying what happiness within the story they are worried about how it will turn out.
In reading "The Death of Ivan Ilyich" a part of me could not help but to think it was as if Tolstoy wanted to get the ending over with at the beginning to free the reader to focus upon what was truly significant in the book, rather than spend their time being burdened with the worry and wonder of what Ivan's fate will ultimately be.
In this way it also seems to me that in spite of the title of the book which suggests his death will be the focal point of the story, I reel as if this story really is truly more about his life than his death. By revealing his death at the start of the story, it does free the reader to focus more on his life instead of spending the time worrying about if in fact he will live or die.
I do think that it is interesting how this story diverges away from what might be a more traditional or expected structure for a story, by starting out with the life of the "hero" and building up to reveal their death at the end.
But instead I did enjoy the way in which we are presented first with his death and from that his life begins to unravel.
It also does make his life I think in fact more important than his death because it is life that Tolstoy truly wants us to consider, examine and think about it.
It is not what becomes of him that is of important, but who he was. As the 2nd chapter states.
Printed out and read the online copy of the first two chapters last night. Found myself viewing this as quite different than other things of Tolstoy that I have read, like AK and W&P, which made me wonder where it fit in his oeuvre. For others who may be curious:Tolstoy (1828 – 1910) 82 yrs
Childhood (1852)
Boyhood (1854)
Youth (1856)
Family Happiness (1859)
The Cossacks (1863)
War and Peace (1869)
Anna Karenina (1877)
The Death of Ivan Ilyich (1886)
The Kreutzer Sonata (1889)
Resurrection (1899)
The Forged Coupon (1911).(posthumous)
Hadji Murat (1912)
So this one comes after his two greatest novels. If he wrote DII in the years immediately before it was published, Tolstoy would have been in his late fifties. (He has a large oeuvre of other writings. Some of those in the interlude after AK may have heavily influenced DII.) I have never read a biography of Tolstoy, although we know bits by legend and his writings; and I did see the movie "The Last Station."
Mod
"Such a man was Ilya Yefimovich Golovin, Privy Councillor, superflous member of various superflous institutions."
The first three chapters made me think Tolstoy is saying death is inevitable no matter what life you live; with most of living lives that are superflous. We don't focus on the important. Instead we're like Ivan, making our lives comfortable and acquiring either position, power, items, or any combination of those things.
It was also interesting to me to see the widow so grief stricken when you read in the next chapters how she was such a nag to him and seemed to only want position and things. Tolstoy seems to be commenting about the disfunctionality of society in general when speaking about Ivan's marriage and job.
Since I had read this before (but many years ago) I wasn't surprised how the story opens with his death. I don't remember being surprised about it on my first read either, but maybe that's a trick of memory. I tend to read without any preconceived notions. And contrary to the study mentioned above, I don't worry about where the story is headed, I just enjoy the ride.
The thing that struck me about the beginning of this book was the reaction of Ivan's associates, friends, and relatives to the news of his death. They immediately fell to thinking about how they might benefit from his death, and then went on to think wholly their own thoughts, forgetting altogether the dearly deceased. Does Ivan deserve this? Perhaps we shall see.
Laurele wrote: "The thing that struck me about the beginning of this book was the reaction of Ivan's associates, friends, and relatives to the news of his death. They immediately fell to thinking about how they mi..."I found the first chapter and the whole funeral scene to be quite an interesting one. And I wondered as reading it if the reactions of his friends and colleagues to his death is meant to be a reflection upon Ivan himself and the life he lead, who he was as a person, or if if it is a statement about society.
Though after receiving the news of his death, it is stated that everyone liked him, the first thought which immediately jumped into every one's head was who each of them wanted to earn the promotion.
I also was struck by this quote:
...the very fact of the death of an intimate acquaintance excited in every one who heard of it, as such a fact always does, a feeling of relief that "it is he that is dead and not I"
I also thought that there was a realism in the way in which the funeral scene is viewed, and the reflection of every one's thought upon it. I think that Tolstoy does capture the truth of how a lot of people genuinely do think and reach, but feel guilty about admitting.
