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Controversial Statements - Bring em - No weak sauce allowed! Homelessness: A Mercy Sex Ploy?
message 101:
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Michele
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Sep 04, 2011 12:50PM
might never proves who is right just who is stronger.
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I'm sure to be pilloried at a pride parade for what's to follow, but blame Kevin. He started all of this.
People who wear their sexuality on their sleeve or on their chest like a badge of honor or courage wear me right out. I could give a rat's ass whether you prefer the schnitzel or the taco. Give me something else to work with. I'll even suffer a discussion of your gargantuan collection of Lady GaGa memorabilia or your trip to Saugatuck.
People who wear their sexuality on their sleeve or on their chest like a badge of honor or courage wear me right out. I could give a rat's ass whether you prefer the schnitzel or the taco. Give me something else to work with. I'll even suffer a discussion of your gargantuan collection of Lady GaGa memorabilia or your trip to Saugatuck.
Do you mean people that are different from you who wear their sexuality on their sleeve or chest? You certainly have no trouble proclaiming your belief systems openly. Are only people just like you entitled to do so? Is it the difference from yourself that wears you out? Hate dripping sarcasm wears me out.
Anybody, Larry, including heterosexual dudes who brag about their sexual conquests and view women as just another notch on their bedpost.
Judgement dripping self-righteousness (read: you) wears me out.
Judgement dripping self-righteousness (read: you) wears me out.
Barb wrote: "Here's the thing Clark. If people don't wear it proudly, it gets stuffed back into the closet like an ugly sweater nobody wants to wear. That is not a good thing."
Careful with your use of the word "closet."
Careful with your use of the word "closet."
Larry wrote: "Uh huh."
OK Gladys Kravitz. When I snap my fingers, move on.
OK Gladys Kravitz. When I snap my fingers, move on.
see, this was what i envisioned. some life
Our dads were right in the early 80's when they told us to buy american. we instead went for the sony and mitsubishi TV's and electronics thinking "these don't really matter" and then woke up in the 2000's with plants closing down and being demo'd. Two things killed our economy: our insistence with buying the cheapest and unions
Without unions there never would have been a working middle class in this country. Anyone ever read Grapes of Wrath? That's what America would look like without unions in the late 19th and early 20th Century, with land and factory owners getting rich and everyone else working for poverty wages. Oh wait ... it is starting to look like that.
well, I work in a union environment and it is driving us into the ground right now
unions had a time and place when it was more about working conditions and decent wages. then it turned into a war of arrogance on both parts. i live in a union town that at one time had 10 GM plants (down to one pathetic deal), 3 chrysler plants (doing better since second tier pay scales came into place), a steel factory (union, closed) a vitreous china plant (union, closed), a big alloy plant (union, still open but hiring under 2 tier system now) as well as many small plants. the arrogance of saying "no concessions" and "FU" to companies as they made $35/hr to drive a forklift, sweep or sleep on the job while their companies were tanking (lots due to poor mgmt and gross salaries i admit) while the economy crashed around them was and is incredible. they did as little as possible at work, abused the insurance system and still thought they were bulletproof. hey, i was a union worker for 9 years and was embarrassed by them most of the time. oh yeah, we still wanted the cheapest so we bought foreign made products as well as cars and now there are few manufacturing jobs left
the unions don't want to compromise on anything. I had a discussion with my union steward recently regarding vacation and benefits. The P.O. is bleeding money in case you haven't heard. I asked why the union doesn't give up some of our bene's like vacation time or paid holidays (ie, Columbus day, Presidents day, etc) and eliminate Saturday delivery. The P.O. has to evolve. He said "we're not giving up anything! we will never get it back!" That is the mentality... the union would rather see the whole operation shut down than lose say 15% of jobs. And don't get me wrong, management isn't any better. They make decisions from an ivory tower and have no clue how it impacts daily operations. Unions had their time and have their benefits, but we have reached the point of diminishing returns imo.
I read today that USPS is close to going out of business, without some kind of assistance from government. They cite competition from email, FedEx, etc. as the main cause.I agree about the arrogance part of it. And that it applies to both management and labor in many cases. Management at GM, Ford, Chrysler, Penn Central, USPS, etc. made sometimes ridiculous agreements with labor that depended on business levels staying where they were after the end of WWII.
