Valar Morghulis--Valar Dohaeris discussion
A Song of Ice and Fire
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Theories & Speculations: SPOILERS for all books
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Nermin
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Jun 01, 2013 09:16AM
No, there's a guy named Rhaegar Frey as well, he was only mentioned in the book 4 or five just a few times.
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Andy wrote: "A better theory is Lyanna ran off with Rhaegar and was not abducted. The great promise by Ned is to never admit Jon is a Targaryen for fear of Roberts wrath and I personally believe he is the true Aegon (his is the song of ice and fire)."If Melissandre brings him back from his presumed death, he would have died by ice and been reborn by fire.
My favorite theory is that the Hound would eventually become the Faith's champion against Cersei's Robert Strong.
Jiro wrote: "My favorite theory is that the Hound would eventually become the Faith's champion against Cersei's Robert Strong."That would be fun. One of the least likely theories I've ever heard, but a fun one nonetheless :)
Is it odd that a transition from Gregor Clegane to Robert Strong actually makes him less evil?
Gregor was the Mountain of Evil - so it makes perfect sense.We don't even have evidence that Robert Strong is evil. He's more like a programmed robot.
Exactly. It was a personality upgrade.
Has anyone stated that the "younger and more beautiful, to cast down" Cersei will be Dany? Its seems pretty obvious to me. That the one she thinks (Margaery) is the wrong one (classic Cersei)
Also, Jon Snow is the third dragon head and opposite of what was the first 3 dragons:1 Leader Man (Aegon) + 2 Women with him (Visenya and Rhaenys)
vs
1 Leader Woman (Dany) + 2 Men with her (new Aegon and Jon Snow)
I prefer Dany, Jon Snow and Tyrion. I think little Aegon is a fake
I don't think Tyrion will be one of the heads based on the warning given to Dany by the Quaithe."The glass candles are burning. Soon comes the pale mare, and after her the others. Kraken and dark flame, lion and griffin, the sun's son and the mummer's dragon. Trust none of them. Remember the Undying. Beware the perfumed seneschal.”
Guessing that Tyrion would be the lion.
If Aegon is the mummers dragon then who would be the 3rd head?
I was joking. Never assume my theories have basis.What do you think the three heads mean?
This prophecy could mean so many things; I haven't seen one completely convincing theory. I'm not even 100% sure Dany is one of them.
I think we need book 6...
Andy wrote: "If Aegon is the mummers dragon then who would be the 3rd head?"I'm still routing for Gendry. Theres a bit of imagery surrounding him thats interesting, he has Targaryen blood for sure, it would explain why keeps making apperances in the books, and why no one mentions he is Robert's bastard to him. Potentially, Dany could get to know him before finding out he is related to the man who had a hand in slautering her entire family, and I really don't think Gendry is going to stick with the brotherhood much longer considering there new leader is a bloodthirsty psychopathic zombie woman.
His great grandmother was a Targaryen....hadn't considered him before now.
Indeed.I like to think GRRM tries to keep him in the background so people will think he isn't important and he can be like..."BLAM!" right at the end and everyone will be like...oh yah, forgot about his ass. LOL
if Gendry has Targaryen blood then so does Mya Stone and Edric Storm and Stannis and his daughter. so what does make Gendry so special that he should be one of the dragon riders?
Duh, he's cuter.LOL.
I think what makes him more likely, is he wouldn't know where that blood came from. As opposed to all the others who know they are Baratheon's. (I think Mya mentioned that didnt she?)
Dany wouldn't ride with any Baratheon if she could avoid it, since she pretty much sees them as her enemy.
It's all wishful thinking, we can't even really narrow it down if we want to be honest with ourselves, Martin has said that being a Targaryen really isn't necessary to ride a dragon.
Now I don't know if he said that because any old Valyrian family could potentially have the power to do so, or because literally anyone can do it.
