Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows
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James Potter or Severus Snape?
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Personally I love Snape. I've always loved characters that are mysterious and misunderstood. I like characters with depth; he's like an unread book with an unpleasant cover. Can you imagine how he felt? Haunted by all those thoughts that he could've done different... could've been different. He payed for his consequences; but imagine the hurt. Imagine the guilt. Imagine the remorse. What I don't like about the story that Rowling gave about that whole story was that it didn't comprehend Snape's depth of emotion for her (though of course you know that he DOES, it doesn't show why) or why he didn't quit being a Death-eater before her death. Did her walking away from him as a friend make him think that the Dark Arts was the only thing left for him? The truth is, I love characters that have been shunned and misunderstood... especially, when deep down they are the most amazing people ever. They remind me of myself, actually. What I would love is if Rowling wrote a more in-depth story of Snape just so that we could truly capture the depth of his love and see his thoughts to truly understand. As for James, I didn't care too much for him... he seemed like a douche. Yeah, he got better and changed his ways...or else Lily would have never married him. But I still like Snape better. James, after all, cannot be felt for in the same way. Maybe because he wasn't broken... I like characters that have a broken spirit; to me, a character I can empathize with will ALWAYS be my favorite. James was never a tortured soul; Snape was. The truth is, it all comes down to my personality... and someone I wish I could put a balm on their soul are the ones I will always love.
SEVERUS SNAPE!!!!!!!
Snape no question. He just wanted love and I think he was a very noble person.
Well, Snape was the bravest man Harry ever knew. After all, his father died when he was one. But still, I think James was the better man. Snape could have made Harry's life a lot easier as a teacher. He was holding a grudge against James, and he couldn't bring himself to even be nice to Harry, even though he was Lily's son. I personally think both characters are brave (James protecting his family and Snape sacrificing himself) but I lean more towards James; Lily chose him over Snape, after all...
Stacy wrote: "I think it is hard to compare the two, becuase we know so much about Snape, and so little about James Potter. All I know is that he had to have been a good guy or Lily wouldn't have loved him. We o..."This is the truth. Its really hard to come to any real conclusions about James, because we really know so little of him as opposed to Snape.
I think Snape in the books is possibly one of the most interesting characters, even though he is a totally unlikeable person. Certainly more interesting that the fairly one-dementional James Potter (although in all fairness Lily is even more one-dimentional).
As far as the better person... despite the limited information available I think I have to go with James. While he was arrogant and a bully as shown in Snapes Worst Memory, he must have grown up or Lily would never have fallen in love with him. All the people who knew the adult James (Dumbledore, McGonnagal, Mad-Eye, Sirius and Remus) seemed to think very highly of him. In the end, he sacrified his life trying to protect Harry and Lily just as much as Lily sacrified her's for Harry.
Snape, on the other hand, while he was brave, was also petty, vindictive and cruel. While he may have done a lot to safeguard Harry and in the end help him defeate Voldemort, it seemed to me he did it for less than altruistic reasons. He first went to Dumbledore because he wanted to protect someone he was obsessed with, not because it was the right thing to do. He worked to protect Harry not because he cared for him or it was the right thing to do, he did it because he owed James a life-debt. He opposed Voldemort not because he was evil, but because he killed the only person Snape ever cared about.
Hina wrote: "Guys, part of the reason why Snape had death eater friends was that he himself was interested in the Dark Arts. Yes his family was abusive or whatever but it doesn't mean Snape had to become a Deat..."But Lily left him. Had she stayed with him and been more understanding then he probably wouldn't have gone with the Death Eaters. Losing Lily was like the last straw for him, if Lily couldn't help him then who could?
I love them both! I ship Jily and not Snily but that doesn't mean that I hate Snape! I love Snape! But I also love James so I don't know
I think one reason I would definitely choose Snape is because he shows a lot I like in guys. Someone who thinks more (more introspective and thoughtful), a loner (I adore loners), and someone who loves deeply. I would NEVER choose someone like James. I view him as the kind of guy who lives in the moment, isn't very deep (when it comes to the way he thinks), cocky, etc.