The more intimate acquaintances, the so-called friends of Ivan Ilyitch, could not help thinking too that now they had the exceedingly tiresome social duties to perform of going to the funeral service and paying the widow a visit of condolence
I think this is a very accurate reflection of the way many people geneuinly do feel about having to attend funerals
In retrospect I think there is a lot of ironical humur in the funeral scene, another part I particuarly liked was
...in fact there was no ground for supposing this incident could prevent us from spending the evening agreeably
I quite enjoyed the whole character of Shavat and I think there is a certain element of life goes on in this statement, and it is another juxtaposition between life and death.
When we first begin to be introduced to the life of Ivan we learn that he was a lively individual who enjoyed amusement, and entertainment, and seemed to have a great enjoyment of his life, though we see how his marriage starts to diminish this and this is contrasted sharply with that sober opening of his death, and the funeral, and learning of the fact that he had fallen to an illness. I think there is some irony in this as well.
I really enjoyed the first chapter too. Tolstoy is so good at capturing different aspects of society and his description of a funeral creating uncertainty is very enlightening. I didn't care for the widow Praskovya. Her discussion of finances at her husbands funeral struck me as unfeeling and according to Peter she is greedy too.I thought putting the funeral before we actually become acquainted with Ivan Ilych just made his life aspirations and successes seem pathetic. He spent his whole life trying "to lead a decorous life approved of by society" which I just don't agree with.
I am new to Tolstoy and not all that familiar with his writing style. That being said, I find his view of Ivan Ilych's life as being a bit. . .jaded or cynical. I only read the first three chapters (didn't want the later chapters to color this first discussion), but it felt to me that by starting with his death, Tolstoy is suggesting that dying was Ivan Ilych's greatest accomplishment in life. This view may be changed by later chapters. . .but I don't think so.
It seemed to me that Tolstoy goes to great lengths in the first three chapters to relay the feeling of isolation from the world. Ivan Ilych lived on the surface, copying those he thought worth emulating, but not really creating his own identity. He has a family. . .but he is only superficially involved with it and tries to spend as much time as possible at work. At work, he holds the status quo. He does not create new policy, he is not the one with the most convictions or the best reputation with the law. His coworkers are merely accquaintances, not close confidants.
Tolstoy does not mention a single person in the first three chapters as being truly close to Ivan Ilych-a confidant, lover, or sibling with a close bond. He is alone in the world, only he doesn't seem to know it.
The passage that most caught my eye goes back to the idea that Ivan Ilych's death is his most significant accomplishment. As Peter Ivanovich is finally able to leave the funeral, he mentions to Gerasim, the butler's assistant that it was all a 'sad affair.' To which Gerasim replied:
It's God's will. We shall all come to it some day.
I think this passage will be key to unlocking the rest of Ivan Ilych's life.
Kris wrote: "I am new to Tolstoy and not all that familiar with his writing style. That being said, I find his view of Ivan Ilych's life as being a bit. . .jaded or cynical. I only read the first three chap..."
This is only my third time reading Tolstoy, and I must admit that compared to other authors I have read, he is not my favorite among the Russians, that is not to say he is not good, and worth reading.
Cynicism tends to be a common theme within a lot of Russian literature, I cannot help but to wonder if living in such a sever physical environment does not play some role in shaping the Russian mind set.
I think that is an interesting thought, the possibility that his death is meant to be presented as his greatest achievement in life, which would be another touch of irony that is present in the story.
The funeral scene does paint a rather pitiful portrait in considering everyone's reactions. For even the man whom is stated to be his dearest friend, Peter seems not to be so deeply moved by Ivan's death. There is no one there who does seem to truly genuinely grieve for the loss of his life.
It is interesting that the picture we are presented of his children are of these somber, yet aloof figures who are just standing in the background.
We are told that he was "liked by everyone" and yet it seems in the end he will truly be missed by very few, if anyone, or if missed it will be for more self-serving reasons, such as the widow worried about the finances. So it seems that his relationships were just as shallow as the way in which he set about to live his life.
Mod
That being said, I find his view of Ivan Ilych's life as being a bit. . .jaded or cynical. I only read the fir..."
Interesting. I wasn't struck by the cynicism, but I have read it before so maybe I just glossed over it. I think because Tolstoy had such strong political views about his society, he is using the story to show us this in the story. I took the cynicism as a necessary survival technique for that society. Also, since I don't know much about Russian culture, I thought it could be cultural.
