Valar Morghulis--Valar Dohaeris discussion
A Song of Ice and Fire
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Theories & Speculations: SPOILERS for all books
Well to start out, I'd like to hear in full your Varys theory!
ALRIGHT. I love me some theories.My favorites:
Rhaegar and Lyanna are Jon's parents.
Brandon Stark was the man Ashara Dayne loved.
Sandor Clegane is alive and well at the monastery.
Jon is not dead. OR if he is, will be returned via Melisandre/R'hllor.
Aegon is the false dragon referenced in Dany's prophecy from the House of the Undying.
I think the Three Eyed Crow teaching Bran is Brynden Rivers - aka Bloodraven a bastard son of Aegon IV.
Dany could be Azor Ahai - her dragons are Lightbringer. I'm not sure if I believe this one yet, but I like the interpretation.
SPOILERS!!!!! (I know, I don't have to mark it, but I just feel better at least acknowledging it a little...hehe)
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Glad you asked.Proceed with caution. You've been warned.
I have to give credit to Jax though, and hopefully she'll join and chime in soon. She started this theory, but once she did my brain started running.
The theory is that Varys is a Targaryen.
We all know he's devious and has secrets up the wazoo, but there are little signs that point to this being true.
1. He's bald. That doesn't mean anything, unless he's trying to hide a certain hair color.
2. He was an adviser to Aerys. One that was mentioned as being completely trusted and very close to the King. Aerys was Mad. Who would he completely trust when he was paranoid about usurpers?
3. Varys was the mastermind behind the schemes of hiding Viserys and Dany, as well as Aegon. He is a contact of Illyrio to that end.
4. How did Ser Barristan just happen to find Dany? Illyrio sent him. It was Joffrey that kicked Barristan off the Kingsguard, but could Varys have whispered the suggestion?
5. Varys came from over the sea. At some point he must have hooked up with Illyrio. Does he also have contacts with the Golden Company and the exiled Blackfyres? Or IS he an exled Blackfyre?
6. Is he a eunuch? I mean, who checked? It is said many times that enuchs are disregarded as not-men. Nobody suspects a eunuch of anything. Even knowing that he's the Spider, the others underestimate him.
7. He sent Ser Jorah Mormont to spy on Dany. Robert probably ordered him to send a spy, so why did Varys sent Jorah? Did he have some insight that Jorah would spy, yet would protect Dany? Or was that just lucky?
8. Varys just sounds/looks like a Targaryen name. He probably wouldn't be obvious though.
9. Aerys was mad. And with the rebellion, someone had the foresight to switch Aegon (if that story is true) before they were captured. Though baby switching seems to be a common policy in these books. Regardless, Viserys and the pregnant Queen were whisked away in time to avoid capture.
So who was he if this is correct? Too old to be a son of Rhaegar. So maybe a bastard son or a brother of Aerys? Nobody knows how old he is either. I wonder if the face powder conceals his age.
I bet Aemon knew what the deal was. If there was a deal.
OOOOOO....very very interesting Chris!
OOOOOO.....man, if GRRM doesn't answer all these questions in the final book, I hope writes a tell all after he's done explaining everything...hahaha (That would take another 50 books...LOL!)
OOOOOO.....man, if GRRM doesn't answer all these questions in the final book, I hope writes a tell all after he's done explaining everything...hahaha (That would take another 50 books...LOL!)
Chris wrote: "Glad you asked.Proceed with caution. You've been warned.
I have to give credit to Jax though, and hopefully she'll join and chime in soon. She started this theory, but once she did my brain sta..."
Interesting idea. I'm going to have to ponder this and then decide. I love the new ideas other people have about the series!
Jessie (.bibliophile. .anonymous.) wrote: "ALRIGHT. I love me some theories.My favorites:
Rhaegar and Lyanna are Jon's parents.
Brandon Stark was the man Ashara Dayne loved.
Sandor Clegane is alive and well at the monastery.
Jon is no..."
OOOoooooooOOOOO! Those are some good ones, Jessie!