Honestly, if I'd been Lily I would have melted with forgiveness when he slept outside the Gryffindor room! Honestly, sleeping on the floor outside the room is what I call caring.
It's an interesting conflict. On the one hand, James starts out a jerk but seems to become better later on (likely because of Lily). On the other hand, Snape starts out with nothing but hate to show, yet by the end it's proven that behind his anger there was love. In that way, I would almost think James and Snape equals- they both start out for the worse but die as men hopefully changed for the better. In another way, however, the causes for James and Snape's similarities differentiate greatly from one another. James was popular, which made him prideful. Snape was despised, which made him resentful. By the end, James is humbled.
By the end, so is Snape.
I personally feel more for Snape than for James, but then again it seems to be human nature to defend the underdog. James's son was destined for greatness, which in a way made James destined for greatness as well. Snape, however, wasn't destined for anything...
...That's what makes him great.
By the end, so is Snape.
I personally feel more for Snape than for James, but then again it seems to be human nature to defend the underdog. James's son was destined for greatness, which in a way made James destined for greatness as well. Snape, however, wasn't destined for anything...
...That's what makes him great.
I think people over-romanticise Snape. Yes, he was a brave man to double cross Voldemort, yes he saved Harry more than once, and yes, he contributed to the eventual defeat of Voldemort. He also had a crummy childhood (so did Harry and Sirius), and was bullied at school (so was Harry).He was also a petty, mean-spirited and vindictive man. He hated Harry for things that his father did. He tried to get Sirius killed and revealed Remus secret, causing him to lose his job as teacher. He had an unheathy facination with Dark Magic.
James was a prat as a school boy, but all the indications are he matured and became a better person (as indicated by the fact that Lily eventually married him and both Sirius and Remus said so). In the end he died to protect his wife and child.
So, who's better? Both risked their lives opposing Voldemort (James "thrice defied him" after all), both tried to protect Lily and Harry, and both died in the end doing that.
To be fair, I think that there should be two questions to this, because there has been a similar struggle in another series which I'm not going to talk about because of spoilers: who's the better man, and who's the better man for Lily?Snape, I feel, is a tough character to completely understand, so I give props to J.K. Rowling for creating him. He's had so many struggles, like a lot of characters, but it's the fact that he let them change him, make him turn bitter is what's sad about Snape. I feel as though Lily and Snape's friendship was falling apart at the seems. When he called her a mudblood, he crossed a line that was bound to be crossed by one of them. He did still love her, but they were never meant to be more than friends who drifted apart. They just didn't see eye-to-eye anymore. While Lily did make Snape a better man, neither of them were able to change slightly for the other.
While James and Lily were definitely not friends, did he ever call her a hurtful name? No. While James was kind of a douche, did he grow out of it? Yes. Did they have a successful relationship? Yes. So while some people think that James only married Lily for her looks, what did Lily only marry James for?
So, for me, James was the better man, and better with Lily, though Snape came at a very close second, if either of them tried to see eye-to-eye.
What I would like to know, why Lily didnt forgive Snape for calling her mudblood? I know it was horrible and all, but if she was truly his friend, wouldnt she be able to forgive him eventually? I mean the main trio also said some nasty things to each other over the years, but they eventually got over it.
Also I agree that we dont have enough information on James to make proper comparison.
Snape was horrible person at times, yes, but in the end he did and was doing right thing. And he got nothing in return. He dedicated his life for a woman who not only didnt love him, but also gave up on him.
I say, James was a good person but Severus was extraordinary person. And I only say this, because I just dont have enough info on James to call him otherwise.
Veronika wrote: "What I would like to know, why Lily didnt forgive Snape for calling her mudblood? I know it was horrible and all, but if she was truly his friend, wouldnt she be able to forgive him eventually? I..."
