SciFi and Fantasy Book Club discussion
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Leviathan Wakes
Group Reads Discussions 2011
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"Leviathan Wakes" Finished Reading(Spoilers Away!)
Okay. That does it. I just requested it from my library again. I need to read this a second time in order to discuss it fairly. Other than gushing about how I like it!
Vomit zombies. Awesome.
Say that with echo turned on and the volume turned to 11. WIN!
Denae wrote: "I don't understand what made Julie so special that the protomolecule went back to her when it was in a place with so many options."My understanding was that Julie was used a a vector to infect the entire station on to initiate the real experiment. It could have been done other ways, but this was how it was done. Being a closed system it is controlled and the scientists wanted to see what happened to humans, per se.
Looking forward to the sequel!
The moon was Eros. The question is, and I might have missed this, but how did the Protogen scientists know she would head to Eros, where they had spent months setting up the closed system, when she was originally from Ceres and had her hole (apartment) there?
Her arrival on Eros (an asteroid iirc) was not part of the plan. I am a bit fuzzy on whether they would have been forced to abandon without her due to lack of the molecule or whether she just provided a more advanced culture. Regardless, this does not fully explain why the molecule attached to her personality to such a degree that she could control it. Why her and not one of what must have been hundreds of other forceful personalities on the station?
What to say, I read through this really fast (a good sign in this case) the pacing was spot on there was no point where it felt like it was lagging or did i lose interest in the story. As for why the protomolecule listened to Julie what stuck out for me was that the outbreak came from here, essentially making her the protohost (couldnt help myself). She was also the one to get the virus off the ship it felt quite natural to me that she exerted such influence on things. I guess I don't really need a complete answer as to why just because of how natural it seemed to me.
Roger wrote: "The moon was Eros. The question is, and I might have missed this, but how did the Protogen scientists know she would head to Eros, where they had spent months setting up the closed system, when she..."I thought she had been instructed to go to Eros?
Leah wrote: "I was a little bored with the story after Holden and Miller left Eros. It felt like a murder mystery before and that the "mystery" of it all was solved too quickly. After all of the action and twis..."I don't think we're supposed to know what happened on Eros after the last Miller chapter. Hopefully we find out more in the next book, which I'm really looking forward to. I thought the whole book was exciting and great. I agree with the past comment that it had a great pace and stayed exciting. When the Julie situation happened at the end I thought, "Oh no, this sounds cheesy" but it ended up working. I agree with the other previous comment that everything ended up feeling natural.
Things I liked: How each of Holden's "amateur press releases" had far more unintended consequences than anything else.How the spread of vomit zombie goo seemed like marmite.
The first three fourths of the book.
Things I didn't like: Miller's inner dialogue.
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But I'm definitely looking forward to the next book.
Roger wrote: "Vomit zombies. Awesome."lol
Vomit Zombies?
They should've put that on the cover, I'd have read it sooner.
They should've put that on the cover, I'd have read it sooner.
Leah wrote: "I was a little bored with the story after Holden and Miller left Eros. It felt like a murder mystery before and that the "mystery" of it all was solved too quickly. After all of the action and twis..."Exactly.
Is this really a space opera? It's not like any other space opera I've read (although I've only read a handful so) ...
Jeff wrote: "Things I didn't like: Miller's inner dialogue."Or just Miller in particular. There were a couple of shining moments between Miller and Holden, but Miller (or Holden) sabotaged those almost immediately.
Ala wrote: "Vomit Zombies?They should've put that on the cover, I'd have read it sooner."
Ouch. :P
"Is this really a space opera? It's not like any other space opera I've read."Yes, clearly a space opera. And it's similar to certain other space operas.
But this is clearly, oh so very clearly, a novel inspired by a role-playing game setting and I believe that it is that influence that seems so different to anyone without a background in Sci-Fi RPGs. The heroic tropes, the deep consideration for hard science, the fantasy influences, the particular sort of character that Miller and Holden have, and even the way that the subject of ethics are approached are all rooted in RPGs.
Do you mean something like Mass Effect?
Ala: Err... No. Maybe I'm too nerdy, but I tend to not think of cRPG's as being true RPG's. True RPG's use pencil, paper, dice, and imagination.By sci-fi RPG, I mean something like Traveller or GURPS: Transhuman Space. The later would be my first guess as to the game they were playing that inspired the story.
Although, Mass Effect as a cRPG would have some of the same influences as 'Leviathan Wakes'.
Damn. Mass Effect isn't nerdy enough? :P
I get what you mean though.
I get what you mean though.