Cynicism is not what comes to mind when I think of Tolstoy or Russian literature in general. I think more of a sense of resignation, which can be defined as "Unresisting acceptance of something as inescapable; submission." In some ways, that is the impression I received of how Ivan saw his life. He found ways for his life to be pleasant when possible, and so far there is very little impression he wanted more.I first became familiar with this story through the film Ivansxtc which retells the story by placing it in contemporary Hollywood and making Ivan an agent. While that sounds rather terrible based only on that description, I found it to be a very moving film. It also demonstrated how people react to death in a way that, personally, I found more real than most depictions. I have no problem with the way Tolstoy described people as reacting in part by thinking of the impact the death could have on them. In a lot of ways that is the sort of thing that comes to mind when you hear of a death that can impact you, particularly if you aren't close to the deceased. As for the wife, well, there was possibly a lack of tact in discussing the financial situation immediately before the funeral, but how is that so very different from finding the will and having the reading soon afterwards?
Denae wrote: "Cynicism is not what comes to mind when I think of Tolstoy or Russian literature in general. I think more of a sense of resignation, which can be defined as "Unresisting acceptance of something as ..."I agree with there being a sense of resignation in Tolstoy but more than that is being portrayed. Such as when Ivan Ilych is courting Praskovya: "Ivan Ilych might have aspired to a more brilliant match, but even this was good." (ch. 2) it is the "might have" that stands out to me. It's resignation but also something more I can't find a way to articulate.
As to the wife, she wasn't just dealing with what is necessary, she was going beyond. "She knew how much could be got out of the government in consequence of her husband's death, but wanted to find out whether she could not possibly extract something more." She only talks to Peter Ivanovich for that purpose because as soon as he makes it clear he has no idea how to get more, she sighed and tried to get rid of him. But I already thought she was tacky for allowing her butler to discuss the price of the plot in front of people outside her family. It felt like Tolstoy wanted our first impressions of her to hint at their marital relationship.
Denae wrote: "It also demonstrated how people react to death in a way that, personally, I found more real than most depictions. I have no problem with the way Tolstoy described people as reacting in part by thinking of the impact the death could have on them. .."I agree that Tolstoy does portray a rather realistic and accurate portrayal of the way in which people do respond and react in this sort of situation, and it is natural for one to not help but to think of the direct personal affect upon themselves that such an event might have.
In regards to the widow upon reading it my first reaction was thinking that it was insensitive and seemingly heartless of her to be thinking first and foremost of the financial issue at the death of her husband. But in retrospect, while it may have been in poor taste to have such a discussion upon the very day of the funeral, it is a legitimate concern that one must deal with and think about upon dealing with the death of a loved on. Part of making funeral arrangements does by necessity mean also having to consider the cost of such a thing and the economic side of a situation is a part of having to deal with some one's death.
I continue to wonder where Tolstoy is coming from as he wrote this story. He has recently finished Anna Karenina, which certainly has forced him to think about death. He is in his late fifties, a time when many first begin to seriously probe the reality of their own future and inevitable death. He has been married to Sonja long enough for some of the difficulties of marriage to be personally apparent to him. To me, so far DII is reading more like an essay exploring death and the life that precedes it than a novel about some character that Tolstoy develops the way he did those in AK and W&P.
Silver wrote: In regards to the widow upon reading it my first reaction was thinking that it was insensitive and seemingly heartless of her to be thinking first and foremost of the financial issue at the death of her husband..."I found where Tolstoy placed the coversations about money during the funeral telling of Praskovya's character. While not in a room full of people, the butler does talks to her about the cost of the plot in front of Peter, just as she is asking him for more money. Usually the cost of such things would not be discussed is pleasant society. It seemed staged to me, like she hoped Peter would be more inclined to help her get more from the government if he knew how much such things were costing the family.
Not knowing how much above their means the family was living, it is hard to know how badly Praskovya needed the money. That has become a common topic among tv shows and some books--the family discovering after the death of the bread winner that they have no way to support even a fraction of the lifestyle they had before. Maybe she's not the golddigger the passage seems to make her?
Kris wrote: "Silver wrote: In regards to the widow upon reading it my first reaction was thinking that it was insensitive and seemingly heartless of her to be thinking first and foremost of the financial issue ..."She may have had some self-serving interests, and she may have been a bit tactless, but I do not think I would call her a complete gold digger, though this opening introduction to her does make one question the nature of their marriage, and it does not make her appear as if she truly misses her husband for his own sake but is more worried about their money.