I think the name calling was just the last straw. Even before that Snape was hanging around with Death Eaters and future Death Eaters, he had an unhealthy facination with the Dark Arts, and he was buying into the pure blood propaganda. He and Lily had probably been drifting apart for a while, and the name calling was just the final step in that process. It was Lily's wake up call that the young Severus she had been friends with was gone.
Veronika wrote: "What I would like to know, why Lily didnt forgive Snape for calling her mudblood? I know it was horrible and all, but if she was truly his friend, wouldnt she be able to forgive him eventually? I..."
I find it rather disgusting that she didn't forgive him. If I'd been her, I would've; especially if he'd been sleeping outside the common room of all things! But she just, gave up on him... and she could have changed his life around if she had tried hard enough.
But I understand that it was the "last straw". My ex left me one time and I was devastated and then he came back... but after that second time he left me for someone else. I will never again think that I can feel something romantically for him. But I still care about him and love him as a friend. I actually have done something for him in the last few months that has changed his life (he had some rather severe depression) and he doesn't even know! I don't hold grudges, and I cannot hate someone I once felt deeply about. If I have the chance to change a life, I do it, because I will ALWAYS care. I'm almost rather surprised at Lily; it seems rather out of character.
Also, people seem to turn this discussion into, who's the better man? That's not the question. It's who you like better as a person, and for me, it's Snape.
Michael wrote:I think the name calling was just the last straw.I can understand that, however, it then means, he was only good enough for her when she didn't have any friends.
Hannah wrote: "I find it rather disgusting that she didn't forgive him."
I wouldn't call it disgusting, but I agree it is out of character.
Veronika wrote: "Michael wrote:I think the name calling was just the last straw.I can understand that, however, it then means, he was only good enough for her when she didn't have any friends.
Hannah wrote: "I f..."
Lol, I don't mean gross. I just mean it disgusts me.
Veronika wrote: "Michael wrote:I think the name calling was just the last straw.I can understand that, however, it then means, he was only good enough for her when she didn't have any friends. "
No, it means he was only good enough for her when he was *good*. We only "see" the name calling scene in the books, we don't see the gradual desent into evil (and in the books, Dark Magic *is* evil) that preceeded it.
In real life, if my best friend started hanging around with criminals and racists, started delving into satanism, and would not listen to me when I tried to tell them they were ruinining their life, at some point I'd have to stop being their friend.
I would find it out of character if Lily had stayed his friend, or forgiven him, unless he did a complete and very obvious turn around in his life and gave up on Death Eaters and Dark Magic.
Michael wrote: "I think people over-romanticise Snape. Yes, he was a brave man to double cross Voldemort, yes he saved Harry more than once, and yes, he contributed to the eventual defeat of Voldemort. He also h..."
To some extent, I definitely agree with you on this point. It seems as though people keep focusing on "shipping", or otherwise scrutinizing the romantic aspects of various fictional works. I've seen antagonism ignored often in favor of how cute this one character is with this other character.
I believe that something similar tends to be at work with discussions concerning Snape. On the other hand, there are those who aren't drawn into the one-sided romance and instead argue that Snape was a deep character- too deep for any sense of judgement. I personally never thought that Snape held much depth. He bore the misfortune of having his love triangle reduced to a single person among two corpses, and he decided to walk a path between both sides of a world-wide conflict as a result.
Since there's slightly more dedication to Snape than James as far as the story goes, this makes James something of an enigma; a bully as a youth, yet a gentlemen as an adult. This lack of story seems familiar with Lily and Harry also... but then that's getting off topic.
To some extent, I definitely agree with you on this point. It seems as though people keep focusing on "shipping", or otherwise scrutinizing the romantic aspects of various fictional works. I've seen antagonism ignored often in favor of how cute this one character is with this other character.
I believe that something similar tends to be at work with discussions concerning Snape. On the other hand, there are those who aren't drawn into the one-sided romance and instead argue that Snape was a deep character- too deep for any sense of judgement. I personally never thought that Snape held much depth. He bore the misfortune of having his love triangle reduced to a single person among two corpses, and he decided to walk a path between both sides of a world-wide conflict as a result.
