City of Bones
discussion
Can't stop thinking of plagarism
"As for The Secret Country, I also stated in my disclaimer that Draco's trip to the afterlife was an homage to Pamela Dean, and a friend of hers (Pamela Dean's) wrote me after I posted it nd said she loved the homage, thought it was great. There was some discussion of Dean's books on the PoU list as well afterwards. I was planning to do some crossover stuff with it down the line. " Subject: [cassie & Rhyseen] *is quietly mystified* June 23, 2001
She claimed Pamela Dean (or a friend of Ms. Dean?) loves the 'homage'? That's a shameless lie, I afraid. Plus putting up a disclaimer which states "I forget the author's name..." doesn't sound like a proper way to honor the author whom you pay your homage to, not at all.
And more (also from http://www.fanpop.com/clubs/mortal-in...)Cassie Clare: They went forward in a line: Harry, Fleur, and then Draco. At first it was bare moonlit ground, but it kept getting rockier and weedier, and they had not gone very far when it turned into wet knee-high grass. A cold, wet, close sensation overtook Harry, as if he were crawling through a slimy cave. It was extremely unpleasant. He shook his head, looked up – and nearly yelled out loud.
[...]
Get up, Draco told him, sounding less amused this time, and Harry got to his feet. His hands were still shaking but the cold fog seemed to have lessened. Come on, and Draco grabbed him by the shoulder and propelled him forward. Harry took two steps, and the grass twined itself up around his legs with blades as sharp as swords and began cutting into his skin. He yelled. Draco’s grip on his shoulder tightened. Think about something else, he told Harry urgently, and keep moving forward, and Harry thought hard about Hermione, squeezing his eyes nearly shut, even though every time he took a step he felt as if the grass was cutting his legs to ribbons. But he went on being able to walk on them long after they should have been mincemeat, and after a few strides he was able to ignore the feeling.
Pamela Dean, The Secret Country
83: "There had been a path of sorts when they started, but it kept getting rockier and weedier, and they had not gotten very much farther when it turned into wet knee-high grass."
84: "A cold and wet and horribly close sensation overtook her, as if she were in a slimy cave. She shook her head and looked up, and shrieked."
85: "Ruth took two steps into the grass, which twined itself around her ankles with blades as sharp as swords and began climbing her legs."
85: "The grass sank itself into her legs again, and every time she took a step she felt as if it were cutting her legs to ribbons. But she went on being able to walk on them long after they should have been hacked to mincemeat, and after a few strides she was able to ignore the feeling."
The problem is that the Mortal Instruments series are not that different from the fan fiction. The names have been changed, but Jace is Draco, pure and simple. it's easy to recognize others, as well. And the sad thing is that the Draco Trilogy is STILL better plotted than any of the MI series ... sad, sad, sad.
Okay, So she wrote a book based off of "her" fanfiction. But she plagerized. The whole idea of the fanfiction was plagerized. That is why it isn't availabe any longer. But since she plagerized on her fanfiction and copied that same idea for her book, the question is whether you consider the book a plagerized work then, because publishing companies don't.
I wonder what limit will a publishing company 'cross or not cross' upon publishing books.50 Shades of Grey is written as a fanfic based on the Twilight series but in erotica romance version. Did they care about whether it was some fan-fics or it was going to be a hit?
Nurlely wrote: "50 Shades of Grey is written as a fanfic based on the Twilight series but in erotica romance version. Did ..."Publishers only care about money money money.
Mizuki wrote: "Publishers only care about money money money."Yep. That's so true!
I don't think the publisher cared a lot about Cassie's fanfic as her original idea for TMI series.
Nurlely wrote: "Yep. That's so true! I don't think the publisher cared a lot about Cassie's fanfic as her original idea for TMI series."
As long as they can get away from the laws, they would published it regardless it's plagiarized or not.
Nurlely wrote: "50 Shades of Grey is written as a fanfic based on the Twilight series but in erotica romance version.Was. Was written as a fanfic based on Twilight. But in the process Twilight was reduced to an inspiration, it's not like the 50 Shades' lady copied dialogues from Bella and Edward.