The only ones I not sure about are the Clegane one, and the three eyed crow one. But I like those ones! I just hadn't considered them.
I do have a question about Gregor Clegane.Most people assume that he is, in one form or another, Robert Strong.
But if that's true, here's what I want to know:
Who's head was in the box?
Dawn wrote: "Jessie (.bibliophile. .anonymous.) wrote: "ALRIGHT. I love me some theories.My favorites:
Rhaegar and Lyanna are Jon's parents.
Brandon Stark was the man Ashara Dayne loved.
Sandor Clegane is a..."
I think Sandor is alive because it is stated, "The Hound died." And later, a remarkably tall man with a hidden face is mentioned at the monastery.
Sandor is a favorite of mine, so even though the evidence is thin I like to believe in this one.
And for 3 Eyed Crow (from Ice and Fire wiki):
"An albino, Brynden had milk white skin, long white hair, and red eyes. He had a red birthmark that extended from his throat up to his right cheek. Some thought that it resembled a bird.[3] Brynden was not as tall or muscular as his half-brothers. He typically wore the colors of "blood and smoke", with smoke being a dark grey that was mottled and streaked with black. Because his skin was sensitive to light, he usually went about cloaked and hooded. He lost an eye during the Blackfyre Rebellion and rarely covered the empty socket with a patch. He wore his white hair straight and to his shoulders, with the front brushed forward to cover his missing eye."
He was also sent to the Wall around 233 AL, and was rumored to be a sorcerer. http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/...
Jessie (.bibliophile. .anonymous.) wrote: "And later, a remarkably tall man with a hidden face is mentioned at the monastery.."Do you remember where this was said? I'd like to go back and explore this idea. I hope you're right, too. I'm definitely on Team Sandor.
Chris wrote: "Jessie (.bibliophile. .anonymous.) wrote: "And later, a remarkably tall man with a hidden face is mentioned at the monastery.."Do you remember where this was said? I'd like to go back and explore..."
I've gotta go dig out AFFC. I'll find it and post the page.
:)
AFFC, P.463"..a lichyard where a Brother bigger than Brienne was struggling to dig a grave. From the way he moved it was plain to see he was lame.."
Sandor had a leg wound, and not many people are bigger than Brienne.
Also, the Dog of the Monastery likes the digger, and follows him.
Brienne, p. 470 "Sandor Clegane is dead."
"He is at rest," The Elder Brother paused.
Awesome. Nice catch, and I'm disappointed in myself for missing it.
Chris wrote: "Awesome. Nice catch, and I'm disappointed in myself for missing it."Yeah, the evidence is slight but I love him so I was on watch for it :D
Chris, I think your theory on Varys is spot on. It was something I thought about last night when I finished because he certainly has a vested interest in Danys & Aegon with no explanation other than loyalty. The only reason to remain that loyal would be through blood ties. Also it has been noted that Varys is great with disguises and his voice changes...I think the voice thing happened twice with the last note being in the epilogue where Kevan noted that Varys voice was deeper. So it would make total sense if he wasn't a eunuch.
Yes, Jackie. That loyalty was something else I wondered about. Greed isn't his motivation, as he'd be better off with the Lannister alliance or maybe that of Braavos if all he wanted was coin. He certainly had plenty of influence on the Small Council.And what besides family ties brings about a loyalty that lasts that many years, and that deeply?
I had wondered how much Varys had to do with bringing Ned down from Winterfell. Did he instigate the murder of Jon Arryn just because he knew that Robert would ask Ned, and that Ned would protest an assassination of Dany?
When Ned asked him who he was loyal to, Varys said "The Realm". If he was a Targaryen, wouldn't it stand to reason that his deep belief in the fact that Targaryen rule is best for the Realm?
He didn't save Ned, so he must not have wanted Stark rule. I wonder now too if he hadn't whispered something in Joff's ear to behead Stark, since Cersei didn't even know Joff was going to do that. Ned's purpose was complete at that point. But Varys probably felt that Ned would have opposed Targaryens still, so he had to go. Just maybe.
