Valar Morghulis--Valar Dohaeris discussion
A Song of Ice and Fire
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Theories & Speculations: SPOILERS for all books
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Nelson
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Aug 21, 2013 06:08PM
I don't think he's gonna be one of the heads but his role will be of great importance. He has the ships :)
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Victarion/Euron are discussed quite heavily over at westeros.org as possible dragon riders. A rider can only have one dragon, but a dragon can have many riders, so it's not impossible that one of the iron born blows the horn, gets a dragon, gets killed, and someone else continues as rider.
Yeah well its hard to.say what there part may be. Could he be the false dragon danys warned about. I think the Iron bor seem destined for civil war though.
That damn book cannot come any sooner. >___<
There are nine chapters of BK 6 on various web sites, a couple on GRRM website. One kind soul has even compiled all of the various chapters on a pdf sheet. a few are just summaries of public readings GRRM has given over the past 3 years. Read Patrick Rothfuss in the meantime.
Yes, I read those and Rothfuss already. The last Arianne chapter was really cool. I'm reading Malazan: Book of the Fallen in the meantime :) is awesome
Rothfuss takes his sweet arse time like GRRM,
Yeah... book three seems to be really far away :(
Although 'Malazan: The Book of the Fallen' is a big series to chew on, very complex world until u get a handle on what the frig is going on, because they usually recommend u start with 'Gardens of the Moon' which is like book 5 or 6 of the series. Def. a diff animal than GRRM I would have liked to somehow see a continuation of Ambercombie's 'First Law' books, but he wrote 'Red Country' which is still good but I liked many of the characters in the trilogy, also read "The Heroes', that was ok, u need the Blooody nine!
"Gardens of the Moon" is book 1 of the series. Begin to read Malazan with book 5 or 6 is totally crazy, you wouldn't understand nothing at all. I finished book 3 "Memories of Ice" and it was amazing. The series is dark and gritty just like "A Song of Ice and Fire" is. But, there's a lot more magic and is more plot driven while "ASOIAF" is more character driven. I'll begin book "House of Chains" next week for sure :)
I have "The First Law" but I have not begin to read it. Maybe i'll start with it when I finish Malazan.
Ur right, I was thinking of a diff. series, I'm talking about the difference between 'Gardens' & 'Deadhouse Gates' = 2 completely different story lines (no spoilers) taking place simultaneously for a bit & Erikson makes it look easy to do... Highly recommend the Ambercrombie trilogy, esp if u like the mixture of 'real life' war from history mixed with a very interesting magic system... But obv. U took on a big job with 'Malazan', there is a prequel I started to read that takes place couple thousand years before 'Gardens of Moon', I think Erikson is only on book 1 of that, at least the last time I checked, haven't read Erikson in a bit....
Oh yes! He takes the whole "Different POV" to another level.I have heard a lot of good stuff about "The First Law" so I'jm excited. I also want to read The "Mistborn" trilogy by Brandon Sanderson. Hell! maybe I'll read all of them and GRRM will still be writing "Winter" u____u
Yes, Malazan is a big job I also have the novellas and "Forge of Darkness" and the other books by Iain so there0s plenty of material.
Nelson wrote: "That damn book cannot come any sooner. >___<"( silent scream!)
The "expected publication" date here in Goodreads is such a teaser...2015! D:
Nelson wrote: "Yeah... book three seems to be really far away :("Pat's been throwing it out for a 2014 publication on the hopeful side. I don't think three years is too bad, but...obviously, I read Martin.
You guys should join Rothfussian's forum since you read KKC.
Amber wrote: "Nelson wrote: "Yeah... book three seems to be really far away :("Pat's been throwing it out for a 2014 publication on the hopeful side. I don't think three years is too bad, but...obviously, I r..."
Its been so looooong since I read the KKC I don't know if I can even get into the conversation without rereading the books to ensure I don't insert foot in mouth as often, hahaha, WAAAAA!