Fanfiction is NOT plagiarism. You write your own story, but in someone else's universe. And you give them credit for that - still, the story is yours and original. Plagiarism is taking someone else's work and presenting it as your own. Big difference.
As to Fifty Shade of Grey, I just saw this review:http://www.deviantart.com/art/An-hone...
And if we are talking about fanfics getting a book deal and becoming profitable produces, this argument about 'fanfic-authors write their own stories and should get credit for it' is standing on a shaky ground.
Kat wrote: "Fanfiction is NOT plagiarism. You write your own story, but in someone else's universe. And you give them credit for that - still, the story is yours and original. Plagiarism is taking someone else's work and presenting it as your own. Big difference. "
I know very well what a fan-fic is.
FSOG was originally a fanfic for Twilight made into a book upon Publisher's request.
The biggest differences I can say about Twilight & FSOG are one is a story of fantasy romance and the other is erotica romance. One is about a girl falling for a sparkling vampire and the other is about the most naive not-even-a-teenager virgin who gets sex lessons.
Kat wrote: "Nurlely wrote: "50 Shades of Grey is written as a fanfic based on the Twilight series but in erotica romance version.Was. Was written as a fanfic based on Twilight. But in the process Twilight wa..."
I agree, If it's different enough, that is.
Okay you guys need to chill out. Ginny has red hair so does Clary. Wow. They have the same hair color. SO plagiarized. (Not.) Jace and Draco are both blonde. A lot of people are blonde, not just Draco. Overall, the Mortal Instruments is completely original. There might be a few quotes or paragraphs but not enough for the hate yall are giving her. Rowling didn't have shadowhunters who had runes that gave them powers and killed demons. Some people say Voldemort is like Valentine. They are. That doesn't mean he's a copy. Valentine is like any other villain just more bad ass. It is ORIGINAL and, in my opinion, better than Harry Potter. So stop hating on her. Theres like 10 paragraphs total that were even similar to another thing. Stoo bashing the whole series and give the woman some damn credit its totally original and creative.
And btw, she plagiarized in her fanfiction. But that's not her novels. THE MORTAL INSTRUMENTS IS NOT PLAGIARIZED BY THE ANGEL!
I agree with you Michaela. Exactly what I said just shorter
Let me clarify:You people. Clare plagiarized passages from various novels in her Draco fan fiction series, and TMI is a fan fiction of her fan fiction. Fan fiction-ception, you could say. That's what it is.
There's like pages and pages of proof that Clare plagiarized in her HP fanfics; here's a really thorough link: http://www.journalfen.net/community/b...
I suppose the thing that irks me the most is that Clare refuses to admit she plagiarized in her HP fanfics; that and she bullies people http://alli6.tumblr.com/post/47193982....
Referring back to the original topic, I think that the whole debacle of Cassandra plagiarizing is kind of silly. So, she wrote a fanfiction about Harry Potter and now she is getting accused of plagiarizing mainly because she has werewolves and witches and vaguely similar structure (characters wise). In my opinion, that is not plagiarizing.
Look at all the book there are out there and try to simplify the characters. To simplify everything to basics. Is there a girl? If there is, is she the main character? Are there two boys? Is one of them her best friend? Does the best friend love her? I could go on, but you see, in today's book society authors have kind of run out of completely original ideas. They HAVE to go back to structures that have been used before. In any book you will find at least one thing to connect it to another and it just can't be helped. In this case, the only difference is Cassandra wrote fanfiction for a popular book series, which made the situation more evident. And if the argument is that she is plagiarizing off of her fanfiction, is it truly possible to plagiarize off of yourself? It is your (her) writing after all. I am not saying that it is okay to take the characters and fiction world and write sequels and prequels or whatever, and call them your own because you 'wrote it', I am only saying that the idea of shadowhunters is totally unique and that it is not fair to say that she is plagiarizing simply because the BASIC character structure is similar.
