Valar Morghulis--Valar Dohaeris discussion
A Song of Ice and Fire
>
Theories & Speculations: SPOILERS for all books
Eyehavenofilter wrote: "Jon wrote: "I watched an interview with Hodor (OK, the actor) and he said his favorite theory is that Hodor is a Clegane brother and when he was little, Gregor - in a similiar vain to when he burne..."damn.. I meant throwing people out the window seems to be a Lannister ( and friends z) trait! ( damn fat fingers)
I RRALLY want Serio to reappear...somehow...selfish of me I know....as well as J H. But I just don't think GRRM will go along with what I want!( damn him )
Rumor has it the new royal baby will be called Joffrey
Anna wrote: "does anyone else believe Varys maybe trying so hard to make Dany successful because she is bringing magic back into the world with her dragons? I know he claims to hate it but many times I feel it ..."I think that Varys if anything, is a Blackfyre. There's a quote in one of the books that history is like a wheel and repeats itself. What is that for if not to foreshadow another Blackfyre rebellion? Aegon is a Blackfyre, if not by birth than symbolically. I believe that Septa Lemore is his mother, perhaps Ashara Dayne? It's possible.
As for Varys's obsession with keeping the real Targs safe in this theory, he wants his Aegon to marry Dany so that if it was ever found out that Aegon is not a real Targ, then Dany would be his wife anyway. Which means he and Illiryo never really needed Viserys in the first place, and therefore planned Dany's marriage to Khal Drogo knowing that he would go with the khalasar and piss them off somehow to the point of killing him.
As for why Dany is bleeding, I don't believe it's her moon blood. The maegi said she wouldn't have a 'living' child, so whose to say she can't be pregnant and having a miscarriage? It would also explain the cramps she's had as well, and it was too much blood just to be a period.
Just spent the last hour r so reading through this amd loved it! As far as the show goes I didnt love it so I read the books to see what the big deal was and they have made me way more interested. I am still learning though and some of your knowledge is awesome. As far as the B + L theory goes I just think its not good, just because it cant be disproved doesnt mean its true. If it did happen it would be very unsatisfying.
I am very intrigued by the prophecies and dreams, like bran and hos father in the crypts, where I think jon will discover his fate, thats if martin hasn just killed him and gave us false hope. Do you guys think hes gone? I really hope he is saved because I cant see how the nights watch could survive after wile.being surronded by wildlings so.I hope he has been saved by ghost or tormund or maybe even mance. But I think how he didnt feel the fourth dagger means there was indeed a fourth blow.
I think also that sandor is the valonqar as he could defeat grregor and therefore kill cersei. But obviously jamie and tyrion are good candidates
Sorry this is long but I really wana hear what others think and I dont have any friends who have read the books. So just a few questions
Bran what is in store for him? Evil?
The Ramsey letter? Would he jus write a complete lie? Could.the noghts watch have wrote it? It just seems heartbreakingly true to me. As he knows about mance.
I hope someone can take the time to read and reply lol
Serena wrote: "Anna wrote: "does anyone else believe Varys maybe trying so hard to make Dany successful because she is bringing magic back into the world with her dragons? I know he claims to hate it but many tim..."I like all of this about Varys. I never really questioned his intentions as far as Daenerys is concerned. There are so many things to think about. And if Dany had a miscarriage it would support the prophecy theories. I've been hung up on the idea of Quentyn, the Riverlands, and The Mountain since finishing the fifth book. Now that Dany has been reintroduced to a Khalasar I can't helpy reminiscing about the first book and Drogo. I feel like all of these signs would be too much to ignore. I don't think George R.R. Martin would write any of these things coincidentally without realizing that we could connect them in such a way.
As for Tyrion being a good candidate for valonqar, it would be too obvious at this point, with Cersei thinking of him constantly as such. When does George ever hand-feed us such easy truths?
oh yea true i only mentioned him as a candidate. but i think it cluld be sandor. howevr do jamie and cersei have yo leave the world together? ecause I just think cerseis downfall is all to predictable also.
I'm hoping both of them live until the end, Jaime and Cersei, simply because she's so interesting. I think Sandor is a valid choice. Both brothers dead/believed dead, then one defeats the other.
yeah, but i cant see very many people living through the end lol love cerseis paranoia that comes across in the books. you have any thoights on jon or bran? im just interested in bran but i need someone to tell me its going to be all right with john lol. the letter also?
When talking about Winds of Winter, George accidentally revealed that Jon is (view spoiler). Hidden for anyone who doesn't want to know if he lived or not.And I don't mean I want Cersei to survive, I just want her to make it to the last book and have a really, really good death.