I read them maybe I year ago... I think I remember them well... 2014 seems nice :D we're already in September so... :P
If you enjoyed them Gordon you should reread them for sure. I've found Rothfuss to have so much underlying story it's amazing.Then again, I'm a fangirl so....totally biased on that front. LOL
And yah, it's not too bad Nelson. Three years for a novel of his calibur isn't too long a wait for me and if he keeps to his regular pattern, we'll see it in the first half of 2014. (He never said that though, I'm just basing that on the fact all his other novels were published in the first quarter)
I'm really hoping it comes out around that time, my birthday is in April so that would basically be THE BEST THING EVER. LOL.
I kinda loved them beyond any earthly explanation.
He really took his time with "Wise Man's Fear" almost the same time GRRM between Feast and Dance. and almost for the same reason. They both had the story already planed and written and then they found out they had to scrap all that. That must be a horrible feelingI don't know how Steven Erikson did it with Malazan, ten books, a 1000 pages each, from 1999 to 2011! What a machine o___o Brandon Sanderson also writes really fast it's amazing.
Close I guess. 4 vs 6. I didn't mind the wait there either though. I enjoyed WMF more than NoTW but felt Dance was Martin's weakest novel of the series to date. I think the wait between NoTW and WMF was just felt worse than this one because Pat didn't put out anything else we could enjoy. I've really enjoyed the side projects he's done while working on DOS. Storyboard was awesome, Unfettered's story was short but enjoyable, hopefully the new Bast short/novella will come out before DOS and he's been keeping the blog up to date which is nice.However, I realize I'm a bit of an outsider with that opinion. LOL. I really enjoyed FFC which I hardly ever hear/read anyone say. :)
WMF was nice but there were so parts that were too repetitive. IMO. Storyboard was great, so sad geekand sundry took it out :(Well! I think my order in preferences would be:
1. Storm of Swords
2. Feast for Crows
3. Dance With Dragons
4. Game of Thrones
5. Clash of Kings
Clash of Kings is good but idk I moved so slow!!! (for me) but I recognize it's because it's a build up book. everything that was build up there, payed off in Storm, that's why Storm is sooo awesome! xD
Amber wrote: "If you enjoyed them Gordon you should reread them for sure. Then again, I'm a fangirl so....totally biased on that front. LOLA..."
LoL, is that like an author groupie?! Throwing urself to get a signature at Barnes & Nobles haha
Yah, I think Storm of Swords is easily the best novel of the series.I hardly ever see people on here who like Feast before Dance so thats cool. We have that in common. I enjoyed all the extra side characters from Feast, I am pretty much over Dany and Jon Snow. They are cool characters, don't get me wrong, but at this point, they are so high ranked sometimes it seems like they don't actually personally DO anything and that really bores me. They're to busy leading to have awesome adventures. Davos has become one of my favorites because I feel like I can rely on him to never get to high up on the totem pole and always be going out and having some kind of adventure.
And yah Gordon...pretty much LOL. If I ever meet Rothfuss I'll probably be tripping all over the place, frozen into silence, or just start crying. :/
Wow I'm surprised a bit on the places of a few books, if I had to place the books:1. Storm of Swords with #2 VERY close next to it
2. Game of Thrones
3. Clash of Kings (it was supremely awesome just for Ja'quen & the iron coin that Arya got, plus Jamie loses his sword hand, Brienne shows her swordsmanship that surprises even Jamie, although he was obv. weakened, Robb continues to frustrate Tywin to the point when he makes his dire mistake Tywin makes him pay with the help of that decrepit old Frey who probably couldn't even wield a sword).. the wheels set in motion in 'Clash' eventually result in Tywin never beating Robb in true military battle, like Jamie says 'the poor fool won the battle on the field but lost his war in a bedroom', something like that
4. Feast for Crows & 5. Dance with Dragons are close only because I did not like the way Martin decided not to include many common POV from past books. Its not like how Erikson splits 2 stories in 'Malazan', he just said at the end of the book well u will hear more about the characters ur familiar with in the next book because the book came out longer... The Iron born are extremely interesting & I completely agree about Davis because he's the closest to a "knight" out of all of them yet he comes from a smuggler/common background, not afraid to tell the truth, & realistic in his POV on life. I just wished he mixed it up with POV between 'Feast' & 'Dance'
-To Amber: Yes, many people reject Feast for Crows because Dany, Jon and Tyrion are not there. But I think is beautifully written, and I love all the subtleties, the secret characters and Easter eggs that he put in the novel :) -To Gordon: The only thing you wrote about Clash of Kings that actually happened on Clash of Kings was the Jaqen story. Jaime and Brienne story happens in Storm of Swords, the same with Walder Frey.