What about the Darkstar Gerold Dayne as one of the heads. He has the whole Valyrian look with the silver hair and purple eyes. Arianne Martell says he is the best looking guy in Dorne. He also has tried to kill Myrcella so he has proven he is against the Lannisters.
Exactly, Bill. The Targaryen stain of inbreeding is hard to side-step. My vote is for The DarkStar. I just hope GRRM doesn;t have him hooking up with Dany, or there will be extra fingers and even worse as a result! Make Joffrey look like a wise intellectual.
Chris wrote: "Is it odd that a transition from Gregor Clegane to Robert Strong actually makes him less evil?"maybe because hes been "fondled" by Qyburn. that's why.
Uh, I live this thread! Looking forward to read it more in full next time I sit by a computer. I am amazed by all the details that you guys remember of the various tomes!
I do wonder about how the next two tomes will unfold, I find ASOIAF quite difficult to predict: once you think that you got it all figured out them BAMM! GRRM does the unpredicted, so who knows, really?
Personally, I think that Jon Snow will end up on the Iron Throne - since we first encountered him he's been the underdog par excellence, so it would make sense.
It makes sense if it turns out that Varys could be a Targaryen, it would certainly explain his motivation, but then again why wouldn't he play a more active role in helping Daenerys to the throne - after all her claim to it is strong.
I don't know if Varys is a Targaryen but his ass is up to something with Illyrio.Think about it, they've had nearly unlimited access to three Targaryen's almost the entire life of the story, they hadn't expected Viserys to get killed really. I wonder what there ultimate plan was keeping Aegon away from Dany and Viserys all this time.
I know a lot of people don't believe Aegon is THE Aegon, but I don't know, I haven't read a lot of evidence that supports the theory other than, people just think its stupid. LOL.
I think Aegon flies a black dragon on a red field in the end.
like it was stated before,aegon is the mummers dragon. varys had to keep him seperate frm the true targaryens. varys and illyrio groomed "aegon" to be a great king. even when varys is describing him, he explains how aegons upbringing will make him the best king, but never mentions anything about birthright. theres evidence supporting that aegon is most likely from the blackfyre female line, which is why varys was banking on the golden company fighting for aegon."some oaths are writ in ink and some in blood". another reason that i highly doubt aegon for being a dragon head is because its just simply too obvious. GRRM kills characters left and right for the fuck of it and no one can seem to predict when it will happen or not. the dragon riders that will conquer westeros is a big part of the series, what makes you think he would let it be so predictable?
If memory serves she asks Ned how could she trust someone who took the vows and all that so lightly. Only she was really talking about the Prince. She was clearly (in my opinion) sleeping with him and in love and I assume offering to leave his wife, which is why she was crying, but she was unsure if she could trust him. So after Ned failed so spectacularly to comfort her she turned down the Prince who really really wanted the women he loved.John kept the secret because if ANYONE ever found out then Jon would have been killed to make sure he never made challenge for the Throne. Ned's little sis makes him promise to never let anyone kill him because who his father is, what would you do? Ned sure as heck would never risk it by telling anyone not even Cat.
I think Bran almost figured out the truth when he sees what that tree saw when Ned was preying about Jon. I think eventually that will be how it comes out or something close. Maybe sam at the Citadel finds it out from that glass candle.
I am also not sold that Conningtons little bastard is really the prince kid. I think Varys and others like having backup plans. It has been established that the hair and eyes are found in other family. I forget what family was mentioned specifically.
Also if people remember the Prince was not always a warrior and the such, he found something in his books that made him change overnight. His becoming a warrior he what brought him to Neds sis. Maybe he found a prophecy of some sort that convinced him he would find his true love and mother of his heir if he changed his path.
Also let us look at Johns character. Both Lyanna + Brandon have been described as hot blooded and rash. John could not be any further from that then any other person in all the world. His character is more like the Prince. Just his demeanor and how he carry's himself. No chance in in hell that Brandon is his dad.