I really enjoyed the book, and yes I can see some RPG influence there, though we were saved from space faring elves, so that's a plus.I also liked how the women weren't treated as some sort of after thought or accessory like I see in many books set in space/military with male protagonists. There wasn't the "eh, she's here and I'm horny" thoughtless pickup (see Consider Phelbas) or the "she was stunningly beautiful but she couldn't resist me" ego stroke. The women were useful, interesting, and valued by the male characters.
Lara: I'm not quite as forgiving of the female characters as you are. I think it's pretty typical of nerds to have as their sexual fantasy a highly capable individual. Even Heinlein, who at times does strike me as sexist, has female characters who are useful, interesting, and valued by the male characters. That's a pretty low standard.I think what you see in the book is nerd romance and on that grounds its hard to separate out the ego stroking from the more general positive valuing of women. The point is ultimately not just that the women are useful, interesting, and compotent but that useful, interesting, and compotent women ultimately end up being with and attracted to the nerd protagonists.
I would note for example that there are basically only 5 women in the story - three are minor characters and the other two are the love interests. Furthermore, on no occassion do we see two female characters interacting with each other. It's still a male world dominated by a male viewpoint; it's just a world were the males within it are comfortable with strong women for whatever that is worth.
I wouldn't want to press that argument too strongly. I'm not sure feminism as a critique is all that useful. There aren't many stories, including most written by women, that really pass the test of not being a male centered world where womens lives revolve around men. Some very good fiction written by female authors - Vorkosigan series by Bujold, Harry Potter series by Rowling - probably drives political feminists nuts precisely because they are male centric worlds where the women are engaged by and with primarily by their relationship to men and I in no way want to damn any of these stories. So I'm not actually condemning this way of looking at the world, just noting that its perhaps far more of a traditional world view than you might think if you are only looking at the female characters in terms of whether they are strong or not. In terms of the story framework, the fact that the women are highly desirable 'high level' characters and attracted to the protagonists makes them more of an "ego stroke" as you put it.
For my part, I didn't find this element of the story nearly as jarring as when it showed up in Peter F. Hamilton's space opera work where it not only was more blatant, but helped ruin the story for me. I don't think that in this story at least the sexualization of the female characters crosses the line into sexism. In fact, I think that the story might have been written in the same way by a female author, because if you reverse the perspective what you get is highly compotent females for whom compotent males are willing to sacrifice everything and make their own lives revolve around them. So this romanticization works both ways, much to the chagrin of political feminists. I'm not even going to condemn twilight, which maybe takes it too far but which seems to differ only in being more blatant and honest about it. To me it's ulimately a comparitively healthy attitude on both sides, even if it is - and maybe because it is - romanticized. It might be a little healthier though if there existed as healthy or complex of non-sexual relationships between female characters as exist between the men.
Don't get me started on how negatively and sickingly feminist science fiction tends to protray both men and women by comparison, and I invite you to consider whether feminist fiction really imagines women as having lives which are at times not defined by their relationship to a man. I'll take nerds that have a hard time imagining a scene where two women are talking to each other (unless it is about them) over someone who who is busy and consciously judging characters primarily by their gender any day.
Ala wrote: "Vomit Zombies?They should've put that on the cover, I'd have read it sooner."
I completely agree. Win!
Wow Matt, that was way more analysis then I was expecting over a comment of something I liked. I think you read way more into my comment then I intended. I was NOT critiquing the book on some sort of "is it pro-feminist" scale. I was merely stating that I found the females interesting and 3 dimensional vs. quite a few books that I have read that had me rolling my eyes at the behavior/portrayal of female characters or having the female characters falling into the beds of the male characters for very flimsy reasoning as though it was only up to the man to decide and she would comply. Finding believable women vs. cardboard cutouts is refreshing after some of the other titles I've come across recently.
There were very few characters in general, so the count is meaningless. Also, we are talking about a military setting for at least part of the story, where women usually are under represented, especially in positions where they would see combat.
PS. Feel free to condemn Twilight. I'd gladly line up for a book burning of that drivel.
I enjoyed the Miller / Holden duo. I thought they played well off each other. (the last line in Casablanca came to mind) "I think this is the beginning of a beautiful friendship". However I'm not sure how this relationship will continue. I thought Miller's imaginary relationship with Julie was nicely done. I thought it gave Miller a real depth of character.
I don't think Miller was supposed to be likable.
Roger wrote: "I don't think Miller was supposed to be likable."Roger, I don't know about that. He reminds me of the Dirty Harry type. Ruff around the edges, but soft in the middle (or something like that).
I thought he and Holden were like opposite sides of the same coin.