There is a bigger message in The Mortal Instruments, and I think the characters are only there to help the story along. To help you understand the bigger picture. So, there really is no need to focus on that part of the story. There is something more the book is trying to say, and it really doesn't have to do much with the characters specifically.
omg who freaking cares if some of it was from her days writing fanfiction! same sh!t! its still her work! so he gives a crap if she uses a line again its her ideas her work can she help it if a line from her old fanfiction works would be perfect for a scene in her current book it doesn't matter its her work damn it! its not like she took lines from other books and put it in her book thats plagiarism but not if its her own writing thats just so stupid to even say gees
Mrs. LiannaHerondale;) wrote: "omg who freaking cares if some of it was from her days writing fanfiction! same sh!t! its still her work! so he gives a crap if she uses a line again its her ideas her work can she help it if a lin..."Well because direct plagiarism is considered unprofessional and distasteful in the world of Publishing. It's a big no no.
In Fan Fiction you have to give credit to any and all authors whose work you have used or otherwise took inspiration from. CC didn't do this. In fact instead of rewriting her own scene she blatantly copied quotes, scenes and even dialogue verbatim from various books and even TV shows.
That is distasteful, even in the world of Fan Fic.
As to the OP, well I sort of see it. Harry Potter is very similar to the Worst Witch Series. But takes the idea of witches in school (which is an idea going back before Worst Witch even) in a new direction. Or at least an interesting one.
Of course there are similarities between Harry Potter, TMI and even Lord of the Rings. But that doesn't necessarily mean plagiarism.
All of them use similar tropes, cliches and even share similar mythology to a certain extent.
Although, yes CC was accused and found out to be plagiarizing in her Fan Fic days. That sort of taint on your reputation will never go away. Just the way the world works, really.
Somerandom wrote: "Mrs. LiannaHerondale;) wrote: "omg who freaking cares if some of it was from her days writing fanfiction! same sh!t! its still her work! so he gives a crap if she uses a line again its her ideas he..."UGHHHHHH!!!! Lol well, i still find it stupid. Poor girl is probably crying right now
Mrs. LiannaHerondale;) wrote: "Somerandom wrote: "Mrs. LiannaHerondale;) wrote: "omg who freaking cares if some of it was from her days writing fanfiction! same sh!t! its still her work! so he gives a crap if she uses a line aga..."There's a thing called professionalism and decorum. An author and even Fan Fic "authors" have to abide by a few rules. But ehhh. It was ages ago.
Why would she be crying?? Wait, who are we talking about in this scenario?
No I understand completely with the professionalism but come on. As you said she was young first off and second it was a long time ago. Lol, no forget about the crying thing I meant Cassie Clare after everyone was saying she was committing plagiarism. Just a joke ignore it.
Mrs. LiannaHerondale;) wrote: "No I understand completely with the professionalism but come on. As you said she was young first off and second it was a long time ago. Lol, no forget about the crying thing I meant Cassie Clare af..."Oh lol sorry. Long day. But yeah she was young but she also went too far. She apparently lied about the original authors not minding her plagiarism and even bullied people during the Fan Fic days during her time in the Harry Potter fandom. She was young and made mistakes sure. But she hasn't exactly been contrite about it either.
In order to win people over you have to show remorse. As far as I can tell she hasn't. So you can't expect everyone to just forgive her.
I'm not bashing her or anything, just saying that you have to earn respect in the Publishing and real world. If you lose that respect it will take a very long time to gain it back again. That's just how the world works. So I'm sure, in time, she will be all but forgiven by practically everyone. But I guess today's not that day.
And absolutely agreed. I understand what you're saying completely I'm not arguing or just disagreeing with you. Lol, its ok its been a long day for me too.
... Plaigarism.... Against herself...Something tells me the writer is not too hurt over the author's actions...