Since there's slightly more dedication to Snape than James as far as the story goes, this makes James something of an enigma; a bully as a youth, yet a gentlemen as an adult. This lack of story seems familiar with Lily and Harry also... but then that's getting off topic.
Ria wrote: "James changed himself for Lily, Snape didn't.
What do you say to that?"
I doubt Snape would have felt compelled to mend his flaws at any point, since Lily was never particularly forgiving of his failures.
Upon further consideration of Snape's character, I think his particularly noteworthy attribute is that he was loyal to good people, and that despite his own conflicts he endured until his death. It's not much, but it's more than can be said for quite a few death eaters.
What do you say to that?"
I doubt Snape would have felt compelled to mend his flaws at any point, since Lily was never particularly forgiving of his failures.
Upon further consideration of Snape's character, I think his particularly noteworthy attribute is that he was loyal to good people, and that despite his own conflicts he endured until his death. It's not much, but it's more than can be said for quite a few death eaters.
Ria wrote: "James changed himself for Lily, Snape didn't.What do you say to that?"
Lily gave up on him. That's the reason he didn't change for her. I believe she could have helped him out if she'd tried, knowing what he'd do for her.
But he simply gave up because she kicked him out. I will go as far to say that Snape was abused sexually by James in that one memory. He was shown as sexually nothing and as undesirable as you can possibly get and mudblood just slipped out... which is understandable since the only people that truly accepted him and were nice to him always used this language. James was never seen as sexually nothing; he was the most popular boy at school and a Quidditch star; Snape was a skinny, smart (or nerdy) boy who was only degraded and degraded even more so when James did that evil deed. James was loved (even adored, as Rowling says) and was most popular and he bullies the person who needs it the least. The boy who wasn't loved or adored.
You say he changed. Maybe he did. But even after he changed and stopped bullying, he still bullied Snape. Why? Simply because he didn't like him; for no reason at all! Him, the one with all the more privileges and adoration. Disgusting, I say.
I believe Snape is a better person. I just felt like Snape's inner character shined through in the series and you just have to feel sorry for him. For all you know, James might of been really horrible on the inside.
Too true.Snape didn't care one bit for Harry.It was always Lily.And we don't know as much about James as we do about Snape.Still I think James did mature into a very nice person.Also all Snape has on his side was that he loved Lily truly and that his rough side was due to his bad childhood(which i am sry for) but that doesn't excuse his otherwise evil behaviour.
If that is too much then Sorry Snape!
Hina wrote: "Avada Kedavra! wrote: "I think Lily forgave Snape inside because she knew he was better than that. I do think he is the bravest man Harry knew because he saved an innocent child: Draco. The Elder W..."Are we forgetting James and lily welcomed a werewolf, a social outcast and welcomed someone kicked out of the black family into their home
The fact that James was loved and Snape was not in his childhood makes no difference. Are we saying that if Snape had been loved and James hated that the bullying was justified? Background = reason but not justification. What IS relevant is how each developed:James was a bully in school, but when he grew up and saw the world and how Voldemort was overturning it, he rose to the challenge and joined the Order of the Phoenix to fight him. James Potter died for wizardkind. He died for muggles. Why? Harry was the seemingly only chance the wizarding world had to defeat the dark lord. How is that because of his bullying behavior in his youth that we overlook this, say he was arrogant, selfish, and cruel? Snape, who understood what was happening in the world as much as James did and chose to join the murderers, is not better. Plus, Lily and James had no responsibility towards Snape to "help him recover." People make their own choices.
Snape wasn't some tiny child with cotton in his ears: he knew people were dying. He knew muggles were being killed for sport. He knew muggle borns like the woman he loved were being prejudiced against. But he chose to join the death eaters. No one forced him; It was his philosophy because he spent time with the Slytherins, but he was a grown man. And he saw what was going on, and he should have known better, as James did. But he turned to the dark side.