But though I do not know much about the specifics of Russian society and culture, this story was written in a period of time were generally speaking women were expected to marry for economic security and so in a way the society has forced all women to be "gold diggers" given there was so little means, outside of having a husband whom could support them, for women to earn the means for themselves.
It would be very difficult to be widow at this period of time in terms of supporting herself and her children.
Good discussion. Thanks, all. I am not finding that I have much to say about this particular work of Tolstoy's. For me, it certainly does not have the appeal of richly developed, life-filled characters I love so much about AK and W&P. But, for me, it does seem to closely observe certain slices of life that one can recognize.
Great discussion, thx!Melissa wrote: "I agree with there being a sense of resignation in Tolstoy but more than that is being portrayed. Such as when Ivan Ilych is courting Praskovya: "Ivan Ilych might have aspired to a more brilliant match, but even this was good." (ch. 2) it is the "might have" that stands out to me. It's resignation but also something more I can't find a way to articulate."
I do not know if the two of us think the same, but there is a a German saying that goes like this: "A horse does not jump higher than it has to." IMHO Ivan lacks passion and ambition. He is rather superficial, even opportunistic. He does not seem to be aware of his inner life, dreams and wishes. But why should he even care for them? For him, there is no need to be introspective as long as he earns just enough money and has not too often disputes with his wife…
From our first segment, I appreciate the first chapter the most. This is the only Tolstoy work I know so far, but even in a novella he is a master of description, turning the pages into life. This is pure cinema in your head!
Remi wrote: "This is the only Tolstoy work I know so far, but even in a novella he is a master of description, turning the pages into life...."What an apt assessment: "turning the pages into life"! If you think he does that well here, I hope you will tackle his AK and at least part of W&P one day.
Part of the fascination of W&P to me was realizing how many times he rewrote certain of the characters and the plot. Knowing that, I can't help wondering if he made similar changes in DII as he wrote or, since it is shorter, did it come together as an entity with less major re-structuring.
I teach this book every semester and it is one of my very favorites for its symbolism and its message. It never ceases to amaze me how uncomfortable people are when discussing the book because it asks us to confront immediately someone who is dead and reactions of the people to the death of their friend, husband, father, colleague. Death remains one of those taboos subjects even in this time and we all can relate to the uncomfortable feeling that one gets when they must offer condolences to a family. Students also get upset at the seemingly greedy wife of Ivan and her worry over money! But....women at the time had no resources, could not work and the death of a husband would surely impact the family. As an aside, I wrote an epilogue to this story entitled" the Revenge of Ivan Iliych for my Masters Fiction class. I loved taking the characters and making them reveal their hidden motivations!
If you get the chance read Tolstoy's "Kruetzner Sonata" the man was a genius!
Aley wrote: "I teach this book every semester and it is one of my very favorites for its symbolism and its message. It never ceases to amaze me how uncomfortable people are when discussing the book because it a..."Aley -- thank you for joining this discussion! Look forward to your further comments. Yes, certainly I am one of those finding it uncomfortable to discuss the book. Your comment hit home. If you learned techniques in the classroom to facilitate, do hope you'll share them here, if they are transferable.
Deborah wrote: "It was also interesting to me to see the widow so grief stricken when you read in the next chapters how she was such a nag to him and seemed to only want position and things."Deborah- I'm not sure that I agree with this. They get along at first, but it is when she is first pregnant that things begin to unravel. It seems that he isn't happy when he is no longer the center of her existence and his needs aren't put first. Most women get a bit "unpleasant" in the later stages of pregnancy. ;) It's then that he avoids her by staying at work all the time. Then it is like a circle. She's annoyed that he isn't around, so he stays away, which makes her more annoyed, so he works longer, etc. He doesn't seem to want to be a part of the family, at least the everyday part of family, or deal with the everyday practicalities of family life.
As for her conduct at the funeral, she doesn't talk about the price in front of everyone: just Peter, and supposedly he is a close friend of Ivan's. Yes, she is looking for money, but at that time (as others have said), women couldn't go out and earn money. When Ivan dies, she loses her income. She is totally beholden to her husband to live comfortably.