He did save Tyrion though. And sent him to Illyrio, who sent him to Dany (or tried to). So they must think that Tyrion will work out for her interest at some point.
Chris wrote: "Yes, Jackie. That loyalty was something else I wondered about. Greed isn't his motivation, as he'd be better off with the Lannister alliance or maybe that of Braavos if all he wanted was coin. He c..."He also might not have saved Ned because he would be the immediate suspect. He's a smart man, not a blithely honorable one. Self-preservation, especially if he is Targaryen, will be key to everything he does.
Oh I love this section. I especially love Jessie's that Sandor is still alive and living as a monk. That fits for so many reasons.
Chris wrote: "Glad you asked.Proceed with caution. You've been warned.
I have to give credit to Jax though, and hopefully she'll join and chime in soon. She started this theory, but once she did my brain sta..."
Heh, thanks for the credit! Although about Varys not saving Ned, I dont think he could, no one knew that the little imbred Joffrey freak was gonna cut off his head...unless i missed something.
I also thought that Sandor is now a monk, maybe he'll come back and save his beloved Sansa ;)
I think that Septa Lemore is Ashara Dayne, not dead after all, since they never found the body, so ...
Ooooo! I never thought about the Ashara Dayne one! That's good!
Just what the series needs, another faked death.
There can never be too many fake outs! :P
On second thought, there probably can be too many...
Jax wrote: "Chris wrote: "Glad you asked.Proceed with caution. You've been warned.
I have to give credit to Jax though, and hopefully she'll join and chime in soon. She started this theory, but once she di..."
Lol I remember this debate :D
On second thought their can be too many... Eddard Starks death was faked.
I never saw his head roll... did you? I also never actually saw Bran hit the ground... and as far as Tyrion goes, I never saw him actually... no wait. Yes, I did.
Are we absolutely sure that Tyrion is really short?
... or is everyone else really, really tall?
Chris wrote: "I do have a question about Gregor Clegane.Most people assume that he is, in one form or another, Robert Strong.
But if that's true, here's what I want to know:
Who's head was in the box?"
Probably Gregor Clegane's.
Robert Strong has never been seen without his helmet on... nor has he been seen consuming food or liquid. I wonder why~?
I don't have any theories at the moment, although I would like to know what you guys think will happen to Arya? I would also like to know how you think GRRM will explain longer seasons, as he has said that all of that shall be explained.
I have this little scenario in my head where Arya eventually returns to Westeros as a fully trained Faceless Man and runs in with Sansa, still masquerading as Alayne Stone. It'd be a really sweet parallel... but I can't fathom how Arya would get to that point. I'd like her to eventually travel to Westeros again, but this time on a mission, though.
I think if the 5 year gap between book 3 and 4 had happened Arya would've gone back to Westeros as a faceless man/dead-ringer for Lyanna. Without the 5 year gap, this gets trickier. I can't quite remember how old Arya is in the books by now, 11-12? I'm not sure if there is enough time for her to train long enough to become one.
I see Little Finger sitting the Iron Throne in the next book. The hold on the throne has never been weaker, and he's promised the Eyrie he would be gone in a year. He's been scheming since book 1. I mean, he framed Cersei and Jaime for the attempt of Bran's life which basically caused all of the trouble. And no one has caught him! If he isn't winning the game of thrones, I don't know who is. (I also expect Dany to overthrow him ultimately)
Wasn't it Tyrion that Littlefinger tried to frame for the attempt on Bran's life? I kind of thought something more would happen with Gendry, Robert's bastard, after Arya spent so much time with him...
Also think that Aegon, Jon, and Dany are the "three heads" of the dragon, and think they need to discover one another and get together in the future books!
Tobi wrote: "Wasn't it Tyrion that Littlefinger tried to frame for the attempt on Bran's life? I kind of thought something more would happen with Gendry, Robert's bastard, after Arya spent so much time with h..."
Yes, you're right; he did frame Tyrion. I misspoke. It did still accomplish wedging suspicion between Starks and Lannisters.