The good and bad just don't cancel out like that, no matter if Snape turned back or not (at which point he tormented kids in his enemy house). James was a good man, and Snape was something in between who made a lot of wrong choices when he knew he was making them.
Severus Snape is an intriguing character, and James Potter is certainly a fundamental character to not only Harry's arc, but Sirius, Remus, and Snape's as well. Both were fascinating men who greatly enriched the story. However, they were both also utter and complete assholes.For Snape, I sympathize with him because of the relentless bullying he suffered from (more on that later) but just because someone treats you like dirt doesn't give you the excuse to torment children in turn. He made Neville miserable for five years, openly mocked Hermione for everything from her teeth to her eagerness in class, and took out his anger with James on his eleven-year-old son who knew nothing of their past together (not to mention that, knowing Harry, he probably would have liked Snape if he had remained courteous, as he liked most of his other professors). He played favorites with Slytherins the same way Dumbledore played favorites with Gryffindors (though why he liked Draco so much is a mystery) and was generally a terrible teacher, albeit a brilliant one. Worst of all, there's no indication that he ever realized that being a Death Eater was morally wrong. Unlike, say, Regulus Black, who appeared to have changed allegiances due to moral objections and an urge to protect his family, Snape only turned against Voldemort once Lily was threatened (hell, even Draco seems to have had moral objections to the Death Eaters, and Lord knows he was no sweetheart). He tried to convince Voldemort to kill Harry and James instead, which, aside from being infanticide, is incredibly selfish. His love for Lily was an obsessive one, and his years of being Harry's guardian were done in bitterness, with little regard for the boy himself. And as for what he said to Lily--listen, it was terrible, but let's consider that he was also in a state of humiliation and fury (as Rowling points out) and only got out of being hoisted upside because someone else had to force James to stop. That doesn't mean what he said was right, but I don't find it unforgivable, as he did sincerely apologize for it afterwards. His general bigotry, however, is a damning and ugly aspect of his personality. If there is one thing in particular that I commend Snape for, though, it is that he appears to genuinely respect and care for Dumbledore, even if he isn't obvious about it.
And now on to James. Much like Sirius (whom I'll probably discuss some other time), James had a ridiculously inflated ego, and was a cruel and relentless bully, plain and simple. J.K. Rowling would not have shown us a scene of him acting this way if we weren't supposed to come to this conclusion, and there's something incredible about the way that some people in the fandom try to claim that this was a one-time event that was somehow instigated by Snape. There are characters that claim James changed drastically a year or two later, but keep in mind that these characters are Sirius, who hates Snape and has highly questionable judgement, and Lupin, who was a lifelong friend of James and wanted to see the best in him. Here's the thing: people do change, but I've yet to see anyone gradually change in such a drastic way in that little amount of time. Sirius clearly still has a dark side, and given his compatibility with James, I find it extremely hard to believe that James had really changed much in the years leading up to his death (plus, in that short story Rowling published years ago, which took place after graduation, he still came across as a snotty brat then as well). Sure, he was good to Lily, but remember that he also happened to love Lily. James was canonically always good to the people he loved--it's the rest of the world that concerns me here. By saving Snape, it was clear that he was at least opposed to murder, but his friendliness was exclusive and elitist. Plus, keep in mind, James was long dead by the time the series began. We as human beings have a knack for being more forgiving to the people we've lost than the ones who are still around to defend themselves.
Snape was a great character and an integral part of the story. He was also very brave, constantly risking torture and death in his role as a double agent. He was also petty, hateful, jealous and mean spirited. he was a complex and interesting character but not a very nice person.
Autumn wrote: "Severus Snape is an intriguing character, and James Potter is certainly a fundamental character to not only Harry's arc, but Sirius, Remus, and Snape's as well. Both were fascinating men who greatl..."But consider Minerva McGonagall, who taught at Hogwarts for 29 or so years by the fifth one. She clearly admired and liked the Potters. She's not one to be a star-struck follower, especially since she most likely taught Lily and James and the Marauders.