If that was my order of preference for the books. Then, my top characters would be:
1. Jon Snow
2. Tyrion
3. Davos
4. Jaime
5. Arya
6. Varys
7. Brienne
8. Littlefinger
9. Theon
10.Roose Bolton
Nelson wrote: "-To Amber: Yes, many people reject Feast for Crows because Dany, Jon and Tyrion are not there. But I think is beautifully written, and I love all the subtleties, the secret characters and Easter eg..."Eh, I got a bad memory, sue me, I still don't think 'Feast' comes close to "Clash' regardless of the secrets or new things introduced, even the title is a metaphor for the result of major battles being fought.
I think u brush off the important things that happened in book 2, deaths & choices of characters that caused everything in a 'storm of swords' to happen, that's why I might forget specifics from one to another, the events leading up to the storm are all foreshadowed in clash.
Everyone has their own opinions & loves, I personally can't see how 'Game of Thrones', a unique book because its not nearly the worst book of the series (unlike many other series, leaning more towards thrillers, fantasy books don't follow this M.O. IMO), can be put below the last 2 books written except for the fact that half the characters are dead comparably speaking lol, to each there own
Each title of each book is metaphor for the events that happen in that book in particular. "Clash" is no the only one. I don't brush off the important thing that happened in book 2. Actually in my previous post I wrote
"I recognize it's because it's a build up book. everything that was build up there, payed off in Storm, that's why Storm is sooo awesome!"
Which is the same thing you just said.
And I put the books in that order because of the entertainment factor they offered me. None of these books are bad books at all. They are amazing. But yes, I found Feast & Dance to be more entertaining than "Games"
Yes, to each their own.
LOL....gimme a break man... obviously every title for just about every book holds some reason why the author named it soU don't think 'A Feast for Crows' (I am NOT indicating the quality of the book) is a metaphor that indicates a result after a major 'Battle' is over & the carrion feed, & here is the result? U loved it! & that's cool, but ur going to pick at the metaphor as well? Whatever u want it to be is cool, but that's how I see it
I've made it clear I make mistakes that others are sure to correct me on, perhaps when u have 3 kids & still try to maintain as much reading as I do u'll understand the flippant attitude I take.
I'm going back & forth between continuing education online & this thread so for me, this is fun lol, I play devils advocate all the time to elicit opinions like the one u just gave, I respect it & everything u've contributed ok? If I implied u 'brushed off anything' & took it as insult, my bad aight? lol
I have not taken it as an insult. But yes, I'm just trying to correct you in your mistakes. That shouldn't be a bad thing. You should understand that a least in a thread that is about "Theories & Speculations" facts should be straight. That's why I'm picking up on every mistake you make. That way I help you and the thread.
That's the problem with the internet discussions. We cannot hear the inflections.
Like I said, I hope I do get corrected, I can barely remember what I did last week lol, but seriously yes words can always be misinterpreted, just making sure U weren't taking insult to my opinionated questions about choices u made. No worries :) I still can't believe u put 'Thrones' that low? Just Robert Baratheon should have garnered more no? I can just see the guy trying to fit in his armor like guys a bit older than me trying to fit back into sports gear & competing at a collegiate level like we used to.
BUT STOP! Not bashing the choice lol. diff. strokes for diff. folks yo.. we've like dominated the last 8 posts lol
@Nelson - It's funny because the reason I liked it so much was because it was less Jon and Dany. (I'll always miss a Lannister POV, they're the best in my opinion) Don't get me wrong, I actually read the series because my interest was in Dany and I thought she was really amazing on the show, but I feel she's a bit of drag at this point and if I have to hear about Daario's tooth one more freaking time. *GAHHHHHHH* LOL. Though, I do think it's true to her age. Which I appreciate about Martin.Never cared much for Jon. I like the mystery that surrounds his character, and I enjoy the Nights Watch and the Wall, but was really happy to see a Samwell POV because I like him exponentially better than Jon. Jon gets under my skin. Always has since GOT.
