Valar Morghulis--Valar Dohaeris discussion
A Song of Ice and Fire
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Theories & Speculations: SPOILERS for all books
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Richard
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Sep 23, 2013 12:45PM
He's also on the wrong side of the wall for telling any tales.
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Bri Bri wrote: "I'm assuming that Benjin is cold hand in my previous statement."I thought this as well, I brought it up earlier in the thread but most think cold hands is older than Benjen altho I will stick to my gut & go with cold hands is benjen with perhaps the thoughts of some of the older starks in his head too
Battling from beyond the wall back south = Bran (very pivotal person IMO, even tho I find his POV eh..), Osha, cold hands, rickon (i'd love to know wassup with him), joyjen & sis, & Hodar is totally Hodar, etc...
For sure the Warg ability runs in the Stark bloodline. They have the blood of the first men on their veins. As Jon tells Ygritte at some point.
Maybe Jon becomes one of Danny's dragons!!!! Wooooooooohoooooooo! But seriously why isn't the Warg ability more focused on and why does it seem no one knows about it. I wonder if Ned ever skin changed. I have a feeling somehow that is going to make a huge appearance later.
Ned should have quit when he had ahead.
HA, I'm sure dead Ned & cut Cat will make a splendid couple lol
Remember that before the Dragons appearance MAGIC (Glass candles, Blood Magic, Wargs, etc.) was almost dead. Everything became just fairy tales. Everybody south of the wall forgot about it. (With the help of the Maesters who seem to be in a mission against magic)
Except of course North of the Wall and its surroundings, where the weird stuff was still active (White Walkers, Wargs, Giants, Greenseers)
Maybe, if Ned was still alive he could be developing some kind of Warg ability, the same for Sansa if she still had Lady. Bran is becoming a master, Arya is getting the grip of it and Jon is still discovering it.
Old Town hates magic because they really couldn't control it. No one can, not even Targaryens. I wouldn't want a dragon to get too close to the wall.
Thank u I always forget that magic was all but gone before our little dragon babies hatched. Still I do feel the Warg ability should be focused on more. Just wishful thinking since I'm a sucker for some good old fashioned abracadabra
Your right beg pardon let me rephrase. I wish that the wargs were a bigger focal point of the story. I think they are pretty neat.
Oh! OK :) Well for having a whole storyline about it (Bran) is enough. George doesn't seem to be part of the school of Sanderson or Rothfuss where magic is explain in a logical way (by the rules of the universe) He prefers the Tolkien kind of magic where details about it remain very obscure.
..... Is it possible he knows about Jon's real parents and he is the one who will tell jon?Yes, this is possible. Honestly, their are tons of possibilities for who could reveal any possible parentage. We only know that Ned didn't tell any of his immediate family (as in wife and children) nor any Baratheon or POV Lannister. That still leaves plenty of characters who have the potential to know either through direct witness or through being told by Ned, if you take the text in a literal sense that is.
And in the theory of R+L other people were suggested to have been present at the death of Lyanna. It says "they" took Lyanna's body from Ned, which implies more than one person. Not to mention, if Jon's birth were the cause of death, she surely had some sort of medical professional present.
Jon cannot be the King. He's still a bastard.
Amen to that.
Not to mention a black brother to boot.
Do anyone know how the Warg heritage passes on? I mean if Bran and Arya have the ability. Jon does as well even though he pushes it away. Does that mean it came thru Eddard Starks side?
It's suggested that it's past down from a person's parentsj. It's said in the books that one in a thousand men is born a warg, and one in a thousand wargs is born a greenseer. (which is what Brynden and Bran are)
My guess would be that the Stark bloodline, along with some of the wildling bloodlines at some point intermixed with Children of the Forest who posessed these abilities when the First Men arrived. (They're also the ancestors of Bran and the Wildlings for a bit more support)
As for Targaryen manifestations, they actually come from Valyria which is the root home of the opposite side of magic (the fire side) so that makes enough sense as it is. Magic died out primarily but has always remained active in the North (assumed due to whatever created the lore relating back to "The Great Other") and in Asshai which is the closest most people can get to Old Valyria, the assumed home of Rhllor, and the center of magic for people like Melisandre and Thoros.
