A Dance with Dragons
discussion
Who thinks Daenerys should have flown back to Westeros a long time ago?
Ada-Lee/ eyehavenofilter wrote: "Opps...was that you Roger sorry... Got to give credit where credit is due....( weird as it is)"
Is ok ... And thanks.
Perhaps Martin has a metaphysical problem. (Zeno's paradoxes or Achilles and the Tortoise). No matter how fast Dany moves she will only ever get half way back to Westeros. Taking ever shorter journeys that will only ever get her half the remaining distance back. The reader is teased with one journey after another that gets us infinitely close to the end goal without actually reaching it. The same goes for Tyrion, he will quickly get to the point Dany was but she will have moved slowly to someplace else. Seems everybody is seeking somebody else but never quite gets to them before chaos ensues. It is the defining quality of the series. Whether Cersei/Tyrion, or Arya/Samwell(Jon), or Jon/Bran, or Arya(Red Wedding).
Therefore, Dany will return to North of the Wall. Close but still not all the way back.
Dany will meet Bran, who the three eyed crow said will never walk again, but he will fly. The Dragons will come from the North.
Well well someone with my point of view
I guess your right, but she was under a lot of stress. Check out my webcomic, updates every Thursday: http://reddkaiman.blogspot.com/2013/0...
My biggest fear is that one of the Dragons will die (I always cry for the animals and children in books). If there will be a conclusion to all of this, and if George rr Martin will attend to his health,(may he live long and write more) I could easily see the dragons melting the wall, the small people free at last, in the North, as in the South, and Daenyrus and Jon flying off into the world of Immortality, and Caetlyn getting some really good work done on her face.
I thought there were a couple opportunities for her to return to Westeros. I thought the logic didn't carry enough weight in either instance. Then I thought it could be something more. In the end, it could be that the final battle as it were would take place between Westeros and the Free Cities. With turmoil still in Westeros, it would not have been the right time for the battle so to speak. Just a theory I had :)
If all the chapters comprised one big book published at once, her journey would have made a lot of sense.The reason we are having this discussion is because most of us expected the fifth book, as the book in which she will attack Westeros, but instead we got boring chapters of Dany in Meeren.
The second point I'd like to make is Martin's motivation for writing this book. I think we can ALL agree that this is not a fairy-tale! Meaning, he NEVER, EVER intended to write so many books, so we can just see SOMEONE sit on the Iron Throne. The books aren't about who is going to win the game of thrones, instead we'll be given a strong political message at the end of the book. Many fans think that by the end the monarchy will fail and a new political system will prevail. Nonetheless, even if Dany sits the Iron Throne something more must happen.
Third and final point! If the plan is for Dany to win the game of thrones, that will be the end of the books. And we won't see her rule! So he had to give us the Meerenees chapters, in which Dany rules, and we see how bad/good a ruler she really is. We see the complexities of being a ruler, the threats one faces etc. Plus he fleshes her out, he lets her grow, while others seek her, and while the world learns about her uprising.
Just imagine how dull would have been for Dany to invaded Westeros in the third book. We are talking about a young inexperienced 16-year old that is still in puberty and can't control her sexual urge (cough, cough Mister Naharis). Someone that has no allies, no army, no battle strategy, no cunning and wit etc. By the end of the fifth book, we get a seasoned woman, that comes to her roots - the Dothraki! Because they are her roots. She was born THERE, not the Seven Kingdoms. She is in love with the dangerous, masculine Dario, not Jon Snow or someone that "she is meant to be with".
Martin sends a very direct message throughout his books: We make our destiny ourselves! (so no Azor Ahai stuff might happen) And a great ruler is not a just one! A great ruler needs to be more than just, kind and good!
So she should have, what......cut ties and dumped the people she'd conquered into the mess she made instead of trying to clean it up? That sets a dangerous precedent as a ruler.In any case, Dany's definitely going west, if only because dragons vs. Others. Whether she'll actually STAY there and rule as queen...I have my doubts.