I'm assuming that she rewrote everything from her fanfiction when she adapted it for her pro fiction. But since it sounds like everything she wrote in her fan fiction was plagiarized, I'm curious as to how this works. No, it is not plagiarizing when you adapt your own work so that you can sell it.
gosh banish the poor girl just ´cause she loved the same book you did and loved it enough to write fan fiction. How did she dare to write her own series? (if you didnt notice I was being sarcastic) I dont really see what the big sin is in writing fan fiction. Fifty shades of gray started as a fan fic if I am not wrong. To me it kund of seems like somebody has issues and that somebody is not Cassandra Clare.That someone was just trying to make a name for themeselves or whatever. And if you have problem with her characters get over yourself - there is a typology that happens all the time you have the beautiful and verry flawed one that is not the main character (most chick flicks have one), bad boy, nerd, nice guy and so on, but thats just a friction of the whole character. And the whole threating thing with the lawyer? Well plagiarism is like deadly to a writer and you know her name is like life line for her so If someone was threating your work with groundless rumors, wouldnt you protect yourself ? I know that I would
It has nothing to do with writing fan fiction is bad. It has to do with at the time when she was writing fan fiction, she was really stealing quotes from other books/tv shows/movies and claiming them as her own. And it wasn't small here and there quotes. She actually directly copied several pages from a book, only changing the names. But, she never gave credit for them. And the reason she got banned from fanfiction.net(which did happen by the way) is because when she was caught, she still refused to give full credit. People were using quotes from her fan fiction and citing her, when in reality it was the work of other authors. I enjoyed reading the first 3 books of TMI, but when I really thought about it, it's clearly a fan fiction book (Clary is Ginny, Jace is Draco, and Simon is Harry). It's why I prefer the prequel series because I feel like it's more of her own world.
When you show your work to other people, even if it isn't published(for instance turning in a paper to school), if it was made my someone else it's plagiarism.
I feel like is argument is so circular. I'm unfollowing because every couple months some uninformed fangirl comes in and bashes everyone without knowing the true story.I think there's a lot of gray area involved in this. If you transplant a plagiarized work is it plagiarism? If you change names but create a work extremely similar to fanfiction which is based on another author's work is it plagiarism?
Like I said, enough grey area for Claire to get off legally. But morally? I'm still up in the air.
Anyways, I'm unfollowing this discussion because I didn't like the books very much even without this whole issue, and I'm sick of getting notified for the same thing over and over.
just because characters are simular, almost idenical, or a rip off of anoither does make it plagerisim... which is a legal word and not an ethical one. its not plagerism or also the story is not the same. simular but not the same. the draco character got with the ginny like girl. harry is not choosen and gay and in love with draco. simon or neville is gets with the hot strong chicks. and the family histoy is more twisted making the books legally different enough.
Ok, it's not the similar characters that makes it plagiarism. TMI has no plagiarism in it at all. Clare's publishing company would have made sure of that. The plagiarism comes from when she was a fan fiction writer. Pre-TMI.
oh eml... i have been agruing tin this post for over.... i really should stop the notices... but i am lazy
I wasn't reminded of other stories while I was reading this three years ago, but I do remember reading something about her plagiarizing from other authors in her fanfics, and using similar phrases from her fanfics in the this book. If that just made any sense.
Eml wrote: "I enjoyed reading the first 3 books of TMI, but when I really thought about it, it's clearly a fan fiction book (Clary is Ginny, Jace is Draco, and Simon is Harry). It's why I prefer the prequel series because I feel like it's more of her own world. "It's always nice to see readers who enjoy the books recognizing the problem. But as to Eml's claim that TDI is "more of her own world", I have to disagree. Because when you look at it more closely, Tessa is a copy of Clary, Will is Jace's clone and Jem is a Simon clone, we even have the pretty Jessamine as a bitchier version of Isabelle.
Mizuki wrote: "It's always nice to see readers who enjoy the books recognizing the problem. But as to Eml's claim that TDI is "more of her own world", I have to disagree. Because when you look at it more closely, Tessa is a copy of Clary, Will is Jace's clone and Jem is a Simon clone, we even have the pretty Jessaine as a bitchier version of Isabelle. "
The first trilogy is enjoyable to read while the 4th and 5th felt like an extended one, made to prolong the story.
TID's characters may be adjusted to the victorian era but they are rather similar to TMI characters. Lots of similarities between Will and Jace can be accepted due to their bloodlines but others are rather absurd.
It feels like Ms Clare is 'learning' how to write properly when she wrote TMI and while she 'mastered' her writing skill for TID, she made a horrible ending, in order to keep many fans happy.