So Feast was cool for me. I enjoyed all the side characters getting some say and loved that Arya felt like a main focus since she is an easy favorite for me.
If I made a list, it'd probably be something like
1. Storm of Swords
2. Game of Thrones
3. Feast for Crows
4. Clash of Kings
5. Dance With Dragons
Just Robert Baratheon should have garnered more no?LOL @Gordon, he is pretty much the reason I have GOT high on my list. I actually find the Baratheon's very interesting, Renly, Stannis, and Robert are all characters I'd love to read more about and learn more about there ancestors as well.
What u mean? Isn't his tooth gold, hilt & pommel of his weapons? He's got bling bling for the ladies right, lol? (crickets...) ok, I'm really not a chauvinist.Arya, Brienne, & Davis were the main POV that got me thru 'Feast', perhaps I should read it again... I have enuff friggin time before the next book
Amber wrote: "Just Robert Baratheon should have garnered more no?LOL @Gordon, he is pretty much the reason I have GOT high on my list. I actually find the Baratheon's very interesting, Renly, Stannis, and Rob..."
Hey Amber, I've been reading the old posts from the beginning of the thread & it is like reading another novella with all the interesting posts in the beginning of this thread, I highly suggest it for anyone who hasn't, just make sure u give enuff time & Aleve for the diff. opinions... AMBER! haha... Some of ur posts make my head spin lol
I know, I should have a disclaimer in my signature or something. *sigh*Totally out of control over here folks, don't mind me.
I guess I am the only one in love with Asha. I was pissed when HBO changed the name to Yara because the producers felt Osha And Asha too confusing. From the first introduction Asha was a blast. I was not happy with the casting of Asha(Yara), but it has been so long since she was on screen HBO may have recasted.
Asha is cool but I don't know... she hasn't done much. The role has not been recasted.
I rather like Asha (she's certainly my favourite among the Iron Born), and hope she'll continue to play a part in the books. I've been pretty disappointed by Yara though, because it seems like they took a character full of swagger ad charisma and turned her dour and flat.
Actually I quite like Asha myself as well, I hope she gets more play in the future. I agree, out of all the Iron Born she is most certainly the best character among them. I also found the name change stupid. The longer the show goes the more I dislike it. Asha is a much more prominent and important character than Osha, so if any named should have been changed it should have been hers. But HBO decided to play up Osha's character for god's only knows why. Must have liked the actress better.
I will say that I was expecting Asha to be a bit better looking, they made her too Brienne in my opinion. Not every badass chick looks like a dude. It's stupid and a overly stereotypical for my personal tastes. Asha is described as not being very attractive in childhood, but quite lovely in adulthood.
Asha sure got Theon's boat floating, when it could float per say lol & he only remembered her when she was a child.
Exactly. She has more than one interested suiter in the series too. I mean, I'm not saying she is a Cersei or anything, but her physical apperance should be more attractive than some of the other characters they cast and she's not. I mean, they could even use the same actress I'm sure, just doll her up a bit. But no, they purposely make her look like a guy because she's a tomboy and I find that stupid.
I totally envisioned her as an attractive 'tomboy,' I mean she does have to maintain the respect of a whole crew of relatively alpha-males with that type of mentality, but let me rephrase my words... A persons attractiveness can usually be only determined by looks, while sexiness is an attitude + using the traits she was born with to create an 'aura' of lust, I thought she would make her character extremely sexy, perhaps not the Sansa type looks but 'black widow' type persona, does that make sense in regards to the difference between 'attractive/hot' versus 'sexy/desirable'... Dany has a bit of that since she has grown, she is ruthless but sexy at the same time
I think I get what you mean Gordon. She wouldn't be a disney princess beautiful, but something like a femme fatale.Thats pretty much how I see her too. She doesn't necessarily have to be super good looking or anything, (like I said above they could still even keep the same actress) but I seriously think Yara looks like a man half the time and that is so not what I got when I was reading Asha in the books. Personally I thought they left her pretty devoid of femininity, which is a bit dissapointing because she has a clear emotion within her that is very very feminine and I think it sets her apart from some of the other tomboyish characters.