I go back and forth about Dany taking too long and that she should have returned to westeros already. Yes her story had become slightly annoying. But for the most part I understand why she hasn’t left yet. As others have said: she just has too many people now. They all are her followers and she will not just abandon them. If she did just abandon everyone and head to westeros then what? Everyone there sees that she abandoned her original people, which will not make her look good to them. And she cant trust anyone in westeros right now. Most of them either want her dead, think of her as just some little girl, or just don’t care and will ignore her. if she goes back now it wont make any sense and all it will do is make her story useless. And as for the revenge thing and her probably never returning to westeros I agree mostly. She will probably realize some day that westeros isn’t necessarily what she wants anymore. She will realize that she is needed more where she is currently at. Especially if she gains more followers there. My view is that she will make it to Westeros. I feel her dragons will play a part in battling the white walkers. But then after that’s all done she will give up her claim and pass it on to someone else. And then return across the sea to rule there. Perhaps in Meereen or somewhere else. Back to the Revenge thing: I think if revenge is whats going on with all these characters it could be because it’s a theme for GRRM on purpose. He does it to show the readers that revenge is not good. That it gets you nothing. Or even turns you into a monster. Characters either don’t get the revenge they want or they go way overboard and deliver revenge in the horrible ways such as Theons torture. Ramsay was a monster and cruel. Little finger has been so immersed in political plots and revenge schemes that there’s no way he’d ever get out of that way of life. Arya is going down the same path. She’s so consumed by her revenge that it may turn her into something she doesn’t want to be. Sansa has had so many bad things happen to her and has been so manipulated but so far hasn’t thought much about revenge.
Dany wanting revenge I think isn’t as strong as the others desire for it. Its more that she just wants what is her families right. But if there is revenge in her she will realize there’s no point, as others have said. And she will abandon it.
As for Aegon: I personally don’t like him and believe he is the murmurs dragon. Even if he is the real Aegon, I don’t believe he would make a better ruler than Dany. He hasn’t been through enough. He dosnt care about the people. Throughout this entire story all the possible rulers of westeros have only been in it for themselves or revenge. Most of them don’t actually care about the realm. And as we see near the end just from watching Kings Landing through Cercei, the people are mad. They are going hungry and being destroyed by these wars and they are tired of it. They don’t want some random king who just wants power. And Dany shows that she actually cares about her subjects. This is one thing that will make her a better ruler than all others. Even in real life history has shown that bad or selfish rulers end up losing power because the people rise up. I think the state of kings landing and Dany’s “soft spot “ for slaves is a big clue for the readers. She will bring the change that the realm needs.
Edit: Plus it takes awhile to train soldiers and gather forces and get enough trained ppl to actually make a difference. she had to start from scratch. with nothing. all these other rulers in westeros have had bannermen and ppl who know now to fight and will be loyal to them. she is only just now getting that. if she were to go over now she would be eaten alive by them
Some say Dany will go East to go West, and cross the Sunset Sea to get to Westeros from the other side? But I think that's highly unlikely because there simply wont be enough books for a journey that long! (Assuming the known world is round and there aren't anymore continents there. GOD KNOWS DANY DOESNT NEED MORE STOPS)Im starting to think Dany will never reach Westeros or she'll die getting there. It sounds like a very GRRM thing to do.
Daenerys is not ready for Westeros. Her Dragons are not fully grown. They may be ably to hunt but have no training, preparation or experience for war. Most importantly her mind is not ready to war with all the Great houses of Westeros. The experience and craft of all the houses alone will be more than a challenge even for the mother of dragons. She has to wait until she and her dragons are at full strength so that she can go at full force. Just like her ancestors did. When Aegon the Conqueror and his two sisters landed in Westeros he was an absolute victor because he had all those elements working for him not against him. His dragons were fully grown and at full strength, Aegon was prepared, each dragon had an experienced rider that trained them in war.
Aegon also hit Westeros with complete surprise and no one was prepared for it. With Daenerys situation, all of Westeros is aware of her and you can bet after 300 years of knowing about dragons, Westeros will have thought of some new strategies to counter the threat this time around. Not that I believe any strategy will work but its certain that she has a harder path before her then Aegon ever did and she won’t win the throne unless she has every advantage she can get.
Another point is that she needs an army.
Aegon knew the importance of an army just as well as he knew the importance of his dragons. Dragons are so rare and valuable that they’re almost not worth the risk of using for total war. Jorah Mormont said to Daenerys, “A dragon is worth more than any army, Aegon Targaryen Knew that.”
