Valar Morghulis--Valar Dohaeris discussion
A Song of Ice and Fire
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Theories & Speculations: SPOILERS for all books
I am hoping we get a little knowledge of Asshai when GRRM writes about Euron's background & travels. Boltons & Freys will not survive bk 6 so I think Euron will get more ink. GRRM stated two major story arcs will end in bk 6. I am guessing Stannis, Jaime or Petyr.
I wonder why Quithe is helping Dany though when melisandre is so clearly opposed to her. Also they mentioned in about melis having certain powders and such hidden in her sleeves and how she makes things appear a certain a way. I wonder if she's not really for rhllor at all and has some other evil purpose to serve. Maybe all red priests use such powders to make fires grow and all that jazz but I feel like she's defiantly not upto anything good. I think she's a fraud even though she spawns creepy shadow babies.
Its the whole 'missing the BALL's thing' that creeps me out a bit, To make it worse, he's actually completely emasculated, not just casturated. Double wince to that.
And yah...sorry, TMI...I know...TMI
I wonder why Quithe is helping Dany though when melisandre is so clearly opposed to her
Quaithe isn't a preistess of R'hllor. It's unknown if she even has any connection to them at all. Shadowbinders aren't a sect of the religion, they're just a practitioner of magic that controls shadows. Mel being a preistess and Mel being a shadowbinder are completely independant of eachother.
But outside of that, Moqorro, who is definitely in the same religious sect as Mel, has different ideas about AA himself. While Mel believes that Stannis is AA, Moqorro believes that Dany is AA. Really they're not working against eachother, there beliefs just conflict on who AA is. Azor Ahai is a huge part of there religion, his second coming is like the second coming of Christ believed by Christians. It makes sense that there is dispute over who is Azor Ahai and I wouldn't be surprised if there was a bit of a schism because of it.
Also they mentioned in about melis having certain powders and such hidden in her sleeves and how she makes things appear a certain a way. I wonder if she's not really for rhllor at all and has some other evil purpose to serve.
This actually isn't Mel's doing persay, this is a practice that was adopted after the "death" of magic occurred. Preists and Preistess' of R'hllor could, previous to the death, use magic in much more extreme and fanciful ways, we see some examples in what Thoros of Myr does with Cat and Beric. However, magic failed and then they could no longer keep up these practices so, a way was created to mimic their skills, I would assume, to keep followers. What Mel does is a bit of illusion and slide of hand, but she still knows the rituals that are actually magical and given that magic is growing stronger again, potentially use them. When Mel met Stannis magic was still dead, so it makes sense that she has her stuff still and that she would even rely on it as that is what she was trained to do to keep up appearances.
Even outside that, most magic systems do require components to make magic work. It's a widely accepted frame from roleplaying I've noticed a lot of writers adapt into their worlds. So their is always that as well.
Interesting. I didn't realize that bout Q. I would definetly love to know more about shadowbinders.
I think it's a cultural thing that relates to the geographic location. The mask is some form of representation of rank I think...but it's unclear, thats just an assumption.There really isn't much said about them, which is too bad.
But yah, thats why the distinction is always made that Mel is a preistess AND a shadowbinder because they aren't necessarily related, not every preistess does what she does.
Exactly both of them are from Asshai but only Melisandre is a Red Priest. It's all about interpretation of the flames! And in my opinion Melisandre is the most the confused one D: But, I don't think she's evil at all. She's just confused as hell xD
I agree with the Nelson.I also don't think Mel is evil after so many reads. I think her POV chapter in DWD really brought that out well. She was a slave, she was indoctrinated into the faith by force. She's a victim really, and in my personal opinion, suffers from a bit of Stockholm Syndrome.
By the god or gods I hope she goes to Westeros. A Dance With Dragons. You would think that means she goes home by then. The longer she stays in Mereen the longer she puts herself in danger and looses cause to return to Westeros.
Sigur Rós is going to appear on the show! :D I guess they'll be the singers in a weeding :P
Yes, he has been the perfect Joffrey. Perfect casting right there.
Completely agree.Looks just as I imagined even with the age up. Clearly my imaginations age estimator needs tuning. LOL. I could nearly say the same for all the Lannister's actually. Except Tyrion's eyes match and now...well...he has a face. But you know what I mean.