I'm not too sure about Jon being one of the "three heads. I'm pretty sure you have to have the blood of the dragon to ride them, which Jon does not have because he burnt his hand saving Mormont from the wight. If Aegon is who he claims to be, then I could see him being a head. I think Ben Plumm might have the blood of the dragon in him because the dragons are always friendly to him and Tyrion knows why.
I think Gendry's story is pretty much finished. His main purpose was to cause conflict and bring Cersei's men to Arya.
@Micheal - The burning thing has been addressed by Martin. Dany can be burnt along with any and all other Targaryen's. She was not burnt during the birth of her dragons due to the use of Blood Magic and the perfect timing with the comet. If Jon Snow turns out to be Rhaegar's son (not a favorite theory of mine, albeit, perfectly legitimate and well supported) he could in turn ride dragons. However speaking of Gendry - he is a third character who can surely ride dragons as well. He is the great grandson of a Tagaryen, Robert Baratheon used this as part of the reasoning to take the Iron Throne. He was also of Dragon's Blood.
Since this is a theories page (oh yah, I'm new to this group btw, not new to these books though LOL - and HI ALL!) I have a theory of my own about Gendry. I always felt he simply must have more part in the story as well. If he was simply a device to lead the Kings Men to Arya and Ned to the discovery of Cersei and Jaime's infedility, then why flesh him out so much? Why make him so well fitted with Arya? Why discuss his mother and how he became apprenticed to Tobho Mott, why bring him back around when Brienne needs someone to save her? - just doesn't make sense in my mind.
After thinking this out a bit, I think he's Ashara Dayne's bastard and that Robert is the one who defiled her at Harrenhal. If this is so, Gendry's parents would both be highranking enough to merit his legitimization, making him the true heir to Robert Baratheon's throne. Outside of this, it would put him in the running to be the weilder of the greatsword Dawn which has yet to make its appearance in the series, yet seems to bear mention in almost every installment.
Robert's triumph and killing of Rhaegar at the Trident and Elia's murder actually also matches the timeline for Ashara comitting suicide. Since Ashara was the handmaiden to Elia until her (ashara's) pregnancy, as well as the fact her brother was best friends with Rhaegar - I think it stands to argue she may have killed herself not in remorse for Ned killing her brother, but in remorse of having a child with a man who led the battle that destroyed nearly everyone she loved.
What if bran takes Jon snow's body.....
I think the body is in jeopardy more than Jon's consciousness. I see Jon warging into someone else's body. But I like that your idea would bring Bran back into the story in a better way than we have now.
Okay I've prepared myself for the flogging I might recieve putting this out here, but I mentioned it on another goodreads ASOIAF forum and it got some interesting replies.I've been trying to think of a definite theory buster, but I just can't come up with one, the more research I put into it the more it seems to support the possibility. So I thought I get some more fans involved.
I know the main theory for Jon's parents is Lyanna and Rhaegar, but I read a partially developed theory that I've since explored and expanded, that Jon's parent's are actually Lyanna and Brandon (her own brother)
I thought it might not fit the timeline, but I think it actually might.
Brandon dies 282 AL, Jon is born 283 AL - so here is my question if anyone knows - how does time, say months and weeks and years, work in ASOIAF? Are we still looking at 12 months to a year?
This could help me determine the possibility better.
In way of support for this theory -
Jon is markedly Stark featured, more Stark in appearance than any of the other children, Arya comes closest.
Incest is known to occur within the story and even in families who would be seen as culturally abject to the idea. (i.e. Lannisters)
Lyanna and Brandon were both possessed of Wolf's Blood.
Ned promises to keep a secret for Lyanna he feels he can never tell anyone, including his greif stricken wife who is clearly miserable at the fact he's brought home a bastard. (I think incest is something I would keep under wraps)
Brandon is revealed to be something of a sexual deviant in DWD
Lyanna and Brandon are said to have rode horses together often and alone.