Aegon used the Dragons to gain victory over two kingdoms of Westeros by hammering them into a quick submission, turning four thousand men into a field of ash at a battle called the field of fire. After that great battle, Aegon took command over the remaining enemy forces and marched them on to conquer the next Kingdom. Aegon only used his dragons in war like that once and never again, because with an army he can keep his dragons safe, thereby keeping himself safe and continue his quest to conquer the known kingdoms. Aegon used his dragons to command the allegiance of the armies but he used the armies to serup power and rule the 7 kingdoms.
Just because Daenerys has 3 dragons does not mean she knows how to use them or that shes ready for Westeros. Her dragons give her power but Its called the game of thrones not the game of dragons. She has much to learn. I am glad she has time to grow still because to take on the throne she will need all the wind in her sails.
by brocfoerster@live.com
Have you ever caught yourself saying, I just want to read a book that can surprise me or I wish I could watch a show that I can't predict? I see what people mean when they say they feel that too many good characters die when too many boring ones live. That can frustrate the nerves sometimes and create some serious emotion when you’re attached to certain key characters that randomly die, but I think that is kind of the point of a good book. To mix up your emotions...
I love Tolkiens books, with respect they are both epic and great! But if there was one thing I knew from the start of reading his books, it was that the good guy will win in the end. You know your reading a story you already know the ending to. Reading it is suspenseful and epic but when you’re at the end of reading the book and look back, the end was predictable.
I feel with a game of thrones, at the end of the books, looking back you won't be able to say the same. You won’t be able to say, I saw that coming. I think in the end the reader will look back and say now theres a book that surprised me! Theres a show that I couldn’t predict at all!
With a game of thrones my focus is not on that the good guy always wins in the end. Not that I don’t imagine he does... but thats just it, I have to imagine what comes next and not just that the hero wins in the end. With these books, I truly don’t know that.
So instead I am wondering how the heck does a good guy win and which one wins if any, what roads will we go down next and which boring characters will grow into good ones and what good character might die next?
The twists in these books leave me not only afraid of getting attached to favorite key characters because their fates are unknown and I don’t want to be let down but I am honestly left guessing at what will happen next.
Having to hold back those natural emotions that come when you read or see something is like having to randomly change the daily routine of how you brush your teeth. Now you have to use the opposite hand.
Try it.
It takes a lot more focus than you'd think.
The same thing happens here when you read the game of thrones and a hero randomly dies. Naturally you relate to, cling to, and adore the rising hero of the story. Its natural because its predictable, you've done it over and over so much with every hero that its become muscle memory and a routine. You know that the hero will somehow win in the end and so your focus is just watching (how) he wins. But throw in a random twist to what comes natural, throw off your routine thinking and its hard to handle, like your toothbrush in the wrong hand.
Everything that came natural to you now becomes shaky and questionable. But that is when you are most aware and engaged, when you are torn from the normal of your routine thinking.
In order for you to call truly call this a good book that's where the book must take you. It is far more demanding, exciting and potent to the minds of the readers and watchers, than what comes natural because before it was a simple emotional trigger you pulled without hesitation but now you are afraid to pull the trigger not knowing what will come of it. You can't see the outcome of your emotional attachments to what your reading anymore and for the first time in a long time you get a angry sense of being lost and not feeling in control.
Now your focused and right where the writer emotionally wants you to be.
A place where you seldom go.
Other books that I read and know the endings to are good books but knowing the end is knowing the limit of what you're reading. That is the focus of a well written book, to throw the readers off so well and play with their emotions so much that they lose their dogmatic, routine views of the ending and instead focus on the present of where the reader is in the book and keep them constantly guessing and changing their guesses on how it will end?
I can’t say I know how these books will end or even if they will have an end but I can say that because they are so unpredictable and toy with the emotions so well, these books offer me more than most can.
“I don’t know their limits and so i'm left only to learn their capacity.”
The same is said about imagination.
And that's where the writer aspires to take you,
a place you seldom visit.
Also I take into account the life of Abraham Lincoln when it comes to the boring characters that have survived. Lincolns story didn't start at being the President. His long story of constant failure, though boring, is exactly what made him the President. Great things take care and patients. "Kings are not born they are grown."
Take that into consideration when you think about boring characters like Bran and Theon. Are they boring characters or are they models for greatness? I guess we will have to wait and see...
brocfoerster@live.com
Benjamin wrote: "I'd like to see her return to Westeros, but I'm in no hurry.What annoyed me was that her character used to be clever and cunning - she conquered three cities by guts and guile. Yet in the latest ..."