Then again, I'm not going to lie, I'm pretty biased, I enjoy reading the Lannisters the most. Arya is the only Stark I've ever really had much attachment to.
I think the casting as been really good. Varys, Sandor, Arya, Ned, Drogo, Tywin and Davos are straight out of my imagination xDI think the only actor I really don't see in his role is Ciarán Hinds as Mance Rayder.
I don't know... I always imagined Mance as in his late 40's not in his 60's
Oh yes, I totally agree.Most of the casting is really well done. I don't personally like the casting for Cat or Mance. Both are fine enough actors but they aren't the characters from the novels. Honestly, I thought the guy they had as Tormund would have been a great Mance. I was weirded out that they didn't just cast him as the character. And WTF? Why do they cut out so many red heads? Only Sansa got the have the right color hair and it's not like it's expensive or even hard to dye someones hair to match the freakin' character descriptions. *sigh*
Also, NO TALISA. Thank god thats over.
Oona is pretty xD I didn't mind her :P
I was a lil confused with the casting of Cat's sister only because didn't the book describe Lysa as a bit overweight? & I just picture her as more homely? not to say she was overly 'hot' or anything. They did a GREAT job getting an actor to do a great creepy job with her character, but I swear the Boob lil Robert was taking shots from looked a lil fake, like that thing Robert De'nero's character made up in "Meet the Fockers" LOL Even though I've actually SEEN a mother who had a daughter old enuff to ask to be breast fed (shiver..), my wife breast fed all 3 of my boys, but when they can walk around & actually ask for the 'tit' I think its about time to ween. I wish I could scrub my brain after seeing her do that, except in my case the mom pushed her away when she tried to attach herself to a nip
@Gordon. Hahahhahahahahhahaha it did look like the focker tit!!!!
Yah I'm pretty sure she is supposed to be a little overweight. I know Cersei is supposed to head in that direction as well so I wonder if the actress will put on a couple extra pounds for the next season.On the front of breastfeeding I can't really say, no kids for me. Most of my friends only breastfed until their kids could drink from sippy cups though so I never had anything out of the ordinary happen.
Amber wrote: "Yah I'm pretty sure she is supposed to be a little overweight. I know Cersei is supposed to head in that direction as well so I wonder if the actress will put on a couple extra pounds for the next..."Drinking out of a sippy cup is like 1 year old, the ability to walk up to ur parent & verbalize this need is more in the range of 3-4 year olds... can anyone say, a lil'uncomfortable? Not only that, don't u think 3 years is a loooong time to have a baby attached to ur nipples?
I don't have a lot of opinions on the matter, but I do think its a bit weird to breastfeed a child beyond necessesity. Breastfeeding at the point in their life where they cannot remember or cannot eat any other way is one thing, but breastfeeding to an age where they could potentially remember not only seeing your breast but putting it in their mouth, seems to me, to have the potential to damage a child in a very freudian way.But maybe I'm just being some kind of weirdo thinking like that...I don't know...like I said, no kids. LOL
BINGO!!! I wonder if changes of the Freudian 'Id' if the child was male? Its obviously not quite lil' Roberty Arryn still getting some milk au naturale at 9, I know this is waaaay off topic, but there were no happy cows in California in the Eyrie lol...Didn't Sansa have to lightly push him away from her pubescent body while cuddling before he asked her if she was his new mother?
Yes, I do believe that did happen to poor Sansa. I feel bad for both really. Robert Arryn is annoying and weak but he's a product of his surroundings. He's to young to blame for his nature in my opinion. If he lives hopefully he pulls out of it or I could see him ending up super creepy. I honestly think the best thing that could have happened to him would be to be under Littlefinger's care if indeed Littlefinger could refrain from exploiting him. Littlefinger could teach him to use his mind to wind battles which is what Robert Arryn needs to learn and asap.
Perhaps Littlefinger can teach LiL'Rob to be a bit slower & sicklier than he already is to have people underestimate him even more than they already do :DIt is kinda depressing for Rob because I don't see anything good happening to him except Littlefinger using him in his tactical game of thrones... I think LF only cares for Sansa & if she ultimately gives him 'the palm of her hand' she will make a quick, deadly enemy that she better be prepared to battle wits with
Yep, pretty much. Wouldn't be surprised if he dies, but also wouldn't be surprised if his status ended up elevating him. Martin's unpredictable like that, for all I know he'll make Sweet Robyn the King of Westeros. *sigh*
King Robert the Unweened.