And yes Nelson, Mel is smokin hot.
Hey I just joined this forum so please forgive me if my input is old news but I firmly believe the R+L theory. Just another little side note to support the theory is that Jon had a wet nurse at birth. Which having a wet nurse is needed if your mother is dead. Also there was major disbelief that Ned would cheat on Catlyn because he is to "honorable" which we saw how honorable Ned is seeing he went that way to his grave. Also if the R+L theory is true there is possible insight there for Dany. She is supposed to experience 3 treasons. 1 for blood, 1 for love, and 1 for gold. There are also 3 "mounts" she must ride. 1 to love, one to bed, and one to dread. So the one she beds could be Khal Drogo for she was forced to bed him. 1 to dread being Hizdahr. And 1 to love. Now to love people speculate that being Darrio. I don't believe this because Darrio just isn't a big enough of a player for the 2 to get married. Now back to the treasons. 1 for love, blood, and gold. Jorah may have spied but he never really betrayed. In fact the only treason we may have seen is Viserys for gold (which didn't go his way). So what I speculate is the R+L theory is true and Jon is Royal. Also that him being stabed is a way for him to get out of the NW and the whole thing was set up for that reason. So now I believe that Jon will start some adventure that requires him to gather forces but all of that will take a long time....So in the meantime Dany comes back to Westros and hooks up with who? you guessed it Rheagar. But as time goes on it turns out Rheagar isn't as great as we thought. So Dany experiences a treason one for blood...Rheagar. And the reason his is for blood is because they share the same blood. Rheagar wants the throne for his own. Ploys to get rid of Dany so Dany hooks up with Jon and maybe falls in love? Being her third "mount" finally for love. that still leaves 1 or two other treasons for Dany as far as what they are I don't know. Also sorry this is so long....haha
Welcome Karlis, I do believe Nelson is right & u meant Aegon right? On another note, I don't think this messes up ur theory about all the Jon Snow talk, don't get me wrong he is an important character & all but for me I'm more interested in Arya, Jamie, Dany, Sandor Clegane (he's always been a favorite of mine... perhaps he saves Sansa somehow? dunno how but I can dream), & ultimately I'd like to know who Vaery's really is & why he takes such an active hand in the Targaryeons. I think Dany was betrayed by 'her bear', I mean informing on her which secondarily led to her losing her husband & baby is a pretty big deception no?
But, Welcome to the group, I only joined about half way thru but its a great group because we have 2 of the foremost experts in GoT history & books lol... Cheers
G
yeah sorry. I don't know why I put Rhaegar. but thank you I love theories. I also love the hound. Theres a ton of story left it will be interesting to see where Martin makes the pieces fall
We love many characters but I think is pretty clear that the "protagonists" of the story right now are Jon, Dany and Tyrion. I think Varys must be connected to the Blackfyres or something. Maybe Aegon is also a Blackfyre and not a true Targaryen. Therefore the "Dance with Dragons" title.
I think set up is perfectly there for Sandor to kill is brother in the next book :D at last!
I don't anybody to "save" Sansa. I want her to do it for herself. She's already learning from a master in deceive.
three heads has the dragon . . . three fires must you light . . .
one for life and one for death and one to love . . .
three mounts must you ride . . .
one to bed and one to dread and one to love . . .
three treasons will you know . . .
once for blood and once for gold and once for love . . .
So here is the prophecy, lets give it some talking room, I don't think we've discussed it in this thread yet.
From what I read its widely excepted that the first of every three part prophecy has already occured.
Fire For Life: When Dany "birthed" her dragons
Mount for Bed: A lot of people say Kahl Drogo. I pretty much support that, but in my personal opinion, I think more specifically it references Silver, whome she rode and accepted on her wedding day which sealed her fate to become sexually involved with Drogo. In a very literal sense, she rides her mount to bed.