You forget how young she is! She married Drogo at 13. The fact that she has done anything like she has is amazing.
This true,she does however have Ser Barristan,the Unsullied,and Tyrion is in the general area.And we all know he is brilliant.If in the next book Dany could take ships including Arya to the southernmost part of Westeros.The dragons could get bigger and maybe Dany could form alliances.
I hate to do this but I'm pretty sure that GRRM is going to kill Danerys. Having red between the lines I would say there is a 88% chance she wont make it. He will kill the dragons as well. He said it would be a bittersweet end. so we shall see.
i really dont wanna see her on that ugly chair she has a greater destiny to unite essos under her rule and restore valyria under a new dragon queen then she can help one of her nephews claim the iron throne.
Does anyone have any insight as to why dany was afraid of the fire of her dragon near the end of this book? Other than fleeing from it being out of control and easily able to stomp her into the ground, she also fled from the fire. I was led to believe that she was immune to the effects of fire and knew it very well. So why flee when it came at her?
Roger wrote: "Brett wrote: "I think some of you are misled in the belief that Aegon is actually a Targaryn (pardon my spelling). In the fifth book I believe that magical person who keeps coming and giving Dany p..."That would be a bittersweet ending indeed
Dustin wrote: "Does anyone have any insight as to why dany was afraid of the fire of her dragon near the end of this book? Other than fleeing from it being out of control and easily able to stomp her into the gro..."
It's been several months since I read the book,but I'm gonna go with dragonfire as opposed to man-made.
It's been several months since I read the book,but I'm gonna go with dragonfire as opposed to man-made.
She gave up on her dragons and her quest, and that's why her story ended the way it did. She was one of my favorite characters but I understand her ending.
I would agree but you got Arya in the vicinity and Tyrion is right there.
Georgina wrote: "I really like her but I wish she'd get a move on. And even though one of her dragons killed a child I felt that locking them up wasn't the right decision. She should have been trying to train them ..."How is she supposed to train her dragons? The Valyrians used sorcery to control their dragons and Danny is no sorcerer. She can't even get Drogon to take her back to Mereen so how could she possibly get to Westeros with her dragons? The easiest path would probably have been to go with the Dornishmen, meet up with Jon Connington and Aegon and then match on King's Landing but GRRM is not about to let that happen. The Daario bit just proves that she is still young. I think what she is going through now is necessary if she is going to rule the seven kingdoms.
It is completely implausible to me that Jon Snow is not Ned's son. The reason his wife hates him so much, or one of them, is that he looks more like his father than any of her own children (if anyone remembers that from book 1). Also, GRRM went out of his way to make sure that we understood that the most characteristic trait of Dany's family is the white hair and violet eyes.
Well I did not like her sitting and waiting in that stupid city, she should have sacked it and moved on as before but I can kind of see where GRRM might be going with it so I wont complain too much.
Well here's a thought, again, Dany on the throne,Tyrion as the hand, / really the king / Jon at the wall where he belongs, with the lovely Greyjoy as the first female crow... Arya as the new "spider" and assassin. just in my dreams I guess, down south Jamie and Brienne Rule. Cerci is imprisoned...with Boltons bastard... As her jailer... Theon gets to watch! Truely twisted.
Eyehavenofilter wrote: "Well here's a thought, again, Dany on the throne,Tyrion as the hand, / really the king / Jon at the wall where he belongs, with the lovely Greyjoy as the first female crow... Arya as the new "spide..."
If Danaerys gets the throne I think you're right about Tyrion being The Hand.And Arya as the new Royal assassin.
If Danaerys gets the throne I think you're right about Tyrion being The Hand.And Arya as the new Royal assassin.
Charlton wrote: "Eyehavenofilter wrote: "Well here's a thought, again, Dany on the throne,Tyrion as the hand, / really the king / Jon at the wall where he belongs, with the lovely Greyjoy as the first female crow...."Arya as the new Royal Assassin... now you're going to inspire Arya/Fitz shipping, you know?
Wastrel wrote: "Charlton wrote: "Eyehavenofilter wrote: "Well here's a thought, again, Dany on the throne,Tyrion as the hand, / really the king / Jon at the wall where he belongs, with the lovely Greyjoy as the f..."