But seriously why isn't the Warg ability more focused on and why does it seem no one knows about it
It's a worldbuilding technique, their is simply no way for you to feasably learn all the information on it, it has to be slowly generated to keep the balance of the time period.
In story, no one knows about it except wildlings. It's viewed as disgraceful to many and pretty much no one can read or write so they're not keeping the best records. Since it's so taboo, no one even wants to talk about it, plus it can be dangerous to admit too.
Maybe, if Ned was still alive he could be developing some kind of Warg ability, the same for Sansa if she still had Lady. Bran is becoming a master, Arya is getting the grip of it and Jon is still discovering it.
I agree with this. I hadn't thought of it until now, but this could actually explain why Benjen "disapeared" if he was having trouble controlling his warging he could have been trapped, he could have lost his mind, his mind could have been overcome, or he could have just been plain afraid and left until he could figure shit out. Interesting idea to me since I'm not a big follower of Ben=Coldhands
Your right beg pardon let me rephrase. I wish that the wargs were a bigger focal point of the story. I think they are pretty neat.
@Bri Bri if you haven't read the wiki page, you might enjoy it, here is the link.
http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/...
James wrote: "The B+L=John theory actually makes a lot of sense when you think of why Ned would keep John's parentage a secret from Cat than the R+L= John. For R+L=J the only reason not to tell is to protect a T..."I fail to see how B+L=Jon makes any sense at all. not to mention why would Rhaegar kidnap Lyanna when he was known to be a noble & Gallant man. It's without question Lyanna was flattered and happy he gave her the rose at the tourney. That is not a theory that makes sense, in fact it just seems like a theory for theories sake.
Jackie wrote: "The word 'abduct' means to take away by force, it's always been called an abduction; never have I thought Lyanna went willingly. Why wouldn't Rhaegar take a woman without her consent? He was the..."
though the word is "abduct" it is pretty clear Rhaegar did not take Lyanna against her will. If one reads between the lines and see's "who" is saying she was "abducted" they can see it is clear as day they were in love.
Two or three pages ago there was a big discussion that maybe Brandon and Lyanna Stark are Jon's parents. I actually don't remember the details but if you look back a couple pages there is an extensive discussion.
Oh! thanks! first time I hear about that o__o
Yah Nermin and I were talking about it awhile back. Timeline could permit it...well...you know how I roll Nelson. LOL. It's speculative at best, but I figured it was fine for the thread titled"THEORIES AND SPECULATIONS"
No matter what line of theory someone chooses to follow, R+L is also a SPECULATION and is not cannon. To say it's clear that they were in love simply isnt true, thousands of people come online everyday not thinkin R+L at all. Their isn't a single character in book that says Lyanna loved Rhaegar, no one makes mention that it was reciprocated. It's a good theory, I enjoyed it, but I try my best not to let any speculation cloud my reads, I like to think objectively about all the possibilities, I saw an opening in the timeline, incest occurs within the series more than once and I felt the story tragectory could go in that direction if certain speculation played out, which I did discuss to an extent. I do feel it's unlikely, but thought it would be an enjoyable discussion for a group of people who like to read, Theories and Speculation.
Also, I agree that Rhaegar is portrayed as gallant and noble, but why did he run away with her in the first place and then allow literally thousands of people to die horrible deaths, including his own family, and hers as well, (the latter of which happened while they were both alive) instead of just proclaiming Lyanna his as the Crown Prince of Westeros or at least making some attempt to negotiate peace? Everybody already knew he took her, he never disputes that he kidnapped her or tries to rectify it, he lets war rage for over a year before he even comes out of hiding.
Thats not exactly Gallant, or Noble by actual definition. Actions speak louder than words in ASOIAF, at least they do for me.
it's was from you xD yeah I know how you roll :PIs nice to speculate but only if there's something in the books that let's you do it. That's why some theories sound better than others. Because while, all of them are speculations, some are better supported by the facts in the books than others.
If not, then they are only fan fiction. I don't like fan fiction very much.