Also consider Hagrid, most likely an outcast like Neville. He genuinely liked James even though one would assume a popular kid would shun those less cool.
My point is that there are indeed reliable sources that praise James. Did he change much? I don't think he got any less reckless or arrogant, but I do think he tamed it and stopped letting it dominate his relationships with other people, especially since he joined the Order of the Phoenix right after school. He didn't let his bad traits get in the way of fighting Voldemort/Death Eaters.
I do see your point, Ruby, but at the same time, McGonagall and Hagrid never said anything against Snape prior to Dumbledore's death, either. Like I said, James wasn't evil: he cared about his family and his friends, and had many positive attributes. And what you say is true; he did fight Voldemort and did all he could to protect the ones he cared about. But his treatment of Snape--and apparently other people, as well--was unbelievably cruel (he cast a curse on Snape that almost choked him to death without batting an eye). You're free to interpret his character differently than I do, but I'm simply not convinced that he changed as drastically as his friends claim he did, and just like how Snape's miserable childhood doesn't excuse his mistreatment of the numerous students he's bullied over the years, James compassion for his friends doesn't excuse his cruelty either.
I think James was better.Okay,so James was a bully in his teens ,but he grew out of it.Lily learned to love him only after he stopped being an "arrogant toerag".He joined the Order of the Phoenix,fought to save others from Voldemort and his cronies,and eventually gave his life to protect his wife and son.On the other hand,Snape was intensely attracted to the Dark Arts in his school years itself.A man is known by the company he keeps.And let's take a look at Snape's company-Avery ,Mulciber,and others who'd eventually become Death Eaters.Their idea of humour,according to Lily,was plain evil.James was never attracted to the Dark Arts.People get dewy eyed over Snape's "undying:" love for Lily.While I do think that his love is one of the only redeeming qualities about him,i can't forget how he requested Voldemort to spare Lily in exchange for her son's life.Is that really true love?If he truly loved and respected her ,would he have joined a band of people who liked to kill and torture Muggleborns?He only realized his mistake after Voldemort killed her.What I detest most about Snape is his treatment of Neville.He inflicted so much terror upon the poor innocent child so as to become his Boggart.What gives Snape the right to humuliate and mentally torture a child for no fault of his?What gived him the right to threaten to poison Neville's pet toad?Because he's a Gryffindor?Because he's shy and clumsy?Snape's brand of bullying is far worse than James'.James,as a teenager,bullied a boy of his own age who never missed an opportunity to hex him back either.And Snape ,as an adult with full knowledge of right and wrong,bullied a child who was incapable of defending himself.No matter how much james hated Snape,he saved his life at the Shrieking Shack.And let's not forget how rude Snape was to Hermione,who was nothing but respectful to her teachers.When Draco's curse caused her teeth to grow beyond normal,Snape says"I see no difference"!And he was rude to her and Ron because they were the best friends of the son of the man whom he hated.Some people say that Snape turned bitter because he had an unhappy childhood.So did Harry and Sirius.Did Harry vent his frustation by being horribl to Muggles?He also tried to oust Lupin from the one place in the world where he felt safe and happy.Why?Because he was James' friend!Yes,i can definitely see why Snape is the better man!
Stacy wrote: "I think it is hard to compare the two, becuase we know so much about Snape, and so little about James Potter. All I know is that he had to have been a good guy or Lily wouldn't have loved him. We o..."I agree
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Lily did have friends in her school days, Alice Longbottom (nèe Prewett) was her friend, so was Mary MacDonal..."
How could you say she hated him? She was hurt by it. Here was her first best friend from the magic world and I'm sure she did care about him... But he hurt her by calling her that and hanging out with questionable people and she decided to just walked away. Sometimes people walk away because they are hurt, not because they hate. Hate is a very strong word... For example, I have an ex and though I get angry at the thought of him at times, I don't hate him; deep down I still care... not feel the same way, of course... but care.