As for Bran, I haven't given much thought to him. I'm sort of bored with him to the point of not caring, sorry.
As far as the B + L theory goes I just think its not good, just because it cant be disproved doesnt mean its true. LOL! I know a lot of people hate it, but you just made my point exactly. People could easily say the same thing for L+R.
The most sturdy leg the theory has to stand on is one fact and one fact alone. That the Kingsgaurd stayed with Lyanna instead of going to Kings Landing to protect any of the heirs and they seem to still think they are honoring there oath.
I also love the dreams and prophecies, so rife for speculation which is the most enjoyable aspect to me. Have you read the stuff they have published on The Citadel at Westeros.org? I love reading it, it's really enjoyable if you can read it without taking it all to heart. It's just theories, but they pretty much compile all the best ones.
I never thought Jon would die. I suspect Martin will do something crazy with him though. My personal hope is that Jon will turn into an actual Other. Not a wight. I have this theory that is really out there and has very little by way of support, but I think the Starks have some connection to the Others. I started thinking about it after Bran and all them are hiding in the crypts, and then we hear that story about how every King or Lord of Winterfell simply must be buried in the crypts there and then they build a statue with an Iron Sword to lock there spirit inside so it doesn't come out again later. I think maybe when Stark's die they just turn into ice demons or something. LOL.
I don't know, it's hard to articulate. But also, when Bran has that dream about the heart of winter, it mentions Jon turning Pale and Hard and lying alone in a room. Might correlate.
Okay...now, to end extreme crackpottery.
Valonquar has so many candidates its outrageous. Could be Sandor. I like the idea of something epic involving Jaime, but someone pointed out the other day, that the prophecy says the Valonquar will wrap his hands around her neck, and Jaime cannot do that. Since he only has a Hand, not Hands. LOL. Now I'm kinda holding out and pushing for a Rickon return or, it would also be super awesome and kinda random if Reek killed her. LOL!
I don't think Bran can be evil necessarily. I think he will just be an outside contender now. He won't have as much ability to interact with the outside world becoming part of the trees like the Three Eyed Crow. He'll have to reach out in different ways through animals and nature. Though Bran has broken every rule of warging. Which I always find humurous.
Could Ramsay's letter be lie. I'm sorry, but I just started laughing when I read that. Of course it could be lie! This is Ramsay, he's a sociopath LOL! I would wager 70% of what he says is either lies or delusion. I don't believe all of it, but I think the stuff about Mance is true, he includes some truth to make people question there first reaction of him being full of shit in my opinion. LOL.
I also want Cersei to last til the Last book. I actually wouldn't be surprised at all if she ended up living. She's so paranoid crazy that she just might make it. LOL. I hate her character, but yes, it's written very well, I've been impressed with the way Martin wrote her to be so crazy in a believable way since I first read her POV chapters.
Also got bored with Bran myself. I only like his chapters for the world lore that gets revealed and the prophecies.
I enjoy Davos, Arya, and Jaime's POV's most. A lot of the main POV's have lost my interest though. Dany and Jon are right there with Bran in my opinion. I could have done without half of Dany's POV in the last couple of books sadly. Though I have enjoyed Samwell's POV chapters as well. I kinda always have a thing for side characters though.
Newbie here. Any thoughts on the possible relationship that may or may not exist between Dragons and wargs?
I think you are gonna have to be a little more specific. You want to know our opinions on Wargs using Dragons? Or Dragons not being able to be Warged?Most importantly though WELCOME!
Thanks for the welcome. I am interested in both. Can Dragons be warged, of course I am thinking of the Stark kids including Jon snow. In the story thus far there are two unclaimed/unridden dragons. Barn has seen dragons in his dreams or through his direwolf's eyes if i recall correctly.
oh never thought about the kigsguard. yea well I dont know about jon but I jus have a feeling that he may have been rescued. he did have an army of wildlings there and Tormund would help him as well as melisandre or possibly ghost. PS the starks needa start paying attention when there wlolves get angry lolyea danys last pov in theblatest book was horrible.
yeah there are a lot of yoinger brothers out there who could mess her up, my only theory for her early death is that this next book may be the end of the battle among the westerosi and shoft towards a battle for the survival of westeros and that may spell the end of cersei.
i would imagine it could be possible. however I would much prefer if that wasnt the case. I want to think the dragons respond to a person destined to ride them and not jus a warg, as any number of wildlings can just control them. Id like to believe that Jon being the prince that was promised and then maybe bran or tyrion would be the third head of the dragon. Even Aegon but he just seems to late an intro to be truly that important.