I regret I ever read TID. As annoying as TMI second trilogy can be, I am still waiting to read the last book.
Nurlely wrote: "The first trilogy is enjoyable to read while the 4th and 5th felt like an extended one, made to prolong the story"'
You had said it all, Nurlely.
Lots of similarities between Will and Jace can be accepted due to their bloodlines but others are rather absurd.
I'm sorry, but since when personality and asshole-ness can also be passed down by bloodline?
I regret I ever read TID. As annoying as TMI second trilogy can be, I am still waiting to read the last book.
Really? Can we really be sure it's the last book of TMI? Salvation is finally at hand?
I hate playarism. I write my own stories and sometimes they say I copied someone else, but what ticks me off is tht I don't know what book they are talking about. Does anyone feel like that??
Emma wrote: "I hate playarism. I write my own stories and sometimes they say I copied someone else, but what ticks me off is tht I don't know what book they are talking about. Does anyone feel like that??"Well it is hard to come up with something truly original, but at least it should be obvious that you know what you are talking about and can use it. Also that you do not constantly repeat yourself.
And this is all where Clare fails. The latest Bane Chronicles had less weird similes but that one was written by three authors and was rather short so who knows. Not to mention that it took the franchise 17 books to get to that point and the characterization, plot and world building are still horribly flawed.
I think Clare cannot actually work with what she put in her books, she constantly contradicts herself, when and how she uses magic makes no sense whatsoever, several points that could be developed more and incorporated into good stories are just dropped and quite frankly, I do not think she knows what she is doing and talking about.
If you do not have the actions of the characters be clouded by rose colored glasses and actually keep in mind what is stated about this world throughout the books, the people come along as incompetent assholes. Well more than they already do. This is probably the author's biggest problem: She cannot keep it consistent within her own world.
In addition she basically hops on whatever trend is there, she has now idea or regard for history and cultures not her own, thinks the stuff she writes is deep, seems incredibly uneducated (based on what and how she writes) and unwilling to learn beyond common myths and stereotypes.
I doubt she even remotely realizes what sort of assholes most of her main characters are, she genuinely seems to believe they are good people and what she does is good and progressive, when its rather the opposite.
I agree with u. She did do tht and always wondered y.
Emma wrote: "I agree with u. She did do tht and always wondered y."Sometimes I think because she wants to score points for certain topics (LGBT, gender equality, etc.) and sometimes that she genuinely believes what she writes there but doesn't get, that what she writes is mostly crap. Practically every of her main characters is heavily influenced by one or two stereotypes.
I like the first book, but now I'm stuck on the second one and I just seem to not read it anymore. It's like I'm waiting for something better. Y'know.
Andre wrote: "I doubt she even remotely realizes what sort of assholes most of her main characters are, she genuinely seems to believe they are good people and what she does is good and progressive, when its rather the opposite. "Oh yes, oh yes. Clare definitely thinks Jace and Will are attractive and playful instead of assholes, Clary and Tessa are strong willed and independent young women instead of rude, reekless and self centered. You just have to be either really biased or very blind to see those heavily flawed characters with so much positive light.
I probably should have mentioned I haven't read all of her books. I read the first 3 TMI books(couldn't get through the 4th one) and only the first two of the TID(other books have come up that have kept me from reading it). I think Clare's biggest problem is that she wants to be cool(this is based off her website, interviews, and twitter account). It's basically the reason why she got into trouble with her fanfiction and now it's why her stories lack depth. She has a general idea of the topics that are in now so she tries to fit everything into her books. I think she's milking shadowhunters way too much. I gave up waiting for her to try something different.
If you have only read the first 3 TMI books, stick with it. Afterwards it gets only worse. You really don't want to know what happened with Maia's backstory, or Magnus and Alec, or the many inconsistencies, not to mention the stories in the Bane Chronicles. More than one Magnus fan hated him afterwards. But sadly probably even more still do not get what a whiney asshole he is (and trust me he constantly whines, all the time), and don't even get me started on her screwed equality messages, e.g. in 1857 London she had him think that this guy msitaking him for Indian simply doesn't care enough to know the difference, albeit not between Indonesia and India but between two totally unrelated cities.