I think is easy to see why Rhaegar run away with Lyanna. They were in love. and that's the key word "Love" by book five George has taught us how "love" fuck things up for out characters (Jaime, Jon, Robb, Tyrion, Ned, Robert) They have all been victims of love and love has make them do very stupid shit that end up being really bad for others and for themselves. Rhaegar is just another example of that.
He would have never, NEVER proclaim Lyanna. The political implications are just too big. He was married to Elia, who not only was a good wife but also the whole reason the Martell were (and still are) supporting the Targaryen dynasty. He was exactly like Ned in that regard.
Also I think that while is a very romantic idea and all. Robert's Rebellion is not the Troy war. Yes, he went to look for Lyanna, and Ned went along because she's her sister and damn! Brandon and Rickard also got screwed pretty bad by Aerys II. But if you look closely every other ally that went to fight alongside Robert in the war did it because they saw the perfect opportunity to begin the war that was being expected for some time now. Westeros was ripe for war. The Targaryen were too batshit crazy for the Kingdom.
Rhaegar releasing Lyanna back to her family wouldn't have stopped a war that was just waiting any little excuse to begin.
And also we know that Rhaegar was working on the whole "The Dragon has three heads" prophecy thing. If R + L = J is true (Which I think it is. No doubt about it.) then his action have a lot more weight. He was working towards something a lot much bigger than anybody at that moment could even imagine.
By this moment we all should have clear that the characters in this series are very, very, gray. Ned who is are perfect example of "The good guy" killed people, hurt others, but he always followed the path that would lead to what he thought would give the better outcome. For him and others.
If you really need to think about Rhaegar as the opposite of what we have been told by everybody (except Robert for obvious reasons) Then think of him along the line of "Ozymandias" in Watchmen. the lesser evil. It was THIS or total annihilation.
"I will require sword and armor. It seems I must be a warrior." - Rhaegar Targaryen
LOL, yah, I know, I come up with some weird shit and I accept that some people won't like what I come up with. I do stretch the limits for certain.In regards to
Is nice to speculate but only if there's something in the books that let's you do it. That's why some theories sound better than others. Because while, all of them are speculations, some are better supported by the facts in the books than others.
I did support the theory with facts from the book and it was never completely proved defunct. It was only as speculative as R+L which is pretty damn speculative really. Personally, the only thing that holds me to R+L is the whole Kingsgaurd thing. That never makes sense in any theory outside R+L for me. It's the strongest point. Other than that, even R+L is pretty subjective, at least for me.
It starts on the first page, I went back and checked. It's long though, so I don't blame you if you don't want to go their. LOL. Especially if it's completely unbelievable for you. Honestly, most everyone feels that way so no skin off my nose. :)
Also I think that while is a very romantic idea and all. Robert's Rebellion is not the Troy war. Yes, he went to look for Lyanna, and Ned went along because she's her sister and damn! Brandon and Rickard also got screwed pretty bad by Aerys II. But if you look closely every other ally that went to fight alongside Robert in the war did it because they saw the perfect opportunity to begin the war that was being expected for some time now. Westeros was ripe for war. The Targaryen were too batshit crazy for the Kingdom.
I totally agree with this. R+L aside, I can't remember which book it says it in, but Aerys only goes to the Tourney at Harrenhall because he suspects that Rhaegar was going to try and unseat him with support from the larger houses. No one wanted Aerys on the throne anymore. It's not all about Lyanna, her abduction was just an excuse, I agree. Hell, maybe thats what drove her abduction in the first place?
Yeah I'll have to go and read it. What really intrigues me is how you can find R+L=J so implausible? I would like to hear your thoughts... sorry if you have already explain it a lot >__<
There are two theories in the GRRM's books and one internet theory on Jon's parentage. The two in the book have Ned the father, with one lowborn and one highborn mother. The R & L tale I do not reject out of hand for one reason. Arya was told she looked like Lyanna. And in the book she looks more like Jon than the other siblings. However the silver hair and purple eyes of the Targaryens should be the dominate gene I would think, if the Tully genes could whip the Stark genes in 4 out of 5 children.