Of course, my opinion of her may change since I've only read the first three chapters. (Read this years ago, but can't remember the specifics.)
Mod
De..."
Both of our perspectives may change. Who knows? I've only read the first three as well, although read it a long time ago in college. You could be right in your assessment. You make very good points. What jumped off the page at me was the comment about her always nagging.
You are right that it can become a cycle - nag because he's gone, he stays gone because she nags. A lot of things in marriage can go that way unless you pay very close attention. It will be interesting to see how it goes.
It is interesting the way in which starting off the story with the death of Ivan and opening with the funeral does make people instinctually more inclined to be sympathetic towards him. I wonder if this was part of Tolstoy's intention to alter are perceptions of the character. How different would are views of Ivan, his wife and his marriage be if we were not at first presented with the portrait of his death which made him appear to be such an isolated figure?
Ivan does neglect his family and it was his initial desire and belief when he got married that he could continue to live as he did as a bachelor and not allow his marriage to disrupt his enjoyment of life's shallow pleasures.
He does not want to make the commitment and sacrifices of being a husband and a father, and grows irritated with them it seems when they begin to interfere in his wanting amusement for himself.
Remi wrote: "Great discussion, thx!Melissa wrote: "I agree with there being a sense of resignation in Tolstoy but more than that is being portrayed. Such as when Ivan Ilych is courting Praskovya: "Ivan Ilych ..."
Yes! I think we see Ivan Ilych the same.
Silver wrote: "It is interesting the way in which starting off the story with the death of Ivan and opening with the funeral does make people instinctually more inclined to be sympathetic towards him. I wonder if..."I think you've hit it on the nose! Ivan Ilych didn't want his lifestyle to be disturbed by his wife and family.
The majority here are sympathetic to Praskovya because she is a woman and therefore without resources and so I tried to see her in a sympathetic light, but I'm just not seeing it.
I think the uncomfortableness in reading about death is one of the things that makes the first chapter so great. One of the best lines in the first chapter, IMHO, is, "Three days of frightful suffering and then death! Why, that might suddenly, at any time, happen to me, he thought, and for a moment felt terrified." Reading that just gives me chills. The thought of death is scary enough but that it could happen "at any time" is truly terrifying!
Aley wrote: "I teach this book every semester and it is one of my very favorites for its symbolism and its message. It never ceases to amaze me how uncomfortable people are when discussing the book because it a..."This is the second book I've read where the primary 'character' begins the book by dying. The other one is As I Lay Dying by William Faulkner. Faulkner's book focuses on the family as they take their wife/mother to the town's cemetery--which is quite a little trip for them. She dies at the beginning of the book and then for the rest of the story we see the trip through the eyes of each family member (and we hear their thoughts about her death).
I am finding it very interesting comparing my memories of Faulkner and this first reading of Tolstoy.
Kris wrote: "This is the second book I've read where the primary 'character' begins the book by dying. The other one is As I Lay Dying by William Faulkner..."Thanks for calling that to our attention. I have not read much Faulkner, including not AILD. I wonder how much Faulkner had DII/Tolstoy in mind when he wrote.
Melissa wrote: "...Reading that just gives me chills. The thought of death is scary enough but that it could happen "at any time" is truly terrifying! ..."9/11 anniversaries and memorial services are certainly times of reminding us of the reality of the "at any time" -- possibly especially for those of us who lived within the communities directly affected, but also for each of us when we ponder the personal and family impacts of that tragedy. But, of course, the phenomenon (and tragedy) is not restricted to such high drama.
Mod
9/11 anniversaries and memorial services..."
The death didn't make me uncomfortable. Maybe because it was so close to 9/11 when I read it. Plus it's also the anniversary of my mother's death. She had a long illness before dying so I wasn't really uncomfortable with what I was reading.
I don't really find either Ivan or his wife overly sympathetic. I don't really find them unsympathetic, either. I think they are an interesting mix of pragmatic and unwise. The lack of wisdom specifically connected to money and what is made clear to be a serious misconception of how common things like their decorating choices really are to others.It is hard in situations dealing with death to not make a person out to be better than they are. There is the common saying "don't speak ill of the dead" that runs through our minds. In fact, I think there is a tendency to go further to the other direction, particularly if there is guilt associated with a person. I'm not saying funerals should be full of criticism, but I do think it does more good to focus on who a person actually was than to utter platitudes making them out to be a saint they weren't. It's hard to healthily grieve without honesty.