There are always two parties to labor contracts.
i never said elimination and reform would be good. i just don't see it happening because of the mentality that msP talked about. look, it is not about saving the workers from sweat shop style working conditions or working for sub-standard wages. if a new plant opens up and adverts for 2000 jobs they will have 15k applications. no matter what the wages. people can decide for themselves if they want to work for lower wages and OSHA takes care of job safety. we will get it straightened out somewhat when more of these old school union people are gone. harsh? yes but true. my dad is one of these but he is retired and realizes that the fat 70's are never coming back. oh, here is another controversial statement: if you have more than 35-40 years in at a factory be a patriot and retire. let someone young and just starting out have your job and you retire comfortably. i am in chrysler plants all the time and see people in their 70's still working with 40+ yrs seniority. they have the cheesiest jobs and still draw paychecks, benefits and have a nice retirement coming. be a patriot, give someone your job
amen to that K. I have a couple guys in my station that 35+ yeras and some of the younger ones with kids and families are in jeopardy of losing their jobs. doesn't seem right.
Mod
If every union were to vanish tomorrow, wages would drop precipitously, but they still wouldn't drop to the level they are in China and India. American factories still wouldn't be able to complete with Chinese and Indian factories.
As to our insistence with buying the cheapest, most people have been driven to it. Middle class wages have been stagnant since the early 80s. People with stagnant wages, incomes being eaten up by inflation, are supposed to buy more expensive things in order to be patriotic? It defies logic.
For those saying unions are full of lazy slugs who don't deserve the money they are paid, please remember that they did not negotiate their contract in an empty room. Corporations are always more than adequately represented in labor negotiations.
Kevin "El Liso Grande" wrote: "Our dads were right in the early 80's when they told us to buy american. we instead went for the sony and mitsubishi TV's and electronics thinking "these don't really matter" and then woke up in th..."
Right on, brother. Somebody cue up a Toby Keith song and I'll raise an American flag.
Right on, brother. Somebody cue up a Toby Keith song and I'll raise an American flag.
Phil wrote: "For those saying unions are full of lazy slugs who don't deserve the money they are paid, please remember that they did not negotiate their contract in an empty room. Corporations are always more ..."
This will probably ruin your day, Phil, but I must agree. Whoever approved that job banks program at GM - Roger B. Smith, anyone? - should have his head examined. Oops, too late. He's already given up his oxygen habit.
But c'mon... Workers earning 95% of their pay and full benefits to stay at home, prop up bar stools in a gin mill somewhere, or just lay on the couch banged to the gills on dope? Back in the late 90's, one of my friends was laid off for 22 months under the auspices of the job banks program and was so bored he went out and bought a pontoon boat. Talk about your American dream.
This will probably ruin your day, Phil, but I must agree. Whoever approved that job banks program at GM - Roger B. Smith, anyone? - should have his head examined. Oops, too late. He's already given up his oxygen habit.
But c'mon... Workers earning 95% of their pay and full benefits to stay at home, prop up bar stools in a gin mill somewhere, or just lay on the couch banged to the gills on dope? Back in the late 90's, one of my friends was laid off for 22 months under the auspices of the job banks program and was so bored he went out and bought a pontoon boat. Talk about your American dream.
I remember back in 2008, shortly before GM tanked, there was an article in the Detroit Free Press about how tough things were getting for the rank and file. A lot of those UAW leeches were bellyaching about how they were going to have to sell their boats and cottages up north in order to make ends meet. It really made my hind end pucker in sympathy.
One of the factory workers they interviewed was a sweeper who raked in $115,000 a year, including overtime. As if that wasn't bad enough, the guy was 82 years old and had 60 years seniority. Detroit, we have a problem...
One of the factory workers they interviewed was a sweeper who raked in $115,000 a year, including overtime. As if that wasn't bad enough, the guy was 82 years old and had 60 years seniority. Detroit, we have a problem...
Please realize that sleeping on the job and making $100k a year are not the norm for a union job. These stories stick in your mind because they do shock.
Clark wrote: "Kevin "El Liso Grande" wrote: "Our dads were right in the early 80's when they told us to buy american. we instead went for the sony and mitsubishi TV's and electronics thinking "these don't really..." In the 1970s, we bought Japanese cars because they were smaller, cost less and lasted longer. We bought the sony stereo because it didn't have a black & white tv with it. I'll buy American when it works and it is something I want. But, yes, then it is made in Mexico or China. This is not because union workers were getting a fair wage. This is because managment couldn't get their head out each other's asses long enough to give a shit about us consumers. Now,give me a service center with an English speaker.