The Baratheon should have purple eyes and silver hair also if that's the case, they have Targaryen blood on their veins. For me one of the greatest clues will always be that Ned never calls Jon "son" but "his blood"
No thing Nelson, I don't mind explaining myself, its a valid question. I don't find it completely implausible, I just don't find it the end all, be all of possibilities. I think it is one of multiple possiblities. Many of which don't even include Lyanna at all as Stephen said. LOL!I guess in the scheme of the story, I'm a Baratheon Loyalist not Targaryen. :)) But Targaryen's have a way better banner....
Anyway, a lot of things in the R+L theory are pretty subjective. Like Lyanna crying during the song Rhaegar sings (she could literally be crying for any reason) or her running away with a married man after she explicitely states she doesn't approve of Robert's antics and worries that he'd cheat on her in marriage. That's a direct conflict of character build to theory in my opinion, which doesn't make sense to me. Why would Martin give us very little information about a character and then make it contrary to that characters actions? I concede some people can reason this away, but again, it's subjective and depends on how you choose to see Lyanna. Outside of that, the thought that she went willingly with Rhaegar then didn't try to rectify things after her brother and father were murdered also doesn't seem very characteristic of a Stark's honor, especially after we learn in Dance (I believe) that her and Brandon were extremely close and went riding together in private. Then their is the question of Why Ned wouldn't tell Cat who Jon's parents were and aloud her to spend 14 years thinking he cheated on her and then forced her to raise a bastard in a highborn home. On this front, I've read the rebuttal, that Ned thought Robert Baratheon would kill Jon for being Targaryen, but if you look at the text, thats doesn't make any sense whatsoever. It's a forced rebuttal, in my opinion, literally grasping at straws. Robert Baratheon kills only a single Targaryen, ONE, ONLY ONE. And he did it in the most fair manner one man can kill another in Westeros, which is by single combat and he did it for a good reason as he believed that Targaryen was a kidnapper and rapist and honestly, their isn't a ton to dispute that in the context of being an in story character.
He never makes any attempt to track down Viserys and Dany until Dany starts making attempts and threats to his throne, which, I'm sorry, from a political stand point, is a valid reason to begin attacking her. He does not kill Elia or Aegon and Rhaenys, that was NEVER his intention at all and completely the doing of the Lannisters, he didn't kill Aerys, he didn't kill Rhaella and for Robert's entire dynastic reign their was a Targaryen on the Wall that he made no attempts to kill or ever even bother period. Thats not the actions of a man who wants to commit familial genocide. Hell, he didn't even replace all the staff when he took the throne so it doesn't come across that he was highly worried about Targaryen's or their loyalists.
Anyway, this is getting long so I'll stop myself here. LOL.
As for genetics, I believe the Starks and Targaryen's both have recessive genetics. In my opinion, it's probably because of the magical components that run strong in both bloodlines, considering in a normal setting someone like Cat's genetics would be recessive. (red hair and green eyes) Baratheon genetics are not recessive at all, they're dominant genetics, anytime a Baratheon has had a child, it came out with strong characteristics of a Baratheon, that includes Targaryen's. We know that Rhaegar's genetics were probably recessive to Elia's as Rhaenys comes out dark complected. However, because Elia was dornish, she has the recessive genetic traits of Silver Hair and Purple eyes as well, (many dornish have these features) which is why their second child was born more characteristic to Targaryen. On the front of Lyanna and Rhaegar they would both have recessive genetics so really he should be combination of both families rather evenly, but it never suggests that he is.
For me one of the greatest clues will always be that Ned never calls Jon "son" but "his blood"
Technically, if B+L panned out, these words would still be true.
I agree that L+R isn't the only possibility for Jon's parentage, even though it seems to be the most plausible one for me. And I think that all the textual evidence that might refer to this theory is rather obvious in comparison to other theories where the hints are a lot more hidden. I actually had two thoughts regarding L+R:-For some reason most people claim that Lyanna and Rhaegar were in love (along the lines of the tale of that bard whose name I forgot). But what if Rhaegar really did abduct Lyanna then raped her and kept her in the tower (which might explain the king's guard preventing her from running away?) because she was pregnant with his child?
- If Jon really is Lyanna's child, I kind of understand why Ned didn't tell Robert who was in love with Lyanna.