Miller was both unlikable and heartbreaking - not so much for his actions at the end, but his reaction to the curves he was thrown. I've returned the book to the library, but there was that moment, when Miller thought he was being cut loose yet again on another station, only to have Holden treat him like the rest of the crew was brilliant. It was just a few paragraphs, but to steal a line from the good Doctor, "His heart grew three sizes that day." Then he turns around and does something to get himself thrown off Holden's crew, even after we know how much it meant to him. I also liked the scene where we learn Miller didn't know who Frank really was.
I do have to admit - the ending lost me a bit, and it's hard to put my finger on why. While I was reading, liberal hippie pacifist that I am, even *I* thought they were insane not to blow Eros out of the sky when they had the chance. I'm pretty sure I uttered the word "Really? out loud several times. Now that I've had time to think about it, it's not so far-fetched - plus I doubt they would have been able to hit it, but still.
Denae wrote: "[spoilers removed]"Just finished, and I too had to wonder at the centrality of Julie to the Eros entity. As Eros developed a voice and some cognisance, I imagined a gestalt consciousness with no central control, built from the biomass of Eros and programmed by the protomolecule. Got to admit I was a little bit disappointed ideas wise when Julie appeared as a Borg Queen sort of character.
While I'm having a grumble, I can't get over the fact that no one went ape over the sudden unveiling of an inertialess drive. Ok so the energy needed to manoeuvre Eros is phenomenal but it's still science e=mc.squared type stuff, but inertialess acceleration WOW! that should have made their hair stand on end. Also the assumption that the originator of the protomolecule's intent was aggressive not being questioned rankled a bit with me, couldn't they be benevolent creatures seeding the stars with intelligent life Uplift style.
All right, grumble over. Like others here I liked the pacing and POV switching. Not so sure the POV flip-flop worked for me whilst Miller and Holden were in the same physical locale but loved it elsewhere, kept the pace and tension high all the way through.
Another aspect I liked was that the main characters were deeply flawed. I get a little sick of super alpha characters who always do the right thing, never cock up and flounder in self doubt for a while. I loved the fact that Holden often acted without considering consequences and causing problems, and that often he had no idea what to do next.
Miller on the other hand was a truly damaged character. My favourite scene with him was when his internal self image was turned upside down by his new partner Muss. I think he was a very interesting, clever, complex character and I was sad to see him go.
Oh, one final thought on the feminist-ish angle, I got a kick out of the little turn when the young brash male captain of the Ravi was quietly displaced by the cool calm authoritative strong voice of the real female commander of the warship.
So I finished this last night/this morning.
I have to agree with Richards grumbles here. Julie, the Inertia-less travel and the fact that the protomolecule was automatically assumed to be a weapon.
Aside from those though, I enjoyed the book.
And Miller was my favorite character.
I have to agree with Richards grumbles here. Julie, the Inertia-less travel and the fact that the protomolecule was automatically assumed to be a weapon.
Aside from those though, I enjoyed the book.
And Miller was my favorite character.
i couldn't finish this one. the main problems i had were around dialogue and world-building (or solar system building, i suppose). the excitement factor wasn't there for me either - i wasn't only frustrated most of the time, i was bored too.ah well, better luck next book.
I got a hold of this book late, so just finished. I was hooked right from the beginning and then blown away by the zombie outbreak. That was exciting. Holden pissed me off. He came off as impulsive to me, even when he was being represented as idealistic. I just wanted him to take a breather and think about the consequences to his actions.
I liked Miller until he found out he was a joke and went on a bender. He was the most interesting character in the book, imo, but his unraveling made him less likable to me.
This book was so entertaining that I didn't really give myself time to question stuff like why Julie was the main driver of the protomolecule but I know I will be thinking over this book for a while!
Millers unraveling actually made me like him more. He took a bender, sure, but he kept going.
I read this book while on vacation in Florida and enjoyed it immensely. It's a great book for a quiet day poolside. I'm really looking forward to the sequels.
But I was left wondering; if the goal was to turn Eros into a giant, sealed Petri dish why destroy the Canterbury? Why start a war?
Did I miss something obvious?
Not that it matters. It was a fun ride.
But I was left wondering; if the goal was to turn Eros into a giant, sealed Petri dish why destroy the Canterbury? Why start a war?
Did I miss something obvious?
Not that it matters. It was a fun ride.
Maura wrote: "Why start a war? Did I miss something obvious?"It was to distract the rest of the system from what was happening on Eros. If they were focused on the war nobody would pay attention to a smaller event.