carol - do you live in a UAW or teamsters town/city?not so sure about things lasting longer cheri but they were smaller and did cost less. you'll buy american when it is something you want but "yes, then it is made in mexico or china" ? that is not american made. trust me, i worked at a union plant for 19 years and lost my job due to the plant moving to china. i even went and helped move the plant there. things are not made better there. and they are cheaper much of the time due to shortcuts in production (such as lead paint usage, no waste water treatment facilities at the plant, extremely poor working conditions and wages lower than you have even heard). also i agree with most of you it is equally a mgmt fault. corporate greed is major part of this too. as for your statement about the negotiating rooms not being empty phil, our union guys would take $.10/hour any contract rather than $.05 and putting the diff in a retainer fund to get better lawyers. we tried that. instead they have union blow hards who talk loud and get red faced. i always said i would take a shrewd little quiet guy who was smart any day. many union people wrongly equate loud, aggressive flag-wavers with efficiency
oh and cheri, you can have english speaking call center people. they just have to work for lots less than what they would like. BUT if they did maybe they could get off welfare, unemployment and their @@@@@@'s
Cheri wrote: "Now,give me a service center with an English speaker."
And one whose only solution to every computer problem isn't to reboot.
And one whose only solution to every computer problem isn't to reboot.
Carol wrote: "Please realize that sleeping on the job and making $100k a year are not the norm for a union job. These stories stick in your mind because they do shock."
You're right.
You're right.
Clark wrote: "Cheri wrote: "Now,give me a service center with an English speaker."And one whose only solution to every computer problem is to reboot."
I once spoke to a Trakphone operator who was named "Cowboy." His accent wasn't too bad and he was quite helpful. I couldn't help giggle as I inquired, OK, Cowboy, I need to add some minutes to my phone. Hee hee.
^^^^^^^^^^^^ [shaking head up and down]
I have co-workers that tell me I am making them look bad and that I better slow it down... REALLY!!! the PO is bleeding and these people still don't frickin get it!
I think things work best when there's a balance. When workers are exploited the resulting sub-par working conditions and wages drive down purchasing power, job satisfaction and standard of living. When management is overpowered we see the type of crap that Kevin, Clark & Barb have mentioned.My brother-in-law was a union floorlayer for a dozen or so years. He knew of several older union guys with seniority who didn't give a fuck about the quality of their work because they couldn't be fired. Is that the fault of the union? Maybe partially, but it's also the fault of management, who didn't put some standard "quality of work" in the farking contract.
phil, i agree. has to be a balance but also both sides need to realize how fragile companies are and with arrogance on either side the whole place can be gone.
Mod
Can't be union. He works for peanuts.
She picks up peanuts with it?
Clark, man, you've got guts. I don't always agree with you but, fuck, I like your style.
Lobstergirl wrote: "Unions certainly have their flaws, but it's globalization causing job losses, not unions. Unions make a more convenient scapegoat because a lot of people would like to get rid of them, and because..."This makes sense, but no one wants to hear it because we're so helpless as individuals to make changes. The house always wins.
the problem with buying cheapest is not that it is unpatriotic (i have issue with what most people consider patriotism but that is for another thread) but that you usually cannot have your cake and eat it too. you can't complain about no jobs in the U.S. (sorry friends from other countries, talking about us here) and then walk out of every store with cheapest items made in other countries. i do agree with bun on poverty trap though. walmart makes it easy to buy for the moment. also consider obesity. it is relatively expensive to eat healthy.
Gail «Cyborg» wrote: "She picks up peanuts with it?"Learned my lesson. Don't put things up your nose.
http://youtu.be/xpz67hBIJwg
But as far as unions are concerned, I'm mostly pro-union but of the opinion some major reforms need to happen, on both sides. My boss is loudly anti-union, because he thinks it forces managers to keep lazy workers (we do government contracting, and a lot of the divisions we work with are horribly corrupt). But he wouldn't even hear me out when I tried to explain that, if unions keep lazy workers safe, then eliminating them makes it equally safe for incompetent managers and higher ups to make workers' lives miserable by taking away their security and ability to negotiate.
BunWat wrote: "This is the poverty trap. You can't get far enough ahead to buy things that actually work and hold together for any reasonable length of time because you're spending your money replacing the cheap crap that you bought because you "couldn't afford" the good one." Kevin "El Liso Grande" wrote: "you can't complain about no jobs in the U.S. (sorry friends from other countries, talking about us here) and then walk out of every store with cheapest items made in other countries."
One of my favorites is again fully apropos to the conversation.
Ann Coulter had what definitely should be considered a controversial statement.Coulter: Hoffa Represents "Useless" Workers Like "Kindergarten Teachers" Instead Of "Men Who Have Actual Jobs"
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