Robert Baratheon kills only a single Targaryen, ONE, ONLY ONE.This is true but remember Robert openly states several times 2 of which are to Ned 1 in the crypts and another at Kings Landing that he hates all Targaryens and wants to kill them all. He didn't kill Dany and Viserus because he didn't know where they were. When he did find out he sent Jorah after them to spy and probably kill later but Jorah one never had a chance to do so with an escape plan available and two fell in love with Dany.
As far as B+L theory it has valid points but too many holes when compared to R+L. The time of conception for B had to be the same time as R. Which if they were sexually active like Jamie and Queen Lion bitch "lol sorry had to" Bryenden would have fought to the death to avenge or free her as someone stated earlier important characters have died or made dumb mistaes from love.
Why wouldn't Ned tell Cat if Jon wasn't his? Ned didn't tell Robert who was his best friend. Ned will always keep his word if he promises not to tell anyone he won't. I believe Lyanna made Ned promise not to tell anyone to protect Jon.
Also correct me here if Im wrong but at the wall when jon saved the Lord Bear Commander from the white walker. His hands were hurt from the glass...the fire didn't hurt him at all... sound anything like Dany there?
Yah Laura, thats pretty much all I'm saying. I won't even try to argue that this Brandon, Lyanna thing is an awesome theory that's totally perfect, I'm just throwing it out for perspective really on how speculative all theories for Jon's parentage are. I mean really, It's subjective to even think Jon isn't Ned's kid. We've literally never met a character POV that thought any differently.As for the possible abduction, it's also subjective of how you choose to see it. Like I said above, it's presented often that Rhaegar loved Lyanna, but never once is it suggested that Lyanna loved Rhaegar. I think however, that because Rhaegar is usually referenced as being a good guy, as well as the fact Ned doesn't seem to think of him in a horrible light,that most fans conclude, based on that, he wasn't a rapist at the very least. It's hard to reconcile the idea that Ned would be able to objectively think of Rhaegar (as he does a couple of times) if he indeed raped and as a result, basically murdered his sister.
This is true but remember Robert openly states several times 2 of which are to Ned 1 in the crypts and another at Kings Landing that he hates all Targaryens and wants to kill them all.This isn't true. He says in Chapter 4 in the crypts of Winterfell that Rhaegar only died once and that he would liked to have killed him a thousand more times. All he says is that he doesn't regret killing Rhaegar, that he deserved it, and that he'd do it again and does in his dreams. Also, Jorah was banished long ago, and in the pocket of Varys from the beginning. Varys and Robert Baratheon have always known that Dany and Viserys were in the Free Cities. It's a known fact by everyone that William Darry stole them away from dragonstone to the free cities to protect them.
In chapter 33 he says "I want them dead, Mother and Child both, that fool Viserys as well" later when Ned questions him why they rebelled against Aerys if not to stop the murder of innocent children Robert responds, "To put an end to Targaryens"
in context, it seems to me he means this dynastically however.
Their is not a single time he says to kill all Targaryens or that he hates all Targaryens. He had no problems with them until they started threatening his place as king then he wanted them dead, fair enough, only Ned thinks this is a bad idea.
Also correct me here if Im wrong but at the wall when jon saved the Lord Bear Commander from the white walker. His hands were hurt from the glass...the fire didn't hurt him at all... sound anything like Dany there?
Also he is burned by the fire, his hand is burned so badly that when it scars he can no longer form it into a fist. It's in chapter 60.
The time of conception for B had to be the same time as R.
I posted in the beginning that conception could work in GRRM's presented timeline and GRRM even admitted that it's not perfect, he'll probably never break it down to months and days because of the intense scrutiny. I linked the email on the first page.
Which if they were sexually active like Jamie and Queen Lion bitch "lol sorry had to" Bryenden would have fought to the death to avenge or free her.
Honestly, thats subjective. Jaime decidedly does not fight to death for Cersei when she begs him to at her trial...
Also, technically, B+L and R+L aside, Brandon did fight to the death for her. He went to Kings Landing to challenge Rhaegar to a duel to the death. He instead was arrested and murdered in unfair trial.
Why wouldn't Ned tell Cat if Jon wasn't his? Ned didn't tell Robert who was his best friend. Ned will always keep his word if he promises not to tell anyone he won't. I believe Lyanna made Ned promise not to tell anyone to protect Jon.