Roger wrote: "The moon was Eros. The question is, and I might have missed this, but how did the Protogen scientists know she would head to Eros, where they had spent months setting up the closed system, when she..."I doubt they did. If she had gone somewhere else they probably would have just taken her to Eros.
Melissa wrote: "I didn't really give myself time to question stuff like why Julie was the main driver of the protomolecule but I know I will be thinking over this book for a while! "She was the first, and I assumed the protomolecule imprinted itself on her. Over time I suppose the other infected humans on the station would also contribute their memories and minds, but at that time she was in control.
Richard wrote: "I think he was a very interesting, clever, complex character and I was sad to see him go."Who says he's gone? I got the impression that the protomolecule was turning everyone who came in contact with it into some sort of collective consciousness. Nothing says, and the existence of Julie at the end distinctly implies, that everyone is still in there.
Jon wrote: "Is this really a space opera? It's not like any other space opera I've read (although I've only read a handful so) ... "I don't see why they called it that either.
Pulling this up for the re-read group....I love the vomit zombies in space too! I actually liked Miller better than Holden.....YMMV
All the above comments seem confused about Julie and the protomolecule, so after a second recent reading here's my thoughts -1. Julie wasn't supposed to survive the initial encounter where her ship was taken. I think they forgot she was in that locker or they would have strapped her to the reactor like everyone else.
2. She figured out enough before she was infected to know that radiation fed the protomolecule and so she starved it. This is why she survived long enough to make it to Eros, where she went because she knew of a safe place she could hide out.
3. I think #2 is also why the protomolecule bonded more with her and how she ended up retaining her "self" within the crowd - because she stayed alive and conscious much longer than the rest.
4. I think the stolen ship of hers was meant as an incubator in prep for the Eros mass infection - Julie ending up also on Eros was coincidence. I think when they later went back to it by that asteroid it had been cleaned of the protomolecule (not sure about that).
After a second reading, I loved this book (and the rest of the series) even more.I sympathized with Miller so much, the scene where Holden rejects him is painful. Especially when he was so right! That guy needed to die!
And I found Holden so naïve and ridiculously frustrating, I just wanted to jump into the book and slap him about a hundred times lol. But he so earnestly wants to be honorable, in that good old fashioned sense, and he makes so many mistakes, but keeps plowing on trying to fix everything. I have a love/hate relationship with him throughout the whole series - he does improve.
Naomi, on closer reading, is really a hidden gem - she's the glue that keeps them all together and sane. Plus she knows pretty much everything about the ship, she's a genius - like an actual genius. Without her keeping Holden in touch with the real world, things could have been much, much worse for our heroes. And she demands that he take her seriously, she makes him aware of his past callously cheerful tomcat behavior, and refuses to let him be with her in that way.
Alex and Amos are fun too, but they don't get enough story in this book. Later we get to know them much better.
I didn't see any references yet to Firefly, but it's there very much I think with the crew of the Rocinante (Ha what a perfect name for Holden's ship!).
Michele wrote: "After a second reading, I loved this book (and the rest of the series) even more.I sympathized with Miller so much, the scene where Holden rejects him is painful. Especially when he was so right!..."
I agree 100% re Holden1 SOOOOOOO not in the real world. This is probably why he had been busted down in the first place. However, the circumstances here force his being accepted by the status quo because they need him. So its like he makes it in spite of himself!
I read it several months ago.Although the vomit zombies were too over-the-top for a "serious" story, the space travel was realistic.
I have to say that the writers did a pretty bang-up job on Holden to elicit such a visceral reaction from some of the reviewers here. Miller was pretty good as the hard-boiled detective trope.
Finished the book yesterday. Started out great and very well paced but it lost me a little for the last 30% or so. The last few chapters picked it up again, and I will probably keep reading the series but I'm not in a huge rush. Like a few other posters, I liked Miller a lot more than Holden. Holden actually seemed very naive and impulsive and got pretty tiresome, and it also felt forced that he was constantly and randomly in the middle of the most important events in the solar system all the time.
I bought and read the book when it first came out, not knowing it was part of a series. Do I have to read it again if I want to start up with the sequels now? Also, these guys were the assistants to George R.R. Martin -- have they picked up any of his bad habits for writing more and more slowly?
A book a year so far, and only Ty Franck works with GRRM.If the story's still mostly in your head no need to reread. Next one starts up about a year later with some new characters and the Rocinante crew.
Trike--no, you don't have to read it again. I think I saw on a Youtube author interview that they weren't intending a trilogy but were blown away by the success of the first. I don't know that they are writing slowly as much as collaboratively and maybe not sure on where the universe will take them. To me, the second flails a little and the third is less satisfying. Definitely liked this one the best.
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