Jon wrote: "I was joking. Never assume my theories have basis.What do you think the three heads mean?
This prophecy could mean so many things; I haven't seen one completely convincing theory. I'm not even 1..."
Dany is one of them because she has already learn t how to ride one of the dragons (Drogon)
David wrote: "I don't think Jo dies, even temporarily. I figure Meli put some kind of preemptive hocus on him since she kept seeing his death for months, she just did not understand it till a day before it happe..."Its not jon,its more likely that the prince who was promised is Bran people seem to forget that after his training he will be a million time powerful than Jon
I've been considering the idea that this whole "the dragon must have three heads" thing is being taken out of context.It's my new crackpot...going to do some research on that now actually. LOL!
Amber wrote: "I agree with the Nelson.I also don't think Mel is evil after so many reads. I think her POV chapter in DWD really brought that out well. She was a slave, she was indoctrinated into the faith by..."
There is no character in a song of ice and fire that is evil
Mirriam webster would seem to disagree.Even Mel falls under her definition of evil, and I admit, it's a subjective viewpoint to see her otherwise.
Moyabrian wrote: There is no character in a song of ice and fire that is evil Ramsay Snow is fucking EVIL there's not even a little sign of gray in that character.
Funny thats who instantly popped in my mind as well.Joffery is also evil, so is Gregor Clegane...I could probably keep going, but that just seems a bit out of control.
Look guys! I'm practicing restraint!! YAY!
Yeah, it's pretty bad when being reanimated as a walking corpse makes a dude less a monster.
Amber wrote: "Funny thats who instantly popped in my mind as well.Joffery is also evil, so is Gregor Clegane...I could probably keep going, but that just seems a bit out of control.
Look guys! I'm practicing ..."
Exactly. Is impossible not to have good old bad guys in a story. It helps the drama. if you're rooting for everyone then it gets unfocused.
So yeah, out there people is always saying "Every characters is gray in ASOIAF" but that's not completely true.
Amber wrote: "Funny thats who instantly popped in my mind as well.Joffery is also evil, so is Gregor Clegane...I could probably keep going, but that just seems a bit out of control.
Look guys! I'm practicing ..."
You're right there are some characters that are evil but what am trying to point out is that GRRM creates characters that are termed as villains but he always seems to give some sort of reason why the character behaves in that manner.There was a conversation btwn Reek and Roose in which Roose kind of explained to why Ramsey was so attached to him (Reek) and in that conversation things were revealed about Ramsay behavior
Chris wrote: "Yeah, it's pretty bad when being reanimated as a walking corpse makes a dude less a monster."
For what I remember that conversation only makes Roose reflect if was Reek who corrupted Ramsay or the other way around. He was just born evil. Gregor also has like no reason for being an asshole. Specially when you look at Sandor.
Joffrey also. Yes, the upbringing affects all of them, but these characters just went overboard.
Plus during those times, the 'villians' & notable people, whether ur playing the 'GoT' or not usually belong to very old families with old blood feuds spanning generations, (ur father killed my 2nd cousin twice removed, 'the north never forgets'...) they need to pronounce fealty to a lord &/or king, all the while serving to try & get power, $, respect by whatever means they judge necessary, some more honorable then others. In the end the 'good guys & bad guys' are not gray as much dynamic to the changes around them.Roose Bolton was a loyal Stark banner until he saw Robb fucked it up by thinking with his cock (can't fault him for that lol) but the marrying a relatively 'lower class' of woman therefore insulting Frey that ends in the 'red wedding'. Bolton knew when to shift allegiances on a 'doomed' team, or knowing to ensure Tywin knew he had nothing to do with Jamie's hand by sending him to the Keep with protection, it all equates to a cunning & dangerous lord. Joff is obv. a sociopath & coward, even Jamie is changing his ways now that he's been so viscously humbled, into what? Who knows. But the list goes on, the lords & knights & ladies & whoever has the IQ to play the game of power all must either anticipate others & choose to pre-emtively strike or react after others have.