oh sorry going to post again im on my phone travelling so its hard to remember everything. I like the theory about the stark connection to the wights. I see where your coming from but I do just believe that this is a stark tradition with the bodies, and any dead body is susceptible to becoming a white walker so I dont believe theres a straight connection. it would make wi ter is coming alot more glorious than negative as a motto though. But we've seen the wights attack bran so there is no loyalty there, yet at least. I think somehow the destiny of Jon lys in the crypts at winterfell and he will discvoer what is fate is there, as safe to say hes now free from the watch. A thought on Stannis, I would love to see him get a good ending but I think it will more be a destiny of glorious death that awaits him, and a few others like ser barristan but theyl like that so its a comfort.
thanks for all the replies I really enjoy all these theories and cannot wait for the next book I wish it was realeased yesterday lol
I have no theories to add but I've enjoyed reading everyone's here, ESP Amber. Like Amber, I am totally bored with Bran except when I get to learn more folklore about the tree folks. I'm most interested in Arya's pov now. Such interesting things happening in the temple. I finished the books almost a year ago so now I'm fuzzy on the details. Will have to go back and reread books 3-5. Although I lent 1-4 to my brother and his girlfriend to read so it may be a long time before they return to me!
Also, I do not like Cersei (no surprise there!) but unlike Amber, I actually want her dead- a slow, painful, torturous death, like that she inflicted on others. I was so happy when Jaime refused to come to her aid. In a recent interview, Martin said many more will sit the Iron Throne before the end. And there will be an eventual "winner" in the game of thrones. I hope it's Dany, or another Targaryen.
I don't think there is anything to indicate it would impossible to warg a dragon, but I assume you would have to be ridiculously badass at warging.Plus, having no bond with the animal makes it even harder, a beast or person can actually fight the warg out of its mind, as seen by Thistle with Varamyr.
And Varamyr was the most developed Warg we've seen in the story. Bran is probably more powerful though, so if he really developed his ability and one of the dragons liked him maybe this might happen.
Depending on how good Rickon is, he could have a chance too. But I think the other Starks haven't practiced enough.
Thats my opinion anyway. Also, we don't know if reptiles can be warged, we've only got record of mammals being warged, so there is always that to think about as well.
Also @Colly - I don't think the Starks have connection to wights, I think they have connection to The Others. The Others are mythical and sensient beings, it's unknown what there origin is, but they only really surface near and during Winter. Wights are basically just ice zombies, they're controlled by The Others. I think it would be cool if Jon turned into an actual Other, with complete and total free will. Thats my crackpot for today. LOL!
Oh I missed that interview.And we totally just posted at the same time LOL! I was also totally happy when Jaime didn't go. I was like YES.
Osmond Kettleblack!? Moonboy! NEVER FORGET! LOL. Love Jaime, Hate Cersei. I could just see her staying alive for a long time though because she is smart and pretty. Deadly combination.
Having said that I want Cersei to live until the end, I was happy she was abandoned. I think this will make her especially crazy, and I'm looking forward to it.I suspect Melisandre will play a part in Jon's fate. Is he Azor Ahai, instead of Stannis? He always appears in her flames when she is looking for Azor. She thinks the flames won't show her what she is asking for but maybe they are.
really? I always thoifht they were the same thing, i gotta look this up and pay more attention thanks amber! you know your stuff. Yea when I read the jamie bit it was like ooooh! he better hooe cersei dies. I like jamie to I love that even though he has an evil streak in him like Tywin he has more of a merciful side. which may help him with brienne and her mistress lol Still think he will have trial by combat in that case
It really is kinda confusing. Took me a while to get how it all worked too. Lots of reading thats for damn sure. If you are interested you might start on the wiki and then follow the citations to the more clear spots in the novels, just for context. I also love Jaime, he is incredibly interesting, plus I just adore Anti-Heroes. I actually hated him until we got his POV chapters, then Martin basically bitch slapped me and I was in love. LOL. Even though what he does to Bran is awful, I can understand and see why he did it. He's not just some unreasonable bad guy, and his time with Brienne has changed him and reading that change was SO SO SO enjoyable for me. One of the best character builds I've ever read.