Amanda wrote: "Andy wrote: "A better theory is Lyanna ran off with Rhaegar and was not abducted. The great promise by Ned is to never admit Jon is a Targaryen for fear of Roberts wrath and I personally believe h..."His father Fire and mother Ice coming together. His rumored father being a singer, just saying.
Jiro wrote: "My favorite theory is that the Hound would eventually become the Faith's champion against Cersei's Robert Strong."I would love that. He always gets bashed and assumed evil because of his brother. If he got to defeat his brother and bring the end of arrogant incompetent queen well that would be amazing.
Santi wrote: "Has anyone stated that the "younger and more beautiful, to cast down" Cersei will be Dany? Its seems pretty obvious to me. That the one she thinks (Margaery) is the wrong one (classic Cersei)"Yeah I been screaming that theory since I first heard that prophecy.
Amber wrote: "Andy wrote: "If Aegon is the mummers dragon then who would be the 3rd head?"I'm still routing for Gendry. Theres a bit of imagery surrounding him thats interesting, he has Targaryen blood for su..."
Cat was those things before she died. I always hated her. One of those people that without her last name would not know or be able to survive. Always high and mighty, can never be wrong, a massive hypocrite who jumps to conclusions.
Nermin wrote: "if Gendry has Targaryen blood then so does Mya Stone and Edric Storm and Stannis and his daughter. so what does make Gendry so special that he should be one of the dragon riders?"He grew up not dissimilar then Dany. He was not pampered or given special treatment. He ad to fight to survive. He brings knowledge of Kings landing and how badly people have it with him to the table when he Jon and Dany take power. Just as Jon brings knowledge and consideration of the North who we all know don't like the south much in part because they got no representation. Dany is the undeniable Dragon who brings the actual dragons and legitimacy to the Gendry and Hon.
Bill wrote: "What about the Darkstar Gerold Dayne as one of the heads. He has the whole Valyrian look with the silver hair and purple eyes. Arianne Martell says he is the best looking guy in Dorne. He also has ..."It is theory that another Dayne is the mother of the fake Dragon. That her death was faked or at very least her childs. That if the fake dragon is real that her son was born and switched with him thus why she killed herself. Personally I think she is alive and with her son the fake dragon and she is posing as the septa. Also I though a Dayne was guarding Johns rumored mother at the Prince orders. Would it not be a leap that one Dayne told another Dayne that the Prince and the Wolfe had a child. Would help explain how people find out.
Rita wrote: "Uh, I live this thread! Looking forward to read it more in full next time I sit by a computer. I am amazed by all the details that you guys remember of the various tomes!
I do wonder about how t..."
Only been reading a few months but after figured out Ned was not nor ever meant to be the central character I found extremely easy to predict. Not one thing Cersi related since Neds death that I did not predict long before happened.
Amber wrote: "I don't know if Varys is a Targaryen but his ass is up to something with Illyrio.Think about it, they've had nearly unlimited access to three Targaryen's almost the entire life of the story, they..."
His mother is the Dayne girl and the Daynes have the same features the Targ's have. So they saw a chance for power. Use her kid as a stand in for the dead baby. He grows up he looks Targ, no one could say with 100% certainty one way or another. I just don't think he is really a Targ. At first I was on board but something about it felt off. I kept getting drawn to Dayne her kid that supposedly died at birth and her apparent suicide though no body was recovered as well as no father named.
Also please forgive me if some of my details are a bit out of order as I don't have a great memory and things tend to get jumbled up.
David wrote: "Also please forgive me if some of my details are a bit out of order as I don't have a great memory and things tend to get jumbled up. "Forgiven, and welcome to the forum :)
Dany either has the bloody flocks or it is really her moon blood. It better be her moon blood!
Anna wrote: "Dany either has the bloody flocks or it is really her moon blood. It better be her moon blood!"Why can't it simply be an infection from her burns? maybe something wrong with the water? Mayhaps her subconscious is tired of her making every wrong choice possible and is fighting back.