Denae wrote: In fact, I think there is a tendency to go further to the other direction, particularly if there is guilt associated with a person. I'm not saying funerals should be full of criticism, but I do think it does more good to focus on who a person actually was than to utter platitudes making them out to be a saint they weren't. It's hard to healthily grieve without honesty. "Yes I completely agree and becasue I myself am a person who is all about being frank and honest, I cannot stand phony politeness, this kind of thing drives me crazy.
It reminds me of a few years back this woman was murdered, and while no one deserves that and it was a tragic thing, complete strangers, people who did not know anything about her, and who she was as a person, and just heard about the case on the news would act like she was this saint on earth.
There was this indidivual who wrote a tribute song to her, and this person was not someone who knew her personally, it was not a friend, or family member, while she was alive they knew nothing about her. But hearing about her death they wrote this song about what a wonderful and angelic person she was. But for all they know in her day to day she could have been a total jerk.
It is so true as soon as someone dies all of the sudden it is as if they transcend into these perfect human beings that never did wrong. And just becasue someone is dead I do not think means that you shouldn't still acknolowdge some of thier flaws, and wrongs.
You should speak in complete honesty about them.
I am enjoying these comments. I studied Russian literature in college, and always had a hard time with Tolstoy, especially compared to Dostoevsky who was, and remains, my idol. This is the first time I have read Ivan Ilyich, and I don't know what I might have thought when I was young, but being at an age much closer to death than to youth I found it a masterpiece. Every word rang true to me, from beginning to end. A lot of what appears at first to be just general Russian gloominess is, I think, universal human relationship. I don't want to give anything away for those who haven't finished the book (I had to keep reading because it was so extraordinarily good), but just want to say that I love the character of Gerasim, who is to me straight out of Dostoevsky. I am now inspired to read and re-read more Tolstoy. Guess there's a reason he's considered one of the greatest writers of all times.
BunWat wrote: "But like everything else in this story so far, its a tale of a very ordinary life, full of very ordinary irritations and very ordinary pleasures...."I think that's right. This is the story of a very ordinary man and his very ordinary life and his very ordinary death. Except that for a person who is dying, dying and death are not ordinary experiences.
This has been a year touched by death for me. A close friend died suddenly in June, a young woman I have known since her birth is slowing dying of ovarian cancer, and my boss - a woman of 49 - also has inoperable cancer. Having contemplated dying and death so much throughout the year, I find Ivan's experiences incredibly poignant and moving.
Kim wrote: "...Except that for a person who is dying, dying and death are not ordinary experiences. ..."Well said. To some extent, although not so profoundly, the same ("not ordinary experiences") is true for those whose lives are especially entwined with the dying. How attuned Tolstoy is to that reality is not totally clear to me based on these three chapters, although some of you have been quick to point out the widow's early concerns.
The Death of Ivan Ilych is really about living, not death. It also extols peasant life in the character of Gerasim, the peasant boy whose simple goodness makes Ivan question his own values, just as peasants' lives made Tolstoy question the value of his.Hypocrisy is a way of life for the novel's characters, as nearly every statement is made to hide real motivations and feelings. As Ivan Ilych grows more ill, the hypocrisy in the world around him hurts him as much as his sickness. However, his final moments are not depressing or painful but full of hope. Although the novel, like the world, is full of hypocrisy and devoid of love, Tolstoy is offering us an alternative. Both compassion and living fully are possible when there is no time left, and Ivan's acceptance of both compassion and his own mortality means that his death can be a happy one - he is redeemed.
It is perhaps significant that DII was published several years after a period of depression and personal intellectual turmoil that ended with Tolstoy's conversion to Christianity
Wonderful comments! Thanks, MadgeUK for sharing this discussion with us from the Russian group. Hi to Silver from that group too!
I agree that Ivan and his family are average people. Also, I agree that the comments and thoughts of people at the viewing of Ivan are very true to life in that they reflect concerns we would naturally have (even if they do seem to be somewhat unPC! Finances are a real worry, and getting to a card game, while it may appear selfish, is an example of how life goes on.) I think death is personal...Ivan really goes through it alone. Nobody else can experience another's death. Life continues for the other people, but Ivan is going through something which removes him from the life of others, the life he had known.