(...I'll put it this way if it were to happen she'll be in a place of royalty.
(...I'll put it this way if it were to happen she'll be in a place of royalty.
Daenerys has a lot to learn about ruling, military strategy and controlling her dragons. She is not ready to take on Westeros, not just yet.
Teresa wrote: "Daenerys has a lot to learn about ruling, military strategy and controlling her dragons. She is not ready to take on Westeros, not just yet."
She really can't control the dragons.
She really can't control the dragons.
She's not ready to return. If she returned too early she would have been killed easily. She was smart to avoid making herself an immediate target when she was so weak. In Meeren, her dragons are growing and perhaps breeding. She's creating an army, learning to govern, figuring out what kind of ruler she wants to be. It's been boring but ultimately necessary for her story. A single dragon won't win a war. 3 untrained, unridden dragons certainly won't either. Troops are backed up by dragons but dragons especially young dragons can be taken down by ground troops.
If you haven't read The Princess and the Queen in the Dangerous women anthology, you should. There's a lot of great information in there about dragons and using them in battles.
JaphiaHart wrote: "She's not ready to return. If she returned too early she would have been killed easily. She was smart to avoid making herself an immediate target when she was so weak. In Meeren, her dragons are gr..."
You make a really good point.My only question though is,is she really trying to train the dragons?
You make a really good point.My only question though is,is she really trying to train the dragons?
When I read Game of Thrones Daenerys comes across as the least likable person. If George Martin is par for the course then she'll be the victor in the end.In my version of the book the dragons turn and eat her. That particular character is the only reason I am not overly excited for the next book...
Mweene wrote: "How is she supposed to train her dragons? The Valyrians used sorcery to control their dragons and Danny is no sorcerer. She can't even get Drogon to take her back to Mereen so how could she possibly get to Westeros..."Victarion is sailing towards Meereen with that horn Euron gave him. Of course, that opens another can of worms…
Charlton wrote: "JaphiaHart wrote: "She's not ready to return. If she returned too early she would have been killed easily. She was smart to avoid making herself an immediate target when she was so weak. In Meeren,..."she barely knew how to feed them much less train them. she's never had as much as dog much less a dragon. she's running on instinct. It's sheer luck that drogon allowed her to ride him instead of eating her. It's sheer luck she hatched them.
I think deep down (before riding drogon) Dany was scared of her dragons. I would be too. She knows almost nothing about them. no one does. I would have thought she should go to Assahi to learn but it was probably smart not too. They could have stolen them.
Tricky things. Dragons. They have free will, are stubborn, and highly intelligent. They're aggressive wild predators. It's like asking "How do you tame a bear?"
I know we are talking about fantastical things.But for riding purposes,she is travelling with horse-men.They certainly couldn't break them but I would think they could've developed gear enabling a person to ride.And starting the process when they were as small as a cow to get them used to riders,the biggest drawback of course being the breath weapon.
The dragons weren't large enough to ride until Dany had been in meeren for some time. By that point she had alright put them in the pit and drogon escaped. I think putting them in the pit was the worse thing she could have done. I believe when she returns to meeren she's going to change that but how she will get the dragons back is another question.
@JaphiaHart
See that's what I thought,chaining them in the pit was like putting them in jail.And I would think a real loss of confidence.Even if she is the "mother" of dragons.
I really need to re-read the last two books,maybe the series,I'm sure I'll have time before Winds of Winter comes out.
See that's what I thought,chaining them in the pit was like putting them in jail.And I would think a real loss of confidence.Even if she is the "mother" of dragons.
I really need to re-read the last two books,maybe the series,I'm sure I'll have time before Winds of Winter comes out.
Will wrote: "FittenTrim wrote: "Does anyone in these books who desires "revenge" get it? No."False. Tyrion got revenge against his father and against Shae. Arya gets revenge against Weese, her abusive captor..."
On the revenge side, those seeking revenge are not also seeking pronounced glory, only a reckoning. To this end, George as been predictable. Neither Tyrion nor Ayra are driven by entitlement.