I agree that his is a decent explanation of why he might not tell Robert. But not a decent explanation of why he never told Cat. Though I could possibly accept that because he promised not to say anything he never did maybe as a last memorium to his sister maybe. I dont know...thats a stretch for me. Is it honorable to keep a fairly harmless secret from your wife when you know for a fact it's painful for her everytime she looks at Jon and then force her to do so every single day? Why not foster him out at the very least like normal highborns? However, since I was just reading the chapter about Ned memory to see if Robert did say that about Targaryens :) (Made me look I admit! LOL) the context I read it in, the promise he made could have simply been that he would bring her body and bury her at Winterfell. It's not irrational to think that either considering her's is the only body he bothered to bring back. Which leads us back to how subjective it is to even think that Jon isn't Ned's bastard as presented. :( :( :( Even later when he is thinking about it in the dungeons he just thinks of her last words, which were "Promise Me Ned, Promise Me" it's not even a stretch, pyschologically speaking that he think of these words often considering the trauma he went to in an attempt to save her and feeling of failure that surely followed and likely continues to haunt him. It's just weird he starts thinking of Jon Snow after he thinks of that in the dungeon, which isn't exactly much to go on, yet still equates to evidence for some people I have met. :( <---This is my face today apperantly. LOL
Lyanna didn't love Robert, Now Rhaegar is like super gorgeous and cool and he doesn't exactly wants to marry her so Lyanna being the wildchild she's goes with him. There's actually no contradiction between Lyanna thoughts and actions. If we can trust in Ned when he says that Arya is like Lyanna, then there you have your answer she was never going to be a woman made for marriage (at least not that kind) she just follows her feeling and needs. And once again what could have Lyanna done to rectify things? Nothing. The damage was already done. There was nothing she could do to stop de carnage that was coming.
In Dance we learn that Brandon and Lyanna love to ride. That doesn't mean that they were in incestous relationship at all. Then all siblings that are close to each other are involved in one. They were just like Jon and Arya, they closer to each other than to their other siblings. Brandon and Lyanna were the wild ones, I'm sure they love to go around getting into trouble, while Ned was the quiet one. That's just normal. There has to be stronger evidence to support that statement.
It's true that Robert only kills Rhaegar in combat. But it's his rebellion, it's his war, it's presence that kills all the other Targaryen. Like Karlis says Robert's hatred for the Targaryen was well known.
When Tywin shows the corpses of the Targaryen children he just says.
"I see no babes, only dragonspawn".
Now that's cold. His hatred was even a point of friction in his friendship with Ned. Ned, that man who knows Robert the better (and throughout with learns about Robert because Robert is not POV) tells us this. This argument makes again an appeareance in the first book when he wants Dany dead. Ned knows that Robert's hatred for the Targaryen is off the charts and makes him behave like an asshole.
Actually, there are not many Dornishmen with those characteristics. They very uncommon in Westeros. Right now there are only two house with those traits. House Dayne in Dorne and House Velaryon in Blackwater. Those traits are most common in Essos.
The thing is that B+L cannot be supported, while R+L does.
I mean remember that chapter where Ned is thinking about Robert's bastards and then he starts to think about Jon... and then about Lyanna and then about the Promise... is all just there.
The Promise and Jon are always linked is Ned's mind! that's huge.
Lyanna didn't love Robert, Now Rhaegar is like super gorgeous and cool and he doesn't exactly wants to marry her so Lyanna being the wildchild she's goes with him. There's actually no contradiction between Lyanna thoughts and actions. If we can trust in Ned when he says that Arya is like Lyanna, then there you have your answer she was never going to be a woman made for marriage (at least not that kind) she just follows her feeling and needs.I agree that Lyanna doesn't love Robert, (although it never actually says that) but their is zero indication that she loves Rhaegar either. Rhaegar was handsome, but so was Robert, and if she is so much like Arya, I seriously doubt that matters to her. However, Cersei even remembers getting excited to marry the handsome and mighty warrior Robert Baratheon. She just looses that when he calls her Lyanna because Cersei already had a rivalry with her in her psychotic mind, due to Rhaegar "choosing" her.