Jon to a free will wight? You mean like Uncle Benjen/Coldhands? I think Jon has a greater purpose though once he cools off in the ice for a bit.
well coldhands/uncle benjen? nothin is certain there yet. Yea well John is either going to be ressurected or saved I believe. His truth has to be uncovered if he is Azhor Ahai. With Martin I think we could see him die and not make a return for a wile. We ckuld still be discussing most of these Jon stories in 5 years
one character I havnt discussed here is stannis. possibly my favorite character, calm cool grumpy but extremely talented and a bad ass on the battle field. especiallt because I read the books after watchin the show he comes across way better. Pretty clear hes not Azor Ahai. So if he comes back from winterfell what will happen? Will he teach the nights watch a lesson, maybe that will.become his new duty but I cant see him leavong winterfell if he does win it.
And if he does and melisandre says oh looks like I made a mistake then how will he react? I cant see it going down to well, yeah theres always the chance that John may make him a general if he is AA but will Stannis suddenly just accept that after being told hes a saviour and if dany is AA then she will not take a baratheon with her. Any ideas on how Stan could react?
I thought Stannis died at the end of ADWD. Did I miss something?
Yep, you missed the excerpt that GRRM posted from Winds of Winter.It reveals that Stannis is alive.
@Andy - I mean like an actual Other, a White Walker. Thats why I consider it so crackpot.Here y'all go, I'm obviously confusing everyone. LOL
http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/...
http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/...
Coldhands is in my opinion a sentient Wight.
But that would be cool too. I could get with that. LOL.
Also @Colly, I freakin' LOVE Stannis. Is he always right? Hell no. But his story is interesting, he intrigues me so much. Plus I adore Davos. Hated Mel, til I got her POV just like Jaime. I hope Martin includes more of them in the future.
Celise wrote: "I thought Stannis died at the end of ADWD. Did I miss something?"Why do you think Stannis is dead? I never got that from the book :O
I think Jon has to have died and will be brought back by Melisandre thus freeing him from his oath to the nights watch.
So I was writing in a favorite character section & thought I'd move it over here because what I had to say about Arya might be a spoiler or is one for those who aren't up to date with the books. When I think of the future for her, I believe when Arya completes her training & becomes a faceless/many-faced assassin she will get her revenge on many but eventually she will get Sansa as a paid target, but her name won't be Sansa for whatever reason, to hide her identity currently, etc... so there will be some serious sibling drama & soul searching for the girl known as Arya when & if they meet... I think the wordplay & experiences she has with J'aquen Hagar is one of the best storylines within the books & Arya is by FAR one of the best characters. A girl who was always dismissed & had no power & dreamed of being a knight or at least fighting like one... If GRRM kills Arya and/or Danerys, I'm out... That will leave like 3-4 peeps I really care about that aren't dead. Any thoughts?
Nelson are you serious? Celise - Yeah well I thought he was gone to but it is ramsey bolton, so it may be made up.
Amber I dont think that chapter of theons doesnt mean that stannis is alive. It means that after the battle for "the high ground" he could have died. But I suppose ramsey said he wants his reek back, and stannis has reek so therefore it ckuld all be good unless reek escaped and ran north.
Yeah stannis is the man but if he is not AA then he would lose everything I just dont know. But he is headong towards a heroic death
Gordon I think alot of people like Arya despite her more recent stuff lacking in excitment. However your other theory maybe not as she cannot take revenge on people as she cannot kill anyone she knows the facless assasins arent allowed to so Id say being placed in kings landi g and resisting the urge to kill.cersei is more likely. she could however be sent to kill littlefinger and meet sansa that way. I dont know why sansa would be marked for death. however nymeria still lives so I think that arya will become the wolf again.
Nelson wrote: "Celise wrote: "I thought Stannis died at the end of ADWD. Did I miss something?"Why do you think Stannis is dead? I never got that from the book :O"
Theon is informed at the end by Bolton (I think) that Stannis has been defeated.
@Nelson - people believe Stannis is dead because of the letter Ramsay sent to Jon Snow in the end of DWD, Chapter 69 if you feel like looking, widely known by fans as The Bastard Letter.@Bill - I think that if Jon is this AA character, that will definitely happen. Sadly though, I feel torn on who I want that to be in the end. I kinda want it to be someone from House Dayne, and for Dawn to end up being the real lightbringer.
@Gordon - if you are ever in a thread and worried about spoilers you can use this html to hide it.
< spoiler > write whatever would be spoiled here
< / spoiler>
Just don't put any spaces in the brackets.
I enjoy Arya quite a bit as well. I don't know if she will always stick with the faceless men though, sometimes I think she just wants to learn there secrets then leave and do whatever she wants. LOL.
@Colly I always thought that the excerpt was suggesting that Stannis was alive, but I guess if the timeline works weird with Dance that way that Feast did, I could be wrong. It's hard to say, though it would be weird for Ramsay's letter to be true and then for us to have to sit through a narration of it from Reek as well. That is why I follow the line of thinking that Ramsay is a liar.