Treason For Blood: Mirri Maz Duur is believe the one who betrayed her for blood. She betrayed Dany after she was saved because she still blamed her for the attack on her village and the loss of many of her loved ones. Thus betraying her for revenge against her own family. This is what Dany personally believes herself.
Now the second part:
Fire for Death: I personally believe this was the burning and destruction of the House of the Undying. I believe this is widely accepted by fans as well.
Mount to Dread: I follow the line of thinking this is Drogon and that it pretty much just occured in the last novel. She literally mounts Drogon and is taken into a dreadful situation by meeting Kahl Jhaqo. Jhaqo has disliked Dany ever since she stopped them from raping there Lamb People prisoners. He is one of the men who participates in the rape and murder of Dany's servent Ereoh and after Drogo's death breaks away to build his own Khalasar.
Treason For Gold: This is where it gets speculative. I have a hard time choosing whether I support the idea that this is Jorah. As he did betray her, or if something else will happen, like a betrayal from Daario Naharis. Then we have Brown Ben who turned his cloak on her himself and joined Yunkai after he lost faith in Dany's ability to control her dragons. He most certainly was paid for this, as thats how mercenery groups work. (They don't do shit for free LOL) Plus, we now know he's in some form of cahoots possibly with Tyrion, who has promised him riches in exchange for making him Lord of Casterly Rock. It's hard to say how Dany would react to something like this considering her history with Lannisters isn't exactly good. (Then again if she is going to like ANY Lannister it's bound to be Tyrion.)
And the Third Part:
Now this is purely speculative and likely to be primarily opinion as I don't think the third part of the prophecy has happened yet.
Fire for Love: I guess a lot of people believe this will have something to do with Jon Snow. I don't know. I couldn't actually support that textually, haven't really picked up on that in the tragectory of the story myself and considering everything else in this prophecy has proven to be pretty literal for me, I'm more inclined to believe this will have something to do with the Prince that Was Promised and Fighting the Others. If there is one thing Dany loves it is her "children" by which I mean, her people. If Westeros were under extreme duress because of the Others, I think she might sacrifice some, if not all, of what she has worked for to get there, simply to save the civilians and those who cannot save themselves. Outside of that, she might hook up with Bennerro even, who supports Dany as Azor Ahai a big religious figure in their faith. If she freed the Slaves of R'hllor with him I could easily see it leading to fire, lots of fire, but she would be doing it out of love to free those who apperantly can't free themselves.
Mount To Love: I'm not sure what she will ride at this point honestly, but I assume she will come across another animal to mount. She will be riding this beast when she meets the one person she really can love. I don't know who it will be or what she will ride, but if she does meet Jon Snow and she is riding on something...yah. I'd almost consider that a sealed deal. I'll definitely be looking for that in the future of this series and in my rereads now. Since I'm kinda holding out for something awesome to happen to Gendry, I'd almost throw him out there, but I admit, it's wishful thinking. Their's just no way I can make a real educated guess who this could be or if that person has even been introduced to us. I might even hold out for Jorah. I kinda have this gut feeling though that she'll fall in love with someone who isn't Westerosi at all though.
Treason For Love: Gosh, I really don't like getting out there without much support, but here it goes. Betrayed for love...hmm...I'll say, at this point, I think it will be Barristan Selmy. He's already considered letting Skahaz kill Daario for Dany's own good and that is a straight up betrayal, but he doesn't go through with it or anything so it's a bit questionable. But it does show that he might be willing to do something out of character simply for Dany's greater good, even if she might consider it treason in the end. Then again, their are so many open possibilities there. Who knows, maybe the Unsullied and other Slaves turn against Dany to create there own democratic government, betraying her in essence for love of country and love of freedom. Hell, maybe someone like Missandei ends up taking leadership from her, she's actually pretty well spoken.
I dont know...obviously way to open for me, I'm horrible at being that theoretical. LOL
And yah...sorry...long again and please excuse any typos I may have made.