I don't think Jo dies, even temporarily. I figure Meli put some kind of preemptive hocus on him since she kept seeing his death for months, she just did not understand it till a day before it happened.Also I find it hilarious. Meli keeps demanding visions of the guy reborn whose name eludes me but she just keeps getting visions of Snow. I find it hilarious that with a man named Snow near her that she can't put 2 and 2 together. She assumed Stanis (wrongly so) and some people assume Dany(again wrongly so) when it is Jon and that red god keeps trying to show her.
Jessica wrote: "Dany can no longer have children, the Witch who she burned with Kal Drogo said so."Thats another thing. Why are we believing or at very east taking so literal what the lieing spiteful witch lady says? At the very least I think we need to not look at her words so literal. All those things she said could easily be people doing things. Course when witch tells her how to break curse she would word it in way that makes it seem impossible.
Jessica wrote: "What if breaking the curse has something to do with riding the dragons?"Until the sun rises in the west and sets in the east. Until the rivers run dry, and the mountains blow in the wind like l..."
We have already seen how Sun has referred to Dorne. Mountains could have to do with The mountain and his brother who seem headed to battle. Rivers perhaps refers to the Tulleys. Only 1 left and lords only know where the Blackfish is.
GRRM seems to really like symbolism and gives us plenty of clues if we know how to read them and don't take things so literally.
Well, some fans thinkUntil the Sun rises in the West and sets in the East
Refers to the death of (view spoiler)
Until the Rivers run dry
Refers to the fact the Riverlords have been overthrown
And The Mountains blow in the wind like leaves
Is reference to the death of (view spoiler) or something like that.
So...theres some food for thought.
Also - No Gendry cannot be Robert and Cersei's son, that only happens in the show, not the novels. In the novels Cersei has an abortion, (and trust me, you don't survive medieval abortions) she only gives actual birth three times.
Also...you do know that Jon Snow is also in the North...so thats not really a very good reason for Bran not to Warg a dragon. I think the better reason would be he's kinda occupied with trees. Anywho - all the Stark children are wargs, yes, even Sansa and Robb.
Also Also...LOL...No, Dragons are not bound to the blood of Targaryen's, Targaryen's are Valyrians, Valyrians use blood magic, blood magic works with dragons. Anyone with enough valyrian blood could potentially ride a dragon, GRRM has said that you do not need to be a Targaryen to ride one even.
Could Jon physically marry Dany...sure. Will that be frowned upon...likely, he made an oath, he's already broken it once, it'd look pretty bad if he did it again. I would also think that Dany would have plenty to say on the front of ANOTHER arranged marriage. I don't see that working out unless the two actually fall in love.
I didn't think it up, just read it, but I liked it too LOL!Fits with her other prophecy a bit too, the one about not trusting the mummers dragon or the sun's son, blah blah blah.
Yeah, it was really actually starting to annoy me how obsessed Dany is with believing that was a literal, and true, prophecy.I love the theory about mothers dying while giving birth = dragon rider! It could be a sort of blood magic that was passively transferred to the babies.
And speaking of babies, while Amber's theory was elaborate and awesome, for me it doesn't work based on one simple fact: there is a BIG difference bewteen an 8/9mo baby and a 11/12mo one. Even if the older one is small and the younger one big - when it comes to motor skills and cognitive development etc, any mother with a brain in her head would know the difference between two healthy, normal babes in that age range.
I am not Catelyn's biggest fan, but nothing suggests that she would have not noticed which one was actually older! In fact, given how obsessed she was with the idea that Eddard had stepped out on her, she would have been the first person to call that bluff.
does anyone else believe Varys maybe trying so hard to make Dany successful because she is bringing magic back into the world with her dragons? I know he claims to hate it but many times I feel it is suggested that he might possess some magic powers as well
Anna, I haven't re-read in a while, but I feel like hbo Varys is much more anti-magic than book Varys was, so I don't really believe that his motive is based on that.