Like some of the other people in this discussion, I have recently experienced the death of someone. My dad died, and I started this story a few days later. I suppose that event influenced my reading. I am sad that Ivan felt that his life may have been a sham. I hope my dad died knowing that although he made mistakes in life, that is ok, we are all human. He lived a life that was to be celebrated, and I see Ivan's that way too! Despite the seemingly petty comments and actions the narrator reveals to us. I don't see that Ivan should be sad, or ashamed or resentful. I think the author is though! Hmm, maybe I have let my own experience influence my reading too much. Maybe that is why I just don't get this story. :)
I agree that Ivan and his family are average people. Also, I agree that the comments and thoughts of people at the viewing of Ivan are very true to life in that they reflect concerns we would naturally have (even if they do seem to be somewhat unPC! Finances are a real worry, and getting to a card game, while it may appear selfish, is an example of how life goes on.) I think death is personal...Ivan really goes through it alone. Nobody else can experience another's death. Life continues for the other people, but Ivan is going through something which removes him from the life of others, the life he had known.
Like some of the other people in this discussion, I have recently experienced the death of someone. My dad died, and I started this story a few days later. I suppose that event influenced my reading. I am sad that Ivan felt that his life may have been a sham. I hope my dad died knowing that although he made mistakes in life, that is ok, we are all human. He lived a life that was to be celebrated, and I see Ivan's that way too! Despite the seemingly petty comments and actions the narrator reveals to us. I don't see that Ivan should be sad, or ashamed or resentful. I think the author is though! Hmm, maybe I have let my own experience influence my reading too much. Maybe that is why I just don't get this story. :)
Christi wrote: "...Despite the seemingly petty comments and actions the narrator reveals to us. I don't see that Ivan should be sad, or ashamed or resentful. I think the author is though! Hmm..."So far, the authorial/narrator judgements are getting in the way of the story for me -- I interpret that is basically what you are saying as well?
Tolstoy had led a dissolute life as a young man. As he aged and became such a strong almost symbolic figure, at times it seems to me that he failed to understand that the things he had done gave him the depth of human understanding he did possess -- that is, he became judgmental rather than "this is the way it is/was." It seems to me that when he becomes judgmental is when he occasionally gets in the way of his art -- and probably his own life, for that matter.
Another thing that surprises me so far is the apparent lack of observation that death is often preceded by a period of fairly intense illness that prepares the human to vacillate on his/her desire to let go versus to cling to life. (That may come yet.)
Christi wrote: "...Like some of the other people in this discussion, I have recently experienced the death of someone. My dad died, and I started this story a few days later...."Deep condolences to you and yours. Death of a father is its own especial walk in life.
I add my condolences Christi. Reading Ivan must be especially poignant for you.
that is, he became judgmental rather than "this is the way it is/was." It seems to me that when he becomes judgmental is when he occasionally gets in the way of his art -- and probably his own life, for that matter.He suffered from extreme bouts of depression at this time, a condition which goes hand in hand with feelings of guilt. Together with his new found religiosity and notions about sin, this must have created turmoil in his mind. I also think that sexual frustration had something to do with his state of mind and have posted something about the on The Kreutzer Sonata thread.
BunWat wrote: "...Not so the Victorians, who seemed entirely at home with the subject,..."What I have read suggests they were a lot more familiar with death than we are -- childbirth death rates were higher, more mothers died in childbirth, no antibiotics were available to fight infections, vaccines were just becoming available, surgical procedures have changed, .... Also, bodies were often prepared by the family or servants and caskets/viewings were held at homes -- I even remember at least one of those as a young person.
Today there is probably greater denial of at least the immediacy of death -- cremations without viewings are more frequent, memorial services rather than funeral services are often held. The words of justification are usually ones of "celebrating a life" rather than memorializing a death.
Your list of mementos are interesting reminders of past practices, BunWat.
Lily wrote: "Christi wrote: "...Despite the seemingly petty comments and actions the narrator reveals to us. I don't see that Ivan should be sad, or ashamed or resentful. I think the author is though! Hmm..."
..."
Yes, Lily, you have understood what I attempted to say! Like you, I also feel that his opinions get in the way of his writing (in the writings that occurred after his 'conversion' especially).