Brandon becomes exponentially angry at Lyanna's abduction, despite the fact she is abducted by the Crown Prince.
Ned is rather understanding of Jaime and Cersei's relationship, even warning them so they may escape Robert's wrath. He's never mad about the incest, he's mad about the lies to Robert.
I could probably go on, but this usually works a lot better in debate format.
I'm torn between thinking maybe they had a consenting relationship and maybe Brandon just raped Lyanna before she married Robert, similar to Viserys attempt to do the same to Dany before her wedding to Kahl Drogo...
Hmm, I don't know, it sounds like a very unconvincing theory to me.Though both Jon and Robb were in 283 AL, Robb is older than Jon. that means he was conceived before Jon and Robb wasn't conceived before Ned and Catelyn's marriage which was sometime after Brandon's death.
Ned could have promised to keep secret many things, it doesn't necessarily have to be that Jon is Brandon's child.
From what i read in DWTD, Brandon sounded more like a womanizer, womanizing and sexual deviancy are two very different things in my opinion.
And I don't see anything wrong with Brandon's getting very angry at Lyanna's abduction. She is his sister, of course he would get mad.
As for the incest thing, I don't know, like you said, it wasn't something unheard of in Westeros. Targaryens practiced it for centuries. So it's not very surprising to me that Ned didn't find incestuous relationships between Lannister twins very odd or got mad over it.
See, I thought that about Robb being older at first too, but than I read this while doing research (it's from Westeros.org)We know from this e-mail that Jon’s birth is 8-9 months prior to Daenerys’s, and that Daenerys is born almost precisely 9 months after the death of Rhaegar and the Sack of King’s Landing (I: 25). This would place Jon’s birth within one month, give or take, of the Sack. As we know the war lasts “close” to a year which is often just referred to as a “year” (I: 96, 233), suggesting 10-11 months is likelier than 9 months. Given this, his conception seems to have been between 1-3 months into the war. Interestingly, this contradicts suggestions from Catelyn and Ned that Jon was concieved some time after Robb’s conception (in itself an event taking place several months into the war), so either GRRM is mistaken or he has accidentally clarified a piece of information which was intended to be obfuscated in the series (I: 54, 92). Our own view is that the latter is the case, as GRRM is rather precise about the relative birthdates in a way that seems too absolute to be a random error.
Which seems to contradict the idea. If Lyanna discovered she was pregnant within 1 month of the war, that inevitably put conception before it ever started right?
I mean, I'm literally trying to disprove this theory and I keep stumbling across b.s. like this!!
(Agree, Ned could promise anything, it's not ridiculous for Brandon to get mad over his sister's abduction for any reason either, they're not the strongest points of the theory - they're not the strongest points of R+L either really, they're just points LOL)
Though when you read the email mentioned in that quote:
http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/E...
It says he may not have a perfect timeline and all that, which leads to even more confusion on that specific subject. *sigh*
It seems nearly impossible to tell who is older now! GRR. I've been trying to work this timeline too because I thought that was what would bust it down.
yes, Cat got pregnant on her wedding night... and since Robb is older than Jon, we know that Jon was conceived after Cat and Ned's wedding night, ergo after Brandon's death!This theory didn't have much teeth, but it's nice to see it so easily disproved
there are OODLES of clues that lead to Ned being Jon's uncle rather than his father... and Rhaegar being his father fits every bill. L + R = J
Tobi - read my above post, we must have been posting at the same time.Robb might not actually be older than Jon, infact, he probably isnt unless GRRM made a mistake in his calculations.
I couldn't open that e-mail link for some reasons. Well, it's all very complicated, but it was always said in the books that Robb is older than Jon. He was conceived on Ned and Cat's wedding night. But anyway, let's just say for the sake of argument that Jon is older than Robb and consider B+L=J theory.
So many things seem to be wrong with that theory that I don't know where to begin. Firstly, why is Lyanna pregnant with Brandon's child? especially right before the war begins? If they were having regular sex, she would probably drink moon tea or something to prevent the pregnancy because that would be totally awkward of her being suddenly pregnant with a child before ever marrying Robert or sleeping with him (there's no evidence that she and Robert had ever sex) So why all of a sudden did she become pregnant with Brandon's child?