Also, their is a contradiction in my opinion, because we're presented with the fact that Lyanna doesn't approve of a man cheating and then she helps a man cheat on his wife. It has nothing to do with Arya. Even if Lyanna is like Arya, that doesn't negate the fact her characters only presented lines besides "Promise Me" are that she doesn't like Men sleeping around after they're married. That's a contradiction by definition.
And once again what could have Lyanna done to rectify things? Nothing. The damage was already done. There was nothing she could do to stop de carnage that was coming.
Honestly, from the beginning she could have left a note. Even just leaving a rose on the bed would have been symbolic enough, Bael the Bard is a Winterfell epic. She could have stood on the steps of the Red Keep and said this is what I choose. The fact of the matter is, when Ned found her, she was being held prisoner by Kingsgaurdsmen. They weren't their to hang out with her and make sure everything was okay, otherwise their would be no reason, after the sack of Kings Landing and tople of the dynasty, to stop Ned from entering the tower of Joy and fight him to the death.
In Dance we learn that Brandon and Lyanna love to ride. That doesn't mean that they were in incestous relationship at all. Then all siblings that are close to each other are involved in one.
This is faulty logic. If you follow logic like that, your basically saying your ultimate conclusion is no siblings who are close are having incestuous relationships which isn't true at all in reality, or in story. Not ALL close siblings are having incestuous relationships, but some are, and Lyanna and Brandon's riding alone together and spending more time with eachother than their other siblings could be considered implication in an ending where B+L played out. It's the same as people jumping to the conclusion that Lyanna was in love with Rhaegar because she cried during his song or that she went willingly with him because Robert says that though he killed Rhaegar he still won.
It's true that Robert only kills Rhaegar in combat. But it's his rebellion, it's his war, it's presence that kills all the other Targaryen. Like Karlis says Robert's hatred for the Targaryen was well known.
Robert's not to blame for the rebellion, it's only called Robert's Rebellion because he was going to be seated on the throne in the end if they won. Jon Arryn called the banners and began the rebellion in reply to a request that he kill Ned simply for being a Stark. That action had very little to do with Robert hating Targaryen's and everything to do with Targaryen's over stepping the limits of their power. His hatred for Rhaegar Targaryen is well known, but his hatred for Targaryens? Cite it and I'll believe it. I don't remember anyone ever referencing Robert Baratheon hating every Targaryen at the beginning of Robert's Rebellion.
When Tywin shows the corpses of the Targaryen children he just says.
"I see no babes, only dragonspawn".
Now that's cold. His hatred was even a point of friction in his friendship with Ned. Ned, that man who knows Robert the better (and throughout with learns about Robert because Robert is not POV) tells us this. This argument makes again an appeareance in the first book when he wants Dany dead. Ned knows that Robert's hatred for the Targaryen is off the charts and makes him behave like an asshole.
Yes he says this to Ned and it's cold I agree, but he didn't order anyone to kill them. However, I will concede that Ned is of the opinion that Robert's hatred is of insane proportions, found a reference in chapter 12. He developes this opinion after this event though. But at least it gives a little creedance to the idea Ned might fear for Jon, even though I consider that unwarranted especially after 14 years of him doing nothing.
Actually, there are not many Dornishmen with those characteristics. They very uncommon in Westeros. Right now there are only two house with those traits. House Dayne in Dorne and House Velaryon in Blackwater. Those traits are most common in Essos.
Yes you are correct, I had to go figure out how that would work in terms of genetics because it's a good point. Figured it out though, Elia has the recessive genetics from her Targaryen ancestors, either Daeron II or Daenarys I both siblings married Targaryen's to unite Dorne with Westeros about 200 years after the War of Conquest.
The thing is that B+L cannot be supported, while R+L does.
I wish we could do a breakdown of evidence for both, I think it would be fun but maybe too much of an undertaking my brains hurting from this discussion LOL!!
But I'm enjoying it, you guys are awesome.
You know we should all be able to come up with the right answer just by reading the first three books! D&D did it! We can do it also. We're intelligent!