Eml wrote: "I think Clare's biggest problem is that she wants to be cool(this is based off her website, interviews, and twitter account)."I know what it's like to be young and stupid and don't know a thing about giving credit to the original authors/creators when writing fanfics, but a 30-something woman who thinks she's too cool to face her own errors in the past and own up to them? That's just sad.
Mizuki wrote: "I'm sorry, but since when personality and asshole-ness can also be passed down by bloodline?"LOL.... maybe my personal excuses. You can kill me for this, but I am Jace-Will biased, so I forgive any similarities between them.
Although I have to get rid of JCB from my memory to enjoy Jace... LOL
Mizuki wrote: "Really? Can we really be sure it's the last book of TMI? Salvation is finally at hand?"
Not exactly sure about that. The possibility of having Jem-Tessa in the 6th book is also annoying. I wonder if it also shadows Emma Carstair, to tease the fans into the prospect of the next sequel.
Famous Ms Clare is milking her cow diligently?
When checking as to when book 6 will come out I saw some quotes from the book:a) Alec will try to get back with Magnus
b) Brother Zachariah/Jem is suddenly stated as hot by Isabelle, so at least Jem will appear. And Tessa probably too. Not that this explains why she was absent so far from TMI, except for that one second cameo in City of Glass.
Andre wrote: "When checking as to when book 6 will come out I saw some quotes from the book:a) Alec will try to get back with Magnus
Why, just why would he want to get back with Magnus?
b) Brother Zachariah/Jem is suddenly stated as hot by Isabelle, so at least J..."
A hot Silent Brother? Is that really possible?@___@
a) He has to get back with him because Clare has no idea about relationships.b) When he is a mmain character a Silent Brother must be hot.
all discussions on this book
|
post a new topic
Twilight (other topics)
City of Bones (other topics)
Stephenie Meyer (other topics)
Books mentioned in this topic
The Great Gatsby (other topics)Twilight (other topics)
City of Bones (other topics)
Authors mentioned in this topic
F. Scott Fitzgerald (other topics)Stephenie Meyer (other topics)
with them, not blackness, not anything. Harry, he tried to say, but
he had nothing to say it with – no throat, no voice. It was like
dreaming, and knowing he was dreaming, but not being able to wake
himself up.
"Harry!" he called out, and this time he heard his own voice, and
jumped. And as if that jump had cracked some glass he was imprisoned
in, light and color came rushing at him like a river in full flood.
He stared ahead into green-gray mist, and blackness, and a thousand
shadows suggestive of nothing familiar.
"Where am I?" he said out loud, more to hear his own voice than
because he expected an answer to the question.
No answer came.
He glanced down at himself, and the sourceless light showed him his
own form, still wearing the clothes he had been wearing last,
although his sword was gone and he was dry. He saw the darkness caked
all over the front of his shirt and knew it was the blood from his
face; he touched his cheek gingerly and felt the cut, but no pain."
Pamela Dean's The Hidden Land, Chapter 14
Ted opened his eyes, or thought he did. He could not see anything with them, not blackness, not anything. He did not seem to have eyes, or anything else. Randolph, he tried to say, but he had nothing to say it with. It was like dreaming, and knowing you were dreaming, and trying to wake up by remembering the bed, and the pillow, and the color of your pajama sleeve: it was like the time just before the trick worked and you woke up.
"Randolph!" said Ted, and jumped. He had a voice, and ears to hear it, and a nervous system to make him jump when he was startled.
He stared into grayness, and blackness, and mist, and a hundred shadows suggestive of nothing familiar. He looked down at himself. The sourceless light was not strong enough to show colors, but he knew well enough what the blackness caked over the whole front of him was. He decided not to look more closely. He held out a hand and looked at it instead. His fingernails were black. He was as grimy as he had been in the battle. He stared around him again, and a few yards ahead of him the shadows took on shapes that might have been the foam and waves of a swift river. Ted stood up. Everything worked and nothing hurt, but there was a curious emptiness in the region of his chest."
(analysis from http://www.fanpop.com/clubs/mortal-in...)