Secondly, we know that Westerosi women especially highborn ladies usually preserve their virginity before marriage. Maybe it's not a strong argument cause there are ways of faking virginity but still I don't believe Lyanna would lose her virginity to her brother and marry Robert afterwards. And this idea of Lyanna being betrothed to Robert but having an affair with her brother goes against everything I respect about Starks. For all we know, Starks are honest and honorable folks.
And one more thing, if Lyanna was already pregnant when she ran away with Rhaegar, surely Rhaegar would notice it. I mean it would look suspicious if Lyanna's belly was huge during her early pregnancy and she gave birth before her time. I somehow don't think Rhaegar would take kindly to it, i mean, he goes into all this trouble for her and she turns out to be pregnant with another person's child.
Lyanna being pregnant with Brandon's child would also mean that she didn't go with Rhaegar willingly but was abducted instead, because why would she elope with Rhaegar when she was impregnated by her brother and was engaged to another man. And I just can't reconcile with the idea that Rhaegar would abduct any woman without their consent.
The word 'abduct' means to take away by force, it's always been called an abduction; never have I thought Lyanna went willingly. Why wouldn't Rhaegar take a woman without her consent? He was the king's son with all the entitlements that position would include such as taking a woman he wanted, they're known for instability, and he was already married. I don't see an honorable man here, sorry.
Viserys tells that alternate story that Rhaegar loved Lyanna but I ain't buying it: he wasn't there and he was a liar when it suited his delusions of grandeur. Selmy is the other one, a man who waffles in his loyalties is not exactly a reputable source either.
I don't think Lyanna had an affair and lovechild with her brother, but this going willingly with Rhaegar just muddies the water further.
Jackie ,throughout the whole series there's been only one person who spoke ill of Rhaegar and that's Robert. And I would never take Robert's word for anything. Even Ned, brother of the woman Rhaegar supposedly abducted, thinks respectfully of Rhaegar. He may be a king's son, but he never was a spoiled prince who would kidnap and rape a woman just because he felt like it.
The B+L=John theory actually makes a lot of sense when you think of why Ned would keep John's parentage a secret from Cat than the R+L= John. For R+L=J the only reason not to tell is to protect a Targ who is your sister's child. However for B+L=J Cat would have been destroyed to find out that her beloved Brandon was not the honorable man she loved and also would hate not only John Snow but the memory of the man she loved.
Jackie wrote: "I thought Ned's respect for Rhaegar was as a warrior, not necessarily as a man."Have you ever seen Ned show respect to Gregor Clegane because he's a great warrior? or Jaime Lannister? Oh, alright, maybe he respects and acknowledges that Jaime is a very skilled knight but only grudginly. And it doesn't stop him from resenting the Lannisters. So no, I don't see why Ned would respect a man who raped her sister just because he is a good fighter.
So here is where we can talk about those theories, guesses, brilliant insights, half-baked ideas, or plain shots in the dark.
On spoilers: It is assumed that people reading this thread have read all 5 books in the series. Anything is fair game in here, and does not have to be marked with spoiler tags. Continue reading at your own risk if you have not read all of the books.
I also felt like we needed a separate place to talk about these ideas in case of future spoilers. Future spoilers, you ask? Sure.
I mean, what if some of our half-baked guesses turn out to be correct?
Some readers might prefer to discover what happens as they read, without taking guesses into the possibilities. They might not want to see what someone else has deduced or guessed, because then they might have that idea in the back of their mind when the answers finally are revealed. So in a sense, it could act as a type of spoiler.
Anyway, this is the thread for free-for-all talk about what might happen. If you're one that doesn't want to go down that path, you've been fairly warned.
Last note, please make sure that posts in here have the "Add to my Update Feed" box (below) unchecked, so that spoilers aren't inadvertently spilled onto the mainstream.
Thank you and lets get speculating!