Well, even though I enjoy arguing against it, (this is just a horrible personal trait I have) I'll face the music and admit, that R+L is probably right.Just fits the genre type and I don't think GRRM is trying to explode the genre with something new. Plus it's less gross. :)
And it would be less lame. I mean another incestuous relationship... boring!
and questionable.Hope GRRM doesn't have a sister.
LOL, Goodreads police will probably delete that with their new policies. :D
They still have done a site wide announcement which is a bit annoying, but yes they changed their policies on talking about Authors. Your posts, reviews, and even your shelves can now be deleted by staff if they feel it reflects that you are judging the author by their behavior and not by their writing merit.It's over in goodreads feedback group that they announced it. Lemme see if I can link it....
EDIT: http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/1...
that should take you their if you're interested in reading it.
:O good to know! I won't say anything bad about ksfksdfhg and 343252566 :D
Goodreads: U have been flagged for termination with extreme prejudice...RED TEAM GO! RED TEAM GO!
I know their has been alot of discussion over who will sit on the Iron Throne, but this caught me by surprise. http://www.allwalls.net/breaking-bad-...
Hhaha well George has been known to surprise us!! W.W. Theory I LOVE IT
Hi, I'm completely new to this website and I must say I'm impressed :D. I've read all the comments up to this spot and I'm convinced that Rhaegar and Lyanna are Jon's parents. It's amazing what details and hints you came up with, I particularly like the thing about Ned's promise and Jon being linked in his mind, and also the way Ned refers to Jon as "his blood" and not his son. I didn't go back and look up all these things, to be honest, so I trust you they are in the books :).
I always thought it a bit fishy that Ned never reveals his opinion about the Rhaegar and Lyanna issue. Whether she was abducted or not (or whatever) Ned is bound to have an opinion about that and the fact that he doesn't share it with the reader is suspicious.
There was a discussion about Littlefinger's plans earlier that I found interesting. So, do you think he's really planning to have Sansa marry Harry the Heir? I got the impression that Littlefinger pretty much wants her for himself.
Harry the Heir will not live long past the wedding night. Littlefinger needs 3 deaths. Little Robert, Tyrion and Harry. Tyrion he can not get to and at some point he will plan to kill Sansa, as she knows too much and is still married to Tyrion. So they will go out for a ride where Littlefinger will explain how he loves her but she knows he killed Jon Arryn and Joffrey, forged letters and grants. And just when he is about to push Sansa over a cliff, Nymeria eats him.
You really think he would try to kill her? That never occured to me before, though I admit it makes sense in a way. Still I think he will want to keep her, she's not very bright (it seems, so far, maybe she's just inexperienced and being around Littlefinger may change that) and easy to manipulate. I love the part where Nymeria eats him :D. I like to think that he will meet Stoneheart and die at her hand, but the Nymeria theory sounds awesome :).
I don't personally think he intends to marry her to Harry. Or if he does, that it will roll about the same as Stephen said.I agree, I think he wants her for himself, in my opinion he's obsessed with getting a "Cat" all of his own and Sansa is a perfect fit. I honestly almost suspect he will marry her and claim Winterfell. I seriously think almost everyone would prefer Littlefinger over the Bolton's especially if he was married to a Stark girl. Since it's known by everyone that Sansa never had sex with Tyrion, and she isn't much of a horse rider, I wouldn't be surprised if her marriage qualified for annulment. Or that Littlefinger could arrange whatever he might want. I think also he might switch to Stannis and barter for a more powerful position, possibly something in rivalry with Varys. Definitely think either way Harry will be meeting a sad demise. I think Littlefinger wants to keep Robert Arryn as only option for heir so he has more control. He really only needs to look like he is doing the opposite.
Littlefinger does not want Winterfell. Way too cold. He wants the Eyrie. I refer to p. 893-6 in FFC. But for his plan to work he needs Tyrion to be dead. The widowed Sansa would be his sweet spot, but without that, where is he? At some point, Littlefinger will have to cut his losses. At this point the only one who knows all of his complicity in the various deaths is Sansa. At the moment Sansa is missing and for her to show up late in the game puts him in a precarious position, especially if at this point Tyrion is Lord of Castery Rock. And finally Littlefinger Loves Littlefinger.