What I am noticing here is a general lack of acknowledgement for a point that comes up again and again in the text. Perhaps I am wrong, I have largely scanned through the previous 91 posts and haven't had time to read them all; but so far, I haven't noticed anyone mentioning the fact that Daenerys returning to Westeros would mean abandoning her people in Essos. I can recall this being raised a few times since she began her campaign to liberate the cities of Slaver's Bay. What began there as an attempt to raise an army quickly became a campaign of liberation for her, and the consequences of that became apparent immediately. With every city she sacked, she gained more of a following, but this in turn made her responsible for more and more people. And after Yunkai was recaptured by the slavers and their allies, she found herself besieged.
So really, the opportunity to leave Essos was lost at this point. If she were to have simply flown off with her dragons and Unsullied, the people of Mereen would have been lost without her and suffered the same fate as the Yunkai. And while it is in keeping with Martin's annoying tendency to drag things out and throw endless complications into the mix, I don't see how she could have simply upped and gone back to Westeros a long time ago.
I think she's going to take her people with her like a khalasar. I don't think meeren is going to survive the next battle. But I wouldn't have put it past her to just abandon them in the beginning. However, now I think she feels more for them.
JaphiaHart wrote: "I think she's going to take her people with her like a khalasar. I don't think meeren is going to survive the next battle. But I wouldn't have put it past her to just abandon them in the beginning...."Bingo! If they can break the siege and end the war with the slavers, she will be able to leave. If they lose, then she'll have to return anyway because the east is now closed to her. Either way, this had better get wrapped up soon because (as this thread can attest) readers are getting tired of delays!
Story wise her remaining there is no longer necessary. She has an army, she has advisors, her dragons have grown large enough to ride, the white walkers are on the move. She ready to head to westeros.
Though when I remember that she started off a 13 yr old girl sold to pay for her brothers army and now she's a conqueror in her own right. She's really evolved. And rather quickly I may add. Even Stannis's army is smaller than hers (I think) and she doesn't have to rely on a loan from any banks. She's quite a strong player now.
JaphiaHart wrote: "Story wise her remaining there is no longer necessary. She has an army, she has advisors, her dragons have grown large enough to ride, the white walkers are on the move. She ready to head to west..."
Except that her dragons are locked away, aside from Drogon that escaped. Her rule of Mereen is also in jeopardy from the Sons of Harpy operating in the city, and the armies of Yunkai and Qarth that are at her gates and threatening to lay siege. The only thing holding these threats at bay is her marriage to Hizdahr zo Loraq - a Mereenese noble - and she can't break that without breaking the peace.
There are more complications, but I once again have to ask how far you've read. Otherwise, I'm just dropping spoilers.
I've read and reread All the books, prequels, comics, apps lol. At the end of adwd all of the dragons are loose. I think Most of the complications could be sorted if she backs up her threats and begins executing the hostages. She needs to take a firm role and stop trying to play by their rules. I think her flying off on drogon was symbolic of that. She'll return as a khal, do what she has to do before burning meeren to the ground and taking her people across the sea (either dothraki or the literal one)
But that's pure speculation. Bring on twow!
JaphiaHart wrote: "I've read and reread All the books, prequels, comics, apps lol. At the end of adwd all of the dragons are loose. I think Most of the complications could be sorted if she backs up her threats and..."
Oh yeah, I forgot that the others got out. But they are not with her in the sense that Drogon is, they simply got out. And last we heard, Drogon left her alone, destitute and hungry, and the khal's arrival is not exactly a good sign. In all likelihood, she'll be taken hostage and require her dragons, who hopefully meet up together, to come and rescue her. Although there is a chance the khal will read the writing on the wall and try to help her, in order to avoid any ugliness with her dragons later.
When the khalasar shows up dany is standing in front of her dragon like a boss! It's literally my favorite scene from adwd. So cool. If you forget her bout of her period/diarrhea right before hand. But I'm sure she was still a boss even if she was a smelly boss. ;)I do wonder how she will reign in the other dragons but I imagine it'll work out. The other dragons were never as willful as drogon.
JaphiaHart wrote: "When the khalasar shows up dany is standing in front of her dragon like a boss! It's literally my favorite scene from adwd. So cool. If you forget her bout of her period/diarrhea right before hand...."Dammit, you've got me on another technicality. Last thing I remembered was her standing in the river and doing her business. And as I recalled it, Drogon was still leagues away after having left her behind.
It's ok. a lot happened that chapter. And technicality is kind of my jam. I wonder if Dany's first words in twow will be "darcarys"
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