That's what I love about books like these, where's the angle a characters POV is looking at? Whose pulling whose 'behind the curtain' strings knowingly or unknowingly? & above all whose going to see the knife & react before it gives slid in they're back? Love it!
I have read all the books but I am only now starting the TV show and I think I have seen the first six episodes of season one. Because the books are so detailed and rather slow paced (not in a negative way, not always anyway), I think that the TV show goes to fast. But maybe I only feel that way in contrast with the books. I do love the cast though. The only ones I do not like as much are Eddard (I love Sean Bean but I always think of Boromir when I see him and somehow I thought of Ned as a lot more serious and..I don't know really), Jon (he comes of kind of weak and spoilt, which he probably is, but he acts younger than what he looks which kind of irritates me), Robb (I couldn't distinguish him and Jon in the beginning) and Sam (he looks the part but in the show he comes across as rather silly which he isn't). By the way, am I the only one who thinks that Robb and Jon do not look like 16/18 year olds (or however old they are in the show?) rather like 22 year olds? Oh, and I don't quite remember from the first book but in the show, Theon constantly mentions how the Starks are not his family and how he is a hostage and stuff. From what I remember he never mentioned any of this in the books and I was actually rather shocked when he took Winterfell. Or is it just me?
Amber wrote: "I've been considering the idea that this whole "the dragon must have three heads" thing is being taken out of context.It's my new crackpot...going to do some research on that now actually. LOL!"
I think perhaps your onto something. I thought this at very first that he couldn't possible be so literal with the 3 heads thing. Let me know if you find any good info!
Laura wrote: "Oh, and I don't quite remember from the first book but in the show, Theon constantly mentions how the Starks are not his family and how he is a hostage and stuff. From what I remember he never mentioned any of this in the books and I was actually rather shocked when he took Winterfell. Or is it just me? ..."He did, but not as often as he does on the show. I figured that's because on the show they had to remind people who the hell he actually was after that first season.
There are lots of evil rolling around in GRRM's world. The Tickler, Qyburn, Joffrey, and Littlefinger to name a few. I do not consider Melisandre evil so much as misguided. I know she has burned a few people, but no one who did not deserve it. And she has been stopped from burning children and old innocent men. I will be shocked if Robert Arryn survives Bk6. All of Littlefinger's plans to gain the Eyrie depends on the Little Robin dying.
Hey I'm new to this but after reading this thread I thought Bran might be the one who reveals Jon's parentage. A bit random sorry :). If the L+R=J theory is correct.
I believe Howlan Reed will be the one to shed light on jons parents. ive read so much about him but he hasnt been formally introduced.
That probably makes more sense, but I was thinking it could be Bran because he is already in the north and he is developing his power to look through time. Also Jon could be more likely to listen to him since they grew up together. Not sure.
Speaking of the north what is going on with Benjen Stark? That whole thing is a mystery..... Is it possible he knows about Jon's real parents and he is the one who will tell jon? I mean hes not been confirmed dead but everyone thinks he is. Ned can't tell anyone about Jon's mom right? well Benjen and Lyanna are also brother and sister its Benjen's right as well to know I would say. So who isn't to say Benjen is the one who will tell Jon who he is and maybe help raise him to power? That last part is a stretch but what I know is we will hear about Benjen again and what else could be a more dramatic re-intro to the series than "Hey jon your a dragon and the f**ing king." lol idk just my theory.
Jon cannot be the King. He's still a bastard. You're right in that Benjen has to come back and do something big.
Do anyone know how the Warg heritage passes on? I mean if Bran and Arya have the ability. Jon does as well even though he pushes it away. Does that mean it came thru Eddard Starks side? Perhaps Benjin is to crows as the Starks are to dire wolfs. Maybe cause he was a black brother his took crows to see thru instead of a wolf. Also I believe Nimeria will reappear at some point as well.
I'm assuming that Benjin is cold hand in my previous statement.
Jon is still a bastard. Jon is also potentially dead lol my theory was also assuming R+L=J theory is true.
He's is def. the man because of all the power he holds & his shadowy reasons... Its the whole 'missing the BALL's thing' that creeps me out a bit, well not creep, since Dany's army is unsullied... I guess its a HUGE WINCE lol