Amber wrote: "@Nelson - people believe Stannis is dead because of the letter Ramsay sent to Jon Snow in the end of DWD, Chapter 69 if you feel like looking, widely known by fans as The Bastard Letter.@Bill - I..."
Thanks Bill, I know some HTML but no means fluent lol, & I can totally see Arya learning & leaving... the Lone Wolf... She has revenge on the mind & things to do!
oh and gordan im pretty sure mel said that she and arya will meet again. so arya ckuld be due north
Well, I'm Amber, but I'll totally take the thanks. LOL!!You can see how to do a lot of it by clicking that little link above the comment box that says "some html is ok"
@Colly - I believe that was in the show not the books, but either way, it could be a pretty meaningless thing to say cannonwise. She thought that Karstark girl was Arya, and now she thinks that Jeyne Poole is Arya. She doesn't know what Arya looks like so it's hard for me to logically believe she could definitively say that she would meet her again.
Scenes like the one where (view spoiler) or the one where (view spoiler) are horrible in my opinion. They confuse people so much and its a constant chap on my personal ass. LOL.
Collymcl wrote: "oh and gordan im pretty sure mel said that she and arya will meet again. so arya ckuld be due north"Melisandre has yet to meet Arya in the books, or Gendry.
Celise wrote: "Nelson wrote: "Celise wrote: "I thought Stannis died at the end of ADWD. Did I miss something?"Why do you think Stannis is dead? I never got that from the book :O"
Theon is informed at the end b..."
Oh, ok. I didn't trusted in that report it seems xD defeated doesn't mean certain death specially in theses books.
Yeah, sorry everybody :( it seems everybody though Stannis was dead. I didn't interpreted that way. Specially when for me that letter from "Ramsay" is completely fake. And well on other matters I always like to believe that "Lightbringer" is the Night's Watch :) I find it cool. But if it ends up being "Dawn" oh well... I won't complain I just hope Darkstar has something to do with it.
Nah, its a fair interpretation Nelson. I just thought maybe you forgot about the letter. Honestly, I was dragging through that part myself like STFU please. So I wasn't so clear on what happened at the end until my second read through LOL. Thought maybe something similar might have happened with you. But not believing Ramsay's letter is completely legitimate in my opinion. He's a sociopath for goodness sake, it's actually a bit amusing that so many people did believe it, including myself. LOL
Yah, I like that theory about the Night's Watch too, fits really well for a new lightbringer. But I imagine that the original was an actual sword, considering the origin story. Stabbing your wife to death with hundreds of celibate men just seems unlikely. :))
HaHaHa yes, but from the symbolic point of view it would be awesome that the Night's Watch were the ones who are destined to defeat the Others, not just a Magic Sword. and maybe just maybe that's the why of the whole celibate thing.Of course that's just because for me Jon is AA. Dany no way D: but well... we'll see.
I didn't think he was dead either Nelson. I'm working on a re-read, so I'll pay attention to that part.
But yeah. I'm not going to take a Ramsey Bolton letter on faith for anything.
Great! I'm not alone :D I'm not even sure that letter is from Ramsay himself! that's my level of paranoid xD
I'm on my iPhone so things can be more of a pain, thanks Amber :) I see the hyperlink sweeet, I also saw, well I think it was ur comment on liking Jamie, anti-hero stuff, I totally picking up what ur puttin down, he needed to be humbled, & boy did he... BUT, now forged thru gimpness, reality of his situation, & fire (his gold hand, which I can see him smashing heads with), captain of kings guard where Barriston last served, he's gonna learn to fight lefty with Payne & not tech be a 'good' guy, just a great POV.. He obv. Bluffs well, when he turned sir Trant or Blount into a food taster by bluffing left handed skills he didn't have when the knight protested, Jamie don't give a friggin F, plus he's ruthless, I'm surprised only cuz I've read high born knights generally learn ambidextrous swordplay if they grow up in rich family, either way, u can tell JL thinks he wasted much of his life & ready to bust heads once he's a good lefty, he'd have advantage too, most peeps are rightyAnyways, Arya is no joke, she's deaf now right? 1st blind, now deaf? & Danaerys is also ready to fly into battle on drogo, she's gotta find 2 other riders the dragons would accept no? Or she just gonna be solo flying with the other 2, or perhaps her nephew? Cousin? Will join forces? Like I said if GRRM kills any of those 3, the book is gonna lose some luster to me
oh I LIKE that one! Out the WI Dow seems to be a Lannister solution!