..."
Yes, Lily, you have understood what I attempted to say! Like you, I also feel that his opinions get in the way of his writing (in the writings that occurred after his 'conversion' especially).
Lily wrote: "Christi wrote: "...Like some of the other people in this discussion, I have recently experienced the death of someone. My dad died, and I started this story a few days later...."
Deep condolences ..."
Thank you, Lily, BunWat, and MadgeUK. I also add my sympathies to Kim and Deborah as well.
Deep condolences ..."
Thank you, Lily, BunWat, and MadgeUK. I also add my sympathies to Kim and Deborah as well.
Lily wrote: "BunWat wrote: "...Not so the Victorians, who seemed entirely at home with the subject,..."
What I have read suggests they were a lot more familiar with death than we are -- childbirth death rates ..."
Yes, that is very true. Illnesses that we have vaccines for today, took the lives of many people. Families were much more used to death than we are today. I sort of envy (if that is the right word!) the old custom of laying out family members in the house, of having visitors come to that intimate place to mourn or remember or help. I think you are right that denial is much easier in our current society with memorials/cremations etc. Yes, how true that now we speak of 'celebrating life' instead of 'memorialzing death'. I would prefer a mix of both! Now many people are afraid to mourn the dead because our culture pushes us onward faster. It is not really considered healthy or normal to spend too much time grieving. Interesting thoughts you have brought up, BunWat and Lily!
BunWat wrote: "MadgeUK wrote: "I add my condolences Christi. Reading Ivan must be especially poignant for you."
Add mine as well. Condolences too to Kim, and to Deborah.
We all will experience the deaths of..."
My grandmother had albums that included the photos of her relatives and kids in caskets. My sister thought that was gross, but I understood it. It was the last picture EVER of the one you loved.
What I have read suggests they were a lot more familiar with death than we are -- childbirth death rates ..."
Yes, that is very true. Illnesses that we have vaccines for today, took the lives of many people. Families were much more used to death than we are today. I sort of envy (if that is the right word!) the old custom of laying out family members in the house, of having visitors come to that intimate place to mourn or remember or help. I think you are right that denial is much easier in our current society with memorials/cremations etc. Yes, how true that now we speak of 'celebrating life' instead of 'memorialzing death'. I would prefer a mix of both! Now many people are afraid to mourn the dead because our culture pushes us onward faster. It is not really considered healthy or normal to spend too much time grieving. Interesting thoughts you have brought up, BunWat and Lily!
BunWat wrote: "MadgeUK wrote: "I add my condolences Christi. Reading Ivan must be especially poignant for you."
Add mine as well. Condolences too to Kim, and to Deborah.
We all will experience the deaths of..."
My grandmother had albums that included the photos of her relatives and kids in caskets. My sister thought that was gross, but I understood it. It was the last picture EVER of the one you loved.
One thing that caught my attention was Ivan's perception of his power from the start of his career and then years later.At first, "Ivan Ilych never misused this power of his, on the contrary, he tried to soften its expression; but the consciousness of this power and the possibility of softening it were the things which created the main interest and attractiveness of his new service."
Then, years later, "The consciousness of his power, the possibility of ruining any person whom he might want to ruin, even the external dignity of his entrance into court and meetings and subordinates, his success with superiors and subordinates, and most important, the mastery (he felt this) with which he conducted cases --all this made him happy."
Subtle, but there is a change.
It is also an acknowledgement of the reality of his situation, a realisation and acceptance of what he is.
Mod
Add mine as well. Condolences too to Kim, and to Deborah.
We all will experience the deaths of..."
BunWat - You are so right about the Victorians. And thanks for the condolences. Mine go out to Kim. The loss of a parent never goes away but it does get easier. I think Victorians were more comfortable with the natural life cycle that includes death because most people died at home. Children were lost sometimes early in life to diseases. Wakes were held in the house. It made it all the more natural to them.
@ msg 50 BunWat wrote: "...To have the power to do harm but to choose to refrain from using it. Not to use the power to help people, not to use the power to punish people, but just to have it and keep it restrained. ..."Anyone who has ever worked for a boss that did not appropriately restrain his/her power can probably appreciate the moral character in doing so.
Ch. 1 "News"
Ch. 2 "Who He Was"
Ch. 3 "The Quarrel"