Valar Morghulis--Valar Dohaeris discussion
A Song of Ice and Fire
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Theories & Speculations: SPOILERS for all books
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Nelson
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Aug 15, 2013 05:16PM
I want Tyrion to ride one of the dragons! he always liked dragons :D
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Do the Lannisters have Valyrian blood though?
Celise wrote: "Do the Lannisters have Valyrian blood though?"Didn't the Mad King Aerys have a thing for Joanna Lannister? That's where most Tyrion-on-a-dragon-theories come from.
Evilynn wrote: "Celise wrote: "Do the Lannisters have Valyrian blood though?"Didn't the Mad King Aerys have a thing for Joanna Lannister? That's where most Tyrion-on-a-dragon-theories come from."
Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't believe the Lannisters have Valyrian blood its just Aygar (spelling?) had a thing for her after winning a joust after she was betrothed to Brandon Stark & than kidnapped her or forced her thru his power as prince to the red keep, That's where the whole revolt started which ended with Robert king, & Jamie as the Kingslayer... Unless at some point between the joust & 'kidnappin' they had children no lannister has their blood, the Targaryon's liked to keep it in the family historically... I guess they didn't read the science articles about increased chances of chromosomal damage & retardation with in-breeding lol? King Aerys is a prime example of madness created most likely from in-breeding for generations, Brandon & Rickon didn't meet fast deaths
Celise wrote: "Do the Lannisters have Valyrian blood though?"The Baratheons have Targaryen blood, and the Daynes have all the features (pale blond, violet eyes) so they might also have valyrian blood.
According to Barristan there's the possibility. Aerys had a thing for Joanna and possibly do something with her. I guess Tywin had enough reasons to be so brutal when he sacked King's Landing xD
Whoa Kids - Slow down. LOL.@Nelson - yah I like the metaphorical aspects as well. Plus, you have a good point, its a bit more satisfying than a magic sword. Not that Magic Swords are sweet. LOL.
I don't like Dany for AA either, mostly because I just can't imagine adding another title to her already ridiculously long one. I mean seriously, people are going to need to a take breather after they announce her if she keeps going.
@Evilynn - some people do think that Tyrion my be a Targaryen because Aerys was interested in Joanna, and in fact wanted to marry her before he was forced to marry his sister. Apperantly Aerys took some "liberties" during the bedding at Tywin and Joanna's wedding, but thats the only inference we get. It doesn't even say they ever had sex, and IF they did on that evening, he'd still only be the father of Jaime and Cersei - a much more likely occurance than Tyrion in my opinion, though I don't follow that line of theory to begin with. Tyrion, Cersei, and Jaime, are the product of incest as well, that's why they have the deformities that might suggest they are Targaryen. Joanna and Tywin were first cousins. In my opinion, this is the reason why Cersei and Jaime suffer some mental disorganization and Tyrion has physical deformities.
I could be wrong of course, but this seems the most logical conclusion based on the present information so it's what I follow.
@Celise - it's unknown if they have any trace amount of Valyrian blood, based off what we do know, they don't.
@Gordon - Rhaegar had a thing for Lyanna Stark, not Joanna Lannister. Rhaegar's father, Aerys, had a thing for Joanna Lannister. I think you definitely got confused on this front. Lyanna was betrothed to Robert Baratheon, and she was the little Sister of Brandon Stark and Ned Stark, Jon Snow's father who gets his head chopped off. Rhaegar met Lyanna at the Tourney of Harrenhall where he crowned her the Queen of Love and Beauty after winning the joust. It is unknown why he named her this, only that it was considered scandalous because he skipped over his own wife Princess Elia Martell of Dorne. About a year later, Rhaegar abducted Lyanna, it's unclear if she went of her own accord or if she was kidnapped, but many like to believe that Lyanna and Rhaegar fell in true love. He eventually took Lyanna to be kept in the Tower of Joy where she was eventually found dying by Ned and Howland Reed, after they killed much of the remaining Kingsgaurd. The revolt occured because when Brandon, who was betrothed to Catelyn Tully (stark), found out that Rhaegar had taken her he turned and rode straight to the Red Keep and called out for Rhaegar to duel him. Aerys found this to be treasonist and took him prisoner along with his company. Aerys then called the fathers of Brandon and all his companions to the Red Keep to face trial, eventually killing all of them except Ethan Glover (I believe) After he basically murdered all these men, he demanded that Jon Arryn turn over Ned Stark as well, which he refused to do. Since Robert, also a ward of Jon Arryn, is actuall partially Targaryen as well, Jon Arryn raised his banners and his bannermen joined the Revolt to place Robert on the Throne. Ned then took his brother's place and married Cat instead. This sealed the alliance with the Riverlands, the North, and the Vale, thus giving them the power to overthrow the Targaryen dynasty.
Now that I covered that...sorry, super long. Joanna Lannister is the mother of Cersei, Jaime, and Tyrion. She was dead before all of this ever happened.
Targaryen's practiced incest to keep there Valyrian blood pure, they believe it contributes to there ability to ride dragons, which may or may not be true. Lannister though, also have a recent history of incest. This is why Joff has the same madness. Though Aerys wasn't always mad, I think he always had the capabilities. He mostly lost it after he suffered from being a POW in the Defiance of Duskendale, around 276AL or so. This gave him PTSD and thus he became known as the Mad King.
ooops get mixed up between book and show sometimes. I dont think the mad king was mad because of his genes I think he was just mad, like rhaegar was the man and he was inbred and look at our friend ramsey for example, hes not inbred. our science doesnt matter in westeros lol
lightbringer I think is the sword that stannis has, aemon said to sam that the sword only glows therefore I would think in the riggt arms it will flame, so I think lightbringer is liggtbringer. I hope the nights watch collapse now I dont know of jon will have time for them if he lives and if he dies I hope stannis rips them.apart.
Jamie remarks in the books how tyrion had a more silver or gold hair than him n cersei, so there is a possibilty he is targaryan with silver hair but passes as a blonde lannister. also tywin said that tyrion is not his son and always despised him, so he could be the son of the mad kibg spared on joannas wishes, that cluld easily be coincednce I know.
Amber wrote: "Whoa Kids - Slow down. LOL.@Nelson - yah I like the metaphorical aspects as well. Plus, you have a good point, its a bit more satisfying than a magic sword. Not that Magic Swords are sweet. L..."
HA, umm yea, schooling us 'kids' LOL, it seems I have gotten names messed up but I really meant to say all that LoL, not nearly, great synopsis, I meant to focus on Lyanna & Rhaegar having an issue/True love that could have caused mixing of blood but I could have sworn that Cat had nothing to do with the red keep therefore needing the explanation from Jamie, & also implying Brandon had issue with Lyanna being snatched (who I mixed up with Joanna) so he rides off to get her back, take it from there Amber lol... the intricate web we humans weave for power, why we all love 'GoT', except lil Rob Arryn still getting breast fed is creepy cuz I've run into parents that the child can actual request milk... whoa, time to ween I think. After that nice vision, I'll go back & reread a couple parts of a few books to get my flowchart right, or just have another correct my mistakes LoL, good stuff
I just dont think that incest always means madness, I jist dont because in westeros there are enough mad people everywhere. And Jamie I believe is ruthless yes but has honour as we see in the books and in how he killed the mad king to save the people. Tyrion more so with hos deformity but hes the only lannister or targ imp so its not a forgone conclusion. And hes pretty head screwed on. To survive in Westeros you need some sort of madness or ruthlessness. Thats why tywin beat robb without wonning a battle
I think you're confused about Stannis' Lightbringer.Maester Aemon asked Sam if it not only shines but if it also radiates heat. To which Sam responds that Stannis' sword only shines, it radiates no heat. That's why in that moment Maester Aemon seems sure in his guess that Daenerys is AA, not Stannis.
The Night's Watch must survive or all of Westeros will be completely doomed.
We should remember the oath.
"Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death. I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children. I shall wear no crowns and win no glory. I shall live and die at my post. I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers, the shield that guards the realms of men. I pledge my life and honor to the Night's Watch, for this night and all nights to come. "
"The sword in the darkness...."
"The fire that burns against the cold..."
"The light that brings the dawn..."
@Colly - no problem, it happens all the time to lots of people. It isn't your fault, the show writers are the ones who make it confusing for us people who will actually read. LOL!However, I was just doing a bit of research on Aerys since we were having this discussion, and I agree, he probably wasn't mad from inbreeding. Though his line has plenty of inbreeding in it, Aerys isn't the direct result of incest. His father, Jaehaerys, refused to have an arranged marriage and married for love. His sister married into the Baratheon line. Jaehaerys father, Aegon V, also married for love, so the incestual marriage of Aerys and his sister was actually the first in generations. So, thats confirmation, his madness was pretty much developed after his stint as a prisoner of war.
Also - Dayne's have the silver hair trait as well, it isn't exclusive to Targaryen's so it's not the best evidence. *shrug* Plus two blonde people having a child with extremely blonde or nearly white hair, isn't exactly that surprising....LOL. Considering Tywin was Aerys hand during the time, and Joanna stayed at Casterly Rock, I think it would be difficult for them to pull off a secret tryst or for Tywin to stand for one that isn't secret. That's just my opinion though.
Collymcl wrote: "ooops get mixed up between book and show sometimes. I dont think the mad king was mad because of his genes I think he was just mad, like rhaegar was the man and he was inbred and look at our frie..."
Its funny u bring that up, in typical D & D books I'd say yes, science plays no part with 'magic'.i.e. the Dresden files which although I'd classify as 'young adult', I love the series. I can't get past my profession & think in-breeding leads to anything but weakening ur family line as time goes on, 'flip a coin every time a new Targaryn is born'
BUT in the 'GoT' magic is very differently represented. It seems represented only in specific things or living creatures, not a thing u study traditionally: Whites, wargs, dragons, mythical creatures from up north. While I think Milasandre & Thorus use a combination of unknown science with 'magic', there are specific references to advanced scientific knowledge used to get a point across: Greek Fire, 'potions', using a form of simple gunpowder to create a huge explosion, BUT also shades born to kill, dead characters rising again, etc.. I'm curious if Mil can really raise a dragon with the right 'component needs'? The old magic is re-awakening & it wants to play, & I need to concentrate on work, hahaha, great thread
yea well thats good about the oath actually dont know how I didnt see that. Im just in a strop with the watch atm. But the nights watch has fell before and westeros survived and its a matter of time before the wall falls again I think. I dont think grrm will have the final battle on the wall. and if the wall goes the watch goes. Then it will be up to AA whoever it may be to fix things, lets go ser barristan ever consider him :P
Erm...the Wall has never fallen, its been there for over 8000 years, and previous to that, there was nothing. It's believed to have been manned by the Nights Watch since shortly after its construction. This was all done at the end of a time period called "The Long Night."I kinda like to think of it as our "Dark Ages" period.
The Night's Watch was however corrupted for a short period of time by The Night's King, the 13th Lord Commander, but it never fell either.
God...I need to get a life. *sigh*
The Watch has fell before? when? the wall fell before? when? They have had problems before but the Watch has never cease to exist since it was founded it. The Wall has never fallen either.
Remember the enemies are "The Others" who have not made an appearance since "The Long Night" ended.
If something like a "worst case scenario" must happen then for me it would be.
1. The Wall falls (for the first time since it construction)
2. AA (Jon for me) reassembles the Night's Watch (Lightbringer for me) and leads the fight to protect the realms of men.
I would hate that The Night's Watch ceased to exist and then just one guy with a magic sword fixes everything.
Like I said before I really prefer to think that AA defeated "The Others" in the "Battle for the Dawn" by leading a great army of warriors "The Night's Watch"(Lightbringer for me)
That whole thing about him forging a sword is just another way to say that he founded "The Night's Watch" and he was possibly its first Lord Commander.
And the whole thing about sacrificing his wife and love, is, like the rest of the legend a metaphor for the level of commitment and disciple that's necessary to keep "The Night's Watch" in an optimal state of alert, against an enemy that cannot be destroyed but only defeated.
That's why The Night's Watch right now is in such a state. The level of commitment and disciple among its members is really low. I really believe Jon will come back as AA Reborn and with that demonstration he will reform/reforge "The Night's Watch" to his former glory, in preparedness for the incoming battle against "The Others". He already literally sacrificed his love (Ygritte) in his devotion/loyalty to Watch.
I could totally see that. Makes plenty of sense, plus I like the metaphorical aspects.I've always thought this was a cool theory, but never really followed it. You made me sway there a little for a second though, convincing!
Especially will be convinced if Mel has anything to do with saving Jon.
I've never thought about Barristan Selmy being AA, the only other person I considered was maybe Gendry. There is just something so off about his character for me, he seems important for some reason. I like to imagine he might be the son of Robert Baratheon and Ashara Dayne from the Tourney at Harrenhall, his birth is mirky enough to make it work in the timeline. Since I kinda always thought Lightbringer would be Dawn, that would make him a strong enough candidate to weild it.
But gotta admit, that Jon theory is looking pretty strong right now..........
It's the perfect set up because Mel is already at the Wall. Now she just need to realize who Jon really is. She always takes the visions in the fire in a very literal way. That's why she's always making this little/big mistakes she needs to interpret them a little more. And I think that's always been a constant in this series "Don't take the things as they are given to you"
The Gallant savior with the Magic Sword legend sounds really cool but it's also very cliche and that's something that GRRM has always tried to keep away from.
By killing our beloved Ned in the first book, focusing more on the politics than in actual battles or magic events, etc. Subvert tropes is his agenda xD
Of course maybe next book he goes the classic "Wheel of Time/Lord of the Rings" road and shuts my mouth D:
I doubt he 'shuts ur mouth' Nelson, GRRM is nothing but unpredictable, it's crazy how many great/in-depth characters he's killed off, like tru life no character is safe from 'going back to the mud'... By the time Arya can take her revenge her list will contain like 1 person, that list was quite the foreshadow, & whoever mentioned joining John at the wall, very possible, she thinks everyone in her family is dead. Who thought Ned's maxim of 'the pack survives while the lone wolf dies' was dead wrong? Any thoughts on Rickon & Osha's future?
Yes, I hope he never shuts my mouth by going the cliche way D: that has been done a thousand times. The only thing I can think of Rickon is that he'll now be the heir of Winterfell along with Sansa. She will teach him everything he needs to now about survive in the worlds of politics and all that. They will preserve the lineage.
I really doubt that Bran and Arya will ever come back to their normal lives. (if they survive of course :P)
While researching, Samwell found that the Children of the Forest defeated the White walkers last time out. That would put Bran in the forefront of that war. The False prince I believe will be Euron. Jon can survive with or without the red woman. I do not think Jaime will survive his meeting with Stoneheart. Tyrion will become Dany's hand.
Bran will be super powerful once he learns well enough how to see through the trees and control the crows etc. He would have eyes everywhere! not only in space but through time also. BEST INTELLIGENCE AGENCY EVER! :D I don't want Jaime to die :( He still needs to kill Cersei.
Stephen wrote: "While researching, Samwell found that the Children of the Forest defeated the White walkers last time out. That would put Bran in the forefront of that war. The False prince I believe will be Euro..."I don't think Dany would ever appoint a lannister hand, only his intelligence & wit makes him valuable, plus Selmy's opinion holds strong sway & he has no Lannister love. Bran def. be the shiznit, 'the guy behind the guy' lol. IMO Jaime will not die so easily after his experiences & use the assumed weakness of missing a hand to its full bloody advantage...
Who thought Ned's maxim of 'the pack survives while the lone wolf dies' was dead wrong?Okay, I've been thinking that since square one. It was just an instant eye roll for me. I know Ned has no way of actually knowing it, but its a fact that wolves have better chances of survival when singular or in mated pairs. Packs scare away large game and social structure of large groups is more violent.
I don't think Bran will ever come back either, and if Arya does, she has suffered so much trauma it will never be the same. In my opinion, her return would be of little value, thats not the life she has ever wanted, now it's one she probably couldn't lead even if she changed her mind. In my opinion at least.
She will be an Assassin like Jaqen and travel the world :) From the first she told us that life has a maiden is not her thing. I think Dany is already pass that kind of thinking. She won't be like "Yikes! you're a Lannister I hate you" that was little girl Dany. After the events of ADWD she's no longer a girl in any form.
Amber wrote: "Who thought Ned's maxim of 'the pack survives while the lone wolf dies' was dead wrong?Okay, I've been thinking that since square one. It was just an instant eye roll for me. I know Ned has no ..."
I can accept ur doubts, but technically wolves are pack hunters unless they are starving & even then, violence is the point no? A campfire ain't gonna scare a hungry pack away, but u strike me as a bit dubious/cynical in a good way no? I was just reading the 'Whose Jon's Mom' thread, it was pretty funny, I really have no clue so I didn't contribute
The again I oit after the wall was a mistake I never meant to write it. The watch being corrupted by the nights king is what I meant by fell.
I dont think Jamie is doomed with lady stoneheart, I think his povs with payne ave lead to a possible trial by combat, with brienne perhaps? I just dont think he will die yet. Dont have a clue what rickon will do, if anything! but that will be clear soon.
Bran has to be leading to something amazing, I like to think he has already done things in the show like he ckuld be mormonts raven for example but I just hope hes ready to make a huge move against the others.
I just believe that this book will be the last one surronding "the game of thrones" and then the wall will be brought down and westeros will be left to fight winter and that Jon, Dany the dragons and everyone whos story has been building will face it. I dont think the battle will be fought on the wall but south of it. However alot of shit will have to happen if im.right so I just dont know.
Tyrion I believe will force hos way into danys council, not her hand but will use his hate for his family to his advantage, and fain her casterly rock.
There is so much stuff to be resolved in what is to be two books. I think we will see a comin togeher of the starks again however. we deserve that at least lol
I was joking about ser barristan being AA amber lol bit I bet he ckuld walk north of the wall and kick winters ass alone
Selmy a tyrion hater? I doubt that. Only tyrion stood up to Joffrey and Barristan the Bold would have notice that. Dany will be glad to get her Bear back. Tyrion will have rescued the hostages, including Daario( alas I think Daario will be killed somehow that will make both Selmy and the bear happy.) Tyrion will hold the key to building the alliances Dany will need.
Stephen wrote: "Selmy a tyrion hater? I doubt that. Only tyrion stood up to Joffrey and Barristan the Bold would have notice that. Dany will be glad to get her Bear back. Tyrion will have rescued the hostages, i..."Tyrion wasn't even there when Barriston got booted, & I can see him being useful due to his wit & knowledge, but Selmy has even described him very negatively, 'monster, imp' but he might change his opinion once meeting him, but juat regarding Selmy & as clever as Tyrion That 'Once a traitor, most will always regard as shady, esp an 'honorable knight' like Selmy who knows his family's history. Look at the excuses peeps use on Jon because of what he did, he's seen differently & his wildling past is just another excuse haters use on him, turncoat, etc.. Obv he was stabbed for a reason, even though I think we all believe he was doing the right thing to survive or simply his empathy towards those he lived with & woman he fell for. By the way, anyone else LOVE when he beheaded Flint? Couldn't wait for him to bite it. Dany has the ruthlessness now to use him as she sees fit, & I would be upset if Tyrion doesnt continue the way he manipulates & plots because that's his strongest character trait, no matter who. She doesn't 'need' many people anymore, they need her, Selmy himself has prob forgotten more than anyone knows about Westeros & it's history (Danys own thoughts), he's seen what T only loves to read & dream about. I hope no additional horrible things happen to him, but GRRM loves to ensure he rarely gets credit for great things he's done.
As much as Tyrion hated his family it wasn't until his dad pushes him so far past sanity (in bed with Shae after his public hate of prostitutes) Jamie admitting his 1st wife wasn't a Ho & confesses to him does Tyrion realize he wants his family to truly burn.. I love Tyrion, in all the books before ADWD or the death of Joffrey he knew it was better to show family strength to others, while privately voicing his hates when beneficial, he knows his famy name is the only reason he can be so ruthlessly clever & still be 'alive' - most deformities as u know, are death sentences or a freakshow life without noble background & even then, people underestimate him at their own peril.
Yeah well now that you lot have convinced me towards the potential importance of the nights watch, how will he fix it? Will the noghts watch now consost of the wildlings etc? will. He cannot fight woth the men he has as some of them stabbed him.amd ghere isnt even many of them. Just a few questions on some.outside characters, whats the blackfish doing do you think? and edmure what will be his fate as he seemed unimportant but is still there.
Also benjen, I think he has to be alive, mainly because of the tv show, they wouldnt show him if he was a short term character who mysteriously vanished never to be heard of again.
Collymcl wrote: "Yeah well now that you lot have convinced me towards the potential importance of the nights watch, how will he fix it? Will the noghts watch now consost of the wildlings etc? will. He cannot fight ..."I don't know if anyone mentioned this or solved it already... not to say any specific names! But don't u think Cold Hands is/was/continues to be Benjen? A personal white to help a Stark? who else would be in that list?
Yeah well I have heard the coldhands theories before but they are inconclusive. and I know I shouldbt base theories on the show but if they included him for a reason its not to be coldhands as hes not in the show.
Just before Samwell climbs out of the well Bran recalls a old Nan story of the Night King And his corpse queen. Maybe Coldhands is the offspring. I do not think it is Benjen, I think coldhand is very old.
yeah think it says bran didnt recognise him, even if his face is shrowded he mite have recognosed something of benje
Collymcl wrote: "Yeah well I have heard the coldhands theories before but they are inconclusive. and I know I shouldbt base theories on the show but if they included him for a reason its not to be coldhands as hes ..."GRRM is defined as inconclusive until its in the book & even then its not because what over or can pop up again lol
I'm sure I'll be corrected but I remember reading about 'cold hands' in a timeline that would place him in this next season from what I know of the show. He pops up to help Bran way beyond the wall to finish his final leg of the journey & when he actually meets the 'source' of his dreams in ADWD. So if ur basing it off the show I believe he'd show up this season, u def could be right & the show won't have a 'cold hands' & just have Benjan show up to help Bran at some point? Who knows with the show, its an awesome show but there are large inconsistences as expected but the writers make the series great & I enjoy the differences
No coldhands should have already been in the show but they could still add him. You have to remeber though there is no strong evidence linking coldhands to benjen exceot he was in the watch before and is helping bran. I hooe Benjen and coldhands are different entities just because it would mean if Benjen is alive hed ave a pretty cool story to tell
We really shouldn't think that the things that happen in the show will have repercussions in the books. For example they have already killed characters that are still alive in the books and that according to GRRM still have a role to play in the story. Besides that, remember when the Reeds should have already be with Bran and Rickon at the end of season 2 but they appeared at the beginning of season 3? Yep, there's actually no reason to believe that the same won't happen with Coldhands. They are adapting the story as a whole. Not in the structure of "One book, one season."
But, the show is the show. It's a whole other animal and we shouldn't take clues from it if we're only interested in "Books story".
I believe that Benjen and Coldhands are different characters. I'm sure Benjen will come back and he will bring huge revelations concerning The Others.
I have to agree about Jon Snow's parentage (Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark). The signs are all there:1) Rhaegar and Lyanna disappeared together to the Tower of Joy early in Robert's Rebellion.
2) At the end of Robert's Rebellion, Eddard and his companions find three of the Kingsguard at the Tower of Joy: Lord Commander Ser Gerold Hightower, Ser Oswell Whent, and Ser Arthur Dayne. The reasons for their presence and the ensuing fight are unknown, but it can be presumed that they were protecting someone.
3) Robb, Sansa, Bran, and Rickon are all said to have Tully features. It is said that Arya looks like Lyanna and that Jon resembles Arya. If Lyanna was Jon's mother, it would explain this resemblance.
4) In the eighth Eddard chapter of A Game of Thrones - as Ned contemplates the significance of King Robert's bastards - Ned's thoughts drift to Jon Snow, as well as to his sister Lyanna, the promise he made her, and to Rhaegar Targaryen, implying some link between the three individuals.
If these theories come to be true, that would make Jon Snow (Jon Targaryen) next in line to the Iron Throne after Aegon VI Targaryen. Sorry Daenerys, but it seems you're out of luck.
Re: The Sword in the Darkness, it had better be Obsidian, or it will be useless. Only Sam knows that, firsthand, at this moment as all the ancient maesters who might have known are now dead. There maybe some knowledge of it still at Old Town, so I'm holding out for a miracle reunion at the Wall between Jon and Sam.
Jon still would be a bastard and because of that he wouldn't be next in line to the Throne, he would be more like a Brynden Rivers. Sam is not the only one with that knowledge, several of his brothers in the Watch now know about it. Jon also knows about it. Not all the maesters in Oldtown that have this knowledge are now dead. For example, Archmaester Marwyn and his group know about it. and many, many other maesters know about it but are not vocal, they reject this kind of knowledge for reasons yet undisclosed.
Hopefully, they will soon find their tongues. I mean... soon, already!
Sure something big will happen in Oldtown soon that's why Sam and Jaqen are there :)
Yea kinda lost to whats next for sam meself! should be good thoughI hope and think Jon will be the sons of Rhaegar and Lyanna but the link with the Iron throne is pointless as he is probably Azor Ahai reborn and therefore his battle is not for the throne but to save Westeros. As for Aegon, is he even the real deal? "the false dragon". And dany has dragons so I wouldnt want to tell her shes not next in line
I am kinda lost on the Jon being the offspring of Rhaegar & Lyanna. How much time elasped between her kidnapping & Rhaegar's death on the Trident? So far there has been three tales of Jon's heritage and none even hint that Eddard is not his father.
1. Not enough time for Ned to bring a full developed child to Winterfell. 2. Jon & Robb are contemporary.
3. Ned's reluctance to talk about Jon's origins
4. the fact that as you say there are several stories about Ned going around with a child and meeting ladies, etc. Yet, none of those stories can be confirmed in anyway
5. Rhaegar giving the flower to Lyanna at the tournament.
6. Dany's vision of Rhaegar in the House of he Undying
7. The blue flower vision in the House of the Undying
8. Ned's promise
9. the room full of roses where Ned found Lyanna at the Tower of Joy.
10. The three heads of the dragon.
11. The fact that Ned is a man of honor 100% He's a fucking saint.
There's so many clues is ridiculous. There's only two outcomes: R+L = J ends up being true, or ends up being the biggest red herring ever.
Sorry to role back the conversation guys, just reading through these from over the weekend.but technically wolves are pack hunters unless they are starving
Not really, they can be pack hunters or they can be solo hunters. Even when not in times of extreme starvation, wolves fair better when hunting in pairs. They are an apex predator, which means they kinda get free will to hunt however they feel. Since wolfpacks are generally made up of a mated pair and there offspring, depending on how old there offspring is usually dictates whether or not they hunt as a pack or not. Once they have fully taught there pups how to fend for themselves they usually leave and form there own families. It's quite interesting to read about. (This is in reference to the gray wolf so maybe we are talking different breeds..dunno)
And yah...I'm kinda cynical sometimes...sorry about that. LOL.
But don't u think Cold Hands is/was/continues to be Benjen? A personal white to help a Stark? who else would be in that list?
I think he is definitely a Stark. I think the other leading theory was Bran the Builder...can't remember now. But a lot of people believe he is not Benjen because one of the Children of the Forest say he died "ages ago" or something like that. Hmm...need to look that up again.
Personally, I really like Stephen's idea that he is the offspring of the Night's King...thats a badass idea I never heard or thought of!
I'm sure I'll be corrected but I remember reading about 'cold hands' in a timeline that would place him in this next season
No this is correct. Coldhand's shows up as Bran exits the other side of the wall through a secret passageway that is shown to him by Samwell. Since we ended as Bran crossed through that threshold, Coldhand's could still make an apperance. Though in my opinion, they should have shown him waiting for Bran and it would have been cool if Sam mentioned him. I think there was enough break in Sam's story for him to have met Coldhands with out it showing up on the show and finally made his trek back to the Wall. It doesn't cover much with Sam and Coldhands anyway, so no biggy on cutting that. The bulk of his character is with Bran.
Still wouldn't be surprised if they just cut it even though I think that would be an absolute shame and horrible horrible choice.
But, the show is the show. It's a whole other animal and we shouldn't take clues from it if we're only interested in "Books story".
I agree, never take the show as cannon. Except I do think GRRM might have confirmed one suspicion about Reek. (bleck) Since he wrote that episode and I've read that he finds it super weird so many people seem interested in knowing if Ramsay actually did remove that appendage. It's hinted at a bit - so I kinda consider it true.
Yes...I'm a total hypocrite. You may now stone me.
The Sword in the Darkness, it had better be Obsidian, or it will be useless.
Or it could be Valyrian steel, that kills Other's as well. We also don't know if Dawn would kill an Other or not as it is made of meteor rock or something similar that no other sword in the entire story is made of.
If these theories come to be true, that would make Jon Snow (Jon Targaryen) next in line to the Iron Throne after Aegon VI Targaryen.
This is just simply wrong. Aegon would still be heir before Jon no matter if Jon was legitamized or not. He was born before Jon was and his parents were married highborns. Jon will never be a rightful heir to the Iron Throne, he will always be a bastard and currently, even Aegon is not rightful heir, because the Targaryen Dynasty was overthrown and now the Baratheon's are the one's offering heirs. If anyone is the "rightful" heir, as in by Westerosi law, it is Stannis Baratheon. End of Story.
Stephen wrote: "I am kinda lost on the Jon being the offspring of Rhaegar & Lyanna. How much time elasped between her kidnapping & Rhaegar's death on the Trident? So far there has been three tales of Jon's herita..."Rhaegar abducts Lyanna in 281 AL and Robert slays Rhaegar at the Trident in 283 depending on months 1 to 2 years.
You can read tons of essays online about why people believe R+L it's literally one of the most discussed topics in ASOIAF forums. I think Westeros.org is working on thread number 35 or something all filled with literally 100's discussion responses.
and LOL @Nelson. I will admit, I pray that at the end of ASOIAF I will be having a fish dinner.
HAHAHA... that's the mass correction & opinion giving I was hinting at :) & I meant cynical in a good way, I'm the same with many life perspectives. But u back what u say is true & indicate an opinion when it is, so I enjoy reading ur responses.P.S. We may be talking about diff breeds OR even MORE LIKELY LOL, I'm letting werewolf hierarchy (Mercy Thompson/Rachel Morgan) or any shapeshifter community (Kate Daniel series) lead my thoughts, all the books about them stress 'The Pack' with an alpha male, leading, yada yada. Hehe
Personally I feel I'm rather out of control sometimes, but I'll take the compliment. LOL!!I definitely see the differences in our line of thinking, I wasn't thinking anything in the form of werewolves when I agreed that the whole pack survives mantra was silly. On that front, totally.
We can't really even say that Direwolves wouldn't be similar, it's impossible for me to even guess what there social habits were like realistically and they may have been closer to a werewolf easily.
I mean, maybe even historically these beasts were so intellegent that the whole idea of lycanthropy evolved from them before extinction, hmm...thats something to study up on. Wonder if there is any real life correllation on that front.
hmm.
I was listening to the Dance audio today and it got me thinking. Victarion is sailing the Iron Fleet out to "get" Dany.People really don't talk about the Ironborn when they discuss the dragon heads. But...
Martin does seem to put a LOT of work into the POV chapters featuring those from the Iron Islands, for it all to turn